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last_of_the_great_mikeys
I know it's petty, but it's a personal peeve of mine that Improved Physical Attribute costs a full magic point per point of attribute (the equivelant of 10 build points), two magic points (20 build points) if you are going higher than the starting maximum of 6+racial modifier. WHY? For muscle replacement you spend 5000 nuyen (the equivelant of 1 build point) and a point of essence. In exchange you get a point of Strength AND a point of Agility. For Muscle Toner or Muscle Augmentation biowear you spend a mere .2 Essence per rating and 8000/7000 nuyen, or the equivelant of 2 build points with money left over. If you later in the game aquire a suprathyroid gland, that costs you 45000 nuyen but boosts ALL YOUR PHYSICAL ATTRIBUTES FOR A MEASLY .7 ESSENCE. That's equal to 9 build points and 1 point of magic for this uber-boost!

Did the developers actually not want anyone to ever take the Improved Physical Attribute power? Did they want all adepts to save up the cash and get a suprathyroid gland? This sucks! In fact, this sucks more than anything has ever sucked in the entire history of suck! Gawd himself must have been incredibly pleased when he created the perfect suck that is Improved Physical Attribute.
Moon-Hawk
Wow. smile.gif
I seem to recall people suggesting cutting the costs in half for that particular power.
I imagine the current cost is part SR1-3 legacy and part "it has to cost more than improved ability for combat skills"
Aaron
Have you seen the errata about adept initiation?
ArkonC
I wonder why everything has to be balanced...
Sure, cyber and bio can more easily up stats, but adepts have a much easier time getting 13P with a punch and they can also max out their skills...
And then there's the stuff adepts can do which cyber/bio dudes just can't...
Is it expensive? Of course it is...
You don't want to walk the path of training and insight? Get 'ware...
It seems easy enough...
last_of_the_great_mikeys
It has to be balanced because that is what RPG's are based on. If it wasn't balanced nobody would play the nerf archetypes. They'd all play the gawd archtypes.
Speed Wraith
QUOTE (Aaron @ May 13 2008, 02:46 PM) *
Have you seen the errata about adept initiation?


A little more details please? I just checked the errata pages for BBB and Street Magic and didn't see anything that jumped out at me regarding this stuff...
deek
QUOTE (last_of_the_great_mikeys @ May 13 2008, 03:55 PM) *
It has to be balanced because that is what RPG's are based on. If it wasn't balanced nobody would play the nerf archetypes. They'd all play the gawd archtypes.

But you can't just isolate the one power and look for balance just there. As ArkonC is pointing out, take at all the other stuff an adept can do that a mundane can't. You have options that a mundane will never have. So, it costs a little more to get an extra point here or there, but take a look at everything else you have an opportunity to pick up that aren't available to a mundane at all.
last_of_the_great_mikeys
QUOTE (Aaron @ May 13 2008, 12:46 PM) *
Have you seen the errata about adept initiation?


Nope
ArkonC
QUOTE (last_of_the_great_mikeys @ May 13 2008, 09:55 PM) *
It has to be balanced because that is what RPG's are based on. If it wasn't balanced nobody would play the nerf archetypes. They'd all play the gawd archtypes.

No, balance is what CRPGs are based on...
Elves have always been overpriced in SR, that doesn't stop people from playing them...
In our games people take the less than optimal solution all the time because it fits the character better...
There is a big difference between less than optimal (like improved attribute) and useless (like the astral sight advantage)...
Stahlseele
why it is that expansive?
easy: no drawbacks whatsoever!
no monetary cost, no essence cost, karma cost does not count because many things cost karma . .
last_of_the_great_mikeys
QUOTE (deek @ May 13 2008, 01:01 PM) *
But you can't just isolate the one power and look for balance just there. As ArkonC is pointing out, take at all the other stuff an adept can do that a mundane can't. You have options that a mundane will never have. So, it costs a little more to get an extra point here or there, but take a look at everything else you have an opportunity to pick up that aren't available to a mundane at all.


