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Method
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ May 13 2008, 11:32 PM) *
Not by themselves, at least not in any context I've ever heard of. Delusions are commonly a part of the symptoms present in "psychotic disorders", but unless I'm very mistaken are not usually sufficient by themselves.

In deed...
Link
And to be technical, the DSM-IV TR lists delusional disorders (i.e.- without hallucinations) under the category of "Schizophrenia and Other Psychotic Disorders". smile.gif
Wesley Street
QUOTE (Chrysalis @ May 11 2008, 05:01 PM) *
What kinds of skills would a serial killer need in Shadowrun? Most active skills seem to involve sledge hammer like precision.


Depends on your modus operandi as to blades or firearms. But definitely all the Charisma based skills. Pilot Ground Craft with a specialty in vans. Positive qualities: Blandness and Positive First Impression. Negative quality: Sexually disturbed/bat-shit-fucking insane. Serial killers have an uncontrollable compulsion to kill. They kill because of a chemical imbalance has them addicted to killing and hurting others. With men it's a sexual thrill, with women it's a rush of power in hurting something smaller (just as most male serial killers aren't charming like Hannibal Lecter, most female serial killers aren't the sexy Basic Instinct type. They kill children [usually their own] or hospital patients [usually in their care]).

QUOTE (Chrysalis @ May 11 2008, 05:01 PM) *
What would the corps use serial killers for?


Experimental subjects for anti-psychotic drugs?

QUOTE (Chrysalis @ May 11 2008, 05:01 PM) *
Could there be p-fix serial killers?


In the world of Shadowrun, I don't doubt it.

QUOTE (Chrysalis @ May 11 2008, 05:01 PM) *
Could there also be shadow schools for murder?


No. A serial killer would see any other serial killer as competition and try and kill him/her. Then probably have sex with the corpse. So it would probably be difficult to hold a class.

QUOTE (Chrysalis @ May 11 2008, 05:01 PM) *
Would there be a youtube like site devoted to it?


Without a doubt. Check out the classic proto-cyberpunk masterpiece Videodrome.
CanRay
QUOTE (Chrysalis @ May 11 2008, 04:01 PM) *
Could there also be shadow schools for murder?

Yeah, it's called the School of Hard Knocks.

You attend it by surviving the worst of the Sprawl.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Wesley Street @ May 14 2008, 03:26 PM) *
No. A serial killer would see any other serial killer as competition and try and kill him/her. Then probably have sex with the corpse. So it would probably be difficult to hold a class.

Out of interest, what possible line of thought led you to this conclusion?

~J
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ May 16 2008, 08:58 PM) *
Out of interest, what possible line of thought led you to this conclusion?

~J


That episode of Masters of Horror where the driver who kills every hitchhiker he picks up meets the hitchhiker who kills anyone who picks them up and after both are disabled in combat they're rescued by the paramedics who kill every patient they pick up.

QUOTE (Method)
Belief that God has sent you to earth to kill women if they touch the door knob of your office is delusional.
I must protest. There is no possible way you can know if such a belief is delusional or not unless you, yourself, are God. But even if you are God you can't be sure that such a belief isn't true because of the possibility that you did it during a drunken black-out.
Method
Fair enough I suppose. Of coarse your argument is moot since I am God... devil.gif

QUOTE (Wesley Street)
Negative quality: Sexually disturbed/bat-shit-fucking insane. Serial killers have an uncontrollable compulsion to kill. They kill because of a chemical imbalance has them addicted to killing and hurting others. With men it's a sexual thrill, with women it's a rush of power in hurting something smaller (just as most male serial killers aren't charming like Hannibal Lecter, most female serial killers aren't the sexy Basic Instinct type. They kill children [usually their own] or hospital patients [usually in their care]).


Um.... huh?

Fortune
QUOTE (Method @ May 17 2008, 04:04 PM) *
Of coarse your argument is moot since I am God...


It's funny, but I somehow never pictured God as being spelling-impaired. biggrin.gif
Method
DOH!!!
Chrysalis
This topic has some very interesting points, but seems to middle abit about what exactly we are talking about. I know next to nothing of the psychological make up of a criminal so what I have done this morning is opened up several books by psychiatrists and investigators that delve into the thought processes of the criminal mind.

Something that needs to be cleared up pleading insanity is not a medical definition but a legal one.


For us to really talk about this topic we are going to have to differentiate between fictional serial killers in the media, and actual killers branded in the media as serial killers.


Fictional serial killers in the media display a heightened intelligence, a perchance for Rube Goldberg devices for his victims and a habit of going out of their way to taunt the protagonists. Not only is the serial killer smart, the police are even smarter. The serial killer often kills because he is compelled to. Often his childhood history involves abuse by a parent or parents and intense fantasies (whether real or not).

