No it's not. Someone else is in the dirvers seat and the constant and reoccurring feature of merges is that they do not cling to their old patterns but goes off on tangents. Just because you're materialistic and might like collecting rare coins or old movies or vintage wines but one the spirit's driving, that won't matter. They will have your memory of that but will follow it's own agenda and will not care about what the last tennant will hope happened.

It will have your memories but it's a body. You're argument is like the car nut who builds a great car. pours his heart and soul into it and then sells it. Sure what he put into it will show his hallmarks for as long as the car is on the road, but he has no further say in it and will not know what happens to it.

Just sayin'.

Snow Fox, stop being obtuse. If you continue to approach this question from a dualist perspective, you will never come to the conclusions that a materialist would, nor will you ever understand why they would come to those conclusions. You persist in claiming that there is an indefinable "you" that exists separately from your body and your experience as the core of your argument. Materialist philosophies explicitly reject that.

Yes, if you get merged you will do things differently from what you would have had you not been merged. Similarly, if you eat Cheerios this morning, your actions will be different than if you eat hashbrowns instead; and the materialist does not see any fundamental difference between these two statements. Larger, more meaningful events have a larger impact on your future actions, and events which cause you to live forever while being able to lift and throw a motorcycle with one arm can probably be forgiven the accusation that the impact they will have on your future actions can be expected to be large.

Obviously, you aren't a materialist. For a dualist, who conceives of themselves as being of a separate, possibly spiritual substance from their body, the fact that some spiritual transformation was explicitly going to take place would no doubt be horrifying. But not everyone in the world is a dualist. There are materialists here also. And they are seriously unable to see any fundamental difference between being irrevocably changed by seeing Two Girls, One Cup and being irrevocably changed by being magically merged with an ant spirit. Both are events that you cannot forget which will color your actions and opinions for the rest of your life.

-Frank

Frank, you can argue for materialism all you want - but the new Frank may have your memories, but he'll also have the memories of a bug spirit, and those bug spirit memories and personality will be dominant. Your goals won't matter anymore, your dreams won't matter anymore, all that matters is the hive's growth.

ah, now I understand you. the word you want to use, and had done so I would have understopod your view sooner, is not materialiat, it's atheist.

more importantly we are not having a rL debate, where, you and I would have to agree to disagree and then talk about other things, the baseball season, martini quality, price of gas...

BUT

We are discussing SR, a game in which it has been proven that there is a spirit which is seperate from the material body. This is proven fact in the game world, and so the materialistic view, in the game, fails.

And again ... Catholic?

Even from a materialist perspective, it's not Frank. It's an alien that has access to Frank's memories, and looks like him - but has its own thoughts, agenda, and memories. Frank will just be a memory, like a movie archive.

No. I mean Materialist. There are non-materialist atheist philosophies (like Buddhism), and there are non-atheist materialist philosophies (mostly pantheistic ones).

By conflating the two, you are at best demonstrating your own tremendous ignorance on the subject. At worst, you might be being deliberately dishonest in this discussion. I'll assume for the moment that you are merely ignorant.




To agree to disagree one has to at the least understand the oher's argument. I understand yours, but it's really obvious that you don't understand mine.


In the game world there are still materialists. Magic is simply accepted as part of the world. No definitive evidence exists that any part of "you" transcends your existence after you die, and there are as many people who regard an astral aura as a shadow cast by one's existence as regard it as an ultimate and ideal self. Would you trade your shadow for power? If not, can you at least begin to understand why someone else might?

-Frank

I'm just going to step in and say that SR has never confirmed or denied the existence of the soul, the afterlife, or of any particular diety or object of pre-Awakening worship. Don't take astral projection as being proof or disproof of a materialist theology just yet.

Beware, "FrankTrollmann" is an agent of the evil bug monster, or even already one of them, and he, or more precisely, it wants us to embrace body-snatcher-dom... Haha, I have seen through your nefarious plot, Not-FrankTrollmann-but-a-hideous-cockroach-monster-from-another-dimension-pretending-to-be-FrankTrollmann-who-has-been-body-snatched.

I see three issues of relevance here. Two I think are original, the other has already been stated by Snow Fox, but I wish to say it again because I agree with her.

