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knasser
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jun 28 2008, 03:25 PM) *
Now in the specific case of what gender neutral pronouns should be used, the English speaking world has not reached consensus. In my personal Californian Dialect the answer is "they/their" for "him/his." But in other linguistic groups it is not. Personally I hope for the ascendancy of the They/Their position because it would be easier for me personally, but there are lots of other possibilities. Some traditionalists still stubbornly hold onto using him/his but honestly I can virtually guaranty you that in the future that is going to look even stranger than it already does.


Interesting. I spoke without realising I was biased. My English was learnt in the UK and I learnt their was correct as a singular gender neutral. At any rate, regional dialects are being supplanted by online dialects. There are even break downs by medium, as most of my friends use txt speak when txting me, but if u did it ona forum, it wld lk way 2 ugly. wink.gif

What's more interesting is how you do this in-game. There are creatures *cough*dragons*cough* that it is rather hard to tell the sex of. Does one simply use he or she or their until you've discretely found out? And if the dragon overhears you, are they sensitive on the subject? Come to think of it, how would you discretely find out?
hyzmarca
In the opening to TNG, the issue is more species inclusiveness than gender inclusiveness. Using the human specific term "man" just sounds speciest when the Federation consists of hundreds of worlds and dozens of species and a Klingon and an android are in your bridge crew.

hyzmarca
The booming voice reverberates in your brain as the great golden wyrm manipulates the mana permeating your synapses. The knowledge that this creature could probably give you a fatal aneurysm just by speaking to you this way is not lost on you as you try to hastily formulate an appropriate answer to Lofwyr's question, "Are you looking at my junk?"
Jackstand
QUOTE (knasser @ Jun 28 2008, 09:58 AM) *
Interesting. I spoke without realising I was biased. My English was learnt in the UK and I learnt their was correct as a singular gender neutral. At any rate, regional dialects are being supplanted by online dialects. There are even break downs by medium, as most of my friends use txt speak when txting me, but if u did it ona forum, it wld lk way 2 ugly. wink.gif

What's more interesting is how you do this in-game. There are creatures *cough*dragons*cough* that it is rather hard to tell the sex of. Does one simply use he or she or their until you've discretely found out? And if the dragon overhears you, are they sensitive on the subject? Come to think of it, how would you discretely find out?


I think that the personality of dragons tends to be in line with their gender, so you would likely be able to guess. I don't know whether or not I'd want to stake my life on it, though, by calling Lofwyr 'ma'am.'
Chrysalis
QUOTE (knasser @ Jun 28 2008, 05:58 PM) *
What's more interesting is how you do this in-game. There are creatures *cough*dragons*cough* that it is rather hard to tell the sex of. Does one simply use he or she or their until you've discretely found out? And if the dragon overhears you, are they sensitive on the subject? Come to think of it, how would you discretely find out?


Dragons like all non-human creatures use the pronoun "it". Only if they are pets for whom the owner has a strong emotional bond with does one use he or she with. The he or she refer to the relationship between owner and pet.

A dragon is an it unless you wish to invoke the special relationship between pet and owner.

I would wish to emphasize that language is governed by arbitrary, tacit understandings of substructure (also known as grammar) between interlocutors.
MaxHunter
being the pet who? smile.gif
MaxHunter
QUOTE (Chrysalis @ Jun 28 2008, 05:55 AM) *
I would wish to point out that the use of he or she is has gone beyond an issue of grammar and is now a question of stylistics.

I was looking through the Chicago manual of style and the MLA handbook with recomendations from the APA on use of gender. I even looked at a bit of history of gendered nouns in Old English. Unfortunately this is a matter which has no easy answer and is an oft common conversation topic over a coffee among my colleagues.


(boldface mine) Now I wonder what you do for living, my dear. I really have a hard time picturing my colleagues engaged in such conversation.

Cheers

Max
knasser

QUOTE (Jackstand)
I think that the personality of dragons tends to be in line with their gender, so you would likely be able to guess. I don't know whether or not I'd want to stake my life on it, though, by calling Lofwyr 'ma'am.'


Jackstand - I would absolutely love to know what personality traits you would use to gender-categorise a dragon. And what precisely about the megamanical Lofwyr puts him or her in the female camp? biggrin.gif; smile.gif

QUOTE (Chrysalis @ Jun 28 2008, 04:14 PM) *
Dragons like all non-human creatures use the pronoun "it". Only if they are pets for whom the owner has a strong emotional bond with does one use he or she with. The he or she refer to the relationship between owner and pet.