Actual killers who have been branded serial killers can be of anyone really, with average intelligence. The most important issue for the killer is the ability to get a victim easily and successfully. He will therefore choose a place he will blend in well and not be noticed lurking around the community. If the area is mostly Irish, for example, the victims of serial killers would probably be of that group. If it is a Caucasian area, then the victims would most likely be white. Of course, if the serial killer broke into an apartment and found the one black woman in the area, he would probably not hesitate to add her to the victim list. This is not to say serial killers don't have a preference. Some will actually work pretty hard at getting their top choice; others just grab the first reasonable victim that comes along.

While there are many wonderful police investigators out there doing some very fine work, the majority of the time it is not brains that catches serial killers. Usually it is just dumb luck. Ted Bundy was speeding. One Alabama serial killer was doing just fine until he took a girl out to the woods to kill her. His car got stuck in the mud and he had to call a friend for a tow.

From what I have understood over a very short study into actual killers that the difference between a killer who kills for money and a killer who kills for pleasure is often more in line with semantics as both are concious of their choices of their behaviour. Often it is argued that sexual sadism is what differentiates a serial killer from a regular killer, but does that actually hold true?

The average serial killer will be ignored by the media because he isn't "cool" enough or he simply didn't get convicted of enough murders to be considered a serial killer.

There is a theory called Locard's Principle of Exchange which states when a crime is committed the killer will always leave some evidence at the scene and take some evidence away with him. The operative word here is "theory". In theory, this is exactly what happens, at least on the microscopic level. Without this theory, all those crime shows with their fantastic forensics wouldn't be able to go into their second and third seasons. There is always some DNA, some fiber, some spore from a plant, some tire tread, some tool mark...something...to link the murder to the bad guy. When that is accomplished, the happy district attorney goes to court and presents an airtight case and justice triumphs.

Then there is the real world. The world where the fingerprints found belong to everyone but the killer (including the cops, the emergency medical team and the mayor), the DNA is too minimal to test, and when the firefighters came in to put out the fire used to cover up the murder, they drowned every shred of evidence under a foot of water. In reality, those rare few cases with good forensic evidence are the ones that make it to court. Prosecutors hate to lose their cases and ruin their reputations. They make darn sure they have a slam dunk case before they hit the courtroom doors. The rest of the cases aren't prosecuted even though we know who committed the crimes. The killer stays out on the street and his name falls through the cracks and by the time he commits his next crime one county over, the police department in that jurisdiction will have no clue as to who he is.
Tunnel Rat
QUOTE (Chrysalis)
Actual killers who have been branded serial killers can be of anyone really, with average intelligence..


While true, serial killers with 'average' intelligence tend to fall into the 'disorganized' side of serial killers. It's the smart ones who are most likely to get away with it.

QUOTE
While there are many wonderful police investigators out there doing some very fine work, the majority of the time it is not brains that catches serial killers. Usually it is just dumb luck.


This isn't always true, and you should know that it's becoming less and less true as time goes on. This is even less true in the world of Shadowrun where everyone with a real SIN also has their DNA on file.

QUOTE (BBB pg 83)
The character was born with or somehow acquired a legal System Identification Number, or SIN(...). This means the character's real identity, personal history, biometric data, credit records, medical history, travel history, etc. are stored and accessible in numerous databanks.


Everyone who has a SIN has a copy recorded by the GSINR (the Global SIN Registry), a corporate court funded regulatory body. So, unless the killer was SINless or choose victims that were SINless, the killer would be the one needing luck.

QUOTE
From what I have understood over a very short study into actual killers that the difference between a killer who kills for money and a killer who kills for pleasure is often more in line with semantics as both are concious of their choices of their behaviour. Often it is argued that sexual sadism is what differentiates a serial killer from a regular killer, but does that actually hold true?


The only trouble in identify the difference between a serial killer and a killer for greed (such as a hitman) is when the motivation for a serial killer is identified as being money. The difference is that while a serial killer is concious of their choices, they are not able to stop themselves from making the same choices over and over again.

QUOTE
The average serial killer will be ignored by the media because he isn't "cool" enough or he simply didn't get convicted of enough murders to be considered a serial killer.


Serial killers don't get reported in the media until they are identified as such. It's not a matter of being 'cool'. Instead, it is a matter of killing in a distinct enough manner or identifying oneself to the media/police.

QUOTE
There is a theory called Locard's Principle of Exchange which states when a crime is committed the killer will always leave some evidence at the scene and take some evidence away with him. The operative word here is "theory". In theory, this is exactly what happens, at least on the microscopic level. Without this theory, all those crime shows with their fantastic forensics wouldn't be able to go into their second and third seasons. There is always some DNA, some fiber, some spore from a plant, some tire tread, some tool mark...something...to link the murder to the bad guy. When that is accomplished, the happy district attorney goes to court and presents an airtight case and justice triumphs.