The first issue is that when a Mafia man is in fact a bug, there are serious repercussions with law enforcement. One thing keeps organised criminals in positions of power in the real world (and the megacorp playground of SR2070), and that is the tolerance of the government. This tolerance can result from a lack of will to tackle the problem, corruption that interferes with the intention to do so, and the legal process. The British government has on occasion carried out assassinations within the UK (in Northern Ireland, at least), but the police here are bound by the law, by requirements for evidence. Bugs are approved for death everywhere however. There's no 'we know he's the crime boss but we can't prove it.' There's only 'we can't prove he's a crime boss, but he's also a bug so we can and should kill him.' The game has changed once the criminals are bugs. The legal tolerance that allows them to thrive goes out the window and you're left with only lack of resource and corruption to ensure that tolerance. It's also a legal (and PR) situation that would probably allow rival gangsters to openly target their rivals for assassination. That makes a potentially significant difference as well.

The second issue is one of motivation. We know what motivation a mafia boss has for acquiring his wealth and being in charge - he gets luxury and respect. An ant spirit cares for neither of these. What motivates an ant spirit seems to be the normal insect drive - consume and reproduce. Now going back to government tolerance of organised crime, that's based on not being threatened by organised crime. The government understands people who want wealth and status for its own sake. But look at how hard they come down on people who seek power for other reasons. If someone started shaking down the local neighbourhoods so that they could fund the development of their own paramilitary force and reinforced training facility you'd see that tolerance vanish instantly. That's what bugs are - a foreign nation. They aren't working in the system and they don't know their place. They are building their own power base society that is dangerous, independent and doesn't operate on the normal economic and social basics of their host country. They are a fifth column and an extremist cult in a way that human gangsters never would be. Waco was burned down and they weren't even running extortion rackets on the local populace.

And just as emphasising the importance of government tolerance led us to question the role of bugs' motivations in keeping that tolerance, so looking at their motivations leads us to question just how much continuity is actually maintained between a pre-host vessel and their merged form. And this is where I will echo what Snow Fox has already stated. Whilst it is demonstrable that the hybrid merge has access to its predecessor's memories and knows how to emulate its mannerisms, this is not all that constitutes someone's individuality. And I don't need to refer to souls or spirits to support that. An insect spirit's motivation is clearly different to its body's previous owner. For anything other than a queen itself, the individual's loyalty is entirely to the queen. That shoots Frank's persuasive sales pitch for the insect path to personal power to pieces. What's the good in gaining power if it is used solely for someone else's gain (and moreover someone who you had no care for or loyalty to before you gained it). Or to put it in a less original way - what profits it a man to gain the whole world, if he gives up his immortal soul in return? It's always been reasonably clear to me from the source material that a hybrid insect spirit is using its access to its predecessor's memories and mannerisms to maintain a cover, not simply going about its normal life, watching the same TV shows and the same sorts of meals. Some scary Body Snatchers invasion that would be.

So I think Bugs infiltrating the mafia is a compelling plot point. And the notion of someone giving themselves up to inhabitation for the sake of power intriguing. But I don't think it's necessarily sensible. As motivations go, I've always found revenge to be one of the most compelling plot drivers. If this woman gave her life in order to topple someone she hated, that would be a fascinating character.

My thoughts,

K.

As it should be, at least in my opinion. Although the conversation was whether members of the Mafia, who are traditionally Catholic, would be willing to have a bug spirit take them over.

Or rather it was. Now it seems to be morphing into a debate on the definition of philosophical terms that has been further confused by the inclusion of inconsistent capitalization.

What about Italian mafioso that aren't materialist? I understand your decision, because you are a materialist, but keep in mind that not everyone is that way. Not to mention the whole Astral Plane and Spirits in Shadowrun open up another philosophical can of worms.

There is one aspect that I think a materialist would be willing to consider.
The merge, even a perfecdt flesh-form merge, is going to change the goals and motivations of the person. So, even accepting that a Materialist would still consider the result to be themselves, with added information and perspective (the bug components), there is the legitimate question that they would ask themselves:
Are the goals, purposes, and actions of the person afterwards sufficiently consistent with my own goals now that I want to become that person.

For a pretty similar example, most writers who hypothesize heavy duty mind training techniques consider that the criminals really don't like the penalty. Why? Because while they are still alive, they have become someone they don't want to be. Even if the result were to get them a better life style, they would choose to reject it.

