Yes. My reply was to your saying that you wouldn't know of any disease that'd reduce the sex drive ("pretty much none destroys the sex drive" was how you put it). That's simply bullshit.


That's pretty rare. Viral infection (in case of DNA viruses) includes a short period where the infected cell is 'commandeered' by vidal DNA, but it very rarely integrates into the host's genome; usually, it just sits in the core and replicates using some PCR-ish mechanism, expressing mRNA to get the cell to produce it's hull proteins in the meantime, until the cell's r4essources are drained, and the cloud of new viruses leaves the cell, looking for more cells to infect. The cell dies during that process.

You can use a Virus as a vector for inserting DNA, yes. However, this isn't in the virus' 'interests', as it severely hampers it's propagation.

Damned tropes about genetics.


If you invoke Occam, this is the wrong way to do it. With Occam, it would be "magic, ladies and gentlemen! Magic!"

As I said before, Viruses don't habitually rewrite DNA. They couldn't. DNA cannot just be edited. You can add stuff, cut stuff out and add stuff in it's place, or inhibit stuff, but you cannot just rewrite it. It's not a text file. And it's not in the virus' interests - the Virus only seeks to propagate itself, not grant it's host amazing superpowers. Much like radioactive spider bites won't make you sling spiderwebs and climb walls.

As for the animated corpse part ... read the rules about essence loss to zero and vampirogenesis. The process of 'infection' requires the victim to lose all their essence. No essence equals dead. The character then is reanimated by a mysterious force (propably the Virus). But it's not the character anymore, it's something else, much like a perfect merge insect spirit wouldn't be the character any more but something else.

So yes, according to how SR magic in that respect works, vampires (and other infected, ghouls excluded) ARE animated corpses.


No. The vamp is an essence sink. Sex just consumes energy, like anything the vamp does. And it's energy futilely spent, too. I don't say cvamps shouldn't use sex and seduction as a means to get to prey. But they'd be driven by the need to feed, not to fuck. And that's about where sex stops to make sense for vampires as an 'organism'.

Besides, since sex counts as an addictive now, yes, it CAN cost you essence by favour of SR4's rules. Much like too much surfing the internet can courtesy of Unwired.

OK. My language was imprecise. I accept the rebuke. Let's move on.

Same thing about virus integration DNA's host. It is not necessary. What's necessary is that the virus alters the host's DNA (and this does happen, see below) and that it causes a chronic infection, being continously replicated in the host's tissue (or further infection wouldn't be possible).



First, making a distinction between "rewriting" or "editing" and "add stuff, cut stuff out, add stuff in its place, inhibit stuff" is completely meaningless, since the three words or phrases describe exactly the same process.

Second, even if virii don't habitually rewrite DNA, HMHVV does. It says so in AH's file on the Infected, which being him the author of the Infected chapter in RC, is next to authoritative untill the book himself comes out:



Now, I easily concede to you that most virii don't rewrite the host's DNA, and that HMHVV is unsual in this and in the way it precisely causes many changes that seem roughly customized to create a specific pattern of genetic (and parabiological) changes, largely beneficial to its host or that balance themselves out with drawbacks, and which aren't in the virus strict propagation interests. HMHVV in this kind seems much more like a partially-successful artificial viral genetic vector that someone would develop to create an immortal super-human (super-soldier ?) with all kinds of "amazing superpowers". The project being only partially successful, the power sets aren't fully and reliably transmitted (the differences between the power sets of vampires, nosferatu, and wendigo), does not work adequately in some metavariants (infection may be a viable or beneficial lifestyle change in humans, elves, and orks, it totally shafts dwarves and trolls), bestows some nasty drawbacks (the allergies; honestly I cannot tell if the need for Essence and blood/flesh was an unintended drawaback or deemed an acceptable compromise), and mutation has created a completely harmful variant (the ghoul strain). This is precisely the reason why I strongly suspect that the origin of the HMHVV is artificial. But this is not a good reason to stubbornly deny that HMHVV does what it does, because its behavior does not conform to the usual one of natural virii. We must instead assume that HMHVV isn't probably natural.



It isn't so. The process of HMHVV infection is an exception to the usual Essence loss rules. The infection process needs complete draining of Essence for the virus to take hold of the host, then the subject enters a state of near-death coma, as the virus transforms him, then awakens. The HMHVV can allow an Infected being to sustain 0 Essence for a limited time, but rather longer than what's needed to complete the transformation.



