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VagabondStar
The popular notion of Special Forces doesn't always seem to jive with the reality. Where most people may believe Special Forces are unstoppable killing machines worthy of the title "Rambo", the reality of the situation is quite a bit more diverse and balanced than that.

Special Forces draw their lineage from the OSS's (WWII's precursor to the CIA) Clandestine Paramilitary Wing. This organization's mission was to actually arm indigenous people and train them in unconventional warfare. In short: To start Insurgencies against unfriendly powers.

The primary Mission of USSOF is summed up in their motto "De Oppresso Liber" To liberate the oppressed.


Now how has the awakening changed all this?
psychophipps
Not very much, I'm sure. Add a few mages that qualify when you can find them and go back to work. Magic seems like it would be a great idea but skull-humping your new "friends" into doing what you want tends to seriously backfire in way too short a timeframe to be helpful at all.

An old character of mine was a corporate force multiplication specialist (read: CorpSec SF). He would go into the back 40, find people who were pissed at the corps like eco-terror groups, train them in insurgency tactics, and help guide them through a few missions and the like "to help them along".
Of course, his new terrorist class would target his corps enemies. Or he would find out about something owned by his corp that would be set for demolition anyway that he would sick his new crew on so his corp could collect on the insurance and double-dip. The crew got a bit too good or stopped being helpful to his own corps agenda anymore, he would sell them out to whomever CorpSec he'd been pissing off (usually multiple clients just to be sure they all got dead) and fade back into the shadows.

Good times...
Cheops
I still really like my idea of the Black Pearl warship in SR and a Delta-type force of magicians sent into the jungle would work this perfectly. A small force of Awakened Deltas sent into the Maracaibo Basin by Amazonia and given all the materials they need could get the locals building 19th century warships, enchanted to act as vessels, and sending them as coastal raiders against the Azzies.
Sir_Psycho
But that was World War II, the situation has changed since then. That kind of operation is the province of an Intelligence Agency, most likely that Central one. Special Forces are a different thing, now.

The main thing to factor in is that in the sixth world, global powerbases have divided so many times. We don't just have governments supporting insurgencies now. We have governments, corporations, dragons, immortal elves, policlubs, militaries, free spirits and the list goes on. That's why there is so many groups in Loose Alliances. They can always find some-one to bankroll them and support them.

The awakening will be hard thing to cope with for insurgency training. If you want to train a militant rabble, and one of them is a awakened, you have to send one of your magicians (astrally, I assume) to go check. Then the training will probably have to be one on one, or another small number, and it's time intensive. Not much need to train the magicians in combat spells though. We've determined on dumpshock already that a large band of mooks with AK-97's are deadly. So an insurgent magician will probably be focused on support spells, like stealth, invisibility, heal, etc. spirits are also a great force multiplier, and are useful for their concealment power.

training the rabble is much easier, however. If you can set up a makeshift medical shop in their mountain hide-out, and bulk buy skillwires, then you can easily send a doctor or three there and just have them wire up all the insurgents, and then copy them a bunch of activesofts like infiltration, explosives, automatics etc. You can even give them all goggles with sensors in them and a spotter drone, load up some tacsofts, and you've basically got a low-cost special forces team.
psychophipps
QUOTE (Cheops @ Jul 26 2008, 04:33 PM) *
I still really like my idea of the Black Pearl warship in SR and a Delta-type force of magicians sent into the jungle would work this perfectly. A small force of Awakened Deltas sent into the Maracaibo Basin by Amazonia and given all the materials they need could get the locals building 19th century warships, enchanted to act as vessels, and sending them as coastal raiders against the Azzies.


Yeah, too bad the Azzies would just haul out a few blood mages and whup they asses, eh? Trying to go magic vs. magic against Azzies?!?

Not exactly the Chinese way of long life, neh?

Besides, a true "Delta Force" of any type would combine technology and magic as a cohesive total strategy anyway. The surgical application of the correct type of force and a low operational footprint are the hallmarks of special operations forces, let alone "The best of the best" groups like Delta and Seal 6/NavSpecWarDevGru.
AngelisStorm
@ Pyscho: Well actually that's what the Green Berets do. They are our special forces that specialize in training up locals to fight the man.

@ Vagabond: But they are super killing machines. When they are able to do what they are trained to do. Take 300 Navy Seals and tell them to hold a air field... not a good day, as history shows.