Just because someone is a materialist does not mean that they are cardboard who ONLY wants long life and comfortable resources. They might well note that the result would be bug domination of their culture, centered on bug goals, etc. In fact, many portrayals of Sicilian life and crime focus on their desire to retain independence and their own cultural views.

No, it is no inconceivable that some mafioso (or some people) would choose to accept the merge. But assuming that there was reasonable knowledge of what the deal really entailed, I think that there are other factos (having nothing to do with identity or souls) that the individuals would consider. (Aaron also mentioned some others such as "hmm, now I become a target for everyone.)

Yours,
Joel M. Halpern

But on the bright side, at least you're a moving target.

Frank, assuming your second name is a reference to a meta type and not a pattern of posts then I can only say that you have, considering what your outlook seems to be, my pity. but I think we should keep this on SR, not RL philosophies. We will disagree on RL and we can say that's agive. SR does have a marked difference between a spirit and a material body. A mage can astrally project from the body andif not properly guarded or just unlucky, another spirit can move in while you're 'out.'

Let's focus on the original topic: Insect Mages and the La Costra Nostra. There will still be plenty of people that believe in spirits, and assuming that the mobsters knew what the Universal Brotherhood was all about, they would find their goals abhorrent if said mobsters were Catholic/or believed in spirits.

There seems to be an underlying assumption that any mafiosa (Or anyone else for that matter) who volenteers to undergo investment actually knows what will happen to them. That they know that they will become a bug suite or whatever. I suspect the reality would be different.
If Al C gets dragged off and force invested, then the nice new buggy can go back and tell everyone how great it is, and how much new power he's got and all that and since he looks, talks, and acts like Al C then his associates will think that it is still Al C and not some puppeteering bug. THe bug will happily play the part as instructed by the queen of course, because it will help grow the hive etc.

I think it's his real name. Which is kinda gutsy, seeing as this is the Intertrucks and all.

Ah, now I understand. But my one remaining question is this:
Does the Mafia know what the Universal Brotherhood is about? Are Insect Mages public knowledge, or is knowledge of them easily attainable by the mobsters? I believe that this is an important factor.

Materialist philosophy is hardly the only one that finds the prospect of soul selling for power to be advantageous. Dualists who believe that their spirit is holding them back or endangering them for any reason have ample reason to divest themselves of it, whether they get anything for it or not. It's a fairly common heresy amongst Christians for example to believe that Good and Evil are in a war of roughly equal powers. For people who take on a Manichaean heresy or something similar, being good rather than evil holds no attraction, the goal would be to elevate yourself as high as possible in the esteem of YHWH or Satan. And for those people, allowing a demon to insinuate itself into your soul is a way to guaranty your good treatment in the afterlife by the one who wll ultimately judge it: Satan.

Similarly, anyone who reads carefully into the bible and finds that they cannot get past the gates of heaven without following the laws of Moses is in quite a bind if they've been blending fabrics and haven't mutilated their penis. However, if they find a way to destroy their immortal spirit and simply live immortally on Earth, they can save themselves from hellfire. That would make the prospect of Vampirism or Insect merging pretty attractive to many schools of Christian thought. After all, Revelations puts a pretty small number on the Saved. And if you're a mafioso, you can probably guess that there are well more than 144,000 people more deserving of salvation than you.

So yes, many people who believe in gods and the immortality and primacy of their own spirit will find it in their best interests to merge with a bug. Not all of them certainly, but many.

-Frank

While your spirit will change with the merger (beyond recognition for many), a dualist may well see the changes as spiritual enlightening. Bug spirits care about their community first, always do their duty and perform way better than a mere human. If you perceive a merged form as spiritually superior, all is fine with infestation.

We all usually play people with a criminal mindset. Spiritually they are mostly bad with a few good tendencies. Now assume a new campaign. Everyone is a street gangster, nearly no ressources, but you may opt-in on the bug spirit hive your gang has going. Hive members are physically stronger, have additional powers, perform to the best of their abilities and do not betray the hive. We can´t judge the importance of the metahuman personality for the merged personality, but from the rules, all you really care about might still be there. Are you going to do the best for your little community, or are you going to chicken-out? Which answer is spiritually superior?

