Okay, all ranting aside, here's something from a game developer's perspective: making player options mechanically balanced in the game is a primary concern for the writers. However, shadowrun authors also have to be aware of how a character option and its stats works within the fictional context of the game. In Shadowrun, dhampirs are, like half-metahumans, impossible. The genetics don't work out; you get the full expression or none at all.

The fact that this means I can write a section on the Infected without talking about half-vampires or a section on sapient critters without talking about the half-breed wendigo-sasquatch lovechild is a minor bonus.

thing that keeps me from playing those character types is the simple fact that most of them have some traits that i will have little to no control about . . i pride myself on controlling myself pretty well in about 90% of the time and i hate the 10% of time in which i lose control about myself . . even if it feels good to sometimes simply cut lose and destroy things and hurt people . . why the hell should i want something like that in my characters? might be one way of power-gaming, to not give the GM any little opening to do something with that i don't want happening to my character, but damn it, it is my character after all . .
vampire: ooh, fangirls and hunters! maybe even from your own team!
drakes: oooh, great dragons want you(dead)!
ghoul: oooh, headhunters maybe even from your own team!
shapeshifter: oooh, headhunters maybe even from your own team!
and so on and so on . .
and of course, me being the Cyber/Bio-Tech fan i have Problems with character designs that stop me from using my favoured doodads . .

This may be an appropriate concern for sarariman civilian wussies, whose only experience with violence is in action-adventure sims (which is not trivial, by the way. Stuff for another thread). Typical shadowrunners include combat adepts, combay mages, uber-augmented street sams, etc. Most of the guys that show up in a typical runner team are than capable to turn on someone and inflict massive bodily damage, if it ever strikes their fancy. A typical runner team is nowhere like a sheep hred, and rather more like a wolf pack or lion pride, everyone (or nearly so) can attack and defend effectively, so a "balance of force" does exist. Besides, if you have an Infected on your tem or as regular contact, you are bound to know that vampires or wendigoes only need to feed once a month to keep themselves completely Essence-filled and they need many months (6-12) to become so starved as to become dangerous for those nearby. As it concerns the need for blood or flesh, there is no reason why such needs are going to be any stringent than normal need for food, so it's going to be many days before they may become seriously starved. How do you assume you're going to end up holed with Paleface or Whitefur in a cramped location, for weeks, with no on else around to provide feeding ???



Yes they are. War is one of the typical socially-acceptable outlets of the sociopathic traits that almost all humans posess, to some degree. Actually, war it is one of the main reasons why those traits evolved in the first place.



Neither cats are. Yet they can befriend and appreciate companionship quite well. Any friendly act that would look appropriate for a sentient cat, would be basically appropriate for a tiger shapeshifter.



They don't need to out for a beer together. What matters is that they can act as functional team together.



If the shifter has had some substantial experience with human society, and is already assumed to be part of the runner team at character creation, it must be also assumed that such acclimation has already happened. Unless the shifter's player and rest fo the group want to RP the establishement of their relationship.



Dragons may come to think of their preferred metahumans the way a metahuman would think of a pet, but that kind of thinking may include much of what humans would recognize as loyalty. Even if they only think of them as minions, that does not means they must deem them as disposable, worthless ones.



As much as I suspect that I'm going to stir up a hornet's nest, seeing how much you seem to dislike the very notion of vampires having sex, the mention of furry fantasies makes me remark that the concept of sexual mating, and the fondness that may eventually develop in a successful long-term mating, may just be one of the types of human relationships that shapeshifters may understand best.



Then, as much as I may share your annoyance at the angsrty emo crap that WoD writers seem to assume as the default way of playing their games, I'm likely going to disappoint you in this, since the above attitude would be my most likely way of RP that kind of character. And that's not about wanting my character to be any more poweerful than other characters (since as I said, in a well-made point-buy system everything balances out; the points I invest to buy the wendigo or drake template another player will use to buy better attributes, skills, adept powers, spells, or augmentations), but simply because putting myself in the shoes of a character like that, "curse ? what curse ?" would be my most likely reaction, and so that would be the way of RP such a character that would come most natural to me. So it's not about wanting to be muchkins or attention-whores, but yes that kind of enthusiasm is definitely something you may expect from a character of mine. And no, I've read relatively little about Ann Rice. So it would be a case of parallel development.



As it concerns tigers, again, I'd use the cat rule of thumb. Cats are solitary felines. Anything I would regard as appropriate behavior for a sapient cat, would be OK for me.

Y'know who else was a "Daywalker?" Freakin' Dracula.

