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limejello10512
One of my players is playing a werewolf adept and we decided after innitiating that it would be very werewolfesque to give him the canabalize metamagic. He doesn't want to play an evil character, but we don't really see why devouring someone villanous is evil. Are there in game penalties I missed? I can't think of any actual negative effects.
Screamin Demon
Well...
It depends on what kind of game you are running. Generally it is assumed that thinking of your own, or any sentient species, as food would definitely fall to the darker side of 'evil'. Even if someone is villanous, he still gets the basic rights afforded by good guys to others of your species. Its not okay to hit girls no matter how hard they hit you first. But its your game, you need to set the morality bar and abide by it.
The best argument I would have against a cannibalizing shadowrunner is that it is definitely unprofessional, and would possibly generate a bad reputation because it might become the first thing people talk about when his name is brought up. Watch out for that freaky deaky people eating Xghoul.
Shiloh
Blood magic can be said to be inherently risky, at a metaphysical level. "Just one bite" can soooo easily become "Sapient being! Nom nom nom!".
Stahlseele
well, it is yucky and leaves stains O.o
i'd probably sooner let a ghoul character use that meta-magic than a were-wolf though o.O
ornot
QUOTE (Shiloh @ Jun 3 2008, 09:33 AM) *
Blood magic can be said to be inherently risky, at a metaphysical level. "Just one bite" can soooo easily become "Sapient being! Nom nom nom!".


There should be a LOLcat for that.
phantom
QUOTE (Shiloh @ Jun 3 2008, 02:33 AM) *
Blood magic can be said to be inherently risky, at a metaphysical level. "Just one bite" can soooo easily become "Sapient being! Nom nom nom!".


LOL!
Ryu
The negative effect is that you are a cannibal. LoneStar will double the intensity of its work on your crimes because of the potential PR fallout. Individual officers will do their best because they do not want to be eaten on the job, especially not after they saw the face of the forensic mage discovering what you did.
Plus, "Connect the cases where hearts got eaten" is so easy that it should get you points for distinctive style.
Malicant
Consuming the lifeforce of a living being is always corrupting you, no matter if you are trying to do a noble deed. Also, to learn how to do that, you need to have severel bumbs in your head that make you... less nice.

Blood Magic is like using the Dark Side of the Force. It might look like you are simply throwing lightning, which is not evil, but actually you are throwing energies that look like lightning fueled by your hatred. Which is Evil. And so is any application of Blood Magic. It's part of the game/setting.

You are free to change that in your game of course, but even than the Canibalize mechanics will suck big time. You're not even really canibalizing anything with it. Who rote that stuff, anyways?
Ryu
I´d either seriously expand the time that power works (remove karma expenditure and limit sum of points to magic), and/or allow you to eat the flesh and reap the benefits at a later point.
Malicant
I personally hate Karma costs for temporary boni. One reason why I never liked Anchoring.
Fuchs
Fellow Runners can tend to kill blood mages (out of principle, or to kill/kidnap them for the bounty).
apollo124
Yeah, the Dunkelzahn's will bounty on blood mages is a big downside, to me. And while it may be slightly more good to eat a drug dealer than a nun, it's no less evil.
ArkonC
Only because we label it as evil, animals eat each other all the time, no one goes around saying they're evil...
Even human sacrifices aren't always considered evil by the people being sacrificed...
In SR term, I think you could even make the case that toxics aren't evil per se...
This isn't Star Wars where the source of power defines if it's good or evil, indipendantly of intent or action, it's shadowrun where everything is a shade of grey and doing the wrong thing for the right reasons doesn't make you evil, at most it makes you tragic and misguided, but you may be percieved as evil by others...
My point is that if you and your player agree there is no intrinsic evil in blood magic, then he could use it and not be evil, if you decide blood magic is intrinsically evil, well, you get my point...

2 more of my nuyen.gif
Malicant
Blood Magic is Evil. It is not natural, it is not social, it is not a question of morals or ethics. It simply is Evil. Not because you sacrifice someone (you can actually sacrifice yourself), but because you use life-energy-stuff to empower your magic.
A Blood Mage that has never used and will never use that techniques on other living beings is still a sick, twisted SoB as long as he uses those techniques.

