Yeah, I have it pre-calcated as formulas in an excel sheet so I can drop in my 'hacking software package' and my 'non hacker software package' and my 'body 3/4/5 armour packages' googles, guns, etc, but thats really just a band aid fix because it breaks as soon as I try and make something that deviates slightly from cookie cutter.

Which is why I always use the same guns because I see no practical difference between the the SMGs in terms of flavour and one is good and the others are not - actually one in arsenal is better but is also 16F so thats not really useful.

Like I tried to make an orc that wore a bunker suit and had a shotgun and an axe. It was extremely annoying because the armour mods pretty much only help impact or both, which is fine in the basic book because you have high ballistic low impact armours. Not so much in arsenal because there is a sudden rash of high impact low ballistic armour.

Funny, but I seem to recall that it was you that 'threw down the gauntlet' by making the original challenge, and Synner was the person that accepted said challenge.



I recall someone asking you for a definition of a 'working character', which you then provided and then subsequently Synner quoted above. Is a 'viable' character different from a 'working' character in your opinion? If so, in what ways do they differ?



Why do you feel the need to change the parameters in your favor now that someone has accepted your challenge? Is it because you are worried about being proven wrong?

And before you go accusing me of stalking you purely for the purplses of slamming your every post (as you have done before), I will say that I have made what I consider a decent effort to not bother responding to your posts at all, since it seems to distress you so much. Be that as it may though, I am still allowed to post my thoughts, so I have decided to do so. Hopefully you won't get too upset by my actions.

Actually, yes.

In a standard game, a viable character (one people would be willing to play, as opposed to a "working" character that should be able to survive) needs to have at least one specialty at 10-15+ dice, and have all the other bases covered with pools of 8-10 dice. The main bases here being: social, combat, defense, sneaking, and technical. All these are needed for a shadowrunner to do his job. Sometimes you can get away with letting one or two of those areas slide, by cross-compensating in other areas or getting the right contacts. But for a character to be truly "viable"-- capable of handling a shadowrun-- he needs to be able to address all of those areas well.


I didn't set the parameters of this challenge. Heck, I didn't make it at all. All I said was that I hadn't seen anyone attempt to prove me wrong; Synner got offended and took it as a challenge. His statements basically amount to: "I can do it in 45 minutes. Give me two hours." I called him on that once before, and he tried to weasel out of it. So, I'm going to call him on it again, and see what his reply is. I'm not flaming the guy, insulting his intelligence or his mother, or saying that he's got an axe to grind. I am pushing him back to his original claim, though.

Actually you threw down the gauntlet I just picked it up. This may turn out to be a problem, since I have no intention of getting a webcam for this purpose. I'll give other solutions some thought, because I don't honestly think a webcam would resolve any of your trust issues anyway (too many ways to cheat).


I'm unclear on whether this means I can't use the indexes and tables from the books, or whether I can.


You may not have stipulated what you think a viable character is but you've defined what you believe a "working character" is. That's good enough for me.


A viable shadowrunner character at my table depends on the campaign/adventure we're running and the dynamics (and size) of the team as a whole. As a very vague guideline all that's needed is dice pool of 6+ in a number of essential skills (infiltration, perception, dodge or gymnastics, computer, and either a combat or a social skill), without these the other players in the group probably wouldn't accept a character as a regular team member. They also need at least a couple of contacts, ideally more than that. That's about it though. I'd prefer it if he/she had dice pools of 10+ in the essential skillsets relating to his chosen field of specialization, though I certainly don't enforce it.

I tailor adventures and opposition to the runners I have, and certainly don't shoehorn players into situations where their characters are out of their depth (unless of course that's the point of the encounter). For their part my players know that if they build optimized, top-of-their-field runners they'll face appropriate opposition and missions, and if they build "working characters" they'll have suitable challenges for that powerlevel. The choice at any given time is theirs not mine.


I am confident I can turn something out in under two hours, even on my worst day. I do not believe myself to be infallible and since I've never claimed anything to that effect I see no need to change any parameters. I simply claimed that your statement that no one can build an SR character in under two hours "including the line developer" is false and that I could prove it by doing just that. So why up the ante? I'm well in my comfort zone. And its certainly not my fault that you are no longer certain of the statement you made.

