I honestly don't know anyone near me who's going. I'm not just in Oregon, I'm kinda in small-town Oregon.

I'm too busy for full replies but two things need mentioning at this point:

• No "template system" will be in Runners' Companion though the book will include at least a couple of alternative build systems.
• The aforementioned product (just so we don't get accused of plagiarism further down the line) we will be developing is not a template system, and without getting too deeply into how it works what I can say is it involves plug-and-play gear/skill set/implant modules or "packages" (much like those my group developed for their own use) with precalculated Build Point costs.

(Cthuludreams will be happy to know it will undoubtedly include gear).


Pity cause this might have been a solution and an appropriate venue, since I will be attending.

You could just nominate someone with a video camera, or a forum poster who is somewhat decent who is going.

Big surprise coming up! SR is not Wushu!

The only people I know that have trouble with chargen or the rules are those who don't bother to actually read the rules and can't be bothered to pay attention in general.

Friend of mine did a character couple of weeks ago. He hates to generate SR chars, because "it takes so fuckin' long". Unfortunatly, we had no hardcopys at hand, so he was using the ebooks, which are a pain in the ass to read/browse to him and me. He did not play for over a year and it was a concept he never played before (basically a thief guy). He was done in about an hour, complete with equipment. The only thing he was missing was a RFID eraser, because without much gaming experience you simply cannot tell how omnipresent RFIDs are and how much it can fuck you up to ignore them. Everything else was fine and the character works quite well.

Cool, I'll be buying both

Any chance on the upgrades to living spaces, as mentioned in a previous post (and if I had remembered it would have been quoted too)?

You can eat a steak in under two minutes. You can take a dump in under thirty seconds. You can kiss a romantic partner in less than a second. You can create a Web page in under five minutes.

It's all about the Project Triangle, baby.

No. Wushu is easy. SR4 is not.

Or people who try and divine the dev's actual intent. Check the vast number of threads here regarding confusion on character creation.

Then why can't he create a character in under 45 minutes, like he claimed?

I'll happily give him the full two hours, without guilt, so long as he admits he was exaggerating on the 45 minute claim.

And Smurf RPG is even easier than Wushu.

As for the reason why he can't create a character in under 45 minutes, it's because he said they did so with their cheat sheets and you don't want him to use them. It's also because it takes longer to create a character while explaining everything to an audience rather than doing it all alone.

Cain, I'm going, and I'm also from small-town Oregon. I'd be happy to watch Synner make a character for you and report back. I'm considered fairly trustworthy (my toddler has never caught me cheating at Chutes and Ladders). Plus I expect to be bothering... er, seeing... Synner while he's there.

Call me crazy, but I suspect that most people on this board would like to see constructive comments. Saying "SR4 character creation is too complex" without giving suggestions for improvement is not constructive.

I get that you don't like the existing ruleset for character creation. Or for called shots. Or the way skills are capped. Or the layout of the BBB. (etc, etc...) I get that, and can empathize with your frustration. But if you actually want SR4 to be better, let's hear some suggestions about ways to improve the system. Could you give examples of exactly what you mean when you say you'd like to see a "template system"? Specifically how do you think it should work? It might never become canon, but it could potentially open up new ideas that work their way into future releases and improve the overall game.

Also, it's worth noting that some of us like the complexity of SR4. I see the intricacy and depth of options in the ruleset as a good thing. If you don't then fine - you opinion is just a valid as [but no more valid than] anyone else's. Simple and fast does not always equal better.

There's a lot of people-- here, on RPG.net, and in this very thread-- who state they can't create a character in under two hours. Synner has the advantage of insider familiarity on the subject. We can't do anything about that, but we can make sure that he doesn't have too many more advantages over the rest of us peons. It's only fair to see what the game is like for the rest of us.


I have made many suggestions. For example, I've suggested a template system, similar (but not identical) to what existed in SR1-3. I've given suggestions on skill caps, called shots, layout of the BBB, Teamwork tests, and the longshot test, some of which have even been reported to be adopted by Dumpshockers. In fact, the ideas for Teamwork tests developed by myself and a lot of other Dumpshockers closely resembles what eventually went into the errata. I regularily write reviews for RPG.net, which have included glowing reviews of the work I especially appreciate: Adam and Jay Levine are specifically mentioned. (I think AH is mad at me because I slaughtered his pet section, even though I specifically mentioned the ACHE as well-done.)

Every time I make a suggestion, (and this is true for many people here), it tends to get buried in: "How dare you suggest holy canon isn't perfect! Infidel!" posts. Oh, and the same thing happens when I don't suck up to Synner. This is about personality, not ideas. I may be abrasive, but I attribute ideas to the people who made them, and not to the people I like.

