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Mickle5125
How does skinlink work? do you hook it up to every piece of equipment that you want to use it, or do you just buy it once and put it on your comlink?
Jaid
QUOTE (Mickle5125 @ May 5 2008, 07:58 PM) *
How does skinlink work? do you hook it up to every piece of equipment that you want to use it, or do you just buy it once and put it on your comlink?

it's for each individual piece of equipment.

it basically allows you to use your skin as a network cable, but only stuff that is designed to use skinlink can connect.
Fortune
You add it to everything you want to interact with. You also need to add it to something like a Datajack or Trode Net to actually interact with the gear.
CanRay
Personally, I cap the number of pieces of equipment that work at once to one or two at a time. MAYBE three.

I describe it as turning the human body into a network cable and hub. Once you get too many pieces of equipment going, crosstalk will screw it up.

Luckily, I deal with computer guys who agree with me 100%.
Cthulhudreams
I assume it works like optical fibre and has an ATM style transmission protocol. So the clocks synch, and you can multiplex 8 or more seperate channels together onto one medium (like optical fibre) and then you can multiplex multiple data streams into each channel (like ATM), giving you lots of device options.

I guess I'm a networking engineering guy and disagree with you nyahnyah.gif
CanRay
That assumes the Human Skin works like a Fibre Optic line. nyahnyah.gif

And, as stated, that's just my own personal house rule. That's just me, you do your thing, and we argue about it on the IntraTubez! wink.gif
Cthulhudreams
Oh yeah, just pointing out that an uncapped number of devices is probably exactly as reasonable as capping it. Even with the hub concept, using something more efficent than a contention model - say preallocated segements like ATM - would allow for many devices.

It's just a question of what you think max potential throughput is, and I'm assuming it can be positively vast thus there is no meaningful constraint, and you obviously think its quite low, thus there is a meaningful constraint. Either interpretation is as good as the other I guess.
CanRay
All depends on how you want to run your game, exactly.

...

Hey, we agreed to our differences, and solved things in a fair manner.

...

WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO THE INTERNET??? Am I in Bizarro World???
Mickle5125
... disagreeing opinions didn't turn into a 5 page argument?

Settle your debts, omae. The world's coming to an end!
Jaid
QUOTE (Mickle5125 @ May 5 2008, 08:42 PM) *
... disagreeing opinions didn't turn into a 5 page argument?

Settle your debts, omae. The world's coming to an end!

well, there's only one way to solve this...

i think that shadowrun guns are completely realistic, and accurately reflect how guns are used in real life....


*runs away to find cover*
Mordinvan
Skin link is a good idea, but the real question is, can you dikote it?
kanislatrans
QUOTE (CanRay @ May 5 2008, 07:34 PM) *
All depends on how you want to run your game, exactly.

...

Hey, we agreed to our differences, and solved things in a fair manner.

I am in shock and tried to breathe coffee!! You two go to your rooms this instance! And don't come out until you learn how to argue endlessly about every slight disagreement, real or imagined! wobble.gif wobble.gif Some people have Hez the size of Juggernauts to bring such behavior here!! spin.gif spin.gif Why, I feel dirty just reading it! rotate.gif rotate.gif
Sir_Psycho
Skinlinke makes me sad. I like fiber-optic cables. They were so romantic. Even Ghost in the Shell had cables.
DocTaotsu
*Boggles*

Is... everyone feeling alright? Did the IPS error a couple of days ago actually insert some sort of proto psychotropic IC that has suddenly made people reasonable?! TELL ME! Do you suddenly have an urge to turn yourself in to Renraku? Strange metaphoric dreams?! There is help!

I really don't miss fiberoptic cables. I do miss the implanted smartlink though. Before SR4 it was pretty much my do everything generic interface. I always figured that people would have software that'd use the precoded smartlink commands (eject clip, designate target, etc) to do other cool things... like turn on your pocket secretary or set the fuse on specially modified grenades.