[edited to reflect changes in Cain's post] I have said that at my table we do take as little as 45 minutes to build an SR4 character from scratch. I have also stated that in the 3 years we've been playing, as we've become more experienced with the system, we have adopted a number of solutions that speed up our chargen process (such as the expanded quick reference table based on p.88 which I mentioned above and which has become an integral part of our creation process, but also stuff like our pregenerated "packages"). For some reason you've decided this gives my guys an unfair advantage even though it is something that anyone who wants can do and gain the same universal benefit. If you're arbitrarily removing options that are acceptable at my table, I do not see a reason why I should limit myself to a "best time performance." Fortunately I don't have to to prove your statement is false. 2 hours was the time frame you set, and that's all I have to beat to make my point.


The problem has never been that you don't think that SR4 is the holy grail. The problems, simply put, are that there is nothing "constructive" about your criticism and that you are unable to recognize that you are wrong even in the face of evidence.

I get plenty of constructive criticism, I actually enjoy it. Some of my fondest moments as a developer and freelancer have been huge (constructive) discussions with Frank Trollman, Ancient History, mfb and others. Even the occassional constructive feedback from people like SLJames/Crimsondude has proved useful and enlightening. Just yesterday I recieved some serious (constructive) criticism from someone whose opinion I value on a product we both worked on. It made me go back to the material being discussed and make several changes. Likewise, constructive criticism—well-thought out feedback and suggestions on fixes or interpretations—voiced on Dumpshock and elsewhere regarding recent books will manifest in upcoming errata and FAQs. Unfortunately, you aren't a "constructive critic" but simply a naysayer. Your opinions are unrelentingly negative, biased, uncompromising, and offer little that might be construed as constructive or useful feedback.

SR4 is by no means perfect, and its certainly not holy canon. Fortunately its also not as problematic as you believe it to be.

Fair enough.




You're also requiring him to keep up a running commentary, which takes time and effort away from completing the task at hand. You made a challenge with certain particular parameters and Synner accpeted that specific challenge. Seems to me that you keep trying to stack the deck in your favor.

You can use the books, and only the books, like the rest of us. Not everyone has the luxury of free PDFs and hardcopies, so one copy of each book would be the most fair simulation of what character creation is like for the average player.

We're not too far off on this point. Please see my response to Fortune, and tell me if my definitions work for you.

Nun-uh. You claimed that character creation took you 45 minutes, and that the only reason why you wanted the full two hours was because of any "curve balls" I might throw at you. If you're "well in your comfort zone", then why not push things a little? The waiting audience here won't need to wait a few weeks for your schedule to clear up. Mind you, I understand it if you're busy, routinely work through lunch or something like that. But if you have the 45 minutes free, I'd love to see you try and pull it off.


I, and many other "naysayers", have been the main force behind several Dumpshock arguments that resulted in rules changes. You know full well which one's I'm referring to. I wrote a glowing review of Jay Levine's work on Runner Havens on Rpg.net. I've also complimented both your and AH's work in this very thread, as well as tried to get discussion started on something constructive.

People seem to like controversy, and I'm a controversial figure. None of the positive things I post are ever noticed. But that doesn't change the fact that criticism is still constructive, rather it comes from someone you like or not. There's a lot of Dumpshockers who are behind many of the changes to SR4, and I don't see any of them getting credit. So, you can continue to call us "naysayers" and mine our ideas all you like. Just don't think we haven't noticed.

anyone who owns 1 copy of the PDF, paid for or not, [edit] (this is intended to denote that synner's access to free copies is irrelevant, and not that people can illegally obtain copies) [/edit] can print off the indexes for their own personal use. anyone who owns the printed book can get a photocopy, though for some it may be more difficult (i happen to have a printer here that doubles as a photocopier, and it is far from top of the line. others may be stuck using libraries, or even professional shops that charge you quite a bit. regardless, it is entirely possible to get a photocopy of the already-provided indexes and tables right from the main books).