And vice-versa. There are thins 'wear can do that magic never can. Before anyone says that an awakened dude could get 'wear, well, let's be serious, how many adepts are gonna sacrifice their power to get a cyberlimb or implant cyberguns? Besides, this is not about "magic dudes can get 'wear but mundanes can't get magic." It's about balance, which losing magic attribute points in echange for 'wear does this nicely. Improved physical attribute is wrong. When the developers made it they are (and until they fix it they still are) wrong.

It's not just the Improved Physical Attribute, either. For instance, you could spend .5 magic points on two sense improvements...or get a rating 4 cybererye and get all of the eyemods! It doesn't end there, but most of them are all minor and ignorable as a "balancing magic against mundanes" thing. The Improved Physical Attribute, however, is a major one and completely unbalanced.!
last_of_the_great_mikeys
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 13 2008, 01:04 PM) *
why it is that expansive?
easy: no drawbacks whatsoever!
no monetary cost, no essence cost, karma cost does not count because many things cost karma . .

Dude, we may be kindred spirit powergamers, but that's just not how I see it. They made Improved Reflexes, for example, exactly the same as Wired Reflexes, and Improved Reflexes also has no monetary cost or essence cost. They made freaking move-by-wire the same essence cost, for crying out loud. Granted MBW is mucho expensive, but look at what you get for it. Mundanes can even get alphawear to make their mods cost less essence. The magic points spent to get them are not proportionate in build point cost to get the money for the mundane augmentations. But I digress. Improved Physical Attribute is still WRONG!
paws2sky
I'm okay that some things just cost less. I'm also okay with some things being able to do stuff that other stuff can't. Heck, I'm okay with the things that let you seriously twink out a character being expensive. But, seriously, there are some options that are just absurdly overpriced for what you get...

Photographic Memory quality (10 BP)
vs.
Eidetic Sense Memory (.5 Magic, 5 BP)
vs.
rating 1 Cybereyes (waaaay less than 1 BP) with Image Link and Recorder (both free).

Uh... yeah.


-paws
Muspellsheimr
Many Adept abilities are overpriced, but not enough to make them obsolete (for most, anyways). However, I agree that Improved Attribute is by far the worst Adept power to take.

My personal suggestion, alter it so it increases your augmented attribute, not natural, and costs a fixed 1 point per level.

On a side note, I do not see why power costs only come in .25, .5, and whole numbers. I think they should have a more varied cost, similar to essence costs, simply because it makes sense. It also would have the added benefit of being able to make some of the lesser abilities worth taking at lower costs. I will eventually get around to redoing the power costs in this manner...
last_of_the_great_mikeys
True, Musp, but WHY did they nerf I.P.A. so much that it is naught but a festering pile of steaming suck? Why have they not changed this with erratta? Why do they choose to be wrong?
Stahlseele
QUOTE (last_of_the_great_mikeys @ May 13 2008, 10:18 PM) *
Dude, we may be kindred spirit powergamers, but that's just not how I see it. They made Improved Reflexes, for example, exactly the same as Wired Reflexes, and Improved Reflexes also has no monetary cost or essence cost. They made freaking move-by-wire the same essence cost, for crying out loud. Granted MBW is mucho expensive, but look at what you get for it. Mundanes can even get alphawear to make their mods cost less essence. The magic points spent to get them are not proportionate in build point cost to get the money for the mundane augmentations. But I digress. Improved Physical Attribute is still WRONG!

i have a bumper-sticker on one of my cyber/bio-combat-monster-trolls: HONK IF YOU HATE MAGIC! *gg*
you try being the one mundane Troll in a group of 4 to 6 magically active elves . .
as of that occassion, i don't see anything wrong with magical redshirts having to pay out of their noses for it
last_of_the_great_mikeys
Stahlseele, have I got the link for you.
Kyoto Kid
...I'm still curious about the Adept initiation Errata.
JeffSz
For an adept to get an improved attribute....

