He did, he said the final draft went in at 85, and now the price is 250, which is a 294% edit as outlined in my ninja edit.

I can only assume this is the rarity pricing being discussed in action - as free spirits are rare.

So, help please? we have no clue, and niether does Aaron.

I honestly couldn't tell you for sure about that one. The cost might reflect a spirit's inherent abilities as opposed to rarity, but I didn't make the call on that one.

I´d pay those 65 BP, should the rest of the group ever permit it. As it stands, I can be grateful for the high cost - I´d have a snowballs chance in hell with a "balanced" price.

In my opinion, there should be no "Distinctive Style" for anything in the Matrix. Any script kiddie (or experienced hacker wanting to frame someone else &/or lay low) could copy the icons and use them for themselves. Distinctive Style is a flaw, not a merit, and in the Matrix, "Distinctive Style" is a merit as every poser wants to look like you.



Yes, but Catalyst arbitrarily added points to a meta-type to reflect a fluff concept. There is no "balance" at all for making one meta-type more expensive to reflex rarity.



There is a BIG difference in having a ghoul and a Dragon. Ghoul can be shot in the face with a assault rifle and killed. A dragon... better bring the Assault Cannons AND Rocket Launchers.




Yes, that's true, but to "screw over" one meta variant because they're suppose to be rare is just... poorly written. Shadowrunners are by definition rare/crazy.

How is this any different than Catalyst "arbitrarily" deciding that an Adept is worth 5 BP while a full mage is 15?

Note that Aaron specifically noted that changes might have resulted from playtesting and developer decisions after he handed the draft in. This was in fact the case. What wasn't mentioned was that Aaron's initial 85 BP cost allowed for a Force 1 Free Spirit with a starting rating of 1 in 10 different stats. There were several changes after Aaron handed in the draft that fundamentally inflated price - rarity was a pretty minor consideration. See my answers in the appropriate thread.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...st&p=708814 for those interested

I'd still love to see a playable 400 BP character free spirit that doesn't look totally piss poor next to a possession tradition mage.

Synner has also failed to mention some sigificiant disadvantages, like if you go near a rating 4 BC you pretty much instantly become useless and at R5 you just die.

Mana static makes you a complete failure.

You cannot interact with the matrix.. at all.

You cannot even read street signs as far as I can see as you have no natural sensory organs. Can you?

Some serious practical problems right there.

Emphasis mine. Come on now, you know better, Bobby. Don't let the arguments get to you, and try not to insult other people.

That goes for everyone here. It's JUST A GAME. And it's a set of Optional Rules for said game. Calm down, play nice, and try to post more rationally.

Because an adept has powers that they don't have to roll successes for. Their Improved Reflexes gives them wired reflexes any time they want it. A mage has to roll successes and then sustain that spell (with penalty) or use a Spell Lock. If there is a background count or wards then they're screwed as the Spell Lock dumps the spell. The adept goes through the ward (if he can) and his Improved reflexes power still works. This is the same thing with almost all of their powers. They just work... no rolling for net hits, no variable levels of power... nice reliable constant powers.

The Mage is worth 15 (IMO) because while he has great power, he's slow and squishy compared to a sammy or an adept. Most likely before he can cast his first spell he's being hit with a few rounds from the Sammy's assault rifle or is being chopped up with the Sammy's katana (for chic 'Runners). Honestly, Mages are strong, but never underestimate a man with 3 feet of carbon steel, augmentation that makes him stronger and faster, and is willing to gut you for fun and profit.

I don't mean to aim this at anyone but honestly there are periods of near homicidal rage on game forums that I just don't understand. I mean were all passionate about this game or we wouldn't be stalking Dumpshock a 100 times a day. Most of us are buying a product and using it. If were not happy with it we don't have to use it, matter of fact many rewrite whole cloth sections of said product. Does this make them "right", well certainly in there minds yes. I guess the bottom line is this game is something we all have in common. Whether for or against the current edition I think we can all agree were shadowrun fans and we all have "our" games best interest at heart.

Sorry for this stream of off kilter rant but honestly there are like a half dozen topics that have really strayed from there start with nothing constructive coming of it lately. I understand the passion behind it, I'm here too. (And yes I understand this is normal behavior for DS.)

" You can please all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time, but you'll never please all of the people all of the time! "

I wish more folks thought like you, and while yes, it is normal behavior, I'll do my damndest to stamp it out. Passion is good, it creates, it broadens, it enriches. Blind passion brings nothing but misery and destruction.

And now, back on topic, you lot!

So metavariants gets pricier as they get rarer, right? So, this means that, point cost wise, "pure" humans should be rarer than Orks, Trolls, etc? In the point cost breakdown it's actually better to be an ork than a human, as they attributes alone should cost more than they racial cost and they still got night vision and stuff.