(Of course, if you want special forces to take an airfield, you send the Army Rangers. Their specialty: being the biggest "special forces" numerically around. smile.gif)
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Jul 26 2008, 11:26 PM) *
The awakening will be hard thing to cope with for insurgency training. If you want to train a militant rabble, and one of them is a awakened, you have to send one of your magicians (astrally, I assume) to go check. Then the training will probably have to be one on one, or another small number, and it's time intensive. Not much need to train the magicians in combat spells though. We've determined on dumpshock already that a large band of mooks with AK-97's are deadly. So an insurgent magician will probably be focused on support spells, like stealth, invisibility, heal, etc. spirits are also a great force multiplier, and are useful for their concealment power.


The big problem is that your magicians have to be of the same tradition as their students, or at least they must possess enough arcana skill and magical knowledge to convert their spells and techniques to another tradition. For hermetics or classic shamans then is easy. But when your dealing with the obscure magical traditions of an isolated third-world tribe, you might have to spend more time developing a framework of conventions in which you can translate your skills than you spend actually training the third-world magicians.
Sir_Psycho
I imagine the best way to do it would be to subcontract it out to a magic user who experiences their magic using a compatible paradigm. I'm sure you could hire an islamic mage to do such thing if training middle-eastern insurgents.

However, for smaller more isolated groups (like the tribes you mentioned) you would need a specialist. A mage with a high instruction skill, arcana skill and the correct language skills (most likely linguasofts). But then again, if you're using hermeticism, it might be easier to just educate them in mathematics and magical formulae. I'm not sure which would be more efficient.
Cheops
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Jul 27 2008, 05:39 AM) *
Yeah, too bad the Azzies would just haul out a few blood mages and whup they asses, eh? Trying to go magic vs. magic against Azzies?!?

Not exactly the Chinese way of long life, neh?

Besides, a true "Delta Force" of any type would combine technology and magic as a cohesive total strategy anyway. The surgical application of the correct type of force and a low operational footprint are the hallmarks of special operations forces, let alone "The best of the best" groups like Delta and Seal 6/NavSpecWarDevGru.


Read about what the Heavenherds are and then decide if Amazonia can go toe to toe with Azzie mages.
psychophipps
QUOTE (Cheops @ Jul 26 2008, 11:03 PM) *
Read about what the Heavenherds are and then decide if Amazonia can go toe to toe with Azzie mages.


I still call Aztechnology (what I thought they were talking about with "azzies", my bad) FTW. The reason is simple, really. It's called "better technological, logistical, intelligence, and fiscal support". With the whole of Aztechnology behind them, as the blood mages are a recognized part of the whole, there is no way in hell that the Heavenherd could pull out a true victory.
Not saying that the ol' horror-humping Amazonians wouldn't have to earn it the hard way and be hosed for quite a while afterwards, I'm just saying that the Azzies would eventually all get their souls sucked out and fed to something on the rather nasty side of the paranormal spectrum as sloppy seconds.
Sir_Psycho
If Aztechnology could just crush Amazonia, they'd have done it already.
Cheops
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Jul 27 2008, 08:49 AM) *
If Aztechnology could just crush Amazonia, they'd have done it already.


Agreed.
Chrysalis
There is quite a few factors involved in training. We can always go with terror and counter-terror training. If you are not interested in legal or ethical ramifications of what to teach. Then you have all sorts of possibilities with alternative methods. It depends on what you want to teach.

I feel that magic is just another tinker toy. A suicide bomber with magic is no different than a suicide bomber with a C4 and nail vest. It just passes most counter measures better.
Sir_Psycho
An awakened suicide bomber would be a terrible waste.
Chrysalis
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Jul 27 2008, 07:10 PM) *
An awakened suicide bomber would be a terrible waste.


So is a twelve year old kid with a grenade but that is one of the unpleasant things in life.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Chrysalis @ Jul 27 2008, 11:15 AM) *
So is a twelve year old kid with a grenade but that is one of the unpleasant things in life.


Grenades are cheap. Kids are cheaper. Skilled magicians are damned expensive.

Giving a bomb vest to an untrained 12-year-old makes logistical sense 90% of the time. Sending a magician on a similar mission makes logistical sense practically never. They're sufficiently rare and sufficiently useful in other capacities that sending them off to die really is a waste.

Chrysalis
The more expensive the suicidal killer to train the more important the mark. A head of state is a logical example.

"A highly trained magician" is an interesting choice of words. The importance of the individual is dependent on the value placed on them. Most intelligence operatives are only cogs in the machinery.
Pendaric
Special forces to sending children to die. DS is, if anything, unpredictable.