I think it's interesting everyone assumes the bugs come in through voluntary invitation. Parasites very rarely are so lucky.

Imagine a situation like this; some form of very intelligent bug infects a person. Rather than looking to reproduce as prolifically as possible, the person looks to reproduce selectively, instead investing in a few quality merges.
The bug-person sets something up with the capo and manages to infect him against his will (perhaps by infecting the capo's doctor, who is far less protected).
The capo now returns to his family and also selectively reproduces; his goal is not to turn every mafiosa into a bug, but rather to spread to very select points. He orders several of his fellows to go visit this doctor for some new implant (haha) and of course, they go (and are subsequently put to sleep for 'surgery' and infected, without even a chance to fight back). Meanwhile, the capo turns his attention primarily on brokering temporary peace with other capos to win their trust long enough to get them infected, or just infects people who support them (doctors, etc.) spreading laterally.

At no point does the fact the mafiosas are Catholics enter into it; they never get a chance to choose. And in fact, the majority of mafiosas won't be infected at all, although they'll have enough support from infected people that the organization as a whole grows a good deal stronger. Reducing the number of infections trades power for discretion, since obviously if it became known the entire organization was infected, it would get chosen for squashing. How common infections get depends primarily on whether infection can be quickly and easily identified, for instance through astral perception.

Well that's what everyone assumed was the case at the beginning, or something similar. The rest of the debate has come from Frank's position that it might not be and that the Mafia might actually be willing to embrace inhabitation.

Philosophically speaking, the voluntary investment (That's the right word isn't it?) is a more interesting discussion. Non-voluntary is a mechanics SR discussion with a different interest level.

I have to agree with nezumi. I doubt that the italian mafia is turning freely into an evilish anti-christian/human bug hive ONLY to gain more power. We have to ask ourselfs who got first infected. Where did it start AND how is the mob ranked.
For example an underboss got possessed and now he/it turns his captains step by step into possessed bug spirits would be a good starting point. Furthermore the captains turn now their lieutenants by time into bugs and then those one take care of the soldiers. This sounds a lot of work, and it is for sure, but remeber that a local family never had 100+ memebers. Maybe all together but not the individual familys.
They used and still do work with a lot of freelancers, mafia soldiers recrute street thugs that want to join the family for any price. And there it starts. An small infected family could demand the thugs to prove themself thru some kind of rituals (where the infections takes place) and so on. Furthermore dont forget the mafia has also friends inside the goverment, corps and small agencys that are loyal to them too (even if this relationship is only money based).
The mob survived so long couse they made money thru those grey-zones that exist in every country/goverment. Gambling, prostitutes, money-laundry and bets. Everyone has desires, and so long the mob doenst exceed this existing grey-zone, like trafficing drugs, supporting terror-groups and so on, they will excist. And always find supportes inside by those goverments, agencys and corps. A super nasty bug queen would profit more of a infected mob familie then of a squatter army. The network that the mob owns is more influential then anything else on the street.

Anyways, at the bottom line i doubt that the roman-catholic background would allow any mafiosi to switch FREELY into a monster. Hell yeah, i now mankind can be greedy, and with no disrespect to anyone here, but anyone that questions traditions and old beliefs has never believed - neither followed old traditions or a religion.
Like i said, my point of view.

Well the Bugs do keep this stuff on the down low. So really the first another family is going to know is when the bugs try sending back a Chicago made man as a bug, or the Chicago guys or people they have talked to go to a family meeting, take an astral peek note a bug, and either alert everyone, or if particularly tweaked by Bug City, attempt to kill the opposing family.

which is, of course, the real terror. You trust al and he tells you it's all good and then by the time you know otherwise, it's too late. I did have a htought htough, the local cell of mafioso is infested and they are pressuring a town, and resistance against them is organized by the local convent, who recognize God's word and his enemies and will face evil and oh by the way happen to be mantid spirits.

One more thing: How is said person sure that the bugs are aligned with their deity? How do they know that they will keep their free will? Is it possible for an Insect Mage to betray or go against the "Hive?" Also, what if the Insects decide to destroy/dispose of you and you fellow Capos? Can you just say "screw it" and renounce being an insect mage?

I dunno. My concern has nothing at all to do with any immortal soul I may or may not have.

I just don't want to go to sleep and from my perspective never wake up again.