QUOTE
This isn't Star Wars where the source of power defines if it's good or evil
Actually, Magic is a lot like the Force. Shamans for example can go toxic just by being exposed to a polluted forrest. Makes you wonder, nay?
ArkonC
First of, you might try reading "The Perception of Evil" on P.136 in Street Magic...

So you are saying that your moral judgement is superior to everyone's who doesn't agree with you?
Shiloh
QUOTE (Malicant @ Jun 3 2008, 03:46 PM) *
By CanonBlood Magic is Evil. It is not natural, it is not social, it is not a question of morals or ethics. It simply is Evil. Not because you sacrifice someone (you can actually sacrifice yourself), but because you use life-energy-stuff to empower your magic.
A Blood Mage that has never used and will never use that techniques on other living beings is still a sick, twisted SoB as long as he uses those techniques.

Emphasis for fixing... Canonically, Blood Magic has a cost: it eats your soul and eventually you will lose whatever scruples and morals that initially restrained you from sucking the soul out of anyone convenient. If a bounty hunter doesn't get you first.

In canon

If it ain't like that in your game, that's fine, but from a metagaming point of view, metamagics that powerful need a downside, and you should probably explain to any veteran player that not all the assumptions they bring may be true; Canonically, there's lakes of evidence that Blood Magic screws you up: you can't handle it - it's not just a cold.

(Cookie for other oldtimers who spot the reference).
Fortune
Can a Shapeshifter (which is a totally separate species, unrelatd to metahumanity) technically be called a cannibal for eating metahumans? Wouldn't he have to eat other shapeshifters for that label to apply?
Shiloh
QUOTE (Fortune @ Jun 3 2008, 03:57 PM) *
Can a Shapeshifter (which is a totally separate species, unrelatd to metahumanity) technically be called a cannibal for eating metahumans? Wouldn't he have to eat other shapeshifters for that label to apply?

Depends if you're calling them a cannibal for eating sapient beings or eating their own species...
Malicant
QUOTE (ArkonC @ Jun 3 2008, 04:52 PM) *
First of, you might try reading "The Perception of Evil" on P.136 in Street Magic...

So you are saying that your moral judgement is superior to everyone's who doesn't agree with you?

To say Blood Magic is Evil is not moral judgement. It is simply stating a fact. If a Priest sacrifices 1000 people to his gods, it is murder, moral judgement can be made, yadda, yadda. If he sacrifices those people and uses their life/death to empower a spell, it is Blood Magic, and that is Evil. It's neat, clean, simple. wink.gif

[edit]I should also mention, that "perception of evil" does not really apply. You do not turn twisted, because someone thinks your practices are evil and you don't switch from being twisted to not twisted when going from a place that thinks of you as evil to a place that actually like what you do. Also, a Blood Mage is always twisted, even if he is, say a vampire and no one would blame him for using blood in his magic, or maybe a Aztlani Priest, who sacrifice people for the good of the nation.

QUOTE (Shiloh @ Jun 3 2008, 04:54 PM) *
Emphasis for fixing... Canonically, Blood Magic has a cost: it eats your soul and eventually you will lose whatever scruples and morals that initially restrained you from sucking the soul out of anyone convenient. If a bounty hunter doesn't get you first.

In canon

If it ain't like that in your game, that's fine, but from a metagaming point of view, metamagics that powerful need a downside, and you should probably explain to any veteran player that not all the assumptions they bring may be true; Canonically, there's lakes of evidence that Blood Magic screws you up: you can't handle it - it's not just a cold.

(Cookie for other oldtimers who spot the reference).

Well, well, isn't that Captain Obvious speaking. Talking about Blood Magic in a Shadowrun forum should make it pretty clear that we are actually talking about Shadowrun, making it moot to mention In Canon. *grumble, grumble* It totally ticks me of when people pull the "Oh? We are talking about canon. Well, in my game everything is different." manuever.

QUOTE (Shiloh @ Jun 3 2008, 05:08 PM) *
Depends if you're calling them a cannibal for eating sapient beings or eating their own species...