You are incorrect here. Locard's Principle of Exchange is a SCIENTIFIC theory, and not what is commonly considered to be a 'theory'. It would be like me talking about a Ford Mustang, and you telling everyone that it's just a horse.

For a scientific explanation to become a scientific theory it must have the support of enough evidence that it is unlikely that the explanation will be altered by the discovery of new evidence. What you are thinking of as a 'theory' is what scientists call a 'hypothesis'. In science, a theory is something that has a large amount of evidence to support that explaination.

I should point out that White middle class citizens are amongst the most recorded citizens around in Shadowrun. The only place they aren't on camera is when they're inside their house (and sometimes not even then) or in the toilet (and again, sometimes not even then). In order to continually get away with killing them, a killer would need to be SINless (or be immaculately clean), knowledgeable about Scientific Forensic methods and police procedures, either versed in hacking (or paying a hacker to clean up after them), and have knowledge about magical forensics (or have a mage/shaman clean up after them).

It's a lot more work being a serial killer in 2070 than it is in 2008.
Method
QUOTE (Tunnel Rat @ May 17 2008, 05:31 AM) *
The difference is that while a serial killer is concious of their choices, they are not able to stop themselves from making the same choices over and over again.


Now thats a slippery slope...


QUOTE
It's a lot more work being a serial killer in 2070 than it is in 2008.


You make some good points here. Knowledge skills in "Police Procedures" and "Forensics" would be essential. Hacking skills are a very good idea.
Zak
So, apart from his problematic favorite pasttime, a serial killer could make for a good shadowrunner.
vladski
QUOTE (Zak @ May 17 2008, 12:27 PM) *
So, apart from his problematic favorite pasttime, a serial killer could make for a good shadowrunner.


I think, rather, a Shadowrunner could make a good serial killer. (All poodles are dogs, but not all dogs are poodles sorta thing.) He already practices a lot of "technique" that keeps a serial killer from being caught (SINless perhaps, good stealth skills, understanding of police procedures, etc.). I still don't see "why" however, any Corp (or any other Johnson-type) would be particularly interested in hiring a serial killer, beyond jsut a one-time specialized type of deal.

So, could a Shadowrunner be a serial killer as his "hobby"? Sure! Could even be an interesting character to play. But can a Shadowrunner expect to live on "being" a serial killer? Not in any traditional sense.

Vlad
Zak
Thanks for pointing that out, let me rephrase it to make clear what I meant:

So, apart from his problematic favorite pasttime, a serial killer skilled enough to evade detection could make for a good shadowrunner.
vladski
QUOTE (Zak @ May 17 2008, 01:15 PM) *
Thanks for pointing that out, let me rephrase it to make clear what I meant:

So, apart from his problematic favorite pasttime, a serial killer skilled enough to evade detection could make for a good shadowrunner.


I'd say "Sure!"

Probably would even be fun. *really hoping that doesn't say somethign about himself nyahnyah.gif *

Vlad
Method
Well as far as "serial killing as a job" goes she could be an assassin/himman type. If you've even seen one of those Jerry Springer style "I married a prostitute" shows there's a lot of parallels. Married sex workers often talk about how being with their spouse is different and more intimate. Even if she kills for a living, her private killings could be more "intimate". In many ways thats even more fucked up.
DocTaotsu
I kill because I care?

Honestly from some of the fucked up psych cases I've read, that actually sounds about right. It strikes me that you are much more likely to find some guy or gal who beats their family members half to death than you are to find person who beats random people to death. Anyone who's been in or knows someone who was/is in an abusive relationship is probably familiar with an element of this bizarre but utterly human dynamic.
Method
Absolutely. Although when you're talking about psychopathology it could be "intimate" in a way none of us could comprehend... at least, I *hope* none of us can...
Wesley Street
It sounds to me, Chrysalis, that your interest lies more in the mythological archetype of the "avenging angel" rather than a serial killer. More Frank Castle than Son-of-Sam. Your character's interest lies in killing people who she feels deserve it rather than killing because she has a biological/psychological predisposition to killing. Or am I completely missing the mark?

A book you might want to check out is 45 Master Characters: Mythic Models for Creating Original Characters by Victoria Lynn Schmidt. In the book she breaks down all fictional character types into the female and male archetypes of the Greco-Roman pantheon. The Punisher archetype, while not Greco-Roman in origin, is listed as it fits all characters that do not match with a specific god or goddess.
Wesley Street
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ May 16 2008, 07:58 PM) *
Out of interest, what possible line of thought led you to this conclusion?

~J


Books, articles, relatives and close friends who worked in the criminal justice system, and personal experiences with people with serious mental illness. Throw a bunch of mentally disturbed people into a room together and it's a powder keg ready to go off. Throw in a dose of violent sexual disassociation and it becomes a bloodbath.

But in the context of the discussion I'm starting to think we're not talking about "serial" killing; rather something else entirely.
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