Ah the good old days.
DreadPirateKitten
QUOTE (DocTaotsu @ May 6 2008, 12:12 AM) *
*Boggles*

Is... everyone feeling alright? Did the IPS error a couple of days ago actually insert some sort of proto psychotropic IC that has suddenly made people reasonable?! TELL ME! Do you suddenly have an urge to turn yourself in to Renraku? Strange metaphoric dreams?! There is help!

I really don't miss fiberoptic cables. I do miss the implanted smartlink though. Before SR4 it was pretty much my do everything generic interface. I always figured that people would have software that'd use the precoded smartlink commands (eject clip, designate target, etc) to do other cool things... like turn on your pocket secretary or set the fuse on specially modified grenades.

Ah the good old days.


[img]http://users.eastlink.ca/~dreadpiratecat/Shadowrun/duty_calls.jpg[/img]
DocTaotsu
Not the good old days or a totally retarded use of the implanted smartlink pad?
Fortune
QUOTE (DreadPirateKitten @ May 6 2008, 02:00 PM) *
[img]http://users.eastlink.ca/~dreadpiratecat/Shadowrun/duty_calls.jpg[/img]


Linkage for the lazy.

Image posting has been permanently disabled on Dumpshock. wink.gif
Oracle
QUOTE (CanRay @ May 6 2008, 02:17 AM) *
I describe it as turning the human body into a network cable and hub. Once you get too many pieces of equipment going, crosstalk will screw it up.


Hm. Is there any reason why there can't be a multi access protocol like CSMA/CD or CSMA/CA used with the skinlink protocol? CSMA/CA, which is used for WiFi access, seems to work just fine with a skinlink-like technology. Of course the bandwith of the skinlink will be shared by all devices. But considering 2070s compression and data transmission technologies that shouldn't be too much of a problem.

I don't see balancing reasons for nerfing skinlink. There are obviously no "realism issues" with it. So why houserule it?

I do not want to start an argument. I'm just interested in any points I might have missed.
CanRay
I'm nerfing it because I game with Computer Geeks that would utilize it in various techniques that would be very broken.

Or sick, twisted, devient methods that I don't even wish to consider. nyahnyah.gif

Also, if you get EVERYTHING Skinlinked, there goes the Wireless PAN. They'd just burn the wireless unit out of everything they own (Save their commlink) and skinlink everything.

Which I've suggested for "DataBoxers", actually, but that's a different thread.
Ciryx
From a realism standpoint I don't see why it couldn't work. With all the technologies everyone has already listed, we can also add in Port Addressing Technology. I would assume that each type of device has a standard "port" much like network communications does today. Since pretty much all hardware now runs software, it could be assumed that each device uses a specific port on your commlink. If this is the case, the only issue left IS bandwidth. That is not going to be something easily decided on though. Since it specifially states that the touchlink implant is located in your lower back, it can be assumed that this is because it ties into the spinal column and connects to the central nervous system throughout your spine. At that point it would be safe to say you can have nearly unlimited devices. If you think about it, when you prick your finger, does your entire arm hurt? No. In fact, just about every square centimeter of your skin has it's own nerve receptors. You could have as many devices as you could come into physical contact with. Couple that with PAT and you could have clear communication between all the skinlinked devices and your commlink without coming close to clogging your bandwidth. Your commlink would be dead and useless from all the registered connections before you ran out of skin to use.

This is, of course, all non-official, just the opinions of a network admin.


EDIT: Clarified the fact that I was refering to the touchlink implant.
cryptoknight
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ May 5 2008, 06:32 PM) *
Oh yeah, just pointing out that an uncapped number of devices is probably exactly as reasonable as capping it. Even with the hub concept, using something more efficent than a contention model - say preallocated segements like ATM - would allow for many devices.