Shapeshifter that eat humans are not cannibals. Shapeshifters that eat Shapeshifters (of their own kind) or the animals they are based on would be cannibals. Cannibalism is the act of eating your own species, not the act of eating something with the capacity to think.
Eryk the Red
Cannibal not being a technical term sort of makes debating what is technically a cannibal moot. It connotes someone who eats people, but as lingo it is based in a world with only one (apparent) sentient species. Anthropophagy is a technical term analogous to cannibalism. It refers to eating humans. A shapeshifter who eats humans is debatably a cannibal, and definitely anthropophagous. A shapeshifter who eats shapeshifters is perhaps a cannibal, but not anthropophagous, because shapeshifters are not human.
Shiloh
QUOTE (Malicant @ Jun 3 2008, 04:26 PM) *
Well, well, isn't that Captain Obvious speaking. Talking about Blood Magic in a Shadowrun forum should make it pretty clear that we are actually talking about Shadowrun, making it moot to mention In Canon. *grumble, grumble* It totally ticks me of when people pull the "Oh? We are talking about canon. Well, in my game everything is different." manuever.

Hey, don't swat at me when I'm agreeing with you and trying to stop people from pulling that very maneuver without saying so. What's the use?

QUOTE
Shapeshifter that eat humans are not cannibals. Shapeshifters that eat Shapeshifters (of their own kind) or the animals they are based on would be cannibals. Cannibalism is the act of eating your own species, not the act of eating something with the capacity to think.

[shrug] Is sapientovore a word? Would people understand what it means? Are there enough Shapeshifters to make the dictionary definition of cannibalism viable as a metamagic; thought they were preeeety rare? The thing that gives Cannibalism its power is the sapient life force, not the psychological hit of violating the "don't eat your own" taboo, as you've already pointed out. Sure the *dictionary* says cannibalism is eating your own species, so a rat (normal, RL rat) eating the corpse of another rat is a cannibal, but is that what is meant by the term cannibal as applied to metamagic? Did the designers even think that players would be allowed to play shapeshifting initiated blood magic adepts? Can't put my hands on the book, but does it define Cannibal as needing to eat the flesh of metahumans or the flesh of their own species?
ArkonC
QUOTE (Malicant @ Jun 3 2008, 05:26 PM) *
To say Blood Magic is Evil is not moral judgement. It is simply stating a fact. If a Priest sacrifices 1000 people to his gods, it is murder, moral judgement can be made, yadda, yadda. If he sacrifices those people and uses their life/death to empower a spell, it is Blood Magic, and that is Evil. It's neat, clean, simple. wink.gif

Saying something is good or evil is by definition a moral judgement...
Is capital punishment good or evil?
Are Insect Spirits good or evil?
What if a hero sacrifices himself to save a town/country/world, a la Diablo (Tal Rasha)?
Which reminds me, I didn't think the sacrifice (for the metamagic) has to die per se, so I get a coven; we cut up ourselves a bit to power our wheat growing spell, no one dies and in a few we can feed the whole village, evil or not?
My point is that murder is only evil because we say it is...
In SR it is up to the GM to decide if absolute evil exists and if blood magic subscribes to this...
QUOTE (Malicant @ Jun 3 2008, 05:26 PM) *
[edit]I should also mention, that "perception of evil" does not really apply. You do not turn twisted, because someone thinks your practices are evil and you don't switch from being twisted to not twisted when going from a place that thinks of you as evil to a place that actually like what you do. Also, a Blood Mage is always twisted, even if he is, say a vampire and no one would blame him for using blood in his magic, or maybe a Aztlani Priest, who sacrifice people for the good of the nation.

While as a person, I agree that human sacrifices are evil and have no place in modern society, I'm sure you can find people to argue the point...
I guess I just enjoy being the devil's advocate...
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Malicant @ Jun 3 2008, 10:26 AM) *
To say Blood Magic is Evil is not moral judgement. It is simply stating a fact. If a Priest sacrifices 1000 people to his gods, it is murder, moral judgement can be made, yadda, yadda. If he sacrifices those people and uses their life/death to empower a spell, it is Blood Magic, and that is Evil. It's neat, clean, simple. wink.gif

I would argue that putting their deaths to practical use would be less evil. Needless to say, you're confusing fact with opinion.

QUOTE
. Also, a Blood Mage is always twisted, even if he is, say a vampire and no one would blame him for using blood in his magic, or maybe a Aztlani Priest, who sacrifice people for the good of the nation.

It is not necessary for a practitioner of Blood Magic to be Twisted.