1 level of Improved Attribute: 1 Magic Point
That translates to 10BP, plus you've used up a Magic point.
You get +1 to an attribute... usually used for STR or AGIL in combat

1 level of muscle replacement: 5,000nY + 1Essence
That translates to 1BP, plus you've lost a Magic point to essence loss.
You get +1 STR, +1 AGIL (that's +2 attribute points)

9 BP cheaper to get an extra attribute boost? Ummmm.... Yeah.

If anyone comes up with a balanced set of houseruled point costs for adept powers, please let me know. Nobody will play Adepts in my group because they can get way more from cyber... not the -same- stuff sometimes, but more bang for the BP, and much more choice as well.
Stahlseele
technically you have to buy up your magic first to lose it again due to implant or did i understand that wrong somehow? . .
so the bp cost for the muscle stuff should include the cost for the magic attribute point you just lost . . not so much cheaper anymore neh? O.o
Aaron
Of course RPGs should balance. Real life is balanced, isn't it?

Seriously, real life really is balanced, just not always in the middle. You want to add to your attribute rating? There are plenty of ways to make that happen, and some methods are better at increasing an attribute rating than others.
Adarael
Find me some 'ware that lets me get up to 6 extra levels of damage on a hand-to-hand attack.
Find me some 'ware that lets me add up to 6 extra dice to a firearms attack AND stacks with Smartlink.
Find me some 'ware that lets my hands light on fire like I'd doused them in napalm, but never affects me or my stuff.
Find me some 'ware that lets me buy a weapon that adds extra dice and lets me smack spirits around like a punch.
And lastly...
Find me some 'ware that lets me Center vs. Penalties.

Yeah, Improved Attribute costs a lot. Why? Because adepts can still get 'ware. Because adepts can do some things better than others. And because they have 2 roads of improvement open to them, and the rest of us only have one.
DreadPirateKitten
Buy magic to 5, take the 1 point you would have spent on Improved attribute and instead get +2 str +2 agility with muscle aug and muscle toner for .8 essence and 30,000 nuyen. This translates to 10+6 for 16 bp, for the equivalent of 40 bp of improved attribute. You also have enough essence left over for some cyber eyes, or whatever.

Throw 50 bp at essence, and you could buy 160,000 nuyen worth of bioware reflexes for 1 essence, too, and have 3 IP and all your magic left, too, except 1, but this is getting costly. =)
Muspellsheimr
Adept powers cost more than their augmentation equivalents. This is how it should be, to help account for the ability to take both, the reduced limit of essence from initiation, and the lack of Nuyen costs. However, power costs should be low enough to remain viable (outside of pure character concept) choices when compared to augmentatoin. Most Adept powers are fairly good at this, some need a few minor adjustments (such as Increased Reflexes), and some are way the fuck off in costs (Improved Attribute).

If you do not want to compare power to augmentation, try power to power. Improved Attribute (Reaction) vs. Increased Reflexes. At below-natural maximums, Improved is indeed better if the only thing you are going for is Reaction. Roughly equal once you take into account IP. However, as Improved also increases the karma cost for advancement, below natural maximum is the worst time to take it. Now look at above natural maximum; Increased Reflexes gives the same boost to Reaction for less, and gives additional passes.

Improved Attribute is obviously the worse of the two, and I personally believe Increased Reflexes is still slightly overpriced.
Larme
Don't stack up cyber augmentations against adept powers and demand equality. Samurai and physads are not separate character classes where one must be just as good as each other. There are no character classes in SR. If cyberware is a more efficient route to raising physical attributes, use it, don't complain about it, just use it. If you don't want to, that's your own choice. Not a system flaw.

