Bringing something back-

Is there any canon information from any edition mentioning the balance of military vs. private (shadowrunners/mercs) special operations? ...not that it'd make any sense, but I'm curious about the developers' thoughts for the setting.

I'm guessing that governments would use 'runners and mercs all the time, but at what point is an operation too sensitive to use contractors? Is there anything that you can't trust a contractor with?

If you place cortex bombs on your contractors and have a 'cleaner' squad ready, then nope, you can probably 'trust' them.

This is a bit outside of the normal 'runner workflow, but it might be done for say, company-man-NSA-ninjas. Not so much because they can't trust them, but because as members of an organization, the operators trust the organization knows they have nothing to hide-

Which reminds me of Snow Crash, where the federal employees had to sit through frequent and extremely invasive loyalty tests, even though the only people who put up with it were the ones who had nothing to hide from their employers... so in a sense, the methods worked, just not ideally.

..which brings me to wonder: would western governments be too demanding on the security of their operations and the loyalty of their operators? I figure developing nations would take what they can get, but the UCAS might want assurances that regular 'runners wouldn't be willing to give, being free spirits, in the colloquial sense.

Hmm... interesting. I will have to ask around and dig up the specifications when I am at work next month.

Are there any feared and respected ninja teams for hire in the SR world?

Anyone watch Charlie Wilson's War? it was about the whole Afgan stinger thing.

I am just waiting for the chorus of forehead slaps when the terrorist community announces they have been running their Stinger launchers with auto A/C freon for years...

Though I imagine they have more SA-7/14/etc than Stingers anyway.

I dunno how accurate this is, since I don't have any personal experience with it. But its seemed to me that (fiction-aside), that the main differences between special forces and 'regular forces' was a partial training thing (but not so much) and more of a mindset thing.

You pick people with the moral flexibility but also firm belief that allows them to do things we as normal people would find inhuman/superhuman. The guys who are hardwired in some way to be creative killers, but also guys who go "I need to jump on that grenade to save my buddies" whereas for us normal people our first impulse would likely be self preservation.

I kinda see it is a chicken or egg first kinda thing. Are they specforces cause they're trained, or are they specforces cause through training you find the ones predisposed to it?

Both. Special forces are what they are, because they are... special. No really, I'm not being a smart ass. They do things that are outside the normal range for soldiers. If a goverment does not have special forces, then Joe's squad over there gets picked to do the hard stuff. But if they do it often enough without dieing, you get the idea that perhaps you should save Joe, for special jobs... (so that he and his posse don't get gunned down charging a trench)

My 2c. Not everyone has what it takes to make it through basic boot camp. This is a mindset thing, and a physical thing. Special forces are the same difference. You find the people who are physicall inclined to be able to do extrodinary things (like Navy Seals and their crazy ability to hold their breath), and then you give them training to be able to do it better. Not everyone has the aptitude to hit targets at really long range, but talent only takes you so far. So you find those with the talent, and you train it.

Besides that, it's like ninjas. You pick your fights, and make sure you win. Then everyone gets really scared of you, which makes them less effective against you. Rinse and repeat.

It was a really big deal when the US decided to have special forces. For a long time we didn't have any, because we didn't want to belittle our normal soldiers by having "special" (and thus "better") ones. It was a US mindset thing; all men are created equal, etc etc. Our normal boys are good enough, so why try to make "special" ones.

Good point. I've read the number one thing that sets a "Navy Seal" a part from any other Special Forces grade serviceman is the ability to resist hypothermia. Hellweek is 132 hours of continuous physical labor and mental fatigue with a grand total of less than four hours of sleep during it. Only 25% off the Navy Seal candidates pass Hellweek making it one of the toughest special forces training course ever.

For the Navy Seal the ability to function in freezing cold water no matter how tired or exhausted is mission critical and not everyone can physically handle it.

Skillwires are useful, but I don't think they can be really cost effective unless it is a serious rush job (in which case hiring contractors would likely make more sense).

First unless they were really cutting edge then they are only going to be rating 2 or 3. And if they are cutting edge then they are hardly deniable.

You can train some one to level 3 and add a specialization and be ahead of the curve and able to use Edge.

Certainly you could do wonders with VR combat training. Easy to drop in and doesn't leave any thing to trace unless their base is captured. Also easy to clean up in an emergency.