Do you have one?

i have a PDF and a printer. i can have one in a couple of minutes, tops.

That's not what I asked.

Point is, most people don't have a dedicated copy of the index; and even though they could make one, they probably wouldn't be doing it in the middle of character creation. If they did, they'd probably take as much time as they'd save.

but seriously my entire gaming group has a computer and uses excel to make characters in every RPG we play, but you've already excluded those.

From a poll on enworld, I gather a significant proportion of all gaming groups use a laptop during gameplay. Now thats self selecting for computers as its an online forum, but I seriously doubt that most gamers do not use computers , laptops and technology given that WoTC is pitching 'look, its online' as a significant part of its offering.

Letting someone use the index is hardly a problem when most people use a computer. That and most people new to char gen do it in roups, anecdotally.

Rhetorical question: Is it possible to have a thoughtful productive discussion in Dumpshock without Cain barging in and crapping all over everything?

the fact that someone else wouldn't necessarily choose to print one off is irrelevant. synner would, and therefore for him it is perfectly reasonable to do it. if you want to arbitrarily start giving him pointless handicaps, then why don't you just require him to do it without reading any books at all, because an illiterate person wouldn't be able to read the books. you challenged him to make a character quickly, and that's part of how he does it. at most, you could argue that he would have to take the time at the start of creating his character to print off his sheets, which means that while he's deciding background or what the basic framework he's gonna hang his character around is going to be, he can be printing off the relevant pages, and by the time he's ready to do anything he needs the indexes for, they're already done. but even that would be stupid, because we're not discussing how mr. totallyunpreparedandunqualifiedtomakeacharacter handles things, we're discussing whether or not someone (in this case synner) could create a character using within a certain time frame (which you seem to insist on reducing from your original challenge, since apparently if it's possible for him to do it that's not good enough for you).

honestly, it's times like this i wonder why i even bothered to unmute you in the first place. it would be nice if i could just filter out the half of your posts where you take an unreasonable stance and start trying to change the parameters of your challenge to one where you somehow 'win'. alas, any filter capable of separating out such garbage would probably be intelligent enough to not want to read it either, and would probably just mute you also.

someone let me know when he starts making sense again, please? i'm not gonna bother paying attention to his nonsense this time around.

I'm still trying to figure out why he post's here at all. Maybe he gets some kind of perverse pleasure from trolling on forums...

Reported.

I'm not holding a gun to his head and saying he can't use an index. I'm saying he has to use the index in the books, just like the rest of us.


Once again, I didn't make the challenge. Synner did. He made the claim that he could create a character in 45 minutes, then asked for two hours. He also is asking to have his private concordance already set and ready for him. Since the average shadowrun player won't have his private notes, or insider information, I don't think it's fair that he get to use those either.

He asked for the challenge, not me. I'm just saying what's fair and what's not.

Good for you.

To get back to the original purpose of the thread. I wasn't a huge fan of the metavarients in SR3, but I do like the idea of giving optional rules for playing infected, shifters, etc.

No, you made the challenge by stating no one has "put their money were there mouth is" and proven that they could construct a working character in under two hours. Synner accepted your challenge, and now you are trying to alter the parameters after it has been accepted. It does not matter how fast Synner claims to be able to complete the character for this challenge - be it 20 minutes or an hour and 59 minutes - both are under the two hour limit.

You are trying to guilt him into doing it during one of his lunch breaks by claiming people will not need to wait - I seriously doubt more than at most two or three people, other than yourself, would be the least bit bothered by a few weeks wait for this.

Put simply, you issued a challenge. Once it was accepted, you are trying to change said challenge in favor of Synner's failure. You are the only one claiming it is unfair for him to use his personally created charts & resources for this. And finally, you are the only one involved in this discussion who believes character generation always takes over two hours.