Actually, the eggs with hammers nature of SR and real life combat makes shooting your enemy in the back long before he knows that he's your enemy is the best method of dealing with things. Any face-to-face fight has extreme risks, especially when the other guy gets to make the first move (possibly surprising you) and has the Regeneration power.
There is, however, a much better reason why shadowrunners shouldn't worry about their vampire friends turning on them any more than they would worry about their other allies turning on them. It is a very simply principal, really, the basis of a professional and recreational crime. You don't shit where you eat.
This one statement succinctly describes the most important principal of crime. You do it to people who don't know who live very far away from you. If you're too stupid to know that you deserve to get caught. You don't betray your teammates for a snack because its stupid. Not only will it be very obvious to your toehr teammates (if any) it burns your bridges and leaves you with that many fewer contacts. In the long-term it is a certain suicide tactic, particularly when you get a reputation for murdering your teammates and no one will work with you. .

Yes, this is also a big part of what I wanted to remark to rebut his point. I thank you for having been able to say it far better than I could.

But the question remains, are those issues based on actual gameplay experiences? I have yet to see one poster that actually had a vamp or Mary Sue in his group which ruined his gameplay esperience totally. I'm sure there are some, must be.
I only know one, a guy from my group, and he had a problem with vampires, because they are in theory more awesome then his character ever could be, or something. And at that time his character was quite the Mary Sue munchkin and he still is to some extent today. Which is kind of funny, in retrospect.

As per Archbishop of Canonista/RAWinsta Tortori, RAW does not define a Munchkin Build ergo such does not exist.

WMS

@ AH: Given what other stuff the SR writers do, having some "half-expressed" HMVV is not too much of a stretch - there are people who carry diseases but don't suffer from them, for example. Not to mention that the whole "virus turns you into another being that can turn to gas" explanation for SR vampires is, by itself, a pure stretch of the imagination already. I'll call it personal bias.

And for attention hogging, drakes seem much better for that than anything else, short of a technomaner drake.

Re: "revealing in "Ann Rice "I am powerful, immortal and stuff" style" - that describes the attitude of a number of elf players, and looks rather ironic in a game that features immortals (fortunately faded to the background in the 4th edition).

Yes it is. There is for example no such thing as a half ghoul... wait, yes there is. Or at least there was.
No matter, SR is not in dire need of mongrel folk, so dhampirs are out. I don't have a problem with them, as presented in folklore, I just don't like them the way most fiction depicts them. I don't care why the devs left them out, they are simply not necesery to SR in any way.

Dracula might have been a "daywalker" if you want as he could walk in the light of the day...but by no means a dhampir... Vampires bursting in flames through Sunlight is more or less a media development and not so much part of the legend.

As for the tragic vampire, emo or not... Vampires are perfekt for anti-heros and tragic/moral conflicts. They have been human once and they retain some psychological human needs as it mostly is their "flesh" that is transformed. That doesn't mean that one has focus on the inner conflicts of the vampiric existance but sticking to "crap, being a vampire is cool and I don't regret a thing" sounds superficial. You could as well play a normal charakter and do away with all the depth and weaknesses..."yeah being a shadowrunner is cool, I get to kill people all the time and i get payed for it...nothing is ever bad about it." Shadowrunning is a dirty business that eats you over time and being a leech is worse.

Either way, as a gamemaster I would have the player of a Vampire enjoy all the power it grants him until hes served the bill. I would at least once make him wish to be human again, should I fail at this, I have granted the Vampire to the wrong player. Although that might depend on the setting, it should have its place and time in most of them.

Shifters... well some may be better suited than others, when it comes to teamplay, but it all has important variables. Solitary hunters develope a way of life through a mix of instinct and circumstances - the latter can lead to situations that are not matching the instinct. Animal can adapt and learn, they do so in varying degree but they all do. Now take a so called sentient animal, that has been given the means to (at least partly) adapt to human society, a human Body, and the self reflection to actually think about doing it. It is possible for any shifter to adapt if the need arises. The need yes, so there needs to be some sort of a concept to it... but that need arises with every character, who or what ever it is.

Drakes...yeah well... I don't like them ( I think of them as a bad joke) but again, in the right campain, they can make a perfect fit.

With the right storyteller and the right players everything can turn out as one of the best stories ever played, even a night at the smurf village.

1) Wendigos are (until RC at least) by default toxic shamans and act like those do. Also, Wendigos prefer to feed off the flesh of close associates whom they have corrupted into cannibals, using every way to influence them there is, including magic. Yeah, sounds very much like someone you can easily work with. Vampires in SR follow more the pop cultural variant (the vampire of legend is based on people with rabies, presumably, and acts it), and propably would make a workable team member, if you could gain the trust of the team.


Shitting where you eat is the wendigo's common modus operandi. Maybe that's why they smell so horribly.