You're wrong, the problem is all those people like you (I'm not aiming that at anyone in particular, just to everyone but me on DSF) who are wrong and play the game wrong.

Pure humans are the most common metatype on the planet. They represent somewhere between 60 and 70% of the entire global population. They aren't "rare" by any measure.

When we're talking about rarity here, we're talking rarity and prevalence of a specific racial expression with regards to other racial expressions and with regards to their purely mechanical point balance. When introducing a race or metavariant the rarity of that expression on a global scale was one of several non-mechanical modifiers considered in adjusting the final BP cost after calculating the race/metavariants purely mechanical value - and not as some have suggested a purely arbitrary choice.

Orks are cheaper than they should be from a purely mechanical standpoint (and have been since the corebook came out) because they are comparatively more common than the other metatypes (they're now the second most common metatype after baseline humans) and growing in number—furthermore they are more common in the shadows. In the game the lower cost for orks (compared to their basic abilities and racial attribute minimums) is attributed to how common orks are becoming and is not offset by any mechanical modifiers (but rather a series of intangible ones that may actually vary considerably from table to table).

Maybe you'd like to try building a possession tradition magician and I'll build a free spirit and we can run them through a series of "typical" challenges.


Disregarding for the moment just how rare rating 4 BC domains are, and the fact that a spirit is dual natured and can actually see that kind of domain coming... A free spirit that is somehow forced to approach such an area can just escape to the metaplanes as soon as it gets uncomfortable.

You're also conveniently forgetting that an appropriately aspected domain might actually give the free spirit a boost to all his magical abilities.


Unless, of course, you remain outside its area of effect, escape to the metaplanes with your extra IP, use Counterspelling to reduce the effect. Mana Static is indeed powerful, but no more so than a well-aimed mana bolt or a powerbolt. (On a sidenote, Mana Static is up for errata and while the mechanics will remain the same the effect will not be an instant mana spike).


Not entirely true. Not percieving and not interacting are two different things.


As far as Runner's Companion goes spirits only possess limitations in seeing and understanding purely electronic imagery and reproductions. There has been no errata anywhere saying that a spirit's senses are incompatible with normal senses, in fact Runner's Companion clarifies that dual natured beings perception combines physical and astral senses, rather than having to shift between one or the other.

This is another instance where were we developing SR4 today, I would have addressed the rules differently—as I have pointed out elsewhere on these boards. However, as things stand, internal consistency and streamlining is the overriding principle in SR4. So as a rule of thumb all spirits possess all the senses their original conjurer did (possibly a side effect of the conjurer imparting specific physical forms. Wild/spontaneous spirits should have at least the five basic "human" senses.


As may be obvious, these "problems" were considered.

Wait....


So I CAN'T play a Storm Dolphin with Kid Stealth Legs?

Not yet, wait for SOTA 2072.

Shadowrun Game Mechanics and Genre/Setting are tied together. This is the game designer choice. Thus you get BP costs including "fluff" considerations.

If you want pure BP systems, look at GURPS or Champions/HERO System rules. Those systems are designed to separate Build point from Genre. In those systems the value of BP are equally useful.

There's no reason you cannot play SR setting with a GURPS or HERO system mechanic and ruleset.

But I play SR ruleset because it does a relative decent job in the ruleset of encouraging and integrating genre elements into the core mechanics of character development and play. Over many games with many groups of players, orks are the most common metatype chosen. There are other examples of game design decisions that encourage and support the players building along Genre lines.

It's a basic design decision when creating a game whether to build the ruleset a certain way. Take a look at Deadlands, a wild west horror games, and the core mechanics use dice, poker cards, and chips, all in ways to support the genre and feel of a game where's life is a gamble, and eventually your going to run out of chips and lose. Castle Falkenstein, which uses a standard card deck, to support the concept that the PC has a few cards to play, but otherwise you're relying on your core set of skills to play the Story. 7 Seas has it's Drama Dice mechanic to encourage cinematic descriptive play. And many more other examples.

Those were choices made by those game designers, and none of them are wrong. Just different. And they are all fun for me.

If it's really important people can always houserule it to raise or lower points costs depending on how good a race is considered.

And really people shouldn't be even looking into how cost effective things are. If you want to play an uncommon race have it be because of the roleplay aspect, rather than what combination of attribute boosts and qualities you'll get.

Conjecture! The dragons published were never meant for play, and thus the only attempt at balance made was in the effort to fool us even more.

Bad Horse
(Bad Horse)
Bad Horse
(Bad Horse)
He rides across the nation
The thoroughbred of sin
He got the application
that you just sent in
It needs evaluation
So let the games begin
A heinous crime
A show of force
A murder would be nice of course
Bad Horse
(Bad Horse)
Bad Horse
(He's bad)
The evil league of evil
Is watching so beware
The grade that you receive
will be your last we swear
So make the bad horse gleeful
Or he'll make you his mare
He's saddled up
There's no recourse
It's hi ho silver
signed Bad Horse

...the Thoroughbred of Sin?