Meanwhile someone else gets to drive my body around and use my memories as they see fit.

I'm talking my conscious mind. No spiritual gobbledygook.

Sure, to the outside world, maybe we seem the same. The new driver may even have convinced itself it is me. Meanwhile, however, the pattern of neuroelectrical consciousness that was me has ceased to exist.


-karma

Ruleswise I would say no. Didn't say anything in the books that lets you change your tradition. Insect mages get it even worse as they seem to have a stronger bond to their totem. But it would certainly make for a good story in a novel or a campaign.

On a more general level:

Not all decisions are rational, most aren't. We usually assume (or wish) we and others could make rational decisions, but that might not be what really happens and what people really do.

And then there are those who reject the idea of free will in the first place. So what does it really matter, who is in charge of the body? You have no choice anyway because it was your fate or because some chemical reactions in your brain made you do it. (Or some pesky mage casts Control Thought )

On another topic: Mafiosi being good Catholics? Damn, you got a dark twisted humor when it comes to 'good' Catholics. The actions of the Mafia might be in a tradition with some catholic organisations and actors, but if you go by the Book they are doomed and they 'good faith' is a farce anyway.

Dude, that is spiritual gobbledygook. The idea of "the mind" as something that is separate from a continuation of your memories is an entirely religious conviction. There's no proof for anything like that, in the real world or in the Shadowrun future.

-Frank

Perhaps there isn't any proof.

But the possibility of just never waking up again would be a large deterrent to a lot of folks, I'm betting.

If I copy your memories, and paste them into someone else's mind, and then shoot the original "you" dead, are you still alive? The original "you" certainly would not perceive it to be so. You'd experience dying, and someone else would be running around with your mind-stuff.

There's nothing particularly "religious" about that.

Note that in the real world, I don't necessarily believe there to be "higher powers", but I still do believe in my own conscious mind. The idea that someone else could steal my memories and appearance while leaving me dead would disturb the hell out of me.


-karma

The great thing about unconditional forgivness is that they can do anything they want and still get into Heaven so long as they confess and seek absolution. It might take longer for them to work through purgatory, but still, their lot is substantially better than that of the most righteous of heathens.

Maybe "Good" would be more appropriete. We all know people who think their good and aren't, at least from our perspective. They most likely do think their good. There are all sorts of questionable things that can be justified, based on your perspective. Are they right? Well that's the kicker, and if we had a definite answer, there wouldn't be conflicting moral/philosophical theories out there.

(We all have heard of, either from history or media, crime families who are highly religious. Heck, let's use select ganster rappers as an example. Does anyone think that God really would like them to buy a diamond encrusted cross instead of spending that money doing some charitable work? Or if your cynical, donated to the local church? But they still claim to be christian and love their moms, regardless of their actual actions.)

There are always going to individuals that will trade anything, even and up to their immortal soul, for power. It's why evil exists; people have choice. Frank is right on some notes, if you could ceas to exist instead of suffering torture forever with no chance of escape, many people would take it. But most people also don't think that they're that far gone. In addition to there always being individuals who will sell their soul, a majority of those individuals will also try to weasle out of it at at some point.

My 2c on the materialism isssue definitely resides with the poster who said that if you knew about a future experience that would change you, you would have to think about how it would change you, and if that is how you wish your "memories" to be changed, because your body is along for the ride.

(Hmmm, bugs. Hate bugs. Do I want my memories modified with those of a bug, and to live a bugs life and motivations, even with TV? Nope.)

I also see Vampirism as different, since your effectively adding a new group of survival traits to your life: things to avoid and things you need. But since it's a disease, I don't think it's actively changing your personality simply by catching the disease (though as Frank would probably be quick to point out, the new experiences that your now having by need of survival will effect you. And it would eventually, almost certainly, change you as a person.)

Here's a new question: why hasn't the church tried to do anything about them (the bug mob)? Stealing the immortal souls of people, definitely a no no with regards to any Christians, let alone Catholics.

(Granted in my campaign world the church is a little more powerful than it probably is in alot of campaigns, but regardless the SR Catholic church would strike me as a trifle... meddling, when it comes to important matters.

I mean "good Catholics" in the sense that even sinners try to put a respectable image/do enough good deeds so that they won't become unsaveable.