The world isn't as simple as you seem to believe. For one, how do you think evolutionary traits express themselves around a concept that makes them nescessary? And please, if the answer is in any way related to intelligent design, just don't answer at all.


1) Humans are one of the very few species that doesn't have mating seasons or otherwise strongly limited time windows for impregnation. This in effect means wolf shifters, for instance, have a very unconstant sex drive, and thus, won't really work well with human mates, whose sex drive is much more regular and who will be deeply frustrated by not having sex for months on end at all, and then basically doing nothing but constant humping.
2) I don't really think many (meta)humans would be thrilled to screw animal shifters.


Still, that's an SR dragon's standard modus operandi, for the most part (excluding Cathy Hart and her fluffy pet dragon).


Use a wild cat. Tigers aren't domesticated.


It does? Like how?

Oh, and I do have the same problem. So it's not that exotic a problem.

We had a shifter character in SR3, wasn't a problem - and it was a "full" shifter, not the companion version. Next to the sniper/infiltrator, and the ex-seal team leader, and the tricked out mage, the shifter was not standing out much.

Well the SR3 Companions Version wasn't that bad... and could be seen as the SR3 full shifter version. However it doesn't surprise me, as shapeshifters rarely surpass the combatcapabillities of a fullfledged troll. Also the mage is since SR1 a regular player option and has allways been the potentially most powerfull thing you can regulary play (even with advanced character options such as shifters). Balance Issues are the least I worry about when it comes to shifters.

We used the SR3 critter version, including full regen.

Not so. SR4 makes no such note. Older RAWs told "All known wendigo have been active shamanic magicians. Though most carried fetishes of predatory totems such as the wolf, some had items of unidentified affiliations."

Thus, while some may be toxic, most follow "natural" vanilla predatory tomes. Since you know, predation is a big part of the natural cycle, too.




First, it's a dietary preference, nothing more. They are preferclty free to feed on flesh and essence that has not gone through the "secret soceity of cannibals" stuff. A sapient is perfectly free to ignore dietary preferences if there's a serious need (such as the necessity to find oneself completely lacking trusted companions, associates, and contacts). Moreover, there's a sharp difference between the fools the wendigo may recruit for the cannibal stuff, which are no true associates at all, only dupes and future meals he's seasoning to be more tasty snacks, and true long-term companions, associates, conpanions, and team-mates. If they are valuable long-term associates, the wendigo has no interest on intention to make them future meals, and if they don't, they are not associates at all. So the "don't shit where you eat" maximum stands true even if those wendigo who go along with that "corruption" thing. Even if, since it's described to be a dietary preference and nothing more (a wenfigo doesn't need anything of the sort to use Essence Drain), wendigo PC will be left perfectly free to ingore that background bit.

If you wish a useful comparison, it's like the difference professional drug-dealers keep between customers and businessmates. As a rule, they stay professional with other dealers and don't purposefully try to get them into addiction, too.



No chance of that intelligent design £$%& as far as I'm concerned. I'm a deeply secular and apatheist (trans)humanist. But I fail to realize what you did mean with the "for one..." comment.



Yep, this is going to be a issue with most shifters. OTOH, it is possible that when assuming a human shape, the pure estrus wave-like sex drive of the animal form, may somewhat adapt to the more regular form of the human form.



Not most, probably. But there's definitely going to be some who are thrilled by the exotic experience. Not to mention those who have a furry fetish.



That's because a typical dragon has many agents and minions, most of them are not going to be long-term valuable associates. Yet, some dragons at least were consistently shown as being capable of friendly affection toward some "pet" metahumans (Dunklezahn, Hestaby, and IIRC Scharzkopf come to mind).



If the shapeshifter has got some significant long-term acclimation to human society (and shifter PC will most likely assumed to as default, unless the player purposefully revises the background to the contrary b/c he wants to RP the experience), they will be like those big cats who have been raised by, or in the regular presence of, humans. Which may be regarded as fairly semi-domesticated, not terribly different, considered the difference in size, from regular cats, which aren't fully domesticated to the level of dogs, either. You ought ot think of the typical shifter runner PC or NPC as the equivalent of those cubs who were raised by humans.

Sure. And most contacts of a changed orc will wait and see how they turn out before deciding whether or not to put the Wendigo onto their shit list. Right.


Sure, you can decide to ignore all bad psychological traits and physical inhibitions innate to a monster and pretend it's fluffy and cool. Of course, that reeks a lot like powergaming, spotlight whoring, and/or making your infected a Mary Sue character, but hey, in your group, it might be perfectly fine. Since that's all those character types would be good for, though, I don't see them as the best possible options and will very likely totally object to such bullshit PCs, but hey, maybe Ancient knows magic and can turn them into something less idiotic, who knows. It's a bit of sysiphos, though.