The balkanization of nations and increase of corporate power has lead to more spec forces. The inclusion of former freedom fighters (after all they won) the Soux Wild Cats, being the best spec op's, seems to point to magical assests still being intergrated else where.
VagabondStar
QUOTE (AngelisStorm @ Jul 27 2008, 05:54 AM) *
@ Vagabond: But they are super killing machines. When they are able to do what they are trained to do. Take 300 Navy Seals and tell them to hold a air field... not a good day, as history shows.



Not arguing the point - but I believe there was an old SEAL saying that went something like "We're not really that good at what we do... everyone else is just THAT BAD."
AngelisStorm
Great quote. smile.gif
Backgammon
That is actually a great point. I was watching some of those special ops show on the Military Channel, and one of them was the (unwilling) extraction of this Balkans dude so he could be put up at a war tribunal.

In the end, the spec ops guys, all dressed as civies, had to infiltrate the hospital where the mark was working (as director or whatever the fuck). So to bypass the bodyguards in the lobby, they posed as delivery guys delivering vaccines, go through the door, then fucking walked into the dude's office, chlorophormed him, sat his unconscious ass in a wheelchair and wheeled him out like he was a patient.

That is the most cartoonish retarded plan I ever heard of. But it worked perfectly, cause the opposition is just never that good. The guards were a little suspicious that 4 large men were delivering vaccines, but they let it slide. And then no one stopped them from wheeling the dude out.
psychophipps
QUOTE (Chrysalis @ Jul 27 2008, 08:36 AM) *
The more expensive the suicidal killer to train the more important the mark. A head of state is a logical example.

"A highly trained magician" is an interesting choice of words. The importance of the individual is dependent on the value placed on them. Most intelligence operatives are only cogs in the machinery.


The problem here is that you simply don't see highly trained (a la special operations) and motivated suicide bombers. This is why the POTUS is still alive, after all. Everyone, the Secret Service included, freely admits that a highly trained and motivated suicidal assassin could probably take care of biz in this regard. The rub, however, lies in the fact such individuals basically don't exist.
This why your typical suicide bomber isn't a happy family man with a good career in a financially stable location. You need to convince your suicide bomber that they have nothing to live for, that their death is more important than their life, and that their sacrifice will mean something to someone or a group of people that will remember them. Needless to say, Spec ops-types don't share these traits as free thinkers, generally having a strong entrepreneurial attitude, usually rather willful, and loving their jobs and the sense of camaraderie that it instills.
VagabondStar
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Jul 28 2008, 02:22 AM) *
This why your typical suicide bomber isn't a happy family man with a good career in a financially stable location.


Never say never. Remember that doctor in the UK a year or two ago?
hyzmarca
Actually, with the advances is radio control and robotics technology it is possible to build a suicide bomber in your garage. Hell, you can learn everything you need to know to blow up the President and survive get away with it from watching Mythbusters.


Drones make suicide bombers obsolete.



Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jul 27 2008, 11:23 PM) *
Drones make suicide bombers obsolete.


Obsolete besides for the extra "fuck you" value that is derived by demonstrating to the target(s) that you think nothing of personally self destructing to get at them.
VagabondStar
Cortex bombs present some pretty nasty potential for high-profile targets. The potential for massive death-dealing at the cost of one's own life is nearly limitless in the sixth world. I agree that a magician suicide bomber is a waste of potential... but using a mind control spell, a masked magic item, or some other nasty set up has potential at a lesser cost.

But back to SF in the 6th.

Long range reconnaissance can be achieved with ease using astral projection - but do you think an astral form would be able to call in an air strike?
kzt
Sure. You have telepathic communication with your bound spirit. Which is working the radio back at Hq.
Cthulhudreams
Sponsoring an insurgency in any country just requires some voluteers and a C130 cargo drop. You put in some medical drones, and then crates and crates of medical supplies and skillwires.

Bam. Instant army. Its actually super in cool in that once perp 1 and 2 recover, they can do the operation on guy 3. Quite a bad ass army too as you break out the rating 6 skillwires and R4 active softs and go to town. You don't even need people. Plus you just put your own 'be nice to me' stuff in the 'softs. Then distribute programs, agents and some guns. Tada.

Ultimately though, it depends on what you think warfare is like.
VagabondStar
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Jul 29 2008, 05:51 AM) *
Sponsoring an insurgency in any country just requires some voluteers and a C130 cargo drop. You put in some medical drones, and then crates and crates of medical supplies and skillwires.