Basic Ethernet allows more than 3 devices on a hub.. smile.gif and I really doubt they'd go back to hub technology... skinlink should work more like a switch.
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (CanRay @ May 6 2008, 12:41 PM) *
I'm nerfing it because I game with Computer Geeks that would utilize it in various techniques that would be very broken.

Or sick, twisted, devient methods that I don't even wish to consider. nyahnyah.gif

Also, if you get EVERYTHING Skinlinked, there goes the Wireless PAN. They'd just burn the wireless unit out of everything they own (Save their commlink) and skinlink everything.

Which I've suggested for "DataBoxers", actually, but that's a different thread.

You can still wire everything up underneath your clothes (or over, if you're a techno-fetishist), I don't see skinlink as more useful than a good gargoyle rig except for the fact that it's less constricting.
Nightwalker450
I'd just run them on basic subscriptions. Your commlink can only communicate to so many, others might not need to go through your commlink (ie goggles -> smartgun)

If its a matter of skinlinking a DNI and using that to communicate with devices.. I don't know, but really I don't see any problem with having them all skinlinked, afterall you're limited to actions you can perform anyways.

Just a note: Please in Unwired can technomancers have a natural Skinlink to their internal commlink? I hate having to skinlink a trode net just to interact with other skinlink devices nyahnyah.gif
hobgoblin
QUOTE (cryptoknight @ May 6 2008, 05:31 PM) *
Basic Ethernet allows more than 3 devices on a hub.. smile.gif and I really doubt they'd go back to hub technology... skinlink should work more like a switch.



hub, wireless or skinlink is more or less the same as all are broadcast systems.

a switch on the other hand is smart, as it only forwards the traffic to the port it should go to, not every damn port (potenially including the one that originally sent it).
cryptoknight
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ May 6 2008, 02:13 PM) *
hub, wireless or skinlink is more or less the same as all are broadcast systems.

a switch on the other hand is smart, as it only forwards the traffic to the port it should go to, not every damn port (potenially including the one that originally sent it).



Well... If I go to Starbucks... It's a good bet they have more than 3 laptop users plugged in and using the wireless matrix today...
Rotbart van Dainig
Skinlink is a misnomer, anyway:

Those systems modulate the EM-field of the human body...
Cabral
QUOTE (Ciryx @ May 6 2008, 10:15 AM) *
Since it specifially states that the implant is located in your lower back, it can be assumed that this is because it ties into the spinal column and connects to the central nervous system throughout your spine.

I think you're thinking of the implant that allows you to feed in the skin's sensory information (ie, to a biomonitor).

A skinlink is not an implant in its own right.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (cryptoknight @ May 6 2008, 11:48 PM) *
Well... If I go to Starbucks... It's a good bet they have more than 3 laptop users plugged in and using the wireless matrix today...



true, but as more people hook up, the less bandwidth will be available for each. but for ease of play this is left out of SR4, and i can understand why. perhaps they will add a optional rule for it in unwired, time will tell.
Cthulhudreams
I think discussing the actual operating parameters of some technology that some guy just made up in a paragraph is a plan destined to futility.

I'm not sure that unlimited devices on skinlink really has an undesirable gameplay effect, aside form helping to enable 'opt out' which is detrimental to the system as a whole, but can be achieved with cable.
CanRay
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ May 6 2008, 06:31 PM) *
true, but as more people hook up, the less bandwidth will be available for each. but for ease of play this is left out of SR4, and i can understand why. perhaps they will add a optional rule for it in unwired, time will tell.

The way I described the Wireless System in Shadowrun is that, in the nice areas of town, there's a Broadband Transciever on every streetlight, which connects to a backbone that runs under the street (And has been there since it got wired in after the Crash of 2029. Fiber-Optics didn't get fried during Crash 2.0, just the equipment.).

In the worse areas of town, it's more haphazard, so you're not as likely to get a good signal, have to share the connection, and so on.

In the worst areas of town, you're driving around, hoping to get a single bar before the gangers catch up with you...