Therefore it is plain that the Infected never actually die during the change, they are genetically and magically transformed metahumans with a chronic viral disease. The virus is not sentient, is not a spirit, and therefore cannot ever reanimate a corpse nor provide it intelligence or motivation. Shedim do and invae make something similar, but they are spirits, completely different order of being from a magically-active virus.

And before you slap the "you cannot keep playing Infected characters" bit in my face as contrary evidence, I will add that by the upcoming rules to play the Infected that bit is made completely irrelevant and obsolete. It was made to cover for a game balance issue, but once rules exist for Infected PC, managing the case of a character that becomes an Infected during play will be as simple as paying the Karma cost for a Quality acquired during play. Hence, no need to assume that the Infected are not the same persons as before, with a chronic magically-active viral infection and some substantial physical, mental, and spiritual changes wrought by it, and who went to a very deep nap for a day while the virus transformed them.

Hence, the evidence to assume that SR vampires/wendigo/banshee are animated corpses is quite lacking.



That organism is sapient, hence can and will do routinely and eagerly engage in a lot of behaviors that make little sense from the strictly biological point of view, but make a lot of sense (e.g. because they are pleasurable) to the cognition of the organism's mind. A vamp or wend only needs to provide himself 1 Essence Point per month, barring the occasional expenditure to boost one's Attributes temporarily. Dietary requirements aren't specified, but there's no need to assume that are any substantially more burdensome in frequency or amount than human need for food, probably rather less. A little more inconvenient to provide for a metahuman prey, but typically nothing that can't be managed in 2-3 hours a day. The rest of the time, the Infected character is a free-willed, sapient being that is freed of the need for nourishment. Assuming that he can't or won't spend his time in any other pleasure or interest beyond staring the wall waiting or plotting for its next meal, is deeply silly, juts like assuming that since humans need food, it will be their only interest and concern. Since sex is a deeply pleasant and rewarding activity, vamps will routinely and eagerly engage in it, just like they will read, listen music, surf the Matrix, use simsense, take a stroll, do sports, train themselves, play games, chat, and any other past time metahumans do for recreation. All of that is energy "futilely spent", just like recreative sex with contraceptives. which doesn't stop billions from engaging in with the deepest enthusiasm. And there is no need to assume that energy spent in these kinds of everyday pursuits doesn't consume but minute, fractional amounts of Essence that the Infected regains with his monthly 1-Essence past. It's all "routine expenses" that go easily disposed of in the monthly 1-Essence budget.

Given SR's background, I'd rather say some none-elf was kind of jealous about the Immortality some elves posess.


Vampires don't die during infection? You yourself quoted they do! See

You need to be (clinically) dead to be revived. You cannot revive living things, much like you cannot wetten water.


We're talking about a culture where sacrificing hundreds of slaves in blod magic rituals was deemed totally okay. I think they just didn't give a damn, IF HMHVV really WAS mago-gengineered.


Of course, there also is SR's critters' tendency to magically adapt to changing environments on a species-wide scale (the unicorn in ED, for example), so it might just be an unusual case of symbiosis. Anyway, it's still not certain whether the virus or the sapient infected is 'in control'. Oh, and HMHVV isn't limited to humans, as sasquatches can also be infected by bruckner-langer. That and the fact that the virus had only some 1000 years in total, with a 6000 years dormancy period in between, to mutate, would speak for the odd symbiosis and against your superhuman vampire plan theory.


I was thinking along the lines of the Virus, not the host. And no, sex doesn't make sense from the Virus' point of view.


... like practicing and studying their newly gained magics, powers, or patrolling their territory to keep out other infected who might ruin thier easy snatch-someone-every-2-3-days lifestyle ...


Don't forget the admiring themselves and playing the 'gifted children of the night' game (They cannot do all that in daytime anyway, or they will suffer 4P damage every turn they're exposed to sunlight). No, seriously, that's a bit too Ann Rice for what SR until now propagated. In SR, Vampires were ugly, beastly predators, sometimes hiding behind a mask that appeared benevolent, but never, EVER just the ncie people next door (it's not WoD, it's SR).