Right. They prefer to shoot their business mates, since their customers usually die off by themselves.


Exceptions, not the rule (and no, not Schwartzkopf, but Kaltenstein, who is crrently in hiding because Lofwyr has had enough of other Greats in his back yard).


You stated that the invention of war triggered the development of latent sociopathy in humans, which frankly, is nonsense.


Yeah, the Ignorance is Bliss attitude towards nonhuman PCs. Just pretend they're humans with cool features. I do hope the RC has something to say about that, too.


Uh ... yeah ... which is why they're handled with extreme care and kept in cages, just like house cats. Riiiiiight.

Well I know one or the other house cat that would need that cage if they where any larger... I have a nice scar from one of our little fighting games, its a nice cat, though. I dare to say, it's mostly the sizes that makes tigers held in captivity more dangerous than housecats. However, we have enough humans that need to be kept in cages - Shadowrunners would most likely fall in that category. Maybe we should start to talk about if humans are the reasonable way to go for a team, as they kill, rape, and eat each other, yes they comitt even cruler crimes than just killing and throwing nukes on each other...such an untamed monster couldn't possibly work that well with a team, could it?

Ruling character options like shifters or leeches out is ok, if it just doesn't fit the campaign, but in general...I don't think so. Also I read out somithing there that has more to do with the "Idiots" that like to play those critters, than with the thing it self. In that case I would think about, if I am willing to play with the guy "that is such an idiot" at all... but then again...I always had a better way with animals than I had with people.

Let's face it, there are many options and we do not each have to like all of them, so just let them live. There will be bad concepts for shifters, crappy played vampires,Wendigo Sex beyond good taste, munchkin drakes and some people slinging 4 guns at once. There always have been min/maxed streetsams whos solution to a lack of ice-cream would be shooting someone, allmighty mages that knew more about dice than the occult, AI hugging De- Ha- ckers, Immortal Elves risking there lives in shootouts. In every game, every role/species/class whatsoever there will be the goo the bad and the ugly concepts.

Immortal Elves are playable? Since when? oô

Wendigos do not prefer to eat close assossiates, or contacts, that is bull and you are twisting facts. Wendigos prefer flesh of people they turned to cannibalism is all.

Well, you do not need a rulebook for it you know... the sky isn't even a limit

And what would be the big deal about playing an Immortal Elf? They don't shoot lasers from their butt, or anything useful like that.

it's still not explained if those elves are really immortal in all aspects or just don't age . . if they just don't age, immortality is nothing a bullet won't fix O.o
by the way, why don't get shifters immunity to age with regeneration? @.@

sooner or later, they are all the goo concept ^^

They have an uninitiated magic rating of 8, a similar essence rating, and immunity against age, poisons and disease; if you take some canon examples, they're also immune to normal weapons. Also, they seem to have two powerful metamagics available otherwise restricted to dragons: the fate manipulation, and netherwalking (though that may just be arcane ED knowledge), which esssentially is teleporting.

Yeah, not game breaking at all.


No, it's in the BBB (they eat people who take part in cannibalistic feasts for a prolonged time and aid the wendigo find new people to corrupt as well as people to corrupt them *with*; go look it up). Unless the wendigo can manage his secret cabal of foodstock/cannibals (who need to eat other people, of course, so it's not quite a "1 essence point a month" feature), and a circle of close associates who don't take offense in the wendigo, the cabal IS it's inner circle.


Please kindly look up the topics of discussions you take part in, thanks.

Yeah, that is totally what I said, not what you said, but it sure makes your point clear.

Huh? What?



The above is a young IE go-ganger's SR1 stats.
Slightly above average quickness and charisma, pitiful strength, high intelligence, racemod willpower, and no magic at all.

I can totally see how he netherwalks through fate to magically break the game. Yeah. Awesome. I want that.

Yeah sure vampires and wendigo will prefer to pick up valuable contacts and close associates for feeding instead of disposable unknown dupes on the other side of the sprawl. Suruure.



This might be justified if one tried to ignore any need to feed for months on end, or allergies by strolling in full sunlight with no significant disconfort. This is wholly different from expecting infected or shifter or other "exotic" characters to act as willful idiots or mindless rabid beasts. One is perfectly free to dislike any such characters radically. Labeling them as munchkins or attention whores because they are played as possessing intelligence, common sense, and ability to learn and adapt is intellectually dishonest, since you are asking to make such characters utterly unplayable.