Malicant
QUOTE (ArkonC @ Jun 3 2008, 06:20 PM) *
Saying something is good or evil is by definition a moral judgement...
Unfortunatly I am not talking about morals, how many times do I have to repeat myself? It is not about good or evi, it is about Blood Magic being Evil. Metaphysicly, actually evil. It is not evil, because people percieve it so, it simply is. Christ, that's really not so difficult.

QUOTE
Is capital punishment good or evil?
Irrelevant in this discussion.

QUOTE
Are Insect Spirits good or evil?
Nope, they simply are invaders from another dimension.

QUOTE
What if a hero sacrifices himself to save a town/country/world, a la Diablo (Tal Rasha)?
Not good, or evil, plain stupid. The sacrifice did not accomplish anything in both cases.

QUOTE
Which reminds me, I didn't think the sacrifice (for the metamagic) has to die per se, so I get a coven; we cut up ourselves a bit to power our wheat growing spell, no one dies and in a few we can feed the whole village, evil or not?
You seem not to be reading what I wrote. I already stated that murder is not a nessecity of Blood Magic. Does not change that it is a twisted practice, i.e. Evil.

QUOTE
My point is that murder is only evil because we say it is...
I don't say so. Murder happens and is usually a waste of resources (human and otherwise), but evil? Nah. Also, I don't think anyone who wasn't demented ever said that murder is good. justified, maybe, but never good. wink.gif

QUOTE
In SR it is up to the GM to decide if absolute evil exists and if blood magic subscribes to this...
Yeah, and here we are right in the middle of the "In my game" manuever.

QUOTE
While as a person, I agree that human sacrifices are evil and have no place in modern society, I'm sure you can find people to argue the point...
Human sacrifices are not the point here. Sacrificing someone is not the same as using the Sacrifice Metamagic.

QUOTE
I guess I just enjoy being the devil's advocate...
Whishful thinking. wink.gif

QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jun 3 2008, 06:25 PM) *
It is not necessary for a practitioner of Blood Magic to be Twisted.

Okay, why is it in the twisted section? For giggles? If it was NSC only, they could have mentioned Blood Magic before the twisted section. Also, you might want to read page 139 in Street Magic again, the part about Blood Magic, where it pratically screams in the readers face that it is a twisted metamagic. Yeah, I think Blood Mages are twisted by default.
Ancient History
Okay, let's talk about Evil and evil for a moment.

Evil with a capital E doesn't exist in Shadowrun. There are no entities whose sole purpose and choice is to be Evil, even the Horrors were presented as more fleshed-out than that. No one and nothing is born or created Evil. This isn't a game that restricts characters to specific alignments, from a purely mechanistic viewpoint there is no Evil. Whether you, or your character, or the GM, or anyone else in the game believes that Evil exists is something else again. Evil is not an objective fact, at least not in Shadowrun. Players and characters are free to believe whatever they want, but when we're having an out-of-character discussion like this, it's important to know where the lines are drawn. Anybody who thinks differently should go read The Perception of Evil, p.136, Street Magic.

What you do have in SR is the evil that metahumans do, to themselves and others. A bit more mundane than the idea of absolute Evil, but a damn sight grittier and more realistic too. The Awakening might have exposed the Sixth World to a few new evils, but whether they're any worse than what metahumanity has managed to do to itself and others is largely a matter of opinion.

Magical threats and AIs are easy to misconstrue as Evil because they are alien to metahumanity-but just because their actions are seen as evil doesn't make them Evil, with all its connotations. Insect spirits are a popular subject, usually drawing parallels to the movie Alien. If you accept the invae as a natural (or supernatural) part of the Sixth World, then the way they pursue their life cycle is not in itself innately Evil - indeed, Target: Awakened Lands is at pains to present a different interpretation. That doesn't mean that the bugs or bug magicians aren't evil, or use evil ends to achieve their means.

Blood magic is almost entirely a metahuman practice, and an example of the evil done by Man. Whatever disparate hints there are of its origins, the fact is that no-one forces blood magic on anyone else; it has to be learned, and it has to be used. In theory, at least, it is just another tool in a magician's magical arsenal, neither good nor evil until applied in such a fashion.
Apathy
Doesn't Awakened Lands (SR2) make reference to the aboriginal shamans in Australia using a self-sacrificing version of blood magic to keep some 'threats' (like Spider) locked away? I never got any sense reading through the fluff of that book that they were evil.
Malicant
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jun 3 2008, 07:07 PM) *
Okay, let's talk about Evil and evil for a moment.

