Greets,

I was wondering if there have been any bicycles statted for SR4e or could such be made with the quirky rules from Arsenal in making a vehicle.

Would there be a way to take pedal power into speed as well?

So any way to make mountain, trekker, hybrid, or racer bikes?

-Chrysalis

You mean, other than suicidal tendencies?

I resemble that comment!

I was just out for a nice 20 mile bicycle trip, so besides it raining bullets what about bicycle messengers that are in as ubiquotus in the current Seattle landscape as Starbucks.

-Chrysalis

They probably switched to Dodge Scoots.

Which probably attract as many bullets.

Bicycles are better at playing dodge the traffic with. Hard to run a scooter down steps as well. Well... you could, but it would be dead at the bottom.

So could a bike, but that's why steel carbon steel rims were invented for and of course you can also have a shock absorbing front fork.



-Chrysalis

This very topic was hashed out a couple of months ago. Here's the link if you want to take a look.

I've always thought of the messenger bike runner - used by an assassin, thief or really whoever - was a fantastic idea.

You could get through crawling traffic in daring daylight hits dodging between cars, ducking into tight alleys to lose aerial surveillance or various other fantastic high-adrenalin action.

Just remember, helmets, brakes, and shocks are for noobs, and you - messenger bike riding shadowrunner - are no noob.

Plus bicycles are extremely light weight and can be broken down into their component parts for quick stowage with practice. Brian Wood explored the action-packed life of gun-toting NYC bike couriers Hong Kong-action style in his graphic novel series The Couriers. Good reading for Shadowrun fans.

bah, get yourself some cyber-feet with built in rollerblades

Is it possible to pedal on a bicycle while at the same time operating a SMG in full auto mode without falling over due to recoil?

Mount two SMGs coaxially on the handle bars so that you always shoot in the direction that you're peddling and you never have to let go of the bike.

Ouch. *holds head* You could have warned us (the general public) that the first 3 or so pages were good, and after that it would give you a migraine trying to figure out if people had gotten back on subject yet.

(In high school I drove a 78 Buick Electra, a friend drove a 68 Lincoln, and another friend drove a 70's... big yellow tank thing. All would have good "armor" values, particuarly compared to modern cars, but if all three of us had climbed up on one of their roofs, the cars would have still had a bad day. After reading that bicycle thread I needed to say my 2c, but I don't want to bring it back to life.)

I would like to see stats for bicycles. If for no other reason than completeness, but I also think some cool runner ideas could come out of it.

Heh. Welcome to Dumpshock, dude. 10% wheat, 90% chaff.

You could keep it simple and force a reaction roll if the recoil exceeds the shooters riding skill pool.

Recoil compensators. Lots of recoil compensators!

Electric firing, heavy barrel, gas-vents...

For sure, but try to avoid the gyro! Maybe you could have a bike with gyro stabilization or something so you can go hands-free firing bursts from two machine pistols splattering people and fruit stands while you zoom through a farmer's market crowd after your mark.

There are very easy answers to this. Rickshaws, tandems, and unicycles.

Remember to honk first.

It would be pretty sweet to have a motorcycle and sidecar but the sidecar is actually set up with a .30 cal machine gun that pivots on a 180 degree arc opposite the driver side.

fully possible using arsenal iirc...

Very possible! And highly suggestable for Bike Gangs on raids!

Remember to wear the German Coal Scuttle Helmets with the Spike on top! You'll look like a dork otherwise.

especially if your a ork or troll

Trolls don't need the spike, they got Horns!

heh, true...

btw, orcs on motorbikes and trolls on trikes. anyone else get a wh40k vibe?

and yes, if a group of those showed up on the rear view, i would be flooring it...

Da Red onez go fasta.

Bicycles have a fairly significant amount of resistance to falling over while in motion. You see, those two wheels act as gyroscopes. That's why you can see a bicycle or motorcycle careening down a hill upright even though the rider is missing. You'll note that when a BMX trick rider kicks his bike away for a fancy landing, it will often land upright (although usually rotated around its wheels due to resistance to the wheels' rotation)

I can't say your accuracy would be that great but odds are the recoil is less a factor to crashing than the distraction of trying to shoot.

External Weapon Mount Implant (p.43, Augmentation). The built-in Smart Firing Platform dronebrain can even handle the targeting for you, leaving you free to concentrate on pedaling and steering. Doesn't add any recoil mods, so you'll probably want to put some of those in first, but if you keep your bursts short and controlled, it's unlikely you'll end up gone with the schwinn.

Actually, the Dodge Scoot is no better than walking. Worse, really. A human is, in vehicle stats, 10/25. This totally trumps the Scoot's 10/15. Sure, you could get the Scoot to 60 but it takes 9 successes on a vehicle test. Your first 2 successes just go towards getting to the 25 of a person running. Heck, if the person is *trying* to run they'll probably be at 27 (1 success on a running test) so even if you get 3 successes (9-12 dice on the vehicle test) you're gaining a whopping 3 meters each combat turn. God help you if you race a Troll with athletics.