But having a few members of your insurgents with skill wires is a great way to have an instant non com cadre to train the others.
No to mention the advantage of being able to drop skills in to certain team members before a mission. Most special forces are crossed trained and skill wires would allow you to have the same advantage with your insurgents.



For that matter I'd really expect every special forces team to have several members with skills wires. It would be way to useful to not have it.

Lose your pilot then drop a Pilot skill soft in to your skill wire team member. Need the driver to be able to pass as a local... Slot in a few active and knowledge softs.

Especially when they might be cutting edge enough to push the rating 4 barrier on active skill softs.

2008.

The main thing that BUDS tests is the ability to not give up, no matter what. It's designed to make it really easy to walk away and really hard to continue. That and how physically tough you are. Tough not in how many pushups can you do, but tough in that you don't get seriously sick, break a bone or otherwise become physically incapable of continuing no matter how motivated you are.

This is also the case in other SOCOM units, but not in the same way. A friend told me about his arrival at Ranger training. Everyone got got off the bus, formed up into a unit and told to run a multi-mile course, with the cadre all the time yelling at them that they needed to run faster. At the end a lot of the soldiers were barfing and staggering around. The cadre chief walked forward, told them "You disgust me. That time was atrocious. Everybody fall back in and you are going to do it again, and this time you better do it faster."

Some people just gave up, but he formed them up and they started staggering back down the course. They got stopped about 300 yards down the course, everyone who was still moving forward passed, everyone who stopped or didn't try got put back on the bus.

One point to add.

In 2070, conventional units are probably closer to our current interpretation of Special Forces then we would think. Afghanistan is already pushing U.S. force structure towards smaller, autonomous units with decision-making pushed as far down the tree as realistically possible. The advent of tacnets, widely available satellite communications, and essentially "rangeless" magical communication are only going to strengthen that trend. As Shadowrunners, there's also less organizations of relevance that actually would want a conventional force. Accordingly, you've got three kinds of forces; security services, paramilitaries, and special operations groups.

Security services are going to be organized a lot like a police force. They guard corporate extraterritorial property, and generally behave a lot like cops; deterrence over inhibition, extremely conservative force escalation, and a focus on a secure environment - surveillance, drones, and some magical defenses.

Paramilitary units are built to stop a threat in progress, or bolster static security services for specific events or conditions. They're a lot like a SWAT unit, and are threat-based; they can supplement their deployable units with technical / matrix / magical support as necessary. They have a much higher force ceiling then security services, but have a pretty minimal capability to work for a long period out of support or supply.

Special operations groups are going to be the units of measure when big groups try to really get over on each other. They are going to be supremely well-funded and supplied, will have access to any kind of support they need, and are extremely well-trained. These are the groups that go in when the matter is too sensitive for runners, so their success must be almost assured.

Good break down, but I think the special forces category needs to be broke down further.

Most special forces are designed to be used against military targets.

Then you have your spook/black Op special forces designed for "Interventions" likely a mix of military and intelligence assets .

And finally you have your best of the best special forces designed to be used in situations where it is fate of the nation/Corp at stake.

Teams like the Ares Fire Watch where it is the CEO of the company that is signing on on their deployment.

You have to think that when the best of the best come out (Be they corporate or national forces), they are going to have every force multiplier that can be provided. Specially since usually there will be no backup available (because it will all be over before the backup can arrive).

And if no backup is available then and you are already spending millions to train and equipment a special forces team, then it way stupid not to provide them with the best of the best because you can never know when that extra bit of gear might not make the difference between success and failure.

And when you start talking delta grade ware, it starts to get really scary. Course the the stakes have to be high enough to bring them out and they have to get in place.

I think that the main reason for using them over runners besides them being more trustworthy is that they will have a lot more firepower than any runner team can provide (Milspec grade software, Tactical AIs, Borgs, delta grade cyberware, initiates with double digit foci, and so on).

For a runner, when these boys and girls hit the the field then you know the drek has really hit the rotatory cooler and the stake are way too high and way to visible. Course by the time you know they are in the game a lot of people are going to be dead.

I figure the best way a GM can use them that won't end up with a lot of dead players, is to either to chase a team with a force they can not win against or to put the free of the creator in them as the runners ran a cross their handy work. Especially good if they can take out another force also after the same objective.