I don't get it, Cain; what this whole "challenge" going to prove? With enough practice and knowledge of the game mechanics, you can quickly create characters. For example, in D&D, after 8 years of 3rd edition, I could crank out a viable character, stats and all, in less than 10 minutes, where, when I first started out, it took me lots of book-learnin' to make a character on my first go.

so, ah, sorry for going back on topic, but i thought of something i'd really like to see: hideout customization. i'd love to see rules and pricing guidelines for adding panic rooms, escape routes, and traps to my own personal space. perhaps even going so far as to set up a briefing/command room.

should we golf clap for you now?

Once again, and contrary to what the anti-Cain crowd is trying to say, I didn't make the challenge. Synner apparently got offended at me saying that templates are faster than point buy, and took us on this tangent. I was trying to steer the discussion to the point where we could debate creating a template system for SR4, but I was attacked by trolls first.

I'm still not clear on the reasoning behind this. You specifically called out the line developer. Why should he not be able to use anything at his disposal?


Just because you keep saying it, doesn't make it true.

Your quotes ...


This is a very clear example of one of your challenges.


This one is also similarly clearly another example (in the same post) of you calling Synner out.


As to the whole '45 minute thing, it was originally mentioned by Synner about his players, as seen in this quote here ...



Once again, you were the first to claim he could not do it. And then you began to list all kinds of limitations on when, how, and with what resources he could go about creating the character.


Yet again, you are the challenger. Traditionally, it is seen as fair for the person that is challenged should have the choice of 'weapons', or in this case 'creation tools'.

This is moot though, as Synner has already agreed to your 2 hour challenge, and has not actually argued about any of your 'fair' limitations (bar the web cam, for which I don't blame him at all), but merely questioned your meaning and intent on the specifics of a couple of items.

Pretty sure we've all read the posts, and have come the conclusion, one of us either 'forgot' they they posted, or is 'creatively reinterpreting' what they posted. I'm pretty sure its not the rest of us, so that leaves......

That is a pretty blatant challenge. So, shut up about never issuing one - intentionally or not, you did

I didn't say who started the "challenge," I only asked what it was going to prove.

Moved.

QFT!

By now it is just ridiculous...
Everybody can buy a pdf an battlecorps or elsewhere and everybody can use is for character generation.

I am confident that Synner can easily build a solid char within 2h, but in the end you probably stat that his char as "not working" because he is not min/maxed through the roof.

cya
Tycho

When I challenge somebody, I flat-out challenge them. I confess to making snide comments, but Synner was the one who took it as a personal affront and challenged me.


I'll deal with the web cam issue, but the fact is that we're not actually arguing over the limitations. I've said what I've like to see, not: "Do it my way or be revealed as the cheat you are". See, I'm not the one who issued the challenge. Synner is the one with something to prove, here.

And my point is also proven: my polite discussion about a template system is ignored yet again, in favor of a misunderstood tangent that happens to be controversial. No wonder why I have a reputation, people ignore it when I play nice.

Edit: Missed SH's post. Sorry, I'll get to it later.

Yourself Thanks for admitting it!

Don't keep me waiting!

Bullshit. We have already pulled out the appropriate quotes, and you specifically targeted him with a challenge.

Synner has nothing to prove. What he intends to do is disprove your false accusations about how poor/long the SR4 character generation is.

Your "polite discussion" was not ignored, nor was it polite. Nothing was misunderstood by anyone here other than you. You are the one that derailed the thread in this manner, & you are the one that 'hid' your previous topic under trolling. You also clearly dismissed everyone's (other than yourself) opinion on how effective/fast/good/bad/whatever, stating quite clearly that your opinion is fact. Considering how many people disagree with you, and the subject is objective (meaning there is no fixed *fact*), you painted yourself as an uncaring, uncompromising, moronic asshole.

What you have here isn't so much a template system, as it is an archetype build system. I'd have to see more to make a decent judgment call. Still, it looks like a good start!

When one uses the term 'us' it is generally assumed if not outright stated by the definition of the word to be inclusive to themselves.
You're inability to realize this, or your active choice to ignore it cause me to question either your sincerity or your mastery of the English language.

Moved post to another topic.

No, I made a snide comment. Please show me where I said: "Synner, I challenge you to create a viable character in under two hours." Oh, wait, I didn't.