But vampires have a moderate allergy to sunlight granting them a -4 to all skill test in sunlight wood deals 1p damage a minute of exposer.



and page 81 of the BBB describes what these allergys mean in a large table.

Ah crap, confused the allergies. Craptasitc. Every vampire a daywalker.

That would have been the main motivator, but whomever magogeneticist genius was behind the whole operation, might have thought that throwing artificially-induced magical aptitude and some inborn powers would have made the package all that good. And actually, immortal elves do have some of those (the magical aptitude, the immunity to poisons and diseases), the whole project could indeed be an attempt to duplicate the perks of immortal elves, only better, with a viral carrier for the mago-gengineering.



It also says



Near-death, not actual or complete death. In other words, an induced mago-viral coma, rather like a pharmacological coma, while HMHVV does its rebuilding. Although it may not be completely correct, it's not unsual to say that people "revive" from a deep coma.



This is probably the most likely explanation.



Of course, it might also be a case of symbiosis, the virus reworking the host to be the perfect super-predator. However, since HMHVV was unheard of in the ED timeline, the natural evolution of the virus, and the mutation of the 4 different main strains, ought to have happened in the timeline you describe. Now what is the most likely hypothesis: some talented amoral human mago-genetist develop its "immortal super-mage-soldier" viral serum (possibly both the vampire and nosferatu strains, or the one is the close mutation of the other), and then it mutated in the other two totally harmful strains (ghoul and loup-garou), and the latter made the jump species to sasquatch, or the virus naturally evolved to such an amazing degree of symbiosis, developed the variant strains, and made the species jump, all on tis own. Both are possible, but actually the fact that the timespan for the mutations is limited, and that the species jump only occurred once, supports the artificial hypothesis.

Oh, and the virus isn't sapient, noting indicates it is, while several metavariants are. Therefore, it can't be "in control" of anything. At most, it makes some bodily, mental, and spiritual changes that give the host new instincts and drives, and in the most unfortunate cases destroys intellect. Such changes may be profound, but the idea that the Infected are mindless meat sacs possessed by a sapient, microscopic shedim or invae is deeply farfecthed. Nothing indicates that HMHVV is a spirit, quite the contrary, and a bodily creature as tiny as a virus being sapient is laughable. If you want innocent humans or their corpses possessed by malevolent alien intelligences, you have pleny in shedim and invae but leave the Infected to be the metahumans with magogenetic changes induced by a chronic viral magically-active disease they obviously are.



So ? Once the next Essence/blood/flesh meal is assured, the host decides what to do.



All activities that show a sapient mind using intelligence and planning to realize the virus-given needs and urges in productive strategy. Which again shows the sapient host is in charge, and the dumb virus give the hints. But again, doing these things only takes a fraction of the available time and resources. Once the basic needs are fulfilled, the host is free to occupy its time with other pursuits (which might well be even more training and patrolling/exploring, if that is their kind of thing. But it's personal preference. Not a biological drive. Humans have biological drives to eat and fuck. But they are not compelled to do that, only that, all the time.

And please nobody denies that SR vamps and ilk are predators. They are. They cannot ever be "nice". Nonetheless, as much as it concerns the sapient variants, they ought not to be made into mindless, brutish predators. They are intelligent ones, and in some case, they might also be "civilized" predators, especially in the dog-eat-dog culture of SR, and in the shadowrunner subculture where killing for hire is a respectable profession. Not a real difference between killing or mutilating for earning a lifestyle, and killing or mutilating to feed one's Essence budget (even if recent genetherapy developments have made Essence a renewable resource, albeit at substantial time and expense). But if a metahuman bits diet isn't a problem for your ethical compass, nor your mind the allergies and the social issues, vampires, nosferatu, and wendigo have a good case describing themselves as "gifted". They will surely skip the unsufferable goth emo crap, and this must suffice. In a month or so, Infected PC shadowrunners are coming. Best take accustomed to their presence.

Reversible death, of course. But this is kind of contradictory, Ancient. Either the virus revives the carrier, or the virus doesn't kill him and releases him from coma. Now what is it?


1) There are microscopic astral presences in the SR universe, they're called FAB III.
2) Think collective consciousnes or swarm intelligence.
3) The invae was another example of a changed character not being that character at all any more, and therefore not acting along human lines of thinking.