The fact you apparently choose to be willfuly oblivious to conceive the exotic RC character types as anything else than mindless, rabid beasts and clueless idiots totally in the grip of their urges to be acted on every whim, and therefore unfit to be anything else than cannon fodder NPC only good for a shoot them up, is your own business. But it's not a good reason to shower down derogatory labels on the heads of thsoe who think can do otherwise. can hope




I notice how this comment seems to completely miss the difference between businessmate-associate and enemy-competition. And I wonder how can ever hope to portray the life of a professional operative AKA runner, if this is not understood. Do your runners shoot down their contacts ?



Three Greats seems rather sizable a minority, to be a meaningless exception.



I stated that war is one of the main human activities (others are leadership and exploration) that caused sociopathic traits in humans to be selected favourably, and hence to evolve. Being able to kill another human being without hesitation or long-term psychological scars is something that greately helps the survival during and after a war situation. So people who were predisposed to do such things (because they had less empathy on the average, or were able to turn it off) were predisposed to be more successful in any human community that went to war regularly.



And here we go again. Despite the fact that shifters are sapient animals that can take the forms of humans, and in many cases had extensive exposure to human society, enough to be plausible as runners, they are to be portrayed as mindless beasts that rigidly replicate the behavioral patterns of their dumb wild cousins, erring on the rabid side if possible. I did not said that shifters necessarily adopt the sexual behavioral patterns of humans in full. I said that it is conceivable, since they are able to take human forms as an inborn ability, that they might have made an evolutionary adaptation in some of their behavioral patterns to something between their wild cousins and human. Conceivable, not certain.

First, it's told to be a preference, not a need. Nothing is said in the text of Essence Drain, Essence Loss, or Dietary Requirement that wendigo need to feast on the Essence of flesh of cannibals to be nourished. It's a flavor dietary preference, just like I can prefer fish rather than chicken. Nonetheless, I perfectly able to go on fish-less diet on months or years or end if need be. Second, we are reasoning from the PoV and lifestyle of wendigo PC or recurring NPC who want or need to be a runner (or to have any meaningful place in society, really) and to have a circle of reliable, trustworthy and useful long-term close associates, and not to be totally alone in the world, and therefore yes they need to keep their circle of "true" close associates and the cabal of pathetic dupes he seasons up for eventual feeding, utterly separate. Just like a smart vampire with the same needs and preferences will have to keep utterly separate the circle of close associates, and the people he picks as Essence or blood donors. Again, the analogy is useful with a professional drug dealer that is most likely going to keep utterly separate the circle of his criminal associates, contacts, and companions, from the network of his addict custromers, who he ruthlessly exploits. Any playable wendigo or vampire PC, unless it's a solo game, will have to either give up the "feasting on cannibals" bit, and feed from stranger random victims, or keep the person he feeds upon, and the persons he gets reliable long-term help and companionship from, utterly separate. And that's not munchkinism. it's applying enough common sense to make a PC or a recurring NPC playable.

why?
if you grow up in a society where that is frowned upon, why would you do that? aside from being all teenage rebellious and stuff of course . .
and in the world of shadowrun, you either adapt or find yourself a new society that fits your behaviour . . can't or won't adhere to any rules of the society you grew up in?
go find yourself a gang, proclaim yourself leader and do what your animal-side tells you: defend your territorry against everything else . . if your animal-side tells you to hunt: get a job as a head-hunter, you will probably be able to get the most freaking dangerous things back in pieces of differing size . . if your animal-side tells you to act cunningly and charm people like foxes are supposed to to looking at the SR3 companion rules for foxes you get a job as a lawyer . . why the hell would even a dumb animal try to live a life in which it can not function propperly?
only animal to do that is the metahuman race . . everything else adapts or vanishes from the region through either migrating somewhere else or being eradicated by the change . . if you don't play a shifter that from backstory just crawled out of the woods into the city for the first time, you play a shifter that chose to live that life because that life in his eyes allows him to live his life as his animal-part compells him to do . .

Since all Wendigos seem to prefer such meat (vastly, judging by the one Wendigo who made a significant appearance in a novel), it's at least a serious drawback to eat just about anyone's flesh.

Also, I don't see a wendigo easily building either a web of trust or gaining access to decent connections. For one, associating with wendigos make you look like an idiot who's likely to be eaten fairly soon. Then there's a purely reputation-related issue, and aside from reputable organisations like Tamanous, even in the shadows, the support infrastructure for Infected is rather weak.


Who exactly confirms to a contact which side of the sprawl they're on? A wendigop's word? Do they TELL the dupes they're gonna eat they're gonna eat them, too, in your fluffy little world?