Heh, awesome Give yourself one Karma Point

Besides the fact that i'm absolutely NOT going to play a character who fails pathetically at what i want him to do (which means that yes, i'm going to minmax my characters before method acting and storytelling the hell out of them), i don't get the whole "roleplaying aspect" for metavariants.
They are basically nothing more than a funny looking human subspecies, usually from a certain cultural background.

Why should there, RP-wise, be any difference whatsoever between a cyclops and a SURGEd troll from Greece?
As far as biology is concerned, both start with the completely same set of predetermined problems they're likely to run into (like, being damned huge guy who is looking freakish in a really uncommon way).
Any difference between the two characters will not boil down to the PCs race, but individual psychology.

The only difference is style, but i wouldn't dare to call "looks cooler" a "roleplay aspect".

So what's the point i'm missing here?

You're not really trying to tell us that "true roleplayers" stand above petty numbercrunching?

I meant Gandhi.

edit: It occurs to me that someone completely unfamiliar with the source material I'm quoting could find this offensive and/or inflammatory. Just trust me....it's not meant like that. Like, at all.

They should, therefore, become familiar. Right now.

http://www.drhorrible.com/

Bull

The difference is mostly in how others would have treated the character, what conditions they grew up with and a whole bunch of things which would make up their background. And it's one thing to be part of a minority group and another entirely to be the only one of your kind in the entire country/region/world (I suspect a troll catgirl in Greece would have a much harder time than a cyclops would). The cultural background also fits in too, it changes the sort of people they might know and how they'd act/react.

If you're wanting value for BP then none of the Metavariants are your 'best' choice as even the ones which give decent cost efficiency in terms of BP give the up to 30BP of flaw for use by the GM (standing out for a Shadowrunner is almost never a good thing when it comes to avoiding the heat). So really none of them are 'better' buys than the standard races, because you're bound to run into more trouble from the people you run against.

Well, in an ideal world they would. But that's going into the realm of rollplaying vs roleplaying which is getting off the topic.

Edit - So how long before rules for Horse Shifters find their way into house rules? Or even better a freeze ray for the next gear book!

That depends entirely on where the game is taking place. In the British Isles, Fomori are as common as baseline Trolls. While among those of Japanese descent, Oni are three times more common than regular Orks (so the Japanese Ork that is not an Oni is the one that stands out!).

How about Fomorians?

I mean... they sweat acid. How cool would that be?


and unhuggable.

They're in there, but we call 'em Fomóraig now to differntiate the Infected version from the metavariant. Of course, you could have a Fomóraig fomorian. F-squared.

Actually, you know the thing that confuses me most? 'Distinctive Style' is a flaw, a flaw meaning you are easily recognisable because you have a 'look' that very few individuals posess. So, by taking a disadvantage to your gameplay (witnesses peg you as the guy with the massive pink mohawk, a bright orange tracksuit and the hello-kitty assault rifle, rather than 'I guess he was kinda tall, brown hair, human'), you get more points to spend elsewhere to make up for that...

Yet, on the other hand, playing a 'rare' race - one that would make you more easily recognisable ('well officer, he had four legs for a start...') - costs more.

So, even discarding arguments about Oni in Japan, when I play a metavariant, I pay background points for a flaw.

Can anyone see what's wrong with that sentence?

Edit: Back to the Oni in Japan argument - why not just make the races cost what they should mechanically, and make a note that in areas where they are less common they should probably take some level of the 'distinctive style' flaw?

That means there are close to 60,000 awakened people in the Seattle Metroplex. (Runner Havens pop estimate)

According to Street Magic, "only a fraction" have the training to become mages. Let's say only 1 in 6... that's 10,000 trained mages in Seattle alone.

Given that they say mages are relatively rare inside corps, I'd say there are alot of mages on the street, even in this one city. Let's be generous and say the corps have sucked up 60% of our spell-slingers (that % is high, I'd say)...

That leaves 4000 magic users wanting gainful employment... let's pretend only half of these want to run the shadows (the other half want to open a magic shop or perform tricks for childern's birthday parties): that still leaves 2000 able-bodied mages for hire.

Are there 2000 legit Shadowrunning teams stationed in Seattle alone? I wouldn't think so...

Think of Shadowrunners as like a band-- a violent, non-musical band. The gigs are similar (night-time, somewhat infrequent, varied), the agents/fixers are similar, the eclectic personalities are similar.

The Seattle Post Intelligencer has a website called "SeattleNoise" that features listings of 692 bands (with bios). I'd hazard a guess that they are listing basically every band that semi-regularly plays at a coffee house or bar.