We've noticed that the vehicle speeds are utterly pathetic.

A casual bicyclist can do 50 miles in about 4 hours. That means the casual cyclist has a "walk" speed of 17m/turn. For simplicity's sake, we'll assume the casual cycler makes no tests to boost speed.

A non-pro cyclist will do 50 miles in 2 hours, giving a sustained speed of 33m/turn. That's better than the default "run" speed of a Harley. Against a "typical" go ganger (stat:3, skill 3) the harley's only going to be running at 40m/turn. Assuming the sustained speed is an average, it's not unreasonable to expect a shadow-cyclist could go much faster in a sprint, keeping up with or outrunning the motorcycle.

And that's why bicycles won't be in SR4.

Edit: Fyi, my data came from this fun ride.

I can so see a team hiring "Chan The Chinese Troll", Rickshaw Masta!

having been in Seattle 2 months ago, I'd say screw bikes. We saw some along alska way near the coast but the freaking hills in down town will break any rider and a 'quick' get away will have to be a hsort burst to reach a car

Given that there are multiple 1-hour bike messenger services in Seattle, I doubt the hills are that imposing to a practiced cyclist. Here is a price list for bike messenger services in the greater Seattle area. Or this one. Looks like they can do 30 mile deliveries (Lynnwood to Renton) in an hour. That's a sustained 30mph, which in SR4 vehicle terms is a speed of 40. That's about what an average go-ganger can get out of a Harley (speed 30 + 2 successes on the Vehicle test using 6 dice).

And since the 20 mile range was just Google Maps spitting out Lynnwood to Renton, the actual distances can probably be up to 35 miles (north Lynnwood to south Renton) which would be up to a speed of 45.

That is the top end of their price ranges, meaning they've only got a couple cyclists who can do it but I've seen many sammies with high athletics skills (and synthecardium) that should be equal or better than all but the best bike messengers.

the outer areas maybe, but trust me-downtown is a mess. massive freaking hills that walking was a strain. and IF you're being chased by someone, their have a motor and you don't, you're going to be putting all you attnetion into peddling.

...rockets.

My daily commute takes me down a street that is notorious for drivers blowing stop signs on the cross streets in spite of the fact I have the legal right of way. I've nearly T-boned these imbeciles, on many an occasions coming within mere inches of them (real fun when it's raining and your brakes are worth crap which is fairly common in Portland). I refer to this stretch as the "shooting gallery" and often imagine myself launching rockets or HE grenades at the brain dead mouth breathers and even came up with a scoring system.

...maybe I should get into video game design...

Bikes are (Meta-)human powered, so shouldn't it give an enhancement to the peddler's normal movement rates, instead of having a separate rate for the vehicle?

Essentially, that's what bikes are: Tech that enhances the user's muscle-powered movement speed. Makes sense that Speedy the PhysAd would pedal a bike faster than Bob the Overweight Rigger.

If you look at the price list, they operate out of downtown and it's fairly inexpensive. Could be their cyclists have mapped the flattest routes or that with proper mechanical advantage, the hills aren't that bad. Hell, San Francisco has bike messengers and that's a hilly nightmare too.

hmm, i wonder if some of them "poon" trams and busses or something

Acceleration is maneuverability, not top speed. That's the Speed value, and the Scoot runs up to 60 meters per combat turn, or 72 km/hr, while maintaining full control. I'd say that's a good bit faster than walking.

...some hills in SF are so steep, the walkways actually have stairs.

Obviously not Wheelchair accessable.

"Now you see why I have 'FRAG BIPEDS' on my ride!"

http://www.ibotnow.com/

SWEET! A Low-Rider Wheelchair!!!

btw, i got reminded of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5ntCYYc7lw

...OK so you can do a perpetual wheelie with it. I thought they were going to show it climbing stairs like the ibot wheelchair.

See, there you go using logic. That won't get you anywhere in Shadowrun.

Go read page 159 of the BBB, particularly the "Acceleration" entry. The "Speed" entry is just there so the GM can throw whatever penalty he wants at the driver. Although it takes "Rigger Jesus" to actually get enough successes to push a vehicle up to its speed rating.

And I just went and checked the latest FAQ and errata and don't see anything changing these rules. I've got Arsenal and it is equally silent.

Don't feel bad. When I first read the SR4 book at Gencon, I expected the "acceleration" values to be multiplied by the successes to get your speed. It took building a rigger to knock that out of my head.

Easy, there. We're playing a game, not designing a physics simulator.


So, you think because a motor scooter is less maneuverable in a gunfight than a person, that it's actually slower for overland travel? I guess trains are the worst kind of transit, because their rails don't give them any maneuverability at all.


Here you are, going on about sustained speeds while using the numbers for tactical combat despite the fact that the rules tell you not to do exactly that. Scenes like this one are what the acceleration value is for (dirt bike @ 4:45, ATV @ 6:30).

Did you honestly believe that a "sports car" (which costs more than feeding and clothing a middle class family of four for a year) had a MAXIMUM SPEED of 60 km/hr (that's THIRTY SEVEN mph, if you need the reference)? That didn't set off any warning bells in your head that maybe, just maybe, you had misinterpreted something?