Of course it can. Think of Rabies and how it induces behavior alterations in humans. Actually, Rabies-infected humans are very likely the source of the werewolf and vampire of legend. Please note that, while still pretty much sentient, Rabies-infected humans aren't eager to have sex. They're eager to bite.

And what do Metavariants have to do with the Undead?


Uh yeah. Ann Rice all over. "Oh, I'm a predator, but aside from that, I do enjoy my dark brooding about my cursed existence, immortal beauty, unbelievable power, and BDSM orgies every Monday, Wednesday, Friday and Sunday."

Of course, if that's well received in your group, more power to you and all. I must say I find it totally ridiculous.


Sure, but that won't make me like Count Crapula and his ilk any more. And not in my games. They're not.

We'll see how the general fan base receives them.

A desperate holding the the etymological roots of a word to support your case is not really principled. The Oxford dictionary (as well as common usage) says "revive" means:


If it only and literally meant restoration to life from a state of death, then the word would not have actually existed until the late twentieth century when medical technology progressed to the point of being able to re-start hearts, whatever. The text that states the person transforming into a vampire enters a state of near death is conclusive and can only be denied by someone with a pre-existing case to prove.

You fail virology and folklore.

Rabies doesn't make people want to bite. It causes brain damage which induces paranoia and delusions. It also damages the nerves such that the throat and jaw gradually become paralyzed. Werewolf folklore was probably inspired by Jeffrey Dahmer style serial killers conflated with pre-Christian shamanic transformation folklore, real fur-wearing survivalists, and violent drunks.
(Note that werewolf transformation as bite-transmitted contagion was invented in The Wolf-Man starring Lon Chaney, Jr. Traditional methods of werewolf transformation are wholly magical, among them are wearing a wolfskin belt and drinking beer.)

Anne Rice vampires, by the way, were unable to have sex. This is made a rather big deal of in some of her novels, particularly the Tale of the Body Thief when, due to body swapping with a mortal, Lestat gets to boink for the first time in centuries. This was, of course, before the invention of Viagra, but I don't believe even such drugs would cure Lestat's ED. Having impotent and frigid vampires would be more like Anne Rice, not less. One thing about Bram Stoker's Dracula is that he was essentially a serial rapist with a bevy of brainwashed brides.

Revive may also mean regain consciousness. You may revive from a coma.



Bacteria, not virii. And they are not sapient. Nobody denies that HMHVVis a magically-active virus, it couldn't do half of the things it does otherwise, what's being denied here is that it is an alien intelligence riding the mindless husk of the host.



No indication whatsoever that HMHVV may possess one so far, in four SR editions.



Apples and oranges. Invae are the example of an alien consciousness and intelligence subsuming the original one, not of the original one being given some edits by a magical disease.



Possible about the origin of the legend in RL, although in the SR universe it was random mana spikes in ancient and middle age times causing occasional activations of HMHVV.

Also, rabies-infected humans are still the same person, although deeply changed. They aren't animated corpses nor mindless husks ridden by alien sapient viral swarm intelligences. It is true that the brain disease caused by rabies makes the victims having serious trouble with organized thinking and behavior. But the sapient Infected aren't ridden by such overwhelming and constant need to feed. They are proven to be in such good self-control as to study magic regularly, and set up complex conspiracies. Hence, the Rabies example isn't fitting.



The only Undead that exist in the SR universe are bodies possessed by Spirits, which HMHVV isn't. I was meaning variants of the Infected: vampires, wendigo, nosferatu and IIRC banshee are sapient. Goblins, Dzoo-no-qua, loup-garou, fomorians, and most ghouls aren't.



They won't be any Ann Rice crap without the goth emo brooding over one's "curse". Morally-challenged characters that get Infected and don't mind the dietary requirements, the allergies, or the need for secrecy are going to enjoy their immortality and power, yes. What's so strange about it ? The desire to endure and succeed, at others expense if need be, and the predatory urge, are deeply human features. Why should one expect otherwise. The ones that can't adapt to the Infected lifestyle probably throw themselves into a bonfire after a few nigths. The ones that endure have found an inner balance with their predatory needs and can enjoy what pleasures are to be found.

Personally I find RP a vampire that enjoys or has found peace with his existence much more believable and pleasurable than one who's an endless string of angsty emo chest-beating and cursing one's fate. If you are so fucked-up over your existence, please throw yourself into the sun and spare the universe your misery.