Bam. Instant army. Its actually super in cool in that once perp 1 and 2 recover, they can do the operation on guy 3. Quite a bad ass army too as you break out the rating 6 skillwires and R4 active softs and go to town. You don't even need people. Plus you just put your own 'be nice to me' stuff in the 'softs. Then distribute programs, agents and some guns. Tada.

Ultimately though, it depends on what you think warfare is like.



Something like this would probably be very difficult to sell. An insurgency has to be supported by the local population to succeed for any length of time.
Sir_Psycho
Those things are hardly mutually exclusive. You find the most charismatic leader who's profile fits an insurgency leader and you bankroll him and donate technology to support his followers. He doesn't even have to know that he's under your control, and even if he does, he can pretsent to his followers that it's the greater power that is beholden to him (whether he's pretending or not). With psychotropic conditioning, the followers don't even know that they belong to you and not him.

It'd be just like today's Al Quaeda, except they can't turn on you years later with the weapons and training you've given them, because they've been conditioned against it. And you wouldn't even need the skillwires, as they can just learn in VR training from tutorsofts. They'd be harder to find, too, because they'd never need to fire their guns until they actually stage the operations. And the internal IFF you put in their smartguns means that even if they some-how reverse the psychotropic conditioning, then they have to find some-one else to bankroll them for new equipment.
Flatliner
How much of the direct action needs would Shadowrunners or mercs fulfill?

Would Shadowrunners or mercs be used for special reconnaissance?
Kliko
Special Recce and Shock Troops/ Super Troopers.
Shiloh
QUOTE (Flatliner @ Jul 30 2008, 07:56 AM) *
How much of the direct action needs would Shadowrunners or mercs fulfill?

Would Shadowrunners or mercs be used for special reconnaissance?

Anything that benefits from skills over 4 or taskings that need more than 12 skill point ratings... or serious dice pools only reachable by specialist training and extensive augmentation. Magic.
VagabondStar
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Jul 30 2008, 07:03 AM) *
Those things are hardly mutually exclusive. You find the most charismatic leader who's profile fits an insurgency leader and you bankroll him and donate technology to support his followers. He doesn't even have to know that he's under your control, and even if he does, he can pretsent to his followers that it's the greater power that is beholden to him (whether he's pretending or not). With psychotropic conditioning, the followers don't even know that they belong to you and not him.

It'd be just like today's Al Quaeda, except they can't turn on you years later with the weapons and training you've given them, because they've been conditioned against it. And you wouldn't even need the skillwires, as they can just learn in VR training from tutorsofts. They'd be harder to find, too, because they'd never need to fire their guns until they actually stage the operations. And the internal IFF you put in their smartguns means that even if they some-how reverse the psychotropic conditioning, then they have to find some-one else to bankroll them for new equipment.



Sounds expensive. I like it.
martindv
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Jul 30 2008, 02:03 AM) *
It'd be just like today's Al Quaeda, except they can't turn on you years later with the weapons and training you've given them, because they've been conditioned against it.

There is nothing that cannot be done. And by relying on technology and SR4 rules, it is almost assured that this will in fact come back to bite them in the ass. Perhaps not organically, but then again how many truly grassroots/underground movements are there or have there ever been in SR without some power player sticking their nose into it? As I recall, the answer is almost if not indistinguishable from zero.
VagabondStar
The next real question concerning SF in Shadowrun is how many unconventional operations would be government backed?

It seems like the potential for Corporations to crowd into the small wars market in order to open up new markets in previously restricted locales is pretty strong.

Look at what happened in Haiti, for instance, during the banana wars - while the troops were government - the interests were very strongly of corporate influence.
VagabondStar
And as far as Al Qaeda goes... are you thinking more in line with The Taliban? They were supported by the CIA in the 80s. But AQ and Taliban are not the same thing.
Sir_Psycho
QUOTE (VagabondStar @ Jul 30 2008, 07:03 PM) *
And as far as Al Qaeda goes... are you thinking more in line with The Taliban? They were supported by the CIA in the 80s. But AQ and Taliban are not the same thing.

My bad, mixed up. Continue as normal.

QUOTE (Vagabondstar)
Sounds expensive. I like it.

Expensive? Really? All you need is a range of cracked tutorsofts for them to knuckle down with, and some commlinks with sim modules. They live in their mountain cave for a few months, eating, praying, listening to sermons about how some guy really wants them to kill themselves in his name, because then after they die they will go to a better place, and then they hit the simulations for a few hours, all revved up.