The negative responses that you get, Cain, have little to do with a worship of Shadowrun and it's makers. They have everything to do with the fact that you are VERY abrasive, and take every opportunity to make the same complaints, over and over.

That may be the case for me, but how does that explain the others?

Since I'm not exactly familiar with your terminology, I'd like to know exactly what you mean by "template system". Is this the Priority System used in the previous editions? If so, what about the Priority system makes it easier to understand than the Point-based System? You want it similar, but not identical - what differences do you think there should be between what they had in SR3 and the "new, improved" version?

The priority system is what I'm referring to, yes. It's an elegant system that allows nearly as much flexibility as point buy, without nearly as much fiddliness. The SR4 system has much more things to buy, so the old one won't work; but but a simple: "Priority A equals X attribute points, Y skill points or Z resources" would be a handy shortcut. As it stands, there's no standards for how much is too little to spend on, say, skills; or too much, for that matter. Setting Priorities to be equal to X amount of BP, and saying what that BP will buy for you, would make life much easier.

Okay, I just got done making a magician melee specialist in under 45 minutes. Unfortunately, I didn't notice my camera had quit on me until I was ready to transfer my notes onto the character sheet (when I had 9:38 left to go), so I've only got the first six minutes of video. I do have the complete notes, though, and I'd be happy to provide either the scan of the notes or the video.

Ok, at least now we're both referring to the same page. I don't happen to agree with you, but at least I think I understand where you're coming from.

My personal wish for future character generation systems is that they might make something that more closely ties BPs to Karma points. (Like BECKS vs the SR3Generator).

I'm sorry for the offtopic, but this made me curious:



@Cain: please post (or sent me) a 400BP Magician (or Technomancer) that fullfill this requirements. You don't have to build one, just send me the mage of your group with 0Karma.


cya
Tycho

Yes, that seems like a tall order. My characters usually don't cover all of those bases - that's why they're in the team, so that other members can compensate for their weaknesses.

Edited: Because it was snippy...

Don't know if had been postet before, but here http://sirdoomsbadcompany.files.wordpress....anion-promo.pdf you can fnd the cover art, which looks really great!

Yes, that's a lovely picture. I'd just hope they don't assign art by chapter in future publucations, or, at the very least, choose artists whose styles match somewhat (and consequently, don't employ Mariusz G-something any more ... no offense to him as an artist, but his biomech stuff sticks out horribly between the other artworks).

Sometimes I think it'd be nice if all artists agreed on what metahumans look like. Some orks and trolls look like humans with tusks and horns, other look like mutant creatures, other could fit in a traditional fantasy world.
But sometimes, I think it's nice to have a large panel of styles to choose from, after all imagination is the name of the game, so it's have some room for it.

There's the "human looking" edge, so orks at least can look like humans with tusks. There's also cosmetic surgery capable of easily changing one's appearance.

I thought she was an Elf

Where do you find this stuff?

Also, tangential question to the moderators: do you add more icon selections to DS as new artwork is published?

I don't know what to say. If my g/f sees that she'll go off on one about men being sexist pigs again.

I thought that went without saying.

And, hey, she's an empowered woman. Got a gun and a razor. Not like she's some Damsel in Distress!

I'm curious too how found that one hehe, or had someplace to keep an eye on? What about Ghost Cartels cover, thought that was coming first? Nice pic by the by.

EDIT:
NM found it!
http://sirdoomsbadcompany.files.wordpress....rtels-promo.pdf

Or this one!!
http://sirdoomsbadcompany.files.wordpress....ities-promo.pdf

Hm... going into a jungle with just a pistol as a weapon strikes me as a bit... careless.

With a pistol and wearing poet shirts hehe.

Didnt have to use links above, covers on CGL sell sheets link now too.

Well I am really looking forward to the Runners Companion and it seems to include everything I would like it to.

On the subtopic for the troll-nations here...

I play SR since Ed.1 and I like SR4 the most of the 4 editions. It is quite an easy System (at least for me) and definatly easier than its predecessors - luckily without losing complexity. No one can deny, that there are easier Systems, but easier does equal better. Also I always liked the pointbased character creation and am able to create a viable character in under 45 minutes (statwise) - with ease that is. Still I tend and like to invest more time into the generation of characters, as it is more of a floating process. Also I see the stats not just as stats so I might create multiple iterations while I flesh out the details of the concept and background.

As for Caine... I like discussions and criticism can be a very good thing, especially when constructive. Ofcause it does not have to be constructive, but constant repetition of personal dislikes is, in most cases however, not necessary and somewhat unnerving. I don't like to say that, and you won't like to hear that, but I'd rather rate you a troll of somesort.
Although trolls shouldn't be fed you've got masses of attention, including mine - be happy with that, keep it to that and consider returning back to the topic of this thread, please.