Evil with a capital E doesn't exist in Shadowrun. There are no entities whose sole purpose and choice is to be Evil, even the Horrors were presented as more fleshed-out than that.[...]

Well, actually not the Horrors I know, not by the definition of the word Evil I use, which definitly is very different from what everyone else here seems to use it for. And one single idea plus one generel modus operandi is not what I would call "more fleshed-out than that".
Sheesh, can't a guy say something is Evil, without being accused it is a moral judgement? I guess not. So the guy will further try to use terms like twisted or corrupted, which might help better to deliver his idea. sleepy.gif Or maybe not.

So, now that we have the consesus that Evil does not exist, we know for sure that corruption (formally known as Evil) does. And Blood Magic is just that.

What do you people actually understand as Evil, btw? I'd really like to know.
Sweaty Hippo
QUOTE (Screamin Demon @ Jun 3 2008, 03:22 AM) *
Its not okay to hit girls no matter how hard they hit you first.


Unless they hit you with a gun.

As for Blood Magic, it's got a nasty reputation. In the game world, the idea of human sacrifice is taboo among the non-Aztlan, while in the game rules of SR3 (or so I heard), your Blood Spirits can get an infinite Force boost as long as they kept killing. As for SR4, I heard that they have Blood Magic in Street Magic, but I don't really know.
Malicant
Blood Spirits had the infinite force boost in Street Magic, in SR3 they actually worked without some bogus loophole mechanics. The post-errata Street Magic version of Blood Spirits is even worse, though at least no longer can they increase their force ad infinitum.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Malicant @ Jun 3 2008, 02:58 PM) *
Sheesh, can't a guy say something is Evil, without being accused it is a moral judgement?

question.gif Is my sarcasm detector broken?
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Malicant @ Jun 3 2008, 12:58 PM) *
Sheesh, can't a guy say something is Evil, without being accused it is a moral judgement?


Evil is a moral term, if you use it you are in fact making a moral judgment. Which isn't always a bad thing. But before calling something evil, defining what evil is, often helps.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Malicant @ Jun 3 2008, 08:26 AM) *
To say Blood Magic is Evil is not moral judgement. It is simply stating a fact.

Wrong. Good, Evil, & Good vs. Evil are all subjects of morality, based on the ethics of a sentient society capable of making such intellectual judgment. The context does not matter. Inherit good or inherit evil does not exist - good & evil is, once again, a human concept, and so can not be automatic in any circumstance.

Many practices that are today considered evil have been considered acceptable, and even holy, in cultures past. Prime example being Aztec/Mayan/etc. sacrifices. They were trying to do exactly what the Shadowrun Blood Magic represents, and it was not evil - it was a holy act.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Malicant @ Jun 3 2008, 12:58 PM) *
So, now that we have the consesus that Evil does not exist, we know for sure that corruption (formally known as Evil) does. And Blood Magic is just that.


To corrupt something it must first be 'pure', so if you could describe 'pure' magic to me, and tell me how blood magic corrupts it? Maybe explain to me how blood willingly sacrificed could cause such corruption?
The blood being used need not be from a sentient being, so what happens if our blood mage works in a slaughter house, and simply makes use of all the cows being killed for food? Line up 10 cows in a row, slit all their throats at once, thats about 140 boxes of physical damage... or ~34 dice to soak with. Won't change the quality or quantity of the food, but the ability to use that magic to keep the animals healthy while they grow, or using it to grow the cows food... Not really seeing an issue here?
I can see PETA having a bird, but aside from that, no problem.
Ancient History
QUOTE (Malicant @ Jun 3 2008, 07:58 PM) *
Well, actually not the Horrors I know, not by the definition of the word Evil I use, which definitly is very different from what everyone else here seems to use it for.

Malicant, at this point I'm not entirely sure you know what the heck your definition of evil is. You certainly haven't given one, except to say you think evil is completely separate from moral judgment. Newsflash: A moral judgment is saying whether something is good or evil. Good and evil are moral terms. You can't use them objectively, especially in SR which doesn't have any convenient labels like "Lawful Evil" to hang on things.