And from this PoV, I find I do not mind a vampire character having a regular sex life and enjoying it at all, provided it does not blows out to pornographic proportions. It's just a natural and expected party of the everyday background. The angsty emo vampires, that's the ones I find annoying and ridiculous. Not the ones that have a sex life or gasp enjoy what they are.

Oh, the "curse?" fraction. They come in a close second after the angsty emo variant. All the benefits, but none of the drawbacks. Of course, all other runners gladly accept a Vampire in their party, because hey, it's a PC! And Alergies and such are ignored to the point of ridiculousness.

What you want to play is apparentlyan ordinary shadowrunner who just happens to have vampire superpowers, no drawbacks, no persecution, he's accepted among other runners (who are all cannibalistic anyway, or nearly so, and would gladly become infected by any HMHVV strain that won't turn them into zombie-ish ferals, because life is like that) and thus, the PCs, by default, he may be a bit off the moral compass, but jeez, he's justa regular guy with superpowers and a certain blood lust.

That's what this sounds like. No, sorry, this is like playing an unbound drake who never is harassed by any dragon's shdow teams to be bagged, or a shifter who just acts like a human being would, despite the fact she's actually a solitary, predatory and deeply territorial feline.

No, just that moral issues are not part of the drawbacks.



And we all know that PCs instead must come with a Compulsion (Vampire-Hunter) and must slay all known Infected characters on sight, no matter what the personal bonds, because hey, they suck Essence !



What, have sunlight, wood, and ferrous mentals drop from the face of Earth ?



No, just one that does not roll in the mud and tears clothes because of what he is.



Society is one thing, runner subculture is another, the PC group is a third. Persecution from society is plausible, as is social diffculties from some runners. Others will accept the character, as will be his closest associates or they won't be such. Of course, there's always hiding one's nature.



They may, or they may be not. The Infected PC obviously hasn't such issues, or he won't have survived to run the shadows.



I just assume that most runners that don't have problems with killing for hire won't have problems with that, no, because let's be frank, apart from the gory details, the moral issues involved are just the same.



Never doesn't mean such teams (or vampire hunters for the Infected) have to show up every session.



Yes, because being a sapient critter does not mean they can ever learn any new tricks, unreasoning instincts are always on the top, so they cannot stand the presence of anybody, everywhere, for whatever reason, even the most familiar and trusted associates, and will tear their throats on sight, because hey they are animals.

I hope the other stuff of RC is going to be useful for you somehow, given how much you apparently loathe the non-standard PC options.

One thing that most people forget is that vampires don't have to kill anyone. They just need a token amount of blood ( a love bite will do) and a bit of energy that no one except magicians, adepts, technomancers, and heavily cybered samurai will miss. Vampires don't even gain any benefits from killing the vast majority of the population which has fractional essence. A vampire can't drain less than a single point of Essence so killing Mr. 5.4 Essence character serves no purpose. In fact, the average vampire better off not fully draining a victim because of the rather extreme precautions required to not have a revenge-seeking vampire on his trail. And, lets not forget that they only need one point of essence per month. That isn't much at all.

And after ten moths of treatment your essence will be right as rain I can see some vampires paying for the treatment after draining some essence. Not all of them but some will care about the food.

Lets not forget that there are indeed essence restoring treatments in existance now(Revitalization). It was designed to restore the essence hole after the removal of cyberware, but it's not that much of a stretch to use it to restore drained essence after a vampire attack or anything else that drains essence. (Augmentation, pg 84 and 88-89)

Actually Revitalization is specifically told to be able and restore Essence Loss from vampiric powers. I quote Augmentation, p. 89:

Thanks. I didnt read all of it again. I was working from memory.

Never Mind. Having one's entire collection of PDF sourcebooks at one's fingertips can be quite handy.