My group liked that description.
hobgoblin
sounds like static and dead zones to me wink.gif (p210 SR4)
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ May 7 2008, 12:31 AM) *
true, but as more people hook up, the less bandwidth will be available for each. but for ease of play this is left out of SR4, and i can understand why. perhaps they will add a optional rule for it in unwired, time will tell.

Except that mesh networking removes the bottleneck at the access point - not entirely, but for local wireless-to-wireless access there's only a bottleneck so much as the wireless topography creates it, it's not inherent in the design. The more densely packed the devices, the larger (on average) the number of possible routes to the target and hence the faster the routing of data. In the same way that the more wired networking hardware you interlink the faster the throughput of the entire network as redundant paths to the endpoint are available.

The denser the networking hardware, the lower the signal power needed to reach the next node and thus the less interference and crosstalk. Some resonant situations may occur, however, but they can be avoided by adding radio absorbant materials into the environment such that the resonation is disrupted.

For skinlink, this means that the more skinlink devices (every device forwards, remember) you have on your body the higher your skinlink bandwidth becomes. Admittedly the fact that your PAN is subscribed to your Commlink means that you end up with the bottle neck problem again, but additional connection points for your commlink in different locations will help handle that situation. Some skinlink studs in various places will keep the crosstalk low by reducing the distance traversed between nodes - localised electrical fields are going to have signal degradation due to the fact that the modulation has to spread and the biological systems are going to restore the field so the communication distance is theoretically controllable.

Sometimes knowing networking is a little bit useful.
Siege
QUOTE (Jaid @ May 6 2008, 12:56 AM) *
well, there's only one way to solve this...

i think that shadowrun guns are completely realistic, and accurately reflect how guns are used in real life....


*runs away to find cover*


Ahem.

Nazis!

-Siege
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ May 7 2008, 04:08 AM) *
Sometimes knowing networking is a little bit useful.



indeed, i must admit that mesh networking is not a area i have looked much into, traditional networks are more my thing...
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ May 7 2008, 03:27 AM) *
indeed, i must admit that mesh networking is not a area i have looked much into, traditional networks are more my thing...

Mesh networking is just a dynamically reforming conventional network. That is to say that it works like any other network except that some of the routing tricks need to change to reflect the fact that connections between nodes can change without warning. Everything else is just the same as a normal network. The same old factors apply when you add nodes.

The big issue is that everyone, used to the way things are commonly implemented right now, assumes that wireless means an access point infrastructure and therefore that there's a big bottleneck.
hobgoblin
so basically one only transmit as much signal as is needed to reach ones nearest "partner", and then let it again connect to its partner(s) and so on? kinda interesting, and should indeed cut down on interference as more "nodes" come into range.

i can see the need for static accessid's under such a system, as having ones device dynamically change address each time it reconfigures its routing will be a problem. so for something like this to work on a global scale one needs something like IP6, at least.
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ May 7 2008, 03:57 AM) *
so basically one only transmit as much signal as is needed to reach ones nearest "partner", and then let it again connect to its partner(s) and so on? kinda interesting, and should indeed cut down on interference as more "nodes" come into range.

i can see the need for static accessid's under such a system, as having ones device dynamically change address each time it reconfigures its routing will be a problem. so for something like this to work on a global scale one needs something like IP6, at least.

A session-persistant identifier, sure. I don't think that a static ID is actually necessary. Though the fact that reconfiguring the identifier will increase collisions and cause some problems reaching you is a pain, but the internet deals with those things relatively well enough already.

There are additional routing considerations beyond how close something is physically, but it's certainly an important factor in the decision. Alongside that there will be, at least, number of hops (minimising network distance) and battery usage (for mobile devices, at least). You do, however, restrict your signal strength to that needed to reasonably guarantee reaching your next hop, though. It boosts network throughput by reducing the amount of crosstalk and interference, and the weaker the signals being used the lower the induced noise as well.