As far as the Horrors go, I suggest you read up. They're a diverse lot, each with their own appetites and goals. Some are mindless critters, others are sophisticated intelligences. They are probably the closest thing to Evil in Shadowrun, if only because the entire spectrum possesses a degree of malevolence...but they are not wholly given over to it, as they can experience a range of emotions, and for the unintelligent ones at least their actions more closely resemble a hunger or instinct than a concerted will to be evil. Horrors are horrific, and some of them are certainly evil, but I wouldn't quite place them as Evil-though they come closest.

QUOTE
So the guy will further try to use terms like twisted or corrupted, which might help better to deliver his idea. sleepy.gif Or maybe not.

So, now that we have the consesus that Evil does not exist, we know for sure that corruption (formally known as Evil) does. And Blood Magic is just that.

Try to understand: Twisted and Corruption indicate bad but not necessarily evil, in the same way that you can claim an insane person is sick instead of evil. Because that's what most Twisted Adepts, Corrupt Mages, and Toxic Shamans are: sick in the head. Whether or not they are evil or just f*cked in the head is largely a matter of how they are presented and played. An adept could be relatively harmless and practice self mutilation and still be Twisted; that doesn't make them evil. A toxic shaman could capture and torture a logging crew in the Amazon for the greater good-and who is to say that their actions do not benefit the environment? An old shaman could sacrifice a willing victim to bind the spirit that would otherwise destroy his village for the same "greater good." No one says that these actions are right, and many would argue that the latter two at least are evil, but in game terms they are neither Evil nor corruption.

The Path of Blood magic is a twisted path. It has to be. Not everyone can take a knife to themselves, or others, or even a small animal easily; it takes a certain amount of discipline and willpower to do so, and repeated effort to be able to do so as needed in any circumstance. Do you think you could cut yourself on command? Gnaw at your wrist or tear at your flesh with a jagged thumbnail when there's no blade around? That doesn't take in the magical aspects of the act, of course, or the addictive rush of power, only the initial violence. The "Corruption" of blood magic is as much the different mental outlook of someone trained in blood magic as it is any extraplanar influence.

QUOTE
What do you people actually understand as Evil, btw? I'd really like to know.

Evil with a capital E generally refers to cosmic evil, entities or forces that are completely, unequivocally malevolent and willingly so. There's no evil quite like that which chooses to be evil, being evil by nature as a sort of default setting is mundane. Common examples include the Devil and Lovecraft's Cthulhu - although it should be pointed out that even in those cases, evil is largely a reflection of the moral framework that the entities in question are viewed in.
Zhan Shi
For what it's worth, in Earthdawn Blood Magic is divided in to two different forms. The first is called Life Magic, used for the sealing of oaths, empowering adept talents, and so forth; the energy is drawn from the caster himself. The second, the "evil" form, is called Death Magic; the energy is taken (willingly or not) from one or more donors. Among other things, it is used by the Therans to create Raw Magic Filters, and to power their floating mountain fortresses (Behemoths). Because it reminds people of the Horrors and the Scourge, not to mention the nasty example of Blood Wood, Blood Magic is regarded with great suspicion by the general populace. The Lightbearers have severe restrictions on its use; for example, they can't make use of Blood Charms. A much more in depth exploration on the subject of Blood Magic may be found in the Earthdawn supplement Magic: A Manual Of Mystic Secrets.
last_of_the_great_mikeys
Well, by the official rules, the true downside of blood magic for PC's is that you have to hand over your character sheet to the GM. Character gone. Boom! I'm sure there's a good reason for this in the developers' minds. Perhaps it's "Think of the bad PR if we "advocat" blood magic!"" Perhaps there's other reasons. The bottom line is that you can no longer play a character who gains any blood magic abilities.

Now, assuming you're gonna ignore this little rule, as is the right of the GM in his own game, then all bets are off. Whatever you allow is the rule.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (last_of_the_great_mikeys @ Jun 3 2008, 07:33 PM) *
Well, by the official rules, the true downside of blood magic for PC's is that you have to hand over your character sheet to the GM. Character gone. Boom! I'm sure there's a good reason for this in the developers' minds. Perhaps it's "Think of the bad PR if we "advocat" blood magic!"" Perhaps there's other reasons. The bottom line is that you can no longer play a character who gains any blood magic abilities.