A dragon is an it unless you wish to invoke the special relationship between pet and owner.


Heh. That makes me think that the issue is more whether dragons bother to refer to metahumans as anything other than it. Overhearing a couple of dragons referring to you as "it" would be a nice in-character touch.

And as regards the special relationship between owner and pet, I guess that means it's a bad sign if a dragon does start using your appropriate gender pronoun.

@hyzmarca... I'm really not sure what answer would be least likely to get me killed. And as dragons are quadrupeds, fairly close to the ground, I'd really have had to go to some effort to get a look, I would think.
Jackstand
I meant that, to me, Lofwyr seems to be very much a more masculine personality. A character could get it wrong, though, and make what may likely be his final blunder.
knasser
QUOTE (Jackstand @ Jun 28 2008, 04:30 PM) *
I meant that, to me, Lofwyr seems to be very much a more masculine personality. A character could get it wrong, though, and make what may likely be his final blunder.


I don't know... now that you've said it, I kind of like the notion that Lofwyr is actually female. Though that would make her a blonde, wouldn't it?

*runs* wink.gif nyahnyah.gif
hermit
QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja @ Jun 27 2008, 10:31 PM) *
And just more interesting to help visualize it. the too pc 'him/her' 'she'/he' is just grating to look at. So what if half the pronouns are female? We make up half the population of the world and IF it causes some male to feel put on because his gender does not dominate the text, then you know how women have felt for centuries.

I usually do not mind this stuff but if someone is so bend to feel threatened by the number of pronouns because it 'feels' like it is leaning in a certain way, and he was not put out when it favored men, it is just wrong.

1) I was hoping for a run on a shoe store too, and disappointed by this thread.
2) I don't think it's a nescessity to sanitize language according to whatever doublethink is currently in fashion, but I am pretty conservative, especially in the langage I use. I don't mind that so much either, though.
3) Still, forming the language according to one's own political agenda does reek a lot like NewSpeak to me. It's just stupid to politicise society like that.

@Jack Sorry, deleted the quote. I had misread it. Yes, I do agree with you.
Jackstand
Spanish, Italian, French, Latin and Greek, off the top of my head.
hyzmarca
In my opinion, if you don't know how to address a dragon you should take refuge in audacity and hope that your apparant arrogance either amuses or impresses them.

Thus, instead of Herr or Frau, you just refer to the big gold guy as Loffie-poo.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Jackstand @ Jun 28 2008, 10:46 AM) *
Spanish, Italian, French, Latin and Greek, off the top of my head.


That's because those are all Romance languages. Deutsch, for example is a Germanic language and has a whole neuter category which takes over when you don't know or care.

English is composed of Saxon, which is a Germanic language; and Norman, which is a Romance language. And that's where the trouble comes in. Both methodologies are historically correct and dominant in different dialects.

-Frank
hermit
Use pluralis maiestatis.
Jackstand
Well, the first four are. Greek isn't a romance language, but that's beside the point. Also, I'll admit, I'm not familiar with how it's handled in modern Greek. I only know ancient Greek.
Chrysalis
QUOTE (MaxHunter @ Jun 28 2008, 06:24 PM) *
(boldface mine) Now I wonder what you do for living, my dear. I really have a hard time picturing my colleagues engaged in such conversation.

Cheers

Max


I teach English part-time as a second language at the University of Oulu, Finland. I also work as a proofreader of English (primarily Academic texts) and I also do translations from Finnish to English through their language services there.

My major is English with minors in literature and medieval studies (my speciality is Anglo-Saxon studies from the University of Glasgow).

I finished this spring my qualifications to teach K-12 in English and I am continuing with a university teaching degree next fall.

I can speak English, Finnish, Russian and I can read German, Latin, and ancient Greek.

My current project is working on a journal article on anglo-saxon metallurgy and sword construction with an emphasis on charting out the reason why they are considered special in anglo-saxon literature.

I am currently at the office looking through Quirk and Greenbaum's A Student's Grammar of the English Language and cursing that I had to return their more definitive A University Grammar of English.

I am not a great student of English, but I haeavily rely on authoratative sources.
WhiteWolf
QUOTE (Jackstand @ Jun 28 2008, 11:02 AM) *
Well, the first four are. Greek isn't a romance language, but that's beside the point. Also, I'll admit, I'm not familiar with how it's handled in modern Greek. I only know ancient Greek.