Actually, if you're refering to the Westwind, which has a "running" acceleration stat of 60, that number represents Meters per Combat Turn. To get miles km/hr out of either the Acceleration or the Speed stats on an SR4 vehicle's statline, you have to multipy by 1.2 -- 72km/hr or 44.7 mi/hr.

Not that the lack of conversion factor invalidates your other points.

True enough. But I try to base my games on physics. I dumb the physics down to the game's level but I still like to start with physics.



Where did "maneuverability" appear in my post? Not at all. Maneuverability is only applicable for overland travel because it modifies the Vehicle Test.




Really? I've desperately looked for that passage, read the book repeatedly trying to find it, and I can't. Please give me the page number that says "these are tactical combat speeds only." The closest I've done is infer that since it's in the combat section, it's combat rules. But since there are no "pilot" rules in the skills section, you're left with handwaving or making a guess about what the devs might have been thinking.

And "sustained" speeds are actually being conservative. If a cyclist can maintain a speed of 20mph for a hour, how fast do you think he'd pedal for 30 seconds while someone's shooting at him? Sprint speeds are much faster in real life. The sustained speeds are more than fast enough to demonstrate that why you won't see a bicycle in the game. A bicycle will either be horribly slow or make the cars look asinine.




Yeah, I know about acceleration. I've done a wee bit of highway design a couple of years ago so I understand vehicle acceleration ,braking, and maneuvering. At least according to AASHTO minimum standards. I am a civil engineer, not an automotive engineer, so I can't speak to the absolute cutting edge of vehicle capabilities. I grok the median and minimums pretty well.



I believe the SR developers are the ones who believe that a sports car would only do 44mph. Well, that's not true. Pilot( 3) + Maneuver(3) means the car's autopilot would get 2 successes for 70m/turn=84km/hr=52mph on its own. Whoops, forgot the "-1 threshold" pilots get for being "in VR" so that would be 75m/turn=90kph=60mph.

A driver physad with reaction( 8 ), pilot(6)specialized westwind(2) boosted skill (4)+handling(3) would typically get 7 successes for 95m/turn=114km/hr=71mph.

By RAW, it would take 240(max speed)-60(run speed)=180/5 speed increase per success=36 successes for a driver to get a Westwind up to top speed (288kph, 180mph). The driver physad would need to roll edge and get a spectacular number of re-rolls to hit that threshold. That also assumes that the road is in good shape and they aren't doing any other particularly challenging driving. Although I confess, doing 180mph should be plenty challenging all on its own.


Now there is a possible out where this may, repeat, may make sense: if you treat these as super-high efficiency electric vehicles that get a 6-hour runtime from the nano-solar cells embedded in the vehicle's skin (see "Arsenal"). A 6hr run time would be 264mi, which is actually awe inspiring from a solar vehicle doing 44mph.

Average sunlight reaching the planet is ~1kw = 1.3hp. So if you had 100% efficiency and 12 hours of sunlight, for a 6hour run time you'd get 2.6hp/sq meter. Using a Lamborghini Countach as Westwind-equivalent you've got 8sq meters or 20.8hp. Okay, 44mph is pretty impressive on ~21hp. Go Team "Ignore 2nd Law of Thermodynamics"! Put a rational 50% total absorption/drivetrain efficiency and it's 44mph on 10.4hp. That's pretty darned fantabulous. Pull that off in winter with 9 hours of sunlight and you've only got 7.8hp. Freakishly efficient.



My actual point is that the game mechanics are *not* based in reality. You can't assume that since you know how cars work "in the real world" that you know how they actually work in the game. To discuss Shadowrun 4th Ed you have to work within the framework of Shadowrun 4th ed.

Edit:modified a number to stop a smiley.

The important point is that is a number for use in a tactical combat stituation where said sports car and it's passengers may be attacking or being attacked by stationary characters on foot. Vehicle to vehicle chase combat doesn't care about speed or acceleration numbers, and in normal everyday driving conditions, any speed up to the vehicle max is achievable without calling for a driving test.

I was going to point out that I must be a truly magnificent driver to get a 1982 family sedan up to 110 mph (30 accel, no handling bonus, 16 successes), but I suppose the whole "ridiculously efficient electric motor" idea kinda trumps that out. In that context, vehicles moving relatively slowly makes sense.

On the other hand, the vehicle test as described gets the car moving that fast from a dead stop in three seconds. I would think that leisurely acceleration (like most overland travel includes) would be considerably easier, perhaps treating the acceleration test as an extended test.

How fast do you have to get a twin-prop Cessna taxiing to get it off the ground? 114 km/hr (what the Pilot could push it to on average with an Autosoft) seems a bit slow to me, but as we've already proved, I'm not an engineer.

or just buying successes over time?

Just point me at the page number that says those rules are only for combat driving. Or that a driver can get up to max speed in every day driving without making a test. It would be nice to see the rules for anything else (e.g. drag racing) but that's probably asking too much.