QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Jul 23 2008, 09:47 PM)

Yes, they did not go out of their way to define the difference between cover and concealment. They don't say "concealment and cover are the same thing", do they? They just mention that if you find "cover" then you are safe from suppressive fire. They left the difference between cover and concealment up to GM discretion.
No, there is cover, and there is nothing. There is no concealment, not "left to GM discretion" it just doesn't exist as far as RAW is concerned.
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Jul 23 2008, 09:47 PM)

So, using your discretion, do you think drywall is cover? For purposes of targeting, if I (an unaugmented human) have a fully automatic weapon in a pitch black room and start spraying bullets at the concealed people with in the room, is that really any different than if they're behind drywall? I can't see either in pitch black or through drywall, and whether travelling through darkness or drywall, bullets are still going to be going at lethal velocities. Think about it, if suppressive fire doesn't suffer blind fire modifiers, then it shouldn't suffer any visual modifiers. Suppressive fire is basically waving a fully automatic weapon in some-one's direction, and if there is a layer of drywall inbetween? Too bad for the drywall. I don't make the logic leap that you seem to that just because the RAW does not define cover and concealment, that drywall is cover.
Drywall is cover, because there is no concealment. If you an unaugmented human spray bullets in a dark room suppressing it, then anyone not prone or behind cover will have to make their tests to avoid being hit. If they are behind drywall, a cabinet, desk, other person, etc, then they're safe and don't have to make a test. If they're just standing there going "wha?" then they make a test.
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Jul 23 2008, 09:47 PM)

So if you really think drywall is cover, and negates bullets, and feel you want to rule that way in your game, I won't stop you. But the Shadowrun devs did not tell you to do that.
It is cover, because there is no concealment. I never said it negates bullets, but considering that when you suppress, the area is 10 meters wide at the end, and up to 2 meters high, that means that for every cubic meter of space, one bullet passes through. If you don't at least have a vague idea of where you need to be suppressing, then I don't think that its unreasonable to say that the cover they have protects them from the full unaimed autofire.
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Jul 23 2008, 09:47 PM)

As for the thermographic vision debate, your photographic citation doesn't prove your argument that thermal imaging can only pick up heat through cracks. Most of those photographs show heat escaping through solid surfaces, not through cracks. According to wikipedia's (Unless it's not a valid source for this argument in your opinion) articles on thermodynamics (particularly heat, heat transfer, convection, conduction and radiation), heat travelling through cracks (for example, through rubble), would be convection, which is heat transfer through particles such as fluids and gases. However, there are two more ways for heat to transfer. Conduction is heat travelling through solid objects (as seen in the photos of houses you posted), and heat is also transferred through the infrared spectrum, which is a longer wavelength than visible light, and to a degree, more penetrative.
Yes, heat can travel through things via conduction. Did you check those pictures of people wearing clothes? Notice how their clothes were notably colder than their face? And thats clothes, which are quite porous actually. Please, site something to backup your claim.
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Jul 23 2008, 09:47 PM)

So, depending on how accurate you think thermographic vision is in the 2070's, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that body heat can travel via a mixture of convection (eg. heat through air), conduction (heat travelling through the drywall), and infrared radiation (heat penetrating the drywall). You mentioned static objects, but from the example, the people on either side of this drywall barrier are standing there and talking to eachother, so if I was GM then I would rule that in the time the characters had remained static, their heat signatures had at least partially penetrated the drywall (they would be smudges on the wall of course, not full figures).
It can travel through, sure, given a long enough time. Not nearly a few minutes, not even someone sleeping in bed all night would do it though, people simply aren't hot enough to do that.
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Jul 23 2008, 09:47 PM)

edit:
As much as I hate to say it, Shadowrun is probably on par with robocop when it comes to realism.
Just in case there was a misunderstanding, I didn't suggest that a thermographically gifted shadowrunner would be able to literally see a person through a wall, but you might get traces of their heat signature if the wall is thin and they are standing still.
Now this is just hearsay, but I have heard that there are rifle scopes for highly penetrative sniper rifles that can spot people via some form of imaging system (thermographic I assumed, but it could be anything, even ultrasound for heartbeat) in order to nail them through a wall. Is there any truth to this or am I making things up?
Radar vision in shadowrun you can, thermo you can't. If you could see through walls with thermo, there would be rules for the thickness of the wall, just like with radar.
QUOTE (Jackstand @ Jul 23 2008, 10:08 PM)

If you're using suppressive fire against targets who are already beyond a wall, I don't think that wall counts as cover. There are various different ways of handling firing through objects, and in this case, the wall is not providing them cover, but is a barrier which is fired through. You could consider the wall only to be cover if the one doing the suppressing was not taking the wall into account while shooting at those he is suppressing.
You can't see them. You're firing unaimed autofire into a 10x2xY space, at people who you have no idea where they are. The shooter is not taking the wall into account, he can feel free to "suppress" the area, but since everyone there has cover from him, they are unaffected. Again, I think the easiest explanation for this is because there is only one bullet per cubic meter of space, there isn't a very good chance of hitting someone, and due to the cover, basically negates what chance you had.