Finally the R^-2 signal strength means that you need to seriously boost energy to transmit the signal farther, hence lower signal strengthes saves energy.
hobgoblin
i have messed around with cisco equipment and feel somewhat up to speed on those protocols for automatic routeing table generation. number of hops, speed of connections and so on would have a whole lot of impact on the choice of nodes to route thru, thats for sure.

it also make the signal rating fairly redundant unless you only want to have your devices talk to other devices directly, like for example a rigger and his drones. and at that point the retransmission equipment comes into play.

so if one have a team of runners that do not maintain any matrix links, use stealth mode, skinlink their gear, and maintain com silence unless the proverbial troll-drek hits the fan, they should be nicely stealthy while on a job imo.

as in, while one may carry around a comlink that can hit signal 9+, it will for all practical terms drop to signal 0 if nothing more is needed.
Seraph Kast
So, here's a kinda side-question that's been poking up in this thread...why do people seem worried that their players are going to skinlink everything and shut off their wireless totally. In certain situations, yeah, it seems likely, but having your commlink able to talk to everyone elses is important. For instance, if you're infiltrating a site, and everyone is together, or you worked out timing carefully beforehand, it seems like it'd be a good idea for everyone, or almost everyone barring the team hacker or something, to shut down their wireless, to help avoid detection.

OTOH, this isn't always going to be possible. If you have anyone separated from the group, you basically need to have someone able to talk to them via the comm. In situations where you're not in a barrens, you're actually more likely to draw attention by having your wireless completely off, rather than in passive or active mode. Plus by shutting down into skinlink only mode, you lose any benefit you might gain from having a teammate "spotting" for the group with AR target marking, etc.

Just seems like people are awfully worried over a valid tactic with some rather pointed limitations; but I could be overlooking something, I guess.
Cthulhudreams
People Make this setup

Gear -> 'Real Commlink' that never leaves hidden -> Response 1 'dummy commlink' that they use for being in a regular area.

Any sort of hacking of that setup is now impossible, as any attempt to hack the 'real' commlink requires hacking into the dummy first, which by the rules crashes as soon as someone runs a program on it, just neatly functioning as an early warning system.

The real commlink and your own cyber can in the mean time run a highly effective teamwork operation and do whatever they feel like by running out, often with decent dicepools. (Say an R3 on the main link + 1 on your datajack + 2 more running on your guns, sensors, cyberarm, whatever, given you a DP of 9). So for not much money I'm now immune to hacking and sporting a pretty sweet trace buster of my own with a go button.
Seraph Kast
Hrmm, guess that makes a bit of sense. Still, hacking as it stands can completely cripple a character that depends on tech, if they don't notice in time. Being able to potentially "shut off" cyberware that an incautious character has on, or is accessible from his commlink, is awfully nasty. Being a gunbunny whose shooting arm and eyes suddenly don't work is a death sentence. A hacker not being able to do those things is not a death sentence, however. Granted, it's not likely for such hacking to occur, and there are probably faster/easier methods of doing it, but the potential does exist.
Cthulhudreams
Sure, but the awesomeness of my proposal can actually be replicated for 'arbitrary items' and thus make anything you care to cable up and glue a 100 nuyen commlink to the outside of immune to hacking.

Which is something of a more difficult proposition because it can apply to corp security systems for example, rather than leaving it as a PC only trick.

But that issue is old hat and has been argued to death here, so I'd just be raking the coals over an extremely charred corpse as I'm sure you're aware.
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ May 7 2008, 04:31 AM) *
i have messed around with cisco equipment and feel somewhat up to speed on those protocols for automatic routeing table generation. number of hops, speed of connections and so on would have a whole lot of impact on the choice of nodes to route thru, thats for sure.

it also make the signal rating fairly redundant unless you only want to have your devices talk to other devices directly, like for example a rigger and his drones. and at that point the retransmission equipment comes into play.

so if one have a team of runners that do not maintain any matrix links, use stealth mode, skinlink their gear, and maintain com silence unless the proverbial troll-drek hits the fan, they should be nicely stealthy while on a job imo.

as in, while one may carry around a comlink that can hit signal 9+, it will for all practical terms drop to signal 0 if nothing more is needed.