I think the rationale for the Adept power being so expensive is that, in the most basic terms, sammies are about starting out really strong without a lot of easy improvement, and adepts are about starting out weak with a much higher potential. It's easy for a samurai to raise attributes to a point, but beyond that they're stuck. Adepts can keep piling on the bonuses, in some cases indefinitely, it just takes a long time for them to equal and exceed the samurai. But what it really comes down to is that sammies are good at some things, adepts are good at others, so the scariest characters will combine the two archetypes, gaining the best of both worlds. If sammies and adepts were equal in all ways, there would be no best of both worlds, it would be the same all around, it would be boring and sucky. Is that what you want? I thought so nyahnyah.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ May 14 2008, 06:49 AM) *
...I'm still curious about the Adept initiation Errata.


The tidbit that was being refered to earlier has not actually made it to the Errata yet.

Basically it will say that when an Adept Initiates they have the option of taking an extra Magic point instead of a Metamagic.
Jaid
QUOTE (Fortune @ May 13 2008, 07:17 PM) *
The tidbit that was being refered to earlier has not actually made it to the Errata yet.

Basically it will say that when an Adept Initiates they have the option of taking an extra Magic point instead of a Metamagic.

how does that change the fact that nobody wants to take improved attribute power? it's still never gonna be taken, because it's still not as good of a use of resources =P

that's not to say i feel the power needs to be changed (honestly, i could care less if adepts have to pay a ton to magically increase their attributes permanently), but the fact that adepts can get power points more easily still doesn't make it a good investment to buy improved attribute...
Tracer
Heaven forbid that a cyber character should get a leg up ever...THE HORROR!!!!!I'm sorry where does magical advancement end...oh yeah it doesn't...how many GMs do you know that let you play a cyberzombie or even a cyborg...not many in my experience.Magic isn't balanced with cyber in any way shape or form.If i decide two months into a game that my cyber character could use that funky adept power i cant suddenly sprout magic and learn it...even if it fits the concept however if its reversed i can take that piece of ware safe in the knowledge i can just initiate and buy my magic back up.Hell show me the cyber character that with standard rules can start the game with 4 initiate passes!The cyber character is a dying commodity as far as I'm concerned...why play a cyber character thats limited by essence when i can play a magical character that isn't limited by anything.got spare karma...oh I'll initiate...spare cash well theres that foci i could use.I get tired of people complaing about ANY form of magic being over costed...give me lower essence costs and more ware and they might be on par but magic is never over costed compared to cyber.The only thing stopping an adept from taking over all the roles in the group is your roleplaying.


In closing:In shadowrun magic=the win

Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Fortune @ May 13 2008, 05:17 PM) *
The tidbit that was being refered to earlier has not actually made it to the Errata yet.

Basically it will say that when an Adept Initiates they have the option of taking an extra Magic point instead of a Metamagic.

...so what this means is an adept can gain more powers without increasing MA if she ditches learning a metamagic technique?
ArkonC
QUOTE ('SM Errata')
p. 31 Tweaking the Rules
Add the following Tweak:
“Adept Initiation. Groups may consider allowing adepts to gain 1 Power Point instead of a Metamagic at Initiation.?

It actually has made it into the errata...
last_of_the_great_mikeys
Hmmm...you all seem to have taken things to a far broader scope. I want to know why the specific power of Improved Physical Attribute is so sucky in its cost to benefits ratio. A magic vs. mundane arguement is counterproductive to this. Is there any LOGICAL reason to nerf that one specific power so badly? Seriously, it sucks so badly that if anything were to ever suck worse we'd know the apocalypse was upon us!
last_of_the_great_mikeys
QUOTE (ArkonC @ May 13 2008, 05:09 PM) *
It actually has made it into the errata...

"Tweaking the Rules" is hardly official. It's merely an idea. Try this in tournament play and you'd be told "no." By calling it "Tweaking the Rules" they are saying outright, "This is not the official rules, but here's some ideas you might like in your own game, which, if you use this, will not be following the official rules. But hey, it's your game and maybe this will make you buy more Shadowrun products."