While Greek is not a Romance Lanaguage it does have a lot of influence in it. A lot of Latin derives from Greek or had a major influence in the structure of words. I have heard from those who speak both state it is best to learn Greek first and then Latin so you are able to understand where and how words in Latin came to be.
Jackstand
That they're close cousins with a common ancestor language is really more the case than that Latin developed from Greek. There are a lot of Greek loan words in Latin, but those aren't really the same thing, and come from the close association of the speakers of the two languages, and because many educated Romans were bilingual, than from a linguistic heredity.
MJBurrage
QUOTE (Chrysalis @ Jun 28 2008, 10:14 AM) *
Dragons like all non-human creatures use the pronoun "it". Only if they are pets for whom the owner has a strong emotional bond with does one use he or she with. The he or she refer to the relationship between owner and pet.

A dragon is an it unless you wish to invoke the special relationship between pet and owner.
As a an American with a British father (and annual trips across the pond for over twenty years), that is not my experience with English.

"It" is used for animals when the animals gender is unknown or inconsequential. Most people I know would refer to a bull (cow, moose, etc.) as he, or an animal mother as she. Furthermore in Shadowrun I am pretty sure that any sentient is considered a person (at least legally) and the specific pronoun he or she would be used when known.

My savvy runners would never refer to a dragon, sasquatch, etc. as "it" since that would regulate the subject to the level of object rather than person. For the same reasons, I do like the idea of a dragon using "it" for a human, putting them in the role of object rather than person.
WhiteWolf
QUOTE (Jackstand @ Jun 28 2008, 11:34 AM) *
That they're close cousins with a common ancestor language is really more the case than that Latin developed from Greek. There are a lot of Greek loan words in Latin, but those aren't really the same thing, and come from the close association of the speakers of the two languages, and because many educated Romans were bilingual, than from a linguistic heredity.


Well if they are on loan then I would hate to see how much is owed in interest! smile.gif

Would the word "loan" not indicate the intention to return? (asking for clarification here; nothing more. smile.gif )

See I would still argue this because, regarless of who associated with who, my understanding is you don't find very many latin words, if any, in the Greek language; but you do find a lot of Greek words in the Latin language, and many of those were changed to appear Latin.

What is the common ancestor language?
WhiteWolf
You know, I wonder just how big this thread is going to get. I have seen many points to argue so I can see the potential of the thread becoming huge, and some of the arguments I would LOVE to discuss with a few of you in person; because I think the conversation would not only be interesting but enlightening, for one or both of us, as well. biggrin.gif

proof.gif
kanislatrans
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jun 28 2008, 10:49 AM) *
In my opinion, if you don't know how to address a dragon you should take refuge in audacity and hope that your apparant arrogance either amuses or impresses them.

Thus, instead of Herr or Frau, you just refer to the big gold guy as Loffie-poo.


and Loffie-poo is what you would probably become. grinbig.gif
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
Would the word "loan" not indicate the intention to return?


Loan words go just one way. They are called loan words I think because the original language does not lose them in the transaction.

So in English our Saxon peasant ancestors raised cows and our Norman overlords ate beef. Loan words from the Germanic and the French respectively.

-Frank
Chrysalis
QUOTE (MJBurrage @ Jun 28 2008, 07:43 PM) *
As a an American with a British father (and annual trips across the pond for over twenty years), that is not my experience with English.

"It" is used for animals when the animals gender is unknown or inconsequential. Most people I know would refer to a bull (cow, moose, etc.) as he, or an animal mother as she. Furthermore in Shadowrun I am pretty sure that any sentient is considered a person (at least legally) and the specific pronoun he or she would be used when known.

My savvy runners would never refer to a dragon, sasquatch, etc. as "it" since that would regulate the subject to the level of object rather than person. For the same reasons, I do like the idea of a dragon using "it" for a human, putting them in the role of object rather than person.



You do have a point. English according to Quirk and Greenbaum's A Student's Grammar of the English Language distinguishes animals into two groups: familiar animals and less familiar animals. The former embrace the range of animals, birds, etc. in which human society takes a special interest, and which specifically impinge on familiar experience (for example, in farming or as domestic pets). Many of the nouns for these occur in male and female pairs as with personal nouns, often with he she as the reference pronoun though usually that which as the relative:

The is the bull which has a brand on his/ (its) back.
This is the cow which had her/ (its) first calf when she/ (it) was already seven years old.