However, I feel the need to discuss a little bit that Hyzmarca in passing:



Now, I find this odd. As far as I understand the workings of the Essence Drain and the Infection powers, draining a victim to 0 Essence and having him raise as an Infected should be different actions. Since Infection is its own power, and not a side effect of Essence Drain, with different actions for both, I was under the impression that the critter ought to do something else purposefully to pass the Infection. By reasoning, this is a virus so they ought to put some bodily fluid of theirs in the victim's mouth, or open wound. Now, if HMHVV is present in the saliva also, the transfer may took place automatically, but the infection only takes hold if the Essence is zero. One must assume that the virus dies off quickly if the victim has nonzero Essence. OTOH, it is not fully clear, either, if Essence Drain always requires the transfer of blood and flesh from victim to predoator, sicne it seems to be a primarily psychic-magical process. Even so, there are means to prevent the passing of saliva from the Infected: if one cuts open a vein or cuts away a bit of flesh, and then drains the blood into a vessel or snatches the bit away, the feeding should be clean.

All this to reason that even if the victim is fully drained, there might be pleny of ways to prevent it from rainsing as another Infected. Nonetheless, I think the following points, in addition to the ones raised in the thread so far, should be clarified, as they may be useful to manage Infected characters:

A) Does Essence Drain always require the transfer of flesh/blood or is a psychic "touch" power, or the flesh/blood is only required if the vampire/wendigo wants to feed on that, too ?

B) Does Infection automatically occurs if the Infected bites the victim (the virus is in the saliva) and fully drains it ? Or does he require to touch the victim and "will" the infection to occur, in addition to the biting, or to do some other purposeful act: feeding the victim some of his own infected blood comes to mind ?

Don't y'all wish you'd asked these questions during the chat?

Dear Aunty Ancient:
you suck ._.
i love you and your work for your style and sense of humor but damn you are one smug tease *grins*

C: "Slot off frag-face!"
His eyes glow red, he bares his fangs, and the vampire attacks!

...so he didn't want to sell me frag grenades after all!

@ Ancient:

While I understand many of your problems with dhampirs, much of your dislike seems to stem from how the characters are used (and what they thus end up representing) and the dhampir itself as a concept.

Dhampirs play an excellent role in the hero cycle, representing the intrinsically flawed hero who has to fight against his... etc etc and so forth, more hero cycle examples, enter archetypes, and so on. I'm sure you know all that stuff, so I'm not going to bother writing the whole thing.

And really, to expand on the idea that it's the source (book, role playing system, whatever) as opposed to the concept of the dhampir that is at fault, many of the movies involving them are quiet good. The Blade movies are fun, and after some inadvertent research, I found out they're actually kinda deep. They just forgot to bother mentioning it in the actual movies. And the Vampire Hunter D movies are other examples of good dhampir movies.

But on the idea of dhampir themselves, I totally respect your choice to not include them. With that being said, there is some basis for them from a medical basis. Some diseases can be partially gained, like sicle cell, for example. You don't nessessarily die unless you inheret it from both parents, it's quite possible to live with only partial sicle cell, and in fact in some areas this has led to wierd natural selection situations (where the existance of malaria in fact makes it more likely that partial sicle cell individuals will be more likely to survive to breed). The point of course is that with HMHVV being a disease, it could be possible that if it were inherited, you might only get part of the disease. Of course there are no real world examples, because I don't know of any diseases that give cool powers. And there is nothing in Shadowrun that I know of that would imply the disease could be inherited this way. Just wanted to point out the theoretical possibility.

Makes me wonder about a "partial" infection of HMHVV- all the symptoms, none of the cool powers. Unfortunately our intrepid hero is a sun-allergic, permanently dual-natured, Essence sucker, without regeneration, Awakening, or super strength.

It'd be less fun than the 'LULz ur bulits dun kill meh i has regenz an paorbults' kind of vampire in combat, but a lot more interesting.

*laughs* Just like sicle cell gives you only part of the badness that it is, presumably you would get the standard dhampir thing: only part of the bonuses, but reduced penalties. Being a magical disease though, who knows if you would get 100% of some penalties (or bonuses), and none of some of the other ones? I don't know how "steady" a disease HMHVV is, though based on the number of strains it has, I wouldn't put any money on the results.

(Though while permanent dual natured would have lots of downsides, at least you could practice your "Astral Combat: Inish Boxing.")

Sickle cell is an autosomic recessive mutated allele. HMHVV is a contagious virus. Being a half-vampire makes about as much sense as having half-AIDS.

I don't get why, with an upcoming book that screams "Hey, looking for that special character? That really special character? Shapeshifter? AI? Four-Armed freak? Human race variant (which seems like "metahuman" to me)? Non-human sapient race? Here is it, all in one book, now you too can be special!" someone would rant about dhampirs being wrong.