Oh...DO buy more Shadowrun products! wink.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (Jaid @ May 14 2008, 10:23 AM) *
how does that change the fact that nobody wants to take improved attribute power?


I never said it would. I was merely answering a specific question.

QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...so what this means is an adept can gain more powers without increasing MA if she ditches learning a metamagic technique?


Yep.

QUOTE (ArkonC)
It actually has made it into the errata...


My bad. Oh well ... at least I took the time to explain it though, since clarification was requested more than once.
ArkonC
QUOTE (last_of_the_great_mikeys @ May 14 2008, 03:18 AM) *
"Tweaking the Rules" is hardly official. It's merely an idea. Try this in tournament play and you'd be told "no." By calling it "Tweaking the Rules" they are saying outright, "This is not the official rules, but here's some ideas you might like in your own game, which, if you use this, will not be following the official rules. But hey, it's your game and maybe this will make you buy more Shadowrun products."

Which is completely irrelevant to what I said, you see, it is in the errata... smile.gif

QUOTE (Fortune @ May 14 2008, 03:22 AM) *
My bad. Oh well ... at least I took the time to explain it though, since clarification was requested more than once.

You little philanthropist you... nyahnyah.gif
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (me)
...so what this means is an adept can gain more powers without increasing MA if she ditches learning a metamagic technique?

QUOTE (Fortune)
Yep.

...the Short One is very pleased. grinbig.gif
JoelHalpern
I think the thing that bothers me about the Attribute Increase power point cost (and to some degree the Improved Reflexes power) is that the way it is designed, you have to sacrifice an awful lot for character style if you want a non-cybered, non-bioengineered adept.
No, things don't have to balance perfectly. Not every character is optimized.
But when the difference is between getting +2 in two stats, vs +1 in a single stat, it is pretty lopsided. Yes, the adept power can actually boost stats like willpower and Intuition that cyber/bio can't touch. But for most designs that's not where it is being used. And even then, the cost is QUITE steep.

I presume on the skill increase powers, the cost difference is game balance, because the combat powers are likely to be more effective in practice.

The Improved Reflexes is the same cost as the cyberwear, so at first glance it seems reasonable. But the cost in character development potential is quite different. The cybered guy can switch to bio, and use the essence hole for other stuff. But at least the costs of the bio is sufficiently high that you have to consider the alternatives for the adept. It's not the kind of no brainer that improved agility / strength with cyber/bio is as design.

The point for me is that while there is no need for everything to be balanced, one would expect most things to be close enough that a reasonable character design could make the choice for style and not be making a major sacrifice.

Yours,
JoelHalpern
Cain
QUOTE
I'm sorry where does magical advancement end...oh yeah it doesn't


Improved Physical Attribute caps out at the racial modified limit, just like cyberware. The magical advancement ends there.
Jaid
QUOTE (JoelHalpern @ May 13 2008, 10:24 PM) *
Yes, the adept power can actually boost stats like willpower and Intuition that cyber/bio can't touch. But for most designs that's not where it is being used.

QUOTE (SR4 page 187)
Improved Physical Attribute
Cost: 1 per level
With this power, you can raise a Physical attribute (Agility,
Body, Reaction, or Strength
).


are you sure it can do that?

really, as has been said, the power was basically designed the way it is because adepts are not intended to be good at boosting attributes magically compared to technology. that isn't inherently wrong, it's just how it is. if you want boosted attributes, don't play an adept, play something else that *does* boost attributes easily.

honestly, i don't complain when my hacker/rigger characters aren't also the ultimate unarmed combat killing machine, why is it such a huge problem that your pure magic adept won't have an easy time with boosting attributes?
Briggan
I think the reason that the 'Improved Attribute' adept power costs 1 is because were it to be any cheaper then adepts would often become powerful dice pools of destruction. With no ceiling on their potential to advance, as opposed to cybered characters, its no wonder that such a power which could be over used costs 1 point. I say just be thankful they didn't charge 2 for a boost of 1.