Yep, it does make high signal less important for all except riggers in the wireless wilderness and for niche hackers (hacking from the barrens). However, higher signal gives you greater flexibility and is pretty cheap so better aerials are fine, too.
CanRay
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ May 6 2008, 08:36 PM) *
sounds like static and dead zones to me wink.gif (p210 SR4)

Exactly. But described using terms that aren't rules based for the new player, and in a way he could understand.

Were I back home (In the Mountains) I would describe the valley's that didn't have any cell service for whatever reason.
Fuchs
QUOTE (CanRay @ May 6 2008, 01:41 PM) *
Also, if you get EVERYTHING Skinlinked, there goes the Wireless PAN. They'd just burn the wireless unit out of everything they own (Save their commlink) and skinlink everything.


That's how I see the majority of the runners and security-conscious people operate. Although I'd not assume the wireless is burned out, just disabled/turned off.
Shiloh
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ May 7 2008, 05:05 AM) *
People Make this setup

Gear -> 'Real Commlink' that never leaves hidden -> Response 1 'dummy commlink' that they use for being in a regular area.

Any sort of hacking of that setup is now impossible, as any attempt to hack the 'real' commlink requires hacking into the dummy first, which by the rules crashes as soon as someone runs a program on it, just neatly functioning as an early warning system.


Sorry, but I'm not sure which rule crashes a "fuse" commlink like that... Are you extrapolating that there's already one prog running, so the second reduces the 'Link's Response by 1 for having more than [system] programs running, degrading it to Response zero and that this equates to crashing it?

QUOTE
The real commlink and your own cyber can in the mean time run a highly effective teamwork operation and do whatever they feel like by running out, often with decent dicepools. (Say an R3 on the main link + 1 on your datajack + 2 more running on your guns, sensors, cyberarm, whatever, given you a DP of 9). So for not much money I'm now immune to hacking and sporting a pretty sweet trace buster of my own with a go button.


Don't those teamwork elements have to be operated by Agents?
How do you determine the System, Response etc of cyberwear or sensor components for the purposes of running Hacking utilities? Whose persona do they use?
Doesn't running via the "fuse" system degrade the operation significantly? Or, alterntively, doesn't going "active" on your "main" 'Link light you up for node scans by the opposition and intrusion attempts...?
Nightwalker450
The fact that its running hidden doesn't make it immune to hacking, just makes it more difficult to find. So they wouldn't even have to hack your dummy commlink. Unless your "hidden" is actually wired through your dummy commlink, and then if you ever try to do anything wireless via your dummy link you'll crash it as well. So not a "hack-proof" setup.

But running dual commlinks is always a good idea, that way you give people something to check, while at the same time can operate your shadow comm and be less likely to be spotted there.

My technomancer carries 2 commlinks on him, plus he has his internal commlink (living persona). And I'm always picking up a few extra burner commlinks. biggrin.gif
Shiloh
QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ May 7 2008, 03:26 PM) *
The fact that its running hidden doesn't make it immune to hacking, just makes it more difficult to find.


That's an interesting assertion. If you disconnect the aerial, how is it accessible to hacking? Don't even Technomancers need to have some wireless access? Or can you induce meaningful signal (potentially from a commercial access point) in the circuitry of the 'Link? And if you can "by default" what sort of hardening can protect a 'Link from this sort of attack?
Stahlseele
it's real
http://www.redtacton.com/en/info/index.html
and if the 230kbyte/second are true it's fast enough for most things in networking O.o
Fortune
'Hidden Mode' is not the same as having the wireless deactivated. You are still using a wireless Commlink, it is just 'Hidden', as opposed to being in
'Passive' or 'Active' mode.
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