Other such pairs include ram - ewe, stallion - mare, hen - cock (erel), and there are some with morphological marking, as in lion - lioness, tiger - tigress. But frequently, despite such pairs as dog - bitch, one of the two is used with dual gender, or an item outside of the pairing (such as sheep beside ram - ewe) so operates:

This horse is two years old; isn't she beautiful?
This horse has sired his first foal.

But less familiar animals constitute by far the majority of creatures in the animate world. Squirrels, ants, starlings, and moths may be fancifully referred to as he or she, but for the most part are treated grammatically as though they were inanimate:

Did you see the spider? It's hanging from the beam.
Did you see that balloon? It's hanging from the beam.


For further reading I can recommend Susannge Wagner's Inaugural Doctoral disseration, Gender in English pronouns Myth and reality.

shuya
prescribed linguistic rules fail to take into account the arbitrary nature of language and the tenuous relationship between words and the things they are used to name. language is not a sacred cow, it is not an ineffable design of some creator deity, and to treat it this way ignores the immense social power that words can have.

trying to force everybody to speak the same way is an imposition on the expressivity of man, and i find strict adherence to other people's linguistic rules to be a sign of one's lack of capacity for creativity.

as for me, i use "he" when i am not thinking much about what i am saying, "she" when i am trying to intentionally mark my language as not bound by the artificial limitations imposed by others, and "co" whenever i am trying to mark myself as part of the intentional communities subculture.

i am glad that SR gives "he" and "she" equal time, but not because of any political views on my part (as a staunch supporter of LGBT rights, i could make the argument that using ONLY he and she is a sign of bigotry, but i won't). it's a stylistic choice, and one that shows a regard for the breaking of conventions, something i feel is appropriate for a cyberpunk RPG.
WhiteWolf
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jun 28 2008, 12:12 PM) *
Loan words go just one way. They are called loan words I think because the original language does not lose them in the transaction.

So in English our Saxon peasant ancestors raised cows and our Norman overlords ate beef. Loan words from the Germanic and the French respectively.

-Frank


I believe you are correct for I vaguely remember someone telling me this at one time. Thanks. spin.gif
Stahlseele
QUOTE (MJBurrage @ Jun 28 2008, 06:43 PM) *
As a an American with a British father (and annual trips across the pond for over twenty years), that is not my experience with English.

"It" is used for animals when the animals gender is unknown or inconsequential. Most people I know would refer to a bull (cow, moose, etc.) as he, or an animal mother as she. Furthermore in Shadowrun I am pretty sure that any sentient is considered a person (at least legally) and the specific pronoun he or she would be used when known.

My savvy runners would never refer to a dragon, sasquatch, etc. as "it" since that would regulate the subject to the level of object rather than person. For the same reasons, I do like the idea of a dragon using "it" for a human, putting them in the role of object rather than person.

now i as a german wonder why the ost people would go:"IT'S A DRAGON! RUN!" instead of:"HE/SHE IS A DRAGON! RUN!" O.o
and over here, we use es(german for it) even for humans if we don't know what gender the person is . . for example babies:"give it to me" is word for word translated pretty much correct, untill we find out the gender or get a name that we associate a gender to o.O
Mäx
QUOTE (shuya @ Jun 28 2008, 08:30 PM) *
as for me, i use "he" when i am not thinking much about what i am saying, "she" when i am trying to intentionally mark my language as not bound by the artificial limitations imposed by others


I do that also,i mostly started using she(when i happen to think what i'm writing)after reading few nWOD sourcebooks. embarrassed.gif
MJBurrage
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jun 28 2008, 02:02 PM) *
now i as a german wonder why the ost people would go:"IT'S A DRAGON! RUN!" instead of:"HE/SHE IS A DRAGON! RUN!"
So would any English speaker, since the point in this case is to note a threat, not to describe the dragon in detail. In your example the phrase "It's a dragon, run!" is the same as "There's a dragon, run!". The gender of the threat is inconsequential and taking the time to discern the dragon's gender would delay the fleeing. smile.gif

However in a different context; "Who is Lofwyr?"
"He's a dragon." would be correct, "It's a dragon" would be odd, and possibly insulting.
Stahlseele
yet, that's the exact way we over here in germany would answer that question in most cases . . if we did not simply say "a dragon" and be done with it *g*
Memeurgy
As a professional technical writer, my team at work took a look into the whole he/she issue and determined that the emerging industry standard is to alternate pronouns in examples. So, if you read newer manuals, you should start seeing more of this.