Not usually, but drug dealers usually don't associate with colleagues, do they? Anyway, yeah, sure, runners do maintan their contacts, in some cases even with other, non-team runners (though there is competition among them, and yes, it might be that you will face your runner contacts on a mission - as enemies. That's the nature of the business they're in; most GMs shy away from that, of course, and understandably, as to not purposely fuck up someone's contacts, but it SHOULD happen). Also, betrayal is a constant in the criminal subculture, much more than most SR games give it credit for

So yes. In a consequently played out world, shooting your contacts occasionally will happen.


If I remember correctly, Kaltenstein ceased to be a Great with the second Germany book (or, in the international books, DotSW). It's two Greats, one being the intellectual heir of the other, who's worse-than-dead.


That's the point; most are not. Of course, runner shifters can happen - they run their own country, if controlled by a mad passion or some other big nasty, so some of them would propably be used to human society enough to blend in to casual observers, but that doesn't mean they act human in all important aspects of life, does it?

And as for the infected, yes, including them as playables is a decision that apparently has been made so that CGL can hope to collect those among the WoD players who sorely miss v:tM. Though arguably not a bad marketing decision, I really dislike the changes it brings to the game world.


Exactly. And wars haven't been around for long enough to cause evolutionary change in the creatures that have the longest maturing and reproduction cycle of all land animals (hence evolving rather slowly).


Evolution doesn't happen in a few years.


Where from?

Says who?

Harlequin; they're Jane Foster's stats original.

What changes... I mean it isn't exactly as if you coudn't have played "the Infected" from day one of Shadowrun. While it is always nice to have some "balanced" rules for the more exotic options, but it also works perfectly without those. I have seen one or the other campaign focussing around HMHVV from different points of view. When you play a System long enough to see numerous troups, stories and campaigns you start to try out a few things.

About evolution...well it sometimes happens "over night" and sticking to SR, I dare to call the awakening an evolution, that happend more or less "over night".

...and to jump a bit again... Not that it really does matter how the individual shifter type likes to time his sexual desire but, I'm not so sure about what being neither man nor beast and yet both, does to your desires of any dircetion. I like to see this as matter of interpretation...

However...one way or the other, the RC will be full of options. Hell, even the core-rules are just options. If I want to run a game base more on tech, I'll just disallow mages, if I want to portrait the adventures of a coven, I might restrict character choices to awakened and if I want to do a cop-campaign I might even rule out shadowrunners completely. One may like or dislike the options...but in most cases you do not really have to deal with them, if you do not want to.

That was a 1st edition adventure? And ... wasn't she an ubermage in H2? Weird. I don't mean to say you're posting crap quotes, I just feel that' kind of doesn't make much sense in the game world.


Yeah, if you play the game for a longer time you're bound to run into crap players. Just before RC, there was always the "not by the rules" slap around, without having to resort to GM fiat, which is just bad style in my eyes.


Nah, that's a phenotypially expressed (extremly drastic) alteration in a drastically changing environment, making genes express that had been dormant before. The magi-gene was there before SR-world's current magic cycle began.


No. Simply put, most animals have only a few times a year where they have comparable interest in sex to apes' constant desires. Most of the time, sex isn't something animals actively pursure, giving good clues they're just not very interested in it.


All it takes is one moron who insists, and you have to deal with them, even if the rest of the groupt doesn't.

Yes. No. In Harlequin's Back she wasn't anywhere near being an ubbermage. Her Sorcery skill was 4 and her Conjuring skill was 3. Her most powerful spells were at Force 4 and she only had two grades of initiation. Her SR2 stats aren't much different from her SR1 stats. Her Charisma is higher by one point as is her Strength is higher by one point (Which can be attributed to training) and her Quickness is a point two points lower for some reason. Harlequin is the ubbermage, but that's because he's over seven thousand years old. Thayla is also an ubbermage, but she's also many millennia old and she might not even be an IE.

Immortal Elves don't have any innate powers other than their immunities to age, pathogens, diseases, and toxins. The IEs who were around during Earthdawn are so powerful because they were around during Earthdawn; they have more than five thousand of years worth of magical experience and have mastered paradigms that no living mortal is aware ever existed. Playing such a statless character with undefined abilities is just insane. But playing a 20-year-old IE with twenty years of experience is perfectly reasonable. They're only slightly better than any other elf due to the immunity to pathogens and toxins.



Most female animals have estrus cycles. Most males are ready to go any time all the time. It is only the receptivity of the female that limits them. Gay lions, tigers, and elephants engage in sodomy year round, for example. Most gay male animals are receptive year round. Male shapeshifters will be very happy with the year-round receptivity of human females, assuming that they aren't turned off by the fact that they're committing bestiality.

Save from the fact she somewhere gained a magic attribute, yes. I had her memorized as a grade 4 initiate, though.


She used to be one, now she's ... well, that's her elf spirit sitting therwe and doing good deeds instead of waiting to be reborn, I guess.