The guns are more expensive, but not by much, and not by any corporate or government budget. You just hit a bazaar in Damascus or Constantinople or wherever and buy a dozen crates of AK-97s. Then you go and find some gunsmithing children (or drones, but child labour is so much more fun) that can put internal smartlinks into all of those guns. Then you pick them up and drop them on your new "friends".
QUOTE (MartinDV)
There is nothing that cannot be done. And by relying on technology and SR4 rules, it is almost assured that this will in fact come back to bite them in the ass. Perhaps not organically, but then again how many truly grassroots/underground movements are there or have there ever been in SR without some power player sticking their nose into it? As I recall, the answer is almost if not indistinguishable from zero.

Can you suggest some examples of those technology and rules and how and why it will not work? At least work better than the insurgency training used in the 20th century? I'm sure you have a point, but without an example, I don't see it being "almost assured".
VagabondStar
The big thing about insurgency is that it cannot afford to hide in mountain caves praying. If they are not out propagandizing and winning hearts and minds, the government forces will. If the insurgents cannot hide with at least the passive support of MOST of the population in an area, they will be found out, and hunted down.

Skillsofts and medical drones will not matter when jetfighters start to strafe your position, and gunships begin firing rockets.


And then there is the issue of deniability.


Expensive because when you look at what the CIA did with the taliban, the cost of supplying wwii era enfields (which on average have a 400-500 meter range advantage on a kalashnikov) and stinger missiles compared to what it cost to mobilize, supply, billet, and provide service to occupying forces and puppet government forces for the soviet union in Afghanistan....

well...

you may see my point to some extent.

But I guess deniability is the biggest issue with skillsofts and drones.

But hey - in your game you make the rules. spin.gif
Sir_Psycho
Personally I don't think deniability is a problem. You wouldn't use your own equipment. Like in the example I gave of picking up a dozen crates of Ak-97s in Damascus, they're unlikely to be traced back to you. Also, because what you're doing is illegal anyway, you don't need to respect copyright law, either. So you can buy say, 12 softs that can be distributed between hundreds and even thousands of militants. And again, by using tutorsofts you don't have to cybernetically enhance them.

I'm not familiar with the operations of the Soviets in Afghanistan, can you elaborate?

Actually, that's interesting what you say about the mountain caves. By cutting skillwires out of the equation, you don't need a centralized area for these operatives to be to get wired. You just set up a secure VPN for the militants and some matrix drop boxes and they don't need to live in a cave with you, because they use simulations for training, and work out - you can't nail them while they train, because they're doing it in their heads. And when it comes time for the operation they go pick up their AK's and body armour and move out.
VagabondStar
Soviets in Afghanistan:

The soviet union had had its fingers in afghanistan for a long time. In the late 1970s they began making incursions into afghan territory to assist the mostly pro-soviet government quell uprisings from local insurgents. These insurgents would eventually become the Taliban.

The CIA supported the Taliban while the Soviets began pouring troops and equipment into Afghanistan believing that a show of military force would sufficiently intimidate the guerrillas into surrendering the fight.

Oddly enough, it did not.

What the soviets DID manage to do was destroy any semblance of legitimacy they had previously presented to the international arena in a brutal series of search and destroy campaigns to wipe out Mujahideen fighters. They also managed to alienate themselves from the majority of the afghan population.


The CIA supported the Mujahideen and Taliban fighters by supplying british einfields, chinese kalashnikovs, and other weaponry. The heaviest thing they supplied were stinger missiles to counter Soviet Helicopters, which were able to outmaneuver RPGs. Those were the only item given that could not be easily denied. Luckily the soviets never captured any.

Unluckily, there are several unused stingers still floating around the region.

And then: John Rambo appeared on the scene, and single handedly ejected the soviet forces in a glorious series of shootouts culminating in a jousting match between a t-72 tank and a kasatka helicopter.

Sufficed to say,

it rocked hard.

Two Books to read:

The Bear went over the Mountain (Now called "Afghan Guerilla War") which is available free online.

and Ghost Wars - which probably is not, but libraries are wonderful places.


kzt
QUOTE (VagabondStar @ Jul 30 2008, 06:03 PM) *
And as far as Al Qaeda goes... are you thinking more in line with The Taliban? They were supported by the CIA in the 80s. But AQ and Taliban are not the same thing.