I really don't get this double-standard.

Because they are.

No. More on a "it's a ticking time bomb and might turn on me for a snack any given time" basis. Not to ven mention Wendigo runners.


Yes, and all soldiers are essentially just socially acceptable mass murderers.


No. They will just not seek company and friendship because they aren't pack animals. They might tolerate comrades for some time, but never befriend them like a human would. They might even get used to their presence eventually, but never act like a loyal team mamber, simply because they are alien like that. They'll think more along the lines of a dragon.

Much like dragons, while sentient, act along nonhuman guidelines. Why not shifters? Except from players using them to live out their furry fantasies (or, even worse, play werewolf in an SR setting)?


Lifestyles and new contact and enemy options are great. I can live with Metavariants, but sorry, I indeed loathe oWoD-ish characters and character concepts, propably as much as players who revel in "i am nfected, I am powerful and immortal" ann rice bullshit. I can live with shifters, too, but expect them to be played primarily like the animal would be, not entirely human.

No, this doesn't mean they'd kill everyone they meet, because, get this, animals don't usually attack people just because, despite shit movies showing otherwise (according to Jurassic Park franchise films, dinosaurs must've died out for a lack of humans, because they don't seem to eat anything else). But yes, solitary felines aren't gonna be much abotu group hugs and living in the team HQ. They can team up for short periods of time, but cannot integrate into a pack structure. Wolves work. Seals work. Even bears, monkeys, pigs, horses and lions might work. Tigers? Eagles? Sorry, no. Good for one-shots, stories or NPC characters, but not for prolonged campaigns.

Using that arguement people would be (and are) more afraid of Technomancers. They can hack you, you know, and they are, like, for real, you know. Still, they are a viable character option. Weird.

Don't get me started on the fuckup with Technos. Just don't.

But yes, that argument can be applied to Neo and his clones, and damned wells hould be.

You should know what a Neo is, before you call something his clone.

Hows that differs from most shadowrunners.

Please, some runne rgroups live in one HQ. That's whom I refer to. And most big cat shifters I've seen played were acting like some sort of giant house car, which just isn't what those animals are alike (they can't purr, for instance).

they can shift from human to cat, who's to say that they can NOT purr?
have you ever tried to get a shifter in cat form to purr?
and not just from him getting a full tummy out of your meat?
maybe because they are big magical kitties they CAN purr . .
if the cat grew up with humans why should they be hostile towards them?
today there's monks that live with tigers without too much of a problem . .
bigger problem i would see for this living arrangement is how to make him clean out his own litter-box

Because only small cats can purr. Tigers and the likes cannot.

Tigers can't shift to human either.
They are NOT Tigers, they are magical Creatures that don't even adhere to the laws of physics . .
if the players say they can purr, damn straight they can . .

I think people are missing the forest for the trees, here. Nobody gives a shit whether were-tigers can actually purr or not.

The original point of the last page or two seemed to be that many players use 'exotic' player-character backgrounds as an excuse to create 'Mary-Sue' PCs who abuse game balance and/or make themselves the center of attention. This is often even worse when the game starts creating options that offer the best of all possible worlds (dhampir). YMMV, but many players don't enjoy a game where the other player across the table hogs the limelight by killing everything with his vamp-y uberness before they have a chance to act (Ooooo, I killed the whole opposing team by myself - aren't I cool?), or who forces the game to revolve around them ("Sorry, I know that you wanted to infiltrate S-K today, but that run is now compromised because the drake-hunter team has shown up to capture me...again.")

That may not be an issue in your game - maybe you and your players don't have to run with munchkin wannebes or attention whores. But I suspect it's been a problem for many people, and it's absolutely been a problem for me in the past. So that's why many of us choose to 'just say no'.

That said, I'm looking forward to reading AH's take on it, and hope that he's found some ways to overcome those limitations.

According to wiki, were-tigers... I mean tigers... do in fact purr, however members of the Panthera genus only pur on the exhale.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purr

They have links to a *.gov site and American Wildlife Foundation supporting it.

How that differs from a good combat mage or AoE damage sammy.