I've encountered the modern Mafia twice. Once, I was dating a Mafioso's daughter. The second time I was doing some (perfectly legal) work for them. In that experience, I've found members of the Mafia to generally be good Catholics.

Now, what happens between then and 2071, I might not be able to tell you so much about.

My mum interacted with some "families" in her younger days down in Tacoma (the major city between Seattle and the state capital) and she said that they were VERY traditionally catholic. (She attended weddings and such.)

(Of course, this goes back to the difference between actually good catholics, and what people percieve themselves to be. On a different note, it's amazing what people think they can do to each other, and yet still expect to get to go somewhere good after death. Like it's no big deal or something.)

I'm not all that interested in the various complications that might have stopped this from happening, since despite any of the problems, and all of the many and various reasons for it to fail that we can come up with, it has already actually happened. I'm much more interested in what's next on the agenda for the Bug Mob.

Getting stomped by the not-bug mob allied with just about every other faction of the powers in southern italy.

Or (my cynical view): Killed by a lone runner in the next novel (and the runner discovers he is the re-incarnation of an ancient hero and has special super powers).

Or (my very cynical view): Described in the next sourcebook as openly ruling an entire city, where humans are hunted as prey, with a blocakde of the city set up by the rest of italy. This will be dragged on for years, until shortly before SR5 it'll be all over in 2 days once the army and vatican finally move in and clean up.

There are a number of well-known diseases that cause clear and otherwise unexplained behavioral changes in the victim. An easy one is rabies; an otherwise friendly animal becomes tremendously aggressive, even attacking its own offspring. There's the one that means pregnant women shouldn't clean up cat poop. It causes rats to actively seek out cats, even though they know they'll get killed and is believed to be associated with some psychological disorders in humans as well. There's another disease of ants that cause them to walk around with their abdomens up in the air, so they look like berries and get eaten by birds. I would suspect that vampirism would have a similar effect; it's still the same line of consciousness, but all of a sudden the character is aggressive, hungry, etc. without real cause. You aren't just normal Joe Blow except now you need extra sun cream.

One of the nice things about going to a catholic primary school. I was in the same grade as the local Don's* daughter. (Also the son of one of his laundry blokes) My sister was good friends with the younger daughter as well and even stayed over a few times. Definately 'Good Catholics' and nice people.


*He would have been a minor don though.

Hmm what about Pagans, Heathenry is a Norse aspect.

WMS

Hmmm, excellent point. I haven't read anything that implied that (or at least that I recall), so I was assuming that it didn't do the "crazy rabies" thing (just an example). But in literature and popular culture there are plenty of examples on both sides of the line.

... I had totally forgotten that most of the strains do cause crazy stuff to happen to your personality (like making you lead cults of canniballs). I'll have to double check the vampires though, I believe some of them remain relatively themselves (and I think the non crazy ghouls are similar).

Still, I have to think that me with rabies is better than not "me" wearing a me-skin suit. One can argue about the existance or non existance of the soul, but when an invisible flying ant is offering you super powers, you might want to reconsider the existence of your spirit, from a purely "well, if the super flying ant exists, why wouldn't I?"

False dichotomy. If flying magic ant spirits exist, why wouldn't you believe in the invisible pink unicorn, the celestial teapot, or the flying spaghetti monster? Why wouldn't you believe in The Force and try to become a Jedi?

The existence of one or more things that were unknown to science at some point in the past is no reason to believe in any specific thing that is currently unknown to science.

-Frank

but it does show there is a non-material life form. A Mage can split her spirit from her body to astral travel and leave just the husk behind. In the SR worl this is a proven fact.

And your point is?

Astral projection is not necessarily equatable in any way to souls or the afterlife.

Astral Projection seems to prove that the immaterial part of the self can not survive without the material part. Fully consistent with the view that everything depends on the body.

Materialism would need to be restricted in the face of purely astral phenomena, but the whole metagene business would then make a strong point to call metahumanity materialist.

But it does show that the two can seperate. The body stays behind when the mage leaves it and something else can move in, possess the body, and the original owner is SOL.

Because I believe whatever my religion tells me to believe, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster was an evil atheist invention made to tempt the faithful!

But seriously, in SR, magic ant spirits are a reality. Inivisible pink unicorns are still in the realm of belief, as the developers did not make stats and back stories of them yet.