The Taliban didn't exist until the 90s, after the USSR was kicked out of Afghanistan. They were a grass-roots response to the excesses of the victorious mujahedeen (and other) warlords, then heavily supported (as in being lent regular infantry battalions) by Pakistan until they controlled most of the Afghanistan. This was well after the US stopped supporting anyone in Afghanistan.
VagabondStar
QUOTE (kzt @ Jul 31 2008, 04:53 AM) *
The Taliban didn't exist until the 90s, after the USSR was kicked out of Afghanistan. They were a grass-roots response to the excesses of the victorious mujahedeen (and other) warlords, then heavily supported (as in being lent regular infantry battalions) by Pakistan until they controlled most of the Afghanistan. This was well after the US stopped supporting anyone in Afghanistan.



Kind of debatable. The Taliban Government didn't exist until after the soviets left, but that doesn't mean that the Taliban (and various groups of people who were eventually folded into the Taliban) didn't already exist.

But you make a good point. One should be careful with their labels.
Cthulhudreams
When I made my previous comment, I'm assuming that there is an insurgency that you then 'sponsor' - ie the population was already P.Oed your just giving them better fighting bling.

As for denibility... you then go one to quote the CIA giving the afgans stinger missles. EVERYONE knows that it was the US. why the hell do I need to be deniable again?

In SR, everyone knows that the corps regularly send professional criminals after each other. They make TV shows about it.
Chrysalis
The stingers use a liquid nitrogen battery to cool the infrareed sensor. They have a shelf life of six months.

I still think that supporting terrorism went out of style like fuzzy dice and the Atari back in the 80s. Very little reason for a government to maintain force which is expensive, clandestine, and revealing it opens up a whole nest of uncomfortable problems.

-Chrysalis
Flatliner
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Jul 30 2008, 10:23 PM) *
In SR, everyone knows that the corps regularly send professional criminals after each other. They make TV shows about it.

Everyone knows it happens, but it's deniable at least for the purposes of the setting. No one can prove anything.

Looking at things "realistically," it wouldn't be impossible for a megacorp to link a captured 'runner back through the chain to the other AAA that hired the team, but for the purposes of the game setting the semi-anonymous NPC offering the job breaks the chain.

If a megacorp could prove another was kidnapping researchers, sabotaging reactors, and stealing data the Court would have to come down on it. Governments are in a similar situation.

Govn't-A may really want to interfere with Govn't-B, but may not want to deal with the various consequences of going to war. G-A needs to be able to...deny involvement in G-B's affairs and misfortunes.
VagabondStar
QUOTE (Chrysalis @ Jul 31 2008, 08:48 AM) *
The stingers use a liquid nitrogen battery to cool the infrareed sensor. They have a shelf life of six months.


I learned something.
kzt
It's actually more complex than that. Jane's says it has "an argon gas Battery Coolant Unit (BCU) (which consists of the squib activated argon gas coolant unit and electrical generating chemical battery)." There are supposed to by three packaged with each missile round. Each round is a sealed unit with a fairly long lifetime. The lifetime has long expired for the ones given to the Muj.
VagabondStar
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Jul 31 2008, 05:23 AM) *
As for denibility... you then go one to quote the CIA giving the afgans stinger missles. EVERYONE knows that it was the US. why the hell do I need to be deniable again?



The stingers were a big deal because they were so hard to deny. As a result, the CIA did not hand out that many of them... in a relative sense. The assumptions made by the officers who Ok'd the Stingers were that the Muj would stay in the mountains and use them to defend against helicopters. For the most part, that is what happened. In that kind of scenario, the chances of the soviets recovering a launcher was slim to none - by their reckoning.


If you don't think deniability is important in this kind of operation, that's fine. Again - your game is your game. I can't change what other people did in the real world - but the CIA had express instructions to remain covert and to not show America's hand in the aid of the Mujahideen. Did that mean that everyone basically knew it was happening? Sure. But no one could prove it.

All risks taken in regard to the covert nature of the program were weighed against the likelihood of discovery vs. the benefit to the insurgency. In the case of the stingers, they decided to put the big rubber approved stamp on it.

VagabondStar
QUOTE (kzt @ Jul 31 2008, 10:05 PM) *
It's actually more complex than that. Jane's says it has "an argon gas Battery Coolant Unit (BCU) (which consists of the squib activated argon gas coolant unit and electrical generating chemical battery)." There are supposed to by three packaged with each missile round. Each round is a sealed unit with a fairly long lifetime. The lifetime has long expired for the ones given to the Muj.


I bow to your superior esoteric knowledge.
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