It's simply a straight magic point for attribute point swap, I think thats fair. The idea being that a degree of your mana is being constantly channelled into say your reaction, a whole degree, not a half or a quarter, but a whole to make sure your retain the boost. It makes sense on both a technical and acstetic level. I mean why would half a degree of your mana warrent a full degree boost to say body or reaction?

Remember, no matter how much it annoys me, Adepts have no limit to their potential with initiation and metamagic. Therefore why worry about 1 power point attribute boost, think of other powers.
Cain
QUOTE
Remember, no matter how much it annoys me, Adepts have no limit to their potential with initiation and metamagic. Therefore why worry about 1 power point attribute boost, think of other powers.

Except for the Racial Modified Limit.

Not to mention that actually getting a magic score/initiation rating high enough to actually overpower other fighting archetypes requires more karma than anyone's likely to see in a normal campaign.
JoelHalpern
QUOTE (Briggan @ May 13 2008, 11:13 PM) *
I think the reason that the 'Improved Attribute' adept power costs 1 is because were it to be any cheaper then adepts would often become powerful dice pools of destruction. With no ceiling on their potential to advance, as opposed to cybered characters, its no wonder that such a power which could be over used costs 1 point. I say just be thankful they didn't charge 2 for a boost of 1.


Then why define the power at all? That's what gets me confused. There is no point in defeining a power in the rules if it is not expected that somebody would use it. (And since, as Jaid pointed out, it is defined for physical stats, it makes even less sense.
I'm not arguing that it should be cheaper. Maybe physical improvement really ought to be the domain of cyber.
I presume it is defined because it feels right for it to work.
But then it shouldn't be so expensive that no reasonable character will use it. I mean even if you have a sensitive system, its still cheaper to use bio than adept points for physical state improvement!

I understand that in this regard the rules are what they are. (And sure, some houses may choose to bend them) but I wish I could get my head around a game design sense of why they are this way.

JoelHalpern
Seraph Kast
It's expensive because Attribute boost is amazing. Seriously, there's no reason to ever take the permanent boosts, when for .25 magic you can get something that's better. A starting character with Magic 5 and 1 point in attribute boost, is going to see a +2 bonus on average. Yes, occasionally you might not get any successes, but since you can simply try again on your next action...yeah. For 1/4th the cost you get typically double the benefit. And resisting 1 drain isn't exactly tough either.

Plus, Boosts don't require you to increase them really. As long as you beef up magic, it'll keep getting better, leaving that boosted magic attribute to give you even more powers.
last_of_the_great_mikeys
Improve Physical Attributes is not amazing. It sucks. I believe I made this point clear. It's expensive because it sucks. It would lose it's suck by costing less. I would like to talk to a developer to ask him or her directly why he or she made the power suck so much.

Attribute Boost is irrelevant to the suckiness that the expense of Improved Physical Attribute has (at rating 7!).
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Briggan @ May 13 2008, 08:13 PM) *
I think the reason that the 'Improved Attribute' adept power costs 1 is because were it to be any cheaper then adepts would often become powerful dice pools of destruction. With no ceiling on their potential to advance, as opposed to cybered characters, its no wonder that such a power which could be over used costs 1 point. I say just be thankful they didn't charge 2 for a boost of 1.

QUOTE ( BBB 187)
Improved Physical Attribute
With this power, you can raise a Physical attribute (Agility, Body, Reaction, or Strength). Each level increases the attribute by one. If you later want to increase the attribute using Karma, the cost is based on the total attribute, including th magical improvements. Increasing Reaction with this poewr also affects Initiative.

This power allows you to exceed your natrual attribute maximum up to the augmented maximum, but each point over the maximum costs double (2 Power points per level).

There is a ceiling to potential advancement - your augmented maximum. It does charge 2 Power Points for a 1-point boost. And it has the additional disadvantage of upping the Karma cost of future improvement, which augmentation does not do. Even more, augmentation can increase some mental attributes, Adept powers cannot.