Now, assuming you're gonna ignore this little rule, as is the right of the GM in his own game, then all bets are off. Whatever you allow is the rule.


I'm going to have to ask for a page number citing loss of P.C. when learning blood magic, as the book provides explicit instructions on how to learn it, and pg 137-138 say how a P.C. should go about playing one, and when it is appropriate.
So looks like the books permit it just fine.
Malicant
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jun 3 2008, 09:29 PM) *
Newsflash: A moral judgment is saying whether something is good or evil. Good and evil are moral terms.

As I said, that is the problem here. For me, those are just words. No matter, I will find better words to describe my intent next time.

QUOTE
As far as the Horrors go, I suggest you read up. They're a diverse lot, each with their own appetites and goals.[...]

If by diverse you mean all the same, just with slightly diffrent degrees of blood shed, then we agree.
I like Horrors, but really, diverse is something they are not. They want food, they all gather that food und than eat it. The only one that comes to mind as not food driven is Verjigorm, who instead hunts dragons. Woopdee.

QUOTE
Try to understand: Twisted and Corruption indicate bad but not necessarily evil[...]

Not to want to repeat myself, but I am fully aware of that. Seriously, I just used a word you understand diffrently then I do. A case of bad wording, I guess. I was using Evil not in a cosmic sense, but to diffrentiate from evil (the moral one). Whatever, I'm way to lazy to explain myself right know.

Bottom line:
Twisted and Corrupted mages are different from evil or bad mages. A mage that is twisted might be recognzied as a good guy by some, as a bad guy by others, but he is still twisted, no matter what. That's more or less what I got from all those nifty magicbooks that were published until know. I don't see much that contradicts that, especially not the Perception of evil sidebar.
Ancient History
QUOTE (Malicant @ Jun 4 2008, 11:15 AM) *
As I said, that is the problem here. For me, those are just words. No matter, I will find better words to describe my intent next time.

The wonderful thing about words is they have definitions. Learn them, use them correctly, and people will give you less of a hard time.

QUOTE
If by diverse you mean all the same, just with slightly diffrent degrees of blood shed, then we agree.
I like Horrors, but really, diverse is something they are not. They want food, they all gather that food und than eat it. The only one that comes to mind as not food driven is Verjigorm, who instead hunts dragons. Woopdee.

You're officially unqualified to continue with this line of conversation then, because it's obvious you know practically nothing about Horrors.
Fuchs
If Horrors are not evil by your definition, then devils and demons and such are not evil either. And I can't really imagine anything that would be evil then.
Malicant
Name one Horror, that does not fall into the line "it has one favorite food, it corrupts people to produce that food, it harvests". The only one that I can find in Horrors which I am reading right now, is Verjigorm. And his Dragon-corruption scheme could be also broken down to food.

No disrepect, but Horrors are really flat if you break them down.

I still like them, since they are not "Hulk, Smash!" all the time. Corruption is so much more fun than destruction.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Malicant @ Jun 4 2008, 07:46 AM) *
Name one Horror, that does not fall into the line "it has one favorite food, it corrupts people to produce that food, it harvests". The only one that I can find in Horrors which I am reading right now, is Verjigorm. And his Dragon-corruption scheme could be also broken down to food.

No disrepect, but Horrors are really flat if you break them down.

I still like them, since they are not "Hulk, Smash!" all the time. Corruption is so much more fun than destruction.


Slipshades. The dark warrior.
Malicant
Ah, Slipshades. Minor Horrors that exist for the sole purpose so it's description can have something like "they are mysterious, no one knows what they actually do" written into. Can't seem to find them in ED 2nd. Did they cut them out?

And who is this dark warrior figure you mentioned?

Also, when I asked about a Horror that deviated from my oversimplification, I should have mentioned I was asking for Horrors that matter, i.e. named ones. Slipshades are cool, though.
hyzmarca
The dark warrior is a character from Harlequin's Back. He attempted to attack a kingdom that was protected by Thayla, a woman whose voice was so beautiful that she could slay Horrors simply by singing. The dark warrior fell in love with her, however, and instead of killing her so that his breathern could invade as was the original plan, he simply stayed by her side day and night, enduring the excruciating torment of a voice that would have slain any lesser Horror, simply because he wanted to be near her.
Ryu
QUOTE (Malicant @ Jun 4 2008, 02:46 PM) *
Name one Horror, that does not fall into the line "it has one favorite food, it corrupts people to produce that food, it harvests".


