Hi,

I have just finished reading the May Chat Transcript and I have found this gem on page 4: "I was the guy who came up with the Bugs infiltrating Italian Mafia ." (Peter Taylor).

What is he referring to? Where can I find more information?

Cheers,

B.

Shadows of Europe

Thank you for the quick answer

I'd give more details, but don't have the book handy at the moment.

Wonder how long that's going to last. I'm sure some of the Chicago Mafiosos that survived Bug City aren't going to be too happy about Bugs in "The Family".

Probably about as happy as the italian Mafia is once they realize they aren't in charge anymore. Sure they make tough soldiers in a fight and a heck of a thread. "We have you grnaddaughter in a safe place. Want tyot keep her unchanged you will do ars you're told" BUT once they relized the bugs are working their own scheme, it gets ugly.(er)

And Ugliest when they realize she's already been changed.

Then there'll be going to the mattresses in full force. With Shadowrunner Outsourced Support.

I mean, after all, how many Chicago Families know of 'Runners that survived Bug City right beside them?

Wow, puts a totally different spin on old scenes of Bugsy and his tommy gun.

Who says that the Mafia is going to ever have friction with the bugs? Sacrificing your "soul" for "power" is kind of what the Mafia is all about. If the bugs in question can figure out how to guaranty flesh form transformations, maybe all the members will be totally OK with that. They keep their memories and gain tremendous power in exchange for undying, unquestioning loyalty to the family. Does that sound really that different from what the Mafia already offers? The power and the loyalty are just more now.

Now I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that there is one or more organized crime groups who are a bit more individualistic in their approach. Some of them will be Mafia splinters who refuse to make the change. Some of them will be opportunistic criminal groups from Albania and Turkey who capitalize on the fact that there are disaffected European Muslims who want to get ahead and don't want to assimilate into European society but refuse to sacrifice their Essence to spirits from the deep metaplanes that they regard as idolaters and demons.

But I think the assumption that the Mafia walked into a bug alliance as some sort of giant mistake where they didn't realize the ramifications of their actions is flat naive. I think that the folks at the top were probably acutely aware of exactly what they were getting. And what they were trading away.

-Frank

Possibly, but the friction between the Italian Families (Who would seem to support the Bugs) and the North American Families (Who remember Chicago very well!) are going to cause some...

...

WORK FOR SHADOWRUNNERS!!!

Well trading your soul for power is one thing, but having some critter use you as a human sock puppet sound a lot less appealing actually. Plus the Mafia are still sort of Roman Catholics for the most part, and I would suspect that the bugs look way too much like demons to be comfortable. Not to mention that Shadowrun kind of has the whole "Church Militant" thing going on. Course walking in to Ninja Nuns killing Bug Mafia would be surreal.

That would be a wild fight... I'd be pissed that I forgot to bring popcorn, personally.

The fact that the bugs are the ones in power is not going to be OK with those who used to be at the top. Crime bosses hate to give up power, not to mention that a group of outsiders managed to infiltrate their organization.

Another reason that I'm doing that Dunkie's will thing with the Popcorn.

Sounds the same to me. You keep your memories. To any outward inspection it's still you. You talk like you, you think like you, you give the answers to questions that you would give, and so on and so forth and round and round. Indeed, from the perspective of my own personal philosophy, such a merge would still involve me being me. The merge is a life event that I know ahead of time will give me super powers from the hive and make me extremely loyal to the hive (which is fairly reasonable, as the hive will continually be giving me super powers).

The only reason to believe it's anyone or anything other than you in that body is that the game tells us explicitly that metaphysically it isn't you any more. So basically you get a demon bug monster's soul and other than that it's you through and through. If you don't care what shape your "soul" is in, as one could logically conclude from the actions of anyone who murders people for money, then honestly what's the downside? Once you've told the priest that you aren't going to live cleanly and spend eternity in hell, why wouldn't you be willing to allow a monster to devour the tattered remains of your thrice damned soul in exchange for power?

The Devil is giving you shinies in exchange for your Essence. If you genuinely believe that your spirit isn't worth the paper it's printed on, what the hell do you care? You should thank the lucky stars that this particular demon isn't discounting your soul just because it's worthless.

-Frank

Yeah, but, again, the Chicago Families won't be so easily fooled. The Italian ones, sure...

Which, again, means mucho worko for the Shadowrunners. Deniable Assets would be very needed as spies are sent to see just how bad the Bug Issue "Back Home" really are.

Any Italian syndicate worth their salt wants their members being loyal to the Capos, not some bug demons. Of course, I agree with you that many people that accept blood money have a shattered conscience, but most humans rationalize the event in many ways. Some even become more religious. Remember Jules Winnfield from Pulp Fiction? He was talking a lot about God and miracles and stuff. Humans that aren't suicidal or chronically depressed don't like to think that they're dirty scumbags that have no hope of redemption.