However, unless you're giving a fairly detailed example, the pronoun isn't going to match the reader's expectations about half the time. If I'm thinking about my male character, then every "her" is going to look wrong. We decided to simply avoid singular pronouns whenever possible, so we either phrase things in the plural "Shadowrunners should mind their ammo," or in second person, particularly imperatives "Conserve your ammo, chummer."

As for dragons, having the legwork for a run include discreetly inquiring into the sex of a dragon would be hilarious.

In the specialized field of gaming rulebooks, I assume that the obstentation use of feminine pronouns serves primarily to create the illusion that there are more female players.
shuya
QUOTE (Memeurgy @ Jun 28 2008, 04:50 PM) *
In the specialized field of gaming rulebooks, I assume that the obstentation use of feminine pronouns serves primarily to create the illusion that there are more female players.

i've never seen the overall demographics, but i've actually been in gaming groups with more female players than male more than a couple times, and i doubt that this kind of "gender equality fantasy" would really enter into the choice of pronouns used in the books. furthermore, the gender of gamers shouldn't have anything to do with the pronouns used to describe characters (which it seems like most of the SR rulebooks do, which actually prompts further psychological questioning about who is really making all these tests, but i digress), as there is nothing (except uncomfortable gamers) stopping a person from playing a character of a different gender then their own.
Hocus Pocus
well it seems to me they are trying to get women, yes i mean actual females!, to be more comfortable with the idea of playing this type of game. An excercise in futility it is, like trying to keep ice cool on the sun, it is just fundamentally not in the equation of women playing thses kinds of games. Picture it, they walk in semi interested because more babes are included in the instructions and they can relate better, but then they see the types of guys who play this and are like "like omg! these guys are like totally losers! *making the letter with their index finger and thumb against their forhead* they don't bathe, they are virgins, and like totally soooo perverted and disgusting! like gag me with a spoon ewwwwwwwwwww!!!!" then they run out the door.


so while it is a spot on good try to get women interested in gaming, by converting all the hims to hers and such i think it only servers to make us geeks even more uncomfortable, so the fact we can't get women IRL and now they are spilling into our games, taunting us with their bodacious bodies and now our last bastion of refuge is being infringed upond.
knasser
QUOTE (Hocus Pocus @ Jun 29 2008, 05:31 PM) *
but then they see the types of guys who play this and are like "like omg! these guys are like totally losers! *making the letter with their index finger and thumb against their forhead* they don't bathe, they are virgins, and like totally soooo perverted and disgusting! like gag me with a spoon ewwwwwwwwwww!!!!" then they run out the door.


Um, hate to tell you this mate, but I think that's just you. I know that many of the male posters here are happily married. And modesty aside, I seem to have more than my fair share of attractive girls flirting with me (I've yet to work out why, but when I do, I'll let people in on it). And there were two girls in my last group both of which were perfectly presentable and only moderately crazy.

Of course you might just be joking, but if not...

EDIT: I also doubt the gender-balanced pronouns would actually make a difference to any girl about whether or not to play (one of the female DS'ers can correct me if I'm wrong). It's just about courtesy, at the end of the day.
Memeurgy
I know there are competent, smart, sane female gamers; several of them are in my group. There is a perception held by many that gamers are great, unwashed males, and that can keep some women away, which is unfortunate. If messing with pronouns signifies an attempt to make gaming more accessible to women, then that's probably a good thing.
Tiger Eyes
As the percentage of male pronouns used are aprox. 55% and the female pronouns used are 45% of the text, the male pronoun is still dominant. However, in the case of using the in-fiction examples (ie, Pistons is a hacker, she's coding some malware), I can say as a freelancer, I have been encouraged to use the established Shadowtalkers for examples. They are a mix of genders, metatypes, and archtypes. There is a list here.

As for the use of out-of-game pronoun references (ie, Mark is creating a character. He decides to make a mage.)... anyone here with lots of time on their hands want to go through Unwired's 997 different uses of he/she/his/her and tell us exactly how many are in-fiction references to characters, and how many are references to roleplayers? And of those, what percent is male and what percent is female? And when you're done, go back through the last several sourcebooks and do the same? We could see if there was a trend, from, say SR3 to SR4 moving towards more equal usage of the female pronoun. And then, if you still have time, I have some laundry that could use folding, if you don't mind. wink.gif
hyzmarca
Beho wants some sexy underwear but is low on nuyen so she takes her katana and uses it to rob an Irish lingerie shop. Her player is arrested for her crime and he is sentenced to two years in prison.