Improved Attribute is by far the worst Adept power in the game. Concept-wise, Attribute Boost works nearly as good. Efficiency-wise, it is the last choice anyone would ever consider taking.

As for those saying not everything needs to be balanced, if we were talking about a strategy based game, such as Magic: the Gathering, I would agree. Keep it balanced enough that it is playable and enjoyable, but not everything needs to be equal, and is actually better if some cards are inferior to others.

On a role-playing game, however, having everything properly balanced is the number one priority for good mechanic design. Every archtype must be able to compete with every other archtype, and maintain the same power level. Not directly - a combat character should always be better at combat than a hacker, and vice versa, but a hacker should be just as good at hacking as a samurai is at killing. Anything else limits the game and destroys it's playability.

Improved Attribute is one of those things that needs heavy modification, or simply removed from the books, because of how shitty it is. Any character that takes it is going to be inferior to a character that does not. Basically, it destroys a character's potential if it is taken.

And for those saying magic has no upper limit, the Karma costs involved far exceed those of any game I have seen to reach the true upper levels.
Adarael
So hey, since we're only considering one thing in an isolated vacuum without giving a crap about wider reaching consequences, why the hell do weapon foci cost so much? I mean, a panther cannon is still gonna kill you more dead!

I mean, as long as we're looking at things in isolation.

Next up: Why do Banshee LMV's cost so much?
last_of_the_great_mikeys
That's a whole 'nother thread, Adarael. This one's for the Improved Physical Attribute adept power and why they designed it to cost so much and thus to suck.
HentaiZonga
I pretty much never take Improved Attribute, considering that Attribute Boost 1 can generally get you a higher boosted rating for one eighth the Power points. Making Improved Attribute cost a flat 1PP, even when over the un-augmented limit, would go a long way to help this. Right now, Improved Attribute is the only power that changes its cost, and the cost change leads to some really weird situations. For example:

I'm a human with Strength 4. I spend 2 PP on Increase Strength 2, raising my Strength to 6. Then, I increase my Strength by an additional 2 with Karma. Do I have to re-allocate 2 PP to my Improved Strength 2, since I'm now over the limit? Or do I now get Strength 8 for only 2 PP, while someone who upped Strength with Karma first, and then purchased the Improved Strength 2, would have to spend 4 PP on the same thing?

These sorts of issues are easily resolved by making Improved Attribute cost 1PP per level, regardless of the Attribute's level at time of purchase.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Jaid @ May 13 2008, 08:59 PM) *
really, as has been said, the power was basically designed the way it is because adepts are not intended to be good at boosting attributes magically compared to technology. that isn't inherently wrong, it's just how it is. if you want boosted attributes, don't play an adept, play something else that *does* boost attributes easily.

Like a possession tradition mage adept, with a force 5-6 guardian spirit, and channelling? rotate.gif
HentaiZonga
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ May 13 2008, 10:58 PM) *
Like a possession tradition mage adept, with a force 5-6 guardian spirit, and channelling? rotate.gif


... that's one way to do it, yeah. wink.gif Incidentally, does that make him dual-natured for as long as he's Possessed?
Stahlseele
another reason as to why it is so expansive?
well, because taking it has NO chance to actually kill you any more . . at least in SR3 if you used up ALL of your karma to get it, no more hand of god for you until you had gotten some new shiney karma . . with SR4 and Edge, even that does not apply any more . . but if you're allready low in Essence and don't have access to cybermanatech and you take some boosting ware, you can simply flat out die . . if the doc does not tell you that the ware was used then it costs you more of your essence than you think, so even if it should technically be safe to take the ware and the doc forgets to mention this tiny little detail you're still dead on delivery . .
while i'm thinking about it now: can one hand of god death from essence loss? O.o
andybody ever ask this question? anybody ever ask for it to be HOGed?
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