The easiest way to overcome that is to make the Capos Queen bug demons.

Good idea, but how much does the Mafia know about the bug demons? Would the Capo know that his wife's soul has been shredded by the bug demon?
Also, does the Italian Mafia's mindset work any differently in Shadowrun than in the real world? Otherwise, one can only speculate. I'd assume that there would be some Mafiosos none too pleased to find out that their ranks were infiltrated, while some would notice that the bugs are the ones in power now, and better do as they say.

Again, I don't think their ranks are "infiltrated." The group turned themselves into a hive. They are infiltrating government agencies and corporations, but that's just their mob stuff. They aren't looking at some of their membership being secretly taken over by bug spirits - the mob as a whole has transformed themselves into a collection of bug spirits.

And yeah, if anyone refused to go along with the program, I'm sure that they were coerced or shot. But that's pretty much true of any organizational change in the Mafia.

They aren't pulling the Ares thing, where they hire out some hives and hope that the hives keep doing what they tell them to. They simply found that being bugs fit with their overall philosophy and just did that.

-Frank

So wait, Frank, the ENTIRE Italian Mafia has been "bugged?"

An entire Mafia in Italy has been bugged.

The others will get with the program, find a new way to compete, or be destroyed.

-Frank

Or invest in some Size 50 boots to stomp the bugs flat. Or a really big can of Raid (Insectiside).

For the first two options, unless it was OVERWHELMING opposition, the Capos aren't just going to roll over and get dominated. In the 1920s, the Mafia had plenty of bloody, brutal, wars. When a bunch of bug-people overwhelming a faction and threatening the other syndicates, I'm pretty sure the Mafiosos' answer will be the same as has it always been for 80+ years: intimidation and violence.

That is if the Italian Mob's mindset is similar/the same in 70 years. The mob could have significantly changed. But reading their return to power in SR4, I'd doubt that they'd have lost any backbone. In fact, I'd assume that they would have gotten a stronger one.

The whole deal is not going over. the bugs are not good, sure they provide power but you lose control and a good merge, you're gone. it isn't you and a spirit, you are GONE and there's an alien spirt wearing your body like a suit, because it has your brain it has access to the memories in therebut you are gone.

At first it would seem like cool power and then when they realize they are not calling the hsots, that they have no control over them onsters. then things get UGLY.

I think that there is another angle you aren't considering when you say they will have to accept the bugs to hold strong. no no no. Mobs are always looknig to bump each other off and take the turf. Usually when they get ugly the mafia comes down hard on them in this case, the law would love it. Stomping a bug hive? Sure, blow up the hotel. They mob might even get new toys from bug hating corps, like Aztechnology or Ares. "You guys providethe footsoldiers and a full report of how it works and we'll let you play with out new manportable laser/napalm bullets/insecticide/silly string

n/m

Well, what if a nunnery got infested with mantid spirits and got turned loose on the bug mafia?

Convent, a nunnery is something very very differnt. That aside I was traumatized neough by nuns growing up. I didn't htink you could possibly make them sound worse but...

Mantid-Spirit Infected Nuns that Practice Blood Magic.

There, I made it worse.

You mean "like Aztechnology." Ares has bugs on staff, and only hates hives that their staff hives don't get along with. They are the best at fighting bugs, but that does not mean that they actually have anything against bugs particularly. They would be the group most likely and able to parlay with the new Bug Mafia, because they have telepathic employees who speak that language.



This is a cyberpunk setting. People trade away their souls for power piecemeal all the time. How many people seriously refuse the power of Wired Reflexes just because they lose half their Essence? How many people don't? Getting invested with a bug spirit involves losing all of your Essence. But it's rather more power than a set of wires or some dermal plating. It's not Essence friendly, but it's super wiz. And people, rational people, would sign up for that with open eyes.

I would sign up for that. I personally don't care about my "spirit" and am concerned only with the contents of my brain. Given my radical materialist outlook, I'd allow a bug demon to devour my soul and wear my body like a Frank suit in a heartbeat. For me personally, the drawback would not be that my spiritual uniqueness would no longer exist, it would be that the merge might fail, leaving me retarded (hybrid) or nonexistent (trueform). So long as the process was risky, I wouldn't do it. So if they came to me in the late 2050s, when they got about one good merging in a hundred candidates, I would fight and die rather then go into the cocoon. But if they have a Queen on hand and the 2070s bug techniques where they can virtually guaranty a successful merge, I'm totally there.