Apparently, a latent awakening of sorts is among these powers, too.


That's a rather big assumption ... but es, you're right there. However, that's also assuming a shifter can grasp the rather complicated human wooing rituals.

I'm fairly sure a shifter won't have too much trouble finding a locale where 'human wooing rituals' consist of grasping the female firmly by the neck in your jaws, using other restraints as necessary.

humans basically use the same wooing rituals as cats do . . gifts and singing have allways and will allways be seen as acceptable wooing-behaviour . .
the only thing the were would have to learn is what kind of gift to give and what kind of song to sing . .

Ultimately, issues like muchkinism and mary-sue's an d attention whoring are problems with players, not characters. Players who want to act like this will do so regardless of whether they're allowed to play a magical drake/vampire hybrids or if they're restricted to making 250BP humans at char gen. Many of them will be especially drawn to the 'exotic' brands of characters, but that doesn't mean that mature gamers can't play those same character types well.

It seems to me like the biggest challenge will be to balance these exotic characters, game-mechanics wise, while keeping the PC varieties equivalent to the NPC versions of those same critters. I can't wait to get my copy of RC to see how they do it.

Not even remotely. Initiate Grade 2 and Sorcery 4 is not very uber.


Latent Awakening. There you go.

Style is something that varies widely in the perception of people. As a GM I tend to see the rules as supplemental to my story, not as something that keeps me from anything I want to run or tell. The setting however is something that has to be respected in my eyes and while I keep to the generel worlds setting, the actual setting of the campain is defined by the "GM". Many things just work different for different people. I know for sure, that not everything you dislike is crap, so I guess we could rant on about the crapiness of oneanothers like and dislikes.



If you go by that, then maybe. I on the other hand ruleout earthdawn completely as it gets rather (to quote) "crappy" when you link it to SR. Also it is not a factor for the regular runner. It is quite safe to define it as a matter of drastic evolution (although one could rant on, on case by case basis). That's the wonderfull thing about fantasies... I mostly do not have to deal with crappy things.




Well the point has allready been made here with the female trigger etc. However, as much as like to put your opinion down as fact, it still is just another interpretition of something that you do not know. You are partly right in the case of a number of animals, yet we are talking about a rather special species of their own, that might somewhat decent from the animals you are refering to. It is something no single one of us can "know" so it is open for interpretation. After all the human is nothing more than a sentient animal - for what it's worth.

Most cats and even dogs are quite successful in conquering human hearts now adays. While that might not be sexual most of the time, i would bet any sum that it often would enough be if those animals had human looks. There are also enough examples throughout history of people going out of their way to "mate" animals (males and females). I do not see the problem of humans being unwilling.



Then your Problem might be, the fact that you either play with morons or that the "morons" play with you. I havn't had such problems for quite a while, as I just do not invite morons to my campaings (though our definition of a moron might differ strongly). I agree though there are morons everywhere, they swarm the streets, and even lead the fate of countries.

Again, such a preference really seems to be just that, a preference for dietary flavor, since no hard data (such as the texts of Essence Drain, Essence Loss, or Dietary Requirement) indicates that a wendigo needs the Essence or flesh of cannibals in order to feed. Therefore, wendigo can eat random strangers' Essence and flesh with no problem, provided the temporary emotional bond requirement is satisfied. Both humans and animals can easily change, adapt, or compromise with their dietary preferences when fulfilling them is too dangerous, costly, difficult, or inconvenient.

A wendigo character that has undergone a runner career or strives to have a network of trustworthy associates and contacts might easily come to see setting up the cannibal cult as too inconvenient or dangerous and give it up. And no, doing so is not a betrayal of the proper way of RP such a character concept. A wendigo PC ought to be concerned about his nature being revealed to society at large and to untrustworthy acquaintances, about getting his Essence fix once a month and his flesh fix once a few days, and about running his business in night hours only. These are the vital aspects of their nature that always ought to be protrayed in the character. Not getting your preferred food flavor ought to be occasion for grumbling and complaining at most.

I also disgree with your interpretation of the Hyde-White character. His main motivations were accumulating magical power and poltical influence for building up his toxic shaman and Infected supremacist agenda, feeding on cannibals seemed rather a secondary concern for him.



Most decent runners ought ot be able to defend themselves easily from a single wendigo with a bit of preparation, if need be, and are way accustomed to face dangerous situations, characters, and creatures. So there's the cofnidence that comes from being well-armed and well-trained. Also, most runners are going to be more informed about the Infected's nature and behavior than average sarariman (clue: a wendigo is really dangerous when he invites you to share a meal of dubious origins, not when he wants to buy a new spell formula from you).