That isn't a problem with the player. That's a problem with the GM. A good GM gives all the PCs' backstories and character development arcs, if any, equal playtime. And he integrates them into the current run rather than having them come out of nowhere.

No, a Drake hunting team won't show up before they can break into SK, unless that's part of a long-planned plot. What will happen is that they will break into SK only to find that the MacGuffin that they've been hired to steal is nothing but the stuff that dreams are made of, a worthless decoy cooked up to Lofwyr to justify hiring the runners to break into his own facility where he has a drake-hunting team waiting to capture the team's drake. Of course, they got paid up front so it's all cool. And, of course, Lofwyr is also conspiring with the stoic street sam's vengeful ex-lover while the team mambo's accidentally created sadictic grande zombie has combined forces with the decker's drone-hijacking free sprite nemesis. While the laywer whose suit the razorgirl accidently damaged when she was trying to hold down a steady job as a dry cleaner is both suing her for more than the Big Ten's combined annual profits and hiring ninja assassins to off the whole team who happen to be of the same clan that the dishonored American Ninja was exiled from.

I care.

I'm lovin' AH's rant! Most amusing.

I don't think that weird character backgrounds are necessarily a problem, but they do tend to be favoured by powergamers and attention whores, which are usually a pain to play with.

Having any character tweaked to outdo all the other characters in every role, or enough roles that they can force the game to revolve around them is disruptive and spoils the game for everyone else.

Consequently I'd consider a desire to play a half-drake dhampire cyberzombie extremely suspect, but wouldn't outright kick the player if they could justify it. And then I'd take every opportunity to make them miserable for the entertainment of the rest of the group.

Sorry, then. I shouldn't have made it a blanket statement like that.

I understand that GMs should work to give everyone their chance in the sun. However, everyone shouldn't always be harrassed equally. The whole point of the extra build points you get for the 'hunted' flaw is that the GM will take that pound of flesh in unexpected and annoying ways, regardless of whether you're hunted because you happen to be a drake, or you got the Mafia don's daughter pregnant, or you're a ghoul with a bounty on your head. So the ghoul who was caught humping the Yak boss's son as part of their backstory is going to (probably) cause the team more inconvenience than the professional ex-merc who kept a low profile (i.e. not hunted).

or the good old cyber/bio combat monster troll in SR3 Times *g*

but i will give the point about vampires and the such being used as mary sue PC's . .
i still wanna play a were-tiger/tiger shaman just to be able to say:"i am my own totem!"

oh, and about tiger pussring? i care!

Did that, got the t-shirt (but then it shrunk in the wash).

And I may as well get out and say, I'm an attention whore (in the looney category), but my past 10 characters have all been humans and orks, never interested in a vampire.

yeah, i like the attention in the looney group too . . at least, if i can switch it off . .
so no shifters or vampires for me either, and no metavariant either . . .

This tells me it did not happen to you personally, so where does all the hate come from? All we have here are people who never had the problem and those who think most people have that problem. This is really odd.

STOP THE PRESSES!!!!!

I have serious issues with Vampires as PC's or Mary Sues etc. So quit the sweeping generalizations to prop up your lame discussion.
I do not have Technomancers but I have metavarients and SURGEd traits, so to each there own.

In fact I came up with the multiarmed SURGE trait for such, posted it here and have played a Multiarmed PC.

Go back into the past threads and you can find many examples of player/GM frustrations due to the many known issues in SR4.

WMS

I still don't get why some people are ok with AIs, Free Spirits, Drakes, Shapeshifters and Vampires, but blow a gasket at Dhampirs - especially since SR Vampires are, for all accounts, "Daywalkers".

I have shapeshifters in my world as PC's but so far after serious study by my players, they say no way!!!. I figure they will say the same about Vampires, AI's, Free Spirits and Drakes.

WMS

I am rather skeptical that a character with an "exotic" background or abilities, in a well-made point-buy system, can ever be a threat to game balance. What happens is that potential that could have invested in attributes, skills, and gear, goes into inborn powers instead. So what ? the player was obviously interested in having a character whose main effectiveness was in inborn powers. Other players' characters will have other main perks. If there are no unbalanced abilities, and everyone has the same points, everything will balance out. As for attention whores, really, they will always find something to do their stuff, exotic background or not. If their characters have mundane backgrounds, they will give them obnonious personalities, and insist on RP them over the top.