And if you think I'd be alone in that assessment, you are naive. There are people, real people, who don't care about their souls or mental privacy and do care about being able to bounce bullets off their chest and fly. And I'm guessing that it isn't super hard to find these people in organized crime families.

-Frank

Count me in!

Isn't the Mafia traditionally Catholic?

Hey, just thought of another really bad job!

I don't see the italian mafia trading their souls for bug powers either. With magic coming back, and renewed faith (more miracles, magical orders in the church) and the good tradition of the roman catholic church of forgiving sins when you confess to the priest, I see that mob branch as getting stomped flat by the rest of the families, with church support.

Well the Mafia bugs would not be Ares bugs so they would want to stop the competition, right? It keeps Ares as your shopping source for 'tame' bugs and helps non-bug mafia clean out their competion.

It's always handy to have 'friends' in low places to whom only you and yours can truly relate.

You're assuming that all Italian mobsters are materialistic like you. Also, if the mobsters didn't care about their/each other's souls, why would many of them still be Catholic?



I can see how many can see "Magic" as miracles, not to mention the "Shamanic" tradition. Regardless, the La Costra Nostra has gone against many powerful enemies, so I'm sure that the Insect Mages will have a hard time fighting them. I don't think it will be a "Entire mob gets effortlessly taken over, with no large, long-lasting mob wars." Seems too anti-climatic.

One family infected by Bugs, hiding this fact away from the rest of the Families, I could see.

But, while the Families may not get along, they DO communicate with each other! And, again, I point to Chicago!

Yes, most of the big wigs got out before the wall came down, but a lot that stayed behind are some of the meanest, nastiest, and most respected fellows around I would bet!

Triads would be a better target, or the Vory, less experience with the Bugs. Italian Mafia? Big mistake.

Forcefully taking control of any crime syndicate is a big mistake, especially when other cells are not within your control. But the Insect Mages know that, and I'm sure they're in a "bring it on!" mode.

Ants at the very least. They have never forgotten what it means to make War...

Frank, to which book(s) would one go to find out more about Ares and their bugs?

I think it was Threats or Threats 2.

Threats 2.

It gets more out there. Reading some of the stuff in Street Magic and Augmentation makes a lot more sense with that in mind. For example: Montgomery of Info-Sante is a character from 2XS and Temple of the Sun.

-Frank

You know the fact that something is offering you something of value for your soul should really get you to reconsider its lack of value.

Well, even if I didn't care about my soul or privacy, I might care about ceasing to exist while someone else gets to run around with my body and memories, bouncing bullets of their new chest and flying around. They might be having fun but if I'm dead I don't see the advantage to me.


-karma

Those of us who are materialists don't think we would know the difference. It seems all of our memories, and most of our personality remain intact in exchange for the "upgrade". So really it seems like a win win.

But you are not there to do it. you're gone. it's like someone moves into your house, wears your clothes, reads your diary, e-mails your friends and drives your car but you're not there for it.

Spiritually speaking, yes. But if you don't give a rat's ass what happens to your spirit, then that hardly matters. Physically and mentally, that's still you. It emails your friends things that you would say, and the experiences it gains are continuous with the experiences and memories you have already accumulated.

From the standpoint of the materialist, the new creature is just as much "you" as the newly formed cells you'll grow in the next few days. I mean sure, a month from now all your skin will have fallen off and new skin will have grown in its place. In six months a complete turnover of neurotransmitters will have occurred and your brain will be an essentially newly formed organ made of new lipids and proteins and contorted into a new set of connections using electrical currents generated with new Potassium and new Sodium. But despite all this newness, the memories, the experience is still the same. And the materialist is willing to call this new creature as the same. Whether it got a new set of skin created from food-derived nutrients or a new aura grafted in from a distant metaplane crawling with insect demons.

Anyone who would be willing to become a Vampire for power (and there are many), should be willing to become a Fleshform Insect spirit for the same reason. Actually as things currently stand, the Insects are offering a much more compelling offer in 2071 than the International Vampire Conspiracy, because a well run Hive can offer a greater than 97% chance of you coming through the process with your memories intact, and the latest of Vampiric spawn creation techniques still outright kills nearly one in three.

-Frank

but it's not you. the part that is YOU deciding how you want to live your life, is gone. YOU, the person who wants to embrace the bug, is gone after that merge.

I don't know how much more clearly I can state this: from a materialistic perspective, the part of you that makes decisions is in fact your memories. Those are still there, so there's no reason for a materialist to treat an Insect Merge any differently from any other life changing event. Everything that a materialist believes is you is still in you.

It's exactly the same as Vampirism. Or awakening into an Adept for that matter. Spiritually, you are different. But a mundane materialist cannot tell and does not care.

-Frank