Hmmm. There's been mention of the book covering 'the infected' but the sell sheet only mentions ghouls. I was hoping to see vampires, banshees and others covered as well...

We might have some of those too...

Then tell her what a sexist she is.


How do Banshees now work anyway? Like a blood-drinking elf vampire with a scary howl? Or do they drain essence via scare, as they did in 2?

Sweet.

I dunno, I'm generally rather sensitive about my RPG art not being pr0n, but this cover doesn't seem at all like that. In fact, people - women, even - actually dress like that (well, maybe not exactly like that, but it's no chainmail bikini) and sit like that. Maybe my standards are low, since I started roleplaying with D&D, but this rates lower on the objectification scale than most issues of Cosmopolitan, so I can't bring myself to worry too much.

I'm really looking forward to the book - I think more fluff on running in the 70s is a good idea, considering how much of the setting (as opposed to the rules) is dependent on outdated, 2nd & 3rd ed fluff. I'm also glad that Synner mentioned new Qualities (way back...before we visited the Black Forest) because character creation seems to demand some negative qualities, and right now, there are way too many people with allergies to sunlight or trout or something. It's not very diverse.

Also, I want drakes, but we knew that.

Now now, shadowkids. SR has never been guilty of a Crotch of Doom shot, for which we can all be silently grateful.

Wow, cameltoe. If my parents saw that book in my apartment I'd be horribly embarrassed. I pray SR never goes that route.

I think that Shadowrun can use some more cheesecake.

If it worked for Wizards of the Coast, then surely it will work for Catalyst Game Labs.

Can't wait to see the info on the 3 new metahuman variants presented in Runner's Companion, together with most of the variants from Shadowrun Companion !!

The 3 new ones were mentioned in a recent chat and are called:

-Nartaki (India).
-Haruman (India).
-Xapiri Thëpë (South America).

No mention of which "main races" they are variants of yet.

I think that an easier way to explain it would be say you're "buying" Karma with cash... You donate it to a charity... Doing a good deed earns you good Karma. Say you're going the other way with it and "trading" Karma for cash... You recieve a windfall of some kind... Win the lottery, find a suitcase of 50's.. It's easy to explain it... If the system's going to be there of corse someone's going to find a way to abuse it... If you don't like the system don't use it in your games... I already have a system for this established in my games since I started running in SR2.

Crotch of doom comes in many flavors.

Some would say that that drawing a fired-from-the-hip machinegun so large on the page that you don't have room to even get the troll's legs anatomically correct certainly qualifies.

If it was me trying to figure it out, I might try using Google on the metatype names to see if they refer to any particular creature from folklore.

Yes, more positive and negative qualities would be good to have.

[quote name='Synner' date='May 29 2008, 05:44 AM' post='686529']
Runners' Companion is in fact in the final stages of writing and most of the content is set. It will include new and updated character options in the form of metavariants


You just made me a very happy man. Metavarients were fun in 3rd ed.

"Who wants to shave the hairy elf shaman (night one) when he's off doing his astral thingymy?"

Huh. I always thought that was a dwarf when I had that book. Didn't remember seeing the tusks...

To be fair, who says that trolls are immune to the many of forms of dwarfism?

Dwarf with SURGEd troll-like features.

Well, we have a Male "Crotch of Doom", now we need a Female one (Dwarf with SURGEd troll-like features) just to make it fair and non-sexist!

If we have Eye Candy in both sexes, we're not being discriminatory. Just perverted.

Just to put things in perspective, Nartaki are prostitutes and exotic dancers. In their mythological meaning, they are nature spirits who do that. Personally, I would have used Apsara or Gandharva. In any case, you're probably looking at a variant of Elf, because that's pretty much what they are. You know, when it's not just a word for pretty ladies that you are paying money in exchange for sex.

The Haruman are monkey people. Personally, I would have used the word Bandar Log (literally "Monkey People") because they are literally called that, while Haruman is simply the leader and divine champion of the monkey people. Other fun names for this character include Hanuman and Goku (yes, Dragonball is about the adventures of one these characters). No frickin clue, as different Bandar come in sizes ranging from marmoset to gorilla and builds both muscular and gracile. So um... yeah. They are clearly hairy, and may have tails, but beyond that I couldn't predict. If I had to rely only on my psychic powers I would suspect them of being a variety of Ork.

The Xapiri Thëpë are tiny spirit people of Amazonia and they are therefore almost certainly a variant of Dwarf.

-Frank