You see, it isn't too difficult to avoid using generic pronouns in examples by simply using specific characters.
Lofwyr's masseuse
QUOTE
In the specialized field of gaming rulebooks, I assume that the obstentation use of feminine pronouns serves primarily to create the illusion that there are more female players.


No; it serves, in part, to create more female players. I'm not saying that girls go, "Oh, it says she! Now I can play, whereas before I couldn't! Tee-hee!" or anything so simple as that. People want to play in an atmosphere that welcomes them, and acknowledging their existence is part and parcel. White Wolf, for example, brought loads more woman into gaming, and consequently, into the gaming market, simply by acting like they might be players. Expanding one's market is generally considered a good thing, especially when the changes it makes are so minimal.

@hermit: It occurs to me that using exclusively "he" while objecting to alternating between "he" and "she" is also politicizing language. Language, in fact, is a political tool, and is extremely difficult to use apolitically - the best attempts are what is known as "political correctness" although as the term points out, the attempt to be apolitical is, in itself, political.

As for the less stressful and more exciting path this discussion has taken:

QUOTE
I think that the personality of dragons tends to be in line with their gender, so you would likely be able to guess. I don't know whether or not I'd want to stake my life on it, though, by calling Lofwyr 'ma'am.'


Does Hestaby act feminine? What about Arleesh on her mission? I guess I'm just asking, what's "feminine" for a dragon? Should she be helpful (lol)? Vain? Shy and retiring? I'm serious. They all seem more or less masculine to me, the "less" ones don't feel like much of any gender. And then there's good old Aden, whose gender is unknown.

QUOTE
The booming voice reverberates in your brain as the great golden wyrm manipulates the mana permeating your synapses. The knowledge that this creature could probably give you a fatal aneurysm just by speaking to you this way is not lost on you as you try to hastily formulate an appropriate answer to Lofwyr's question, "Are you looking at my junk?"


Yes.
Ryu
I say a book thats 50-50 is very fair for my household. My lady was not amused to hear of the Hocus-Stereotype. Now if you know real woman, they´ll be able to handle a roleplaying session, don´t be afraid wink.gif
knasser
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jun 29 2008, 07:37 PM) *
Beho wants some sexy underwear but is low on nuyen so she takes her katana and uses it to rob an Irish lingerie shop. Her player is arrested for her crime and he is sentenced to two years in prison.

You see, it isn't too difficult to avoid using generic pronouns in examples by simply using specific characters.


You picked such an example at random, I suppose? rotfl.gif

QUOTE (Lofwyr's masseuse)
@hermit: It occurs to me that using exclusively "he" while objecting to alternating between "he" and "she" is also politicizing language. Language, in fact, is a political tool, and is extremely difficult to use apolitically - the best attempts are what is known as "political correctness" although as the term points out, the attempt to be apolitical is, in itself, political.


In other words, once the possibility of using mixed gender pronouns has been made clear to a person, given the minimal effort required to use them, the decision not to use them is as much an active choice as it would be to do so.

It seems only reasonable to mix things up a bit, to me.
shuya
QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Jun 29 2008, 01:17 PM) *
As for the use of out-of-game pronoun references (ie, Mark is creating a character. He decides to make a mage.)... anyone here with lots of time on their hands want to go through Unwired's 997 different uses of he/she/his/her and tell us exactly how many are in-fiction references to characters, and how many are references to roleplayers? And of those, what percent is male and what percent is female? And when you're done, go back through the last several sourcebooks and do the same? We could see if there was a trend, from, say SR3 to SR4 moving towards more equal usage of the female pronoun. And then, if you still have time, I have some laundry that could use folding, if you don't mind. wink.gif

you laugh, but if i were still in college i would probably do this, and then write a paper about it. oh god what has academia done to me *sobs* (the pronouns, not your laundry. not that your laundry is uninteresting, but, well... you know)
Chrysalis
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jun 29 2008, 09:37 PM) *
Beho wants some sexy underwear but is low on nuyen so she takes her katana and uses it to rob an Irish lingerie shop. Her player is arrested for her crime and he is sentenced to two years in prison.