Broad categories, not saying much.

I challenge "has one favourite food" for all horrors that target kaers. "Anyone found inside" does not qualify. Examples: Chantrells horror, Hater

Corruption is a standard, but not done by all horrors. Physical or mental pain are alternatives. Examples: Hirnwühler (Brain Worms?), Kreescra

Harvesting... I´m not sure what you are getting at, but some horrors certainly don´t waste time with "sowing".


All horrors have in common that they feed on negative emotion. Some cause it directly, some indirectly. Some corrupt, some kill, some make life miserable. They might pose a physical threat or hide behind the scenes. Some build constructs or even armies, some act alone. All are "The Enemy".
Ancient History
QUOTE (Malicant @ Jun 4 2008, 12:46 PM) *
Name one Horror, that does not fall into the line "it has one favorite food, it corrupts people to produce that food, it harvests". The only one that I can find in Horrors which I am reading right now, is Verjigorm. And his Dragon-corruption scheme could be also broken down to food.

The Horror Hunter. Dread Iota. Gnashers. Ristul. Looking at Horrors at critters out for food is just more evidence that you really have noc lue what you're talking about.
Fuchs
I still don't get what would be considered evil if not Horrors. Devils and Demons for sure look exactly like horrors.
Apathy
I think part of the point is that SR is all about moral relativism. There is no clear cut good-vs-evil struggle. No black and white, it's all shades of grey (and usually very dark grey at that).

I think it would be more helpful to discuss the impacts of things like blood magic in terms of the impacts on more measurable qualities. Like "the use of the sacrificing metamagic often results in a sense of detachment between the mage and the rest of humanity and increasingly sociopathic behaviors. Additionally, the energies released during these magical workings are known to attract shadow spirits, wraiths, and similar hostile creatures as well as the occasionally do-gooder who might attack the mage on principle. The GM should use their own discretion to decide if this becomes the hook for a whole new campaign, or if these influences drive the character insane and turn them into an NPC."
Shiloh
QUOTE (Apathy @ Jun 4 2008, 09:07 PM) *
I think part of the point is that SR is all about moral relativism. There is no clear cut good-vs-evil struggle. No black and white, it's all shades of grey (and usually very dark grey at that).


I think the whole Gaiasphere aspect of the cosmology, along with the unspeakable results of the Horrors getting out again make for quite a large splodge of retro 60's decor, even if most of the world is bathed in the greys of dusk, dawn, smog and ash.

QUOTE
I think it would be more helpful to discuss the impacts of things like blood magic in terms of the impacts on more measurable qualities. Like "the use of the sacrificing metamagic often results in a sense of detachment between the mage and the rest of humanity and increasingly sociopathic behaviors. Additionally, the energies released during these magical workings are known to attract shadow spirits, wraiths, and similar hostile creatures as well as the occasionally do-gooder who might attack the mage on principle. The GM should use their own discretion to decide if this becomes the hook for a whole new campaign, or if these influences drive the character insane and turn them into an NPC."


That's a good stab, but for it to be a balancer in a metagame sense, there have to be numbers on it, or players will take the mick.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Jun 4 2008, 05:45 AM) *
If Horrors are not evil by your definition, then devils and demons and such are not evil either. And I can't really imagine anything that would be evil then.

I cannot speak for anyone actually involved in the discussion, but what I would say is, they are not inherently evil. Any sentient being capable of understanding morality can be evil, just as it can be good. Any non-sentient being cannot be either, as it is unable to understand or follow such a code of morality.

The only thing that could be inherently evil would be a sentient being capable of understanding morality, but uncontrollably compelled to perform evil acts without outside influence. I cannot think of anything capable of evil that has "be evil" written into it's genetic structure, so...

On the nature of Blood Magic, it does not matter how many of it's practitioners are evil - the magic itself is not sentient, does not understand morality, cannot make it's own choices, and so cannot be evil, much the same way a standard wolf cannot be called evil.
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