The facts are clear. I tried to play nice, and was ignored. I make a mildly controversial remark, and all hell broke loose. And people complain about me? I'm not the one issuing challenges, or kissing feet to suck up. I want to see a functional character creation system in SR4, and by that I mean a template system.

(Note also that I'm trying to keep this thread on topic.)

Your inability to recognize smileys causes me to question your mastery of sarcasm.

I think we are all pretty clear on the challenge situation, judging by the majority of the (non-Cain) posts on the topic.

As to whether Synner has something to prove, I just don't see it. But keep telling yourself that as well if it makes you feel better.

As to your wish to discuss a template system, why don't you start a new thread dedicated to that very topic? In that way, any useful discussion on the matter won't get lost amongst the actual Runner's Companion stuff, and the clutter of your challenge in this thread. I know that I am interested in the topic, and that seems to me to be the best way to proceed, if you do indeed want to 'play nice' and seriously discuss the matter.

Can I take multiple stats templates?

Moved.

They could if they didn't cheat

The focus area should be gear though. The rest of it is pretty dang easy by comparison tbh.

Back on topic, I'd like to see rules for both hardware and software A.I.'s, and whether you can resurrect someone by having a greater plant spirit regen their body while you go off on a meta plainier quest to find their soul, then maybe reinstall it using cybermancy or something?

So are extra tools created or obtained during the 45 minute character generation window okay? I could fairly easily make a character then, and definitely in 15 minutes including obtaining tools excluding gear, though now I could do gear.

You have a good idea. The problem is that I'd like to see a template system in Runner Companion, which has everything to do with the topic at hand. Synner's challenge to me has nothing to do with it. Since Synner issued the challenge, it's up to him to create another thread to move his topic to. I don't feel it's my job to move an on-topic discussion to another thread to make way for Synner's tangent.

So why not settle for the next best thing and have a thread about it made by fans? I just made such a thread right here.

Shrug. Synner has already stated that a 'template system' will not be appearing in Runner's Companion, but will be released in the future in some other, yet-to-be-named capacity.

Once again, you are the one that brought it to this point, you are the one who issued the challenge (and even if your heavily distorted version somehow turns out correct, & Synner made the challenge, you are the one that suggested it), and you have made as many posts on "Synner's tangent" as all the rest of us combined, pushing it ever farther away from the original topic.

Regardless, I am done dealing with your idiocy, to put it nicely, and would strongly suggest that if you want to continue this argument, take it to another thread - of your or another's making.

Cain--There is an apparent disconnect between what some people, like Sweaty hippo, see as a template system and your vision. Can you post some examples or a clearer description of what you mean by a Template system?

I could create "templates" for a street sam and say that it has 1 physical stat at 6 and the others at 5. Two Combat focused skills at five, 1 skill at 4, 2 skill groups at 3 and 4 skills at 4.

Add 2 specializations to combat skills of choice

Set all mental attributes to 3.

The list continues...

Personally, I would find such a system constrictive and dull as compared to the standard pt buy where I weigh out investment in the character's karma expenditure vs immediate ability. From there, I look at what the other players are bringing to the table--maybe I can squeeze some points into Data Search and Browse since our hacker is going to be focussed on a more smash and grab approach--both in his hacking and the fact that he uses a shotgun.

This all shows that each of us walk into a scenario with very different sets of expectations for how we are going to build characters. My earlier statement of having a playable character down in 45 minutes, and then tinkering on it some more wasn't good enough for you. Your expectation is that all tinkering will be complete before play begins and thus it must be counted into the time to make a character. The problem with that is that as each of us makes a character or plays a character, we learn. That learning curve impacts later choices and decisions--it's true in RL and it's true in character creation.

If you are so concerned about cheating, how about GenCon Indy. I can sit down and make a character without any additional aids, and in under an hour be willing to play that character in a Mission. You can sit down across the table and watch, hell, anyone who shows up and really wants to watch me make a character can join in. I'll share my books and have a few extra pencils ready.

I'll do that!

I live in Oregon. It's a bit of a trip for me.

I'm in San Diego. It's fair to say the distance is equal. Barring your presence, would you nominate a proxy?