You see, it isn't too difficult to avoid using generic pronouns in examples by simply using specific characters.



I had to read this a few times.

One interpretation is Beho want some sexy underwear for his character, who is a woman; he takes his katana to rob an Irish lingerie shop, he is arrested and is revealed to be a man and is sentenced to two years in prison.

Teal Deer
QUOTE (Lofwyr's masseuse @ Jun 29 2008, 11:06 AM) *
Does Hestaby act feminine? What about Arleesh on her mission? I guess I'm just asking, what's "feminine" for a dragon? Should she be helpful (lol)? Vain? Shy and retiring? I'm serious. They all seem more or less masculine to me, the "less" ones don't feel like much of any gender. And then there's good old Aden, whose gender is unknown.


Actually, I think the most 'feminine' of the known Great dragons would pretty much be Masaru, for all he's the sponsor of a revolutionary movement. He just comes across in the books as cheerful, friendly, gregarious, good-natured, and really, pretty genki. And also a big dork, but hey. Lung as described doesn't seem all that 'manly', either, which makes sense given that he identifies as Yin, I suppose, but the whole 'learned, reserved, inscrutable scholar-type' thing isn't really gendered either way. Celedyr's the same way, although more 'nerd' than 'inscrutable paragon of enigmatic wisdom'.

Really, I'd agree - most of them seem at best neutral in terms of how their personality matches up with the stereotype of their 'actual' gender, except for Sirrush/Vast Green, who's depicted 'rar survival of the fittest jungle warrior' super-butchishly masculine that it's almost comical. I don't think even Lofwyr is so much 'masculine' as he is just very ruthless and so intelligent he's kind of abstracted away that whole 'relating to other sentients as anything other than chess-pieces' stuff. Kind of Asperger's-y, really (cf. the last scene in Survival of the Fittest, heh.)

Anyway, it sort of makes sense that dragon gender wouldn't map to what metahumans think of as 'masculine' or 'feminine', given that we're talking about a species that generally lives solitarily and with almost no gender-based division of labor, doesn't pair bond, and where primary caregivers for young can be either male or female.

QUOTE
Yes.


One man's junk, another man's hemi-pene?
Stahlseele
the only dragon that actually acts according to the gender associated to her is the she-dragon, the leviathan with the singing voice that got tricked into making eggs by one of the english land-dragons who loves music *g*
Teal Deer
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jun 30 2008, 02:11 AM) *
the only dragon that actually acts according to the gender associated to her is the she-dragon, the leviathan with the singing voice that got tricked into making eggs by one of the english land-dragons who loves music *g*


I don't think that's acting according to her gender, I think any parent would act like that if their offspring were kidnapped.
Stahlseele
as far as i understand dragonoid society? no.
eggs don't hatch into whatever species mama and papa were but into the species of dragon that actually cares for them before hatching . . and it's not seldom that another dragon takes care of the eggs a dragon has laid . . she's just bitchy because she was tricked due to him impersonating another leviathan and she wants to have the eggs be her species by taking care of them so there will be more leviathans later on that will take her revenge on daddy dearest . . granted, i understand dragons about as far as i can throw them so meh *g*
Teal Deer
It is unusual for biological dragon parents to raise their own offspring, but it's hinted pretty strongly in Dragons of the Sixth World that she's pretty much the last Leviathan - so if she doesn't raise them and imprint them with her DNA, there goes her entire species. That transcends male or female, I'd say. Plus, given the rather hilarious conversation Lofwyr and Hestaby have in the back of Survival of the Fittest, I don't think Greats are usuaully much with the making of the babies hatchlings anyway; just the raising, so it might not be all that weird to have a Great who does wind up spawning raise his or her own kids.

'Bitchy' is also a pretty dumb way of categorizing her reaction. Say some freaky alien being disguised itself as a hot model and seduced you, but wound up anal-probing you and impregnating you with eggs. You'd be fucking pissed, too. And probably not that inclined to share custody.
Stahlseele
if i got impregnated with eggs i'd want an abortion or have her carry them to term an let her have custody completely . .
knasser
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jun 30 2008, 11:11 AM) *
the only dragon that actually acts according to the gender associated to her is the she-dragon, the leviathan with the singing voice that got tricked into making eggs by one of the english land-dragons who loves music *g*


Rhonabwy is actually Welsh not English. Rhonabwy is red and this is significant to Welsh people, as well, I think.
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