Well, usually no, unless it's something really weirdo cult where the cultists are brainwashed into seeing it as some kind of "communion". Admittedly, in SR world the knowledge that membership in a cannibal cult is going to make you eaten, too, is quite easily available if one cares to look at it. Then again, this could also be said about the risks of alcoholism, drug addiction, and unsafe sex in RL. That is not going to stop a crowd of overconfident or clueless idiots from thinking they are the ones that can get away with it or such. But nonetheless, if a wendigo just wants to do normal runner business with you on a regular basis, not enrolling you in any cult, you ought to be reasonably safe. Not completely so, but then again, nothing is in the runner lifestyle.



True, but occasionally is not regularly or often or purposefully or gratuitously. Hence it is a good precedent for vampires or wendigo not to want and make snacks out of contacts and teammates.



That's your prerogative, and you have my blessing with it. I only remark that wanting to have no business with a published character concept does not give anybody the right to heap accusations of munchkinism and attention-whoring on those who want to use it, or want to make those reasonable necessary adjustments of the concept to make it playable.



Armed conflicts for territory and resources between tribal groups have in all likelihood existed as long as Homo Sapiens has. That's plenty of time to evolve a neurological/psychological trait.



Cultural evolutions do, and sapient animals are quite capable of that.

Had to QFT that.
The problems aren't the rules, as long as they are well-written, functional, clear and balanced.
The problems are egotistic, socially inept players who don't give a fuck about the interests of the rest of the group.
As always.

Simple solution to this problem : don't game with jerks.
In fact, avoid any contact with them, it's something i can wholehartedly recommend.

Sure, because Infected must be trusted, and they wouldn't use that spell against you ever. Also, given what manipulation spells can do to mundanes, even trusting an ordinary magican might be a bit of a stretch for runners (hint: runners are NOT THE MOST TRUSTING PEOPLE). A mage, propably a toxic one, that might consider you food? Sure thing. "We're in need of a mage. Ah, he looks trustworth!" Sorry, btu that's just trying to rationalise the idiocy that accepting a wendigo into the team would be.

Also, the preparaton part makes trustiong the wendigo to watch your back really hard. And no, SR infected re NOT V:tM dumbed down suckers, they're primarily monsters.


And because all runners are overconfident and clueless idiots (but idiots that can easily fight off the wendigo they trust to watch their backs), they're just going to disregard the risk, because hey, they live a risky life anyway, so why care about even more risks anyway? Eh, sure. That totally justifies their high skill levels and professional equipment, too.


It would be with animals that don't have a reproduction cycle taking 15 to 20 years per generation (or very reular tribal conflicts, which I don't see in a world that's as thinly populated as today's Canada).


Something SR4 sadly has a terrible track record with, yes.


Usually, we're talking about generations there, too, though it seems to have accelerated somewhat in the last 100 years. I still don't see society just accepting the Infected, no matter how much the V:tM crowd wants it to.


In a group consisting only of singles who're not closer friends, that might work. In other groups, you have more complicated group dynamics.

I gather that you wouldn't sell spells for any shadowrunners, how very non capitalistic of you.

technically even the chance of an ares weapon being used against ares is low . . because there's so many more targets than ares to aim those barrels at . . so selling these weapons is a good chance of hurting competition because it's likely that these guns will be used against other corps O.o

playing the forum Mary-Sue again Hermit?

couldn't resist, sorry.

If runners weren't willing to trust their teammates then there wouldn't be any runner teams at all. If you're that paranoid then your only choice is to go solo.

When you're in the trenches, so to speak, you trust the guys beside you with your life and they trust you with theirs, not because you want to or because they want to, but simply because none of you has a choice. It doesn't matter if you're a card-carrying White Knight and he's an uppity negro agitator, as long as Jerry is shooting at you you're brothers, closer than any mere blood relatives could be. That's just the way it is because that's the way it has to be if you want to survive the battle.

OK I know that problem but thats long ago. I stopped making that my problem. Normaly I play with closer friends, many of those aren't singles, most of them learned to deal with the moron problem as well. However it appears to me, that I have become quite successful in avoiding morons in my games.

Anyways, I wouldn't trust an infected that easily and would most probably try to get rid of him, still there are quite some situations where I could imagen otherwise. OK so you do not like V:tM but that doesn't necessarily mean you know how to run that game. Ignoring the still human ratio of the infected is doesn't perse increase the characters beleavabillity. Retaining some of that human ratio doesn't dumb down the infected in question. Human society is the huntingground of the infected, so they have to adapt to those (luckily they've been humans before). They also will retain some social needs, that make many of the seek out "company". Ofcause there are many different personalities that react differntly to such an infection.

Again I think it to be wrong, to do away with this OPTION in general, it depends on the concepts of character and campaign.