If we take the band/SR team analogy at face value, we have more than enough mages to have at least two per team! Mages aren't RARE! Seattle's awash in them!!!

I only point this out because the rarity comment, overall, is silly! We are Player Characters!!! We are the most outrageously equipped with RARE (and illegal) gear, we are the best crack shots (RARE skill), the best hackers (RARE skill), the best money-making criminals (RARE in general) in the 'plex!! Don't tell me about RARE! That's a balancing effect for NPCs!!! Player Characters re-define the term RARE

I disagree with most of your numbers, but this is very true. Yet another reason for fluff (aka "rarity") to have no influence on mechanical balance (aka "cost") for various species/metatypes/variants.

As implied by my previous post, yes. When I see 4 adepts being made in a four person group, the hammer comes down on that bs real fast - and yes this has happened. One or two, yeah no problem. An entire group of the same archetype/classification? No way, unless that is the idea of the campaign.



IMO, this is hybrid character. What I'm talking about above is dedicated characters. I couldn't give a rat's behind about hybrids, for the simple reason is that each is by default unique. But this is talking about archetypes, not races. Archetypes are broad concepts - a race you are regardless of what mods you slap on it.



Two words - house rules. If someone can't make them, then that someone shouldn't be GMing, pure and simple.

But seriously, what doors did RC close? Really? If anything IMO it opened too many doors. But that's fine, I've got padlocks to keep a lid on the albino banshee dryad population.

Edited by poster for redundancy

Why? Are you forgetting that people tend to seek out other similar people to themselves for work, play...everything? Im sure everyone here on dumpshock can provide all sorts of anecdotal evidence to support that.

The very fact that there is a Dumpshock is evidence that people tend to seek out other similar people to themselves. In fact, if he wants to bring the hammer down, he might as well bring on himself first. An entire group of the same archetype? Gee, look at that... an entire group of gamers.

I have in the past. I like playing magicians. I think they, and adepts, are the most interesting character type. Personal preference. But in past groups where there already were two magicians, or a magician and an adept even, I (as a player) have bit the bullet and played something else - hacker (yuck) in one case, vatjob in another - in order for the group to have that balance of function that others mentioned.

Regardless though, you both failed to notice an important caveat - "unless that is the idea of the campaign." If, when I say "no" the players respond with something like "but we wanna play a group of paranormal investigators (or a bunch of ninja out to avenge their master, or whatever)" that tells me that they want that type of campaign, and that they have a good reason for having 4 of whatever aside from juvenile powergamer number crunching bs. See?

Every group is different, so we cannot just assume that is exactly what you meant. Spelling it out for us now, it makes more sense.

I'm gonna say it. I didn't want to say it, but I'm gonna.

They cost more? Good.
Metavariants are dumb, and have always been dumb. Note that this is not hard fact, but just my personal opinion. I'd be one thing to make Japanese orks look like oni, and make Greek Trolls look like Cyclopes. I'd be fine with that. But giving them actual stat adjustments is where I start to get annoyed.
Once you start giving stat adjustments to races, I can't help but think, "Hey, this isn't the same race, this is a new and different race, because it has fundamentally different genetics!" It always made me think there oughta be stat-adjustment rules for like... The British, or Russians, or something, then.

But they're part of the game and have been forever, so I grudgingly don't purge them entirely from my games.

I agree with Adarael on this one. I've always been bothered by the fact that the Varients had different stat lines, even with a slightly increased cost. Because of both the cost increase, and the way several of the races were designed, you almost never saw an "off archetype" for that race. They played to certain strengths, and were often played for the minmaxing abilities more than anything else.

I like the IDEA of the varients. But I don;t like the idea of them being functionally different.

That's changed now, though, unless I'm misunderstanding p70-71 of RC. All metavariants get the same stats as the base metatype and it's the metagenetic qualities that they get for free that separate them from the base metatype.

You are most correct Sirrah.

WMS

I haven't read the books yet (Picking it up at Gen Con), so I was mostly going on the old method. I'd heard they were changed, but can't fairly judge the new stuff till I read it myself.

I think using the "fluff based" point values is mostly that it rewards powergaming. I get the feeling that thats the intention, though, so I guess it meets its goal.

Touche *bows*

Then you should bring it down on yourself when you are the GM. When your players are playing magicians, do not have any NPCs that are mages, especially if it is not the idea of the campaign and the only reason they have is juvenile powergamer number crunching bs. See?

So lemme try and understand what you're saying. In other words, because there are one or two PC mages there should then be no NPC mages in the entire world (or at least in the sphere of awareness of the PCs)?

Yeah, that's a valid analogy that makes logical sense Sorry, but unlike D&D 4th I am not of the opinion that the PCs should be set up as superstar gods with the entire world only existing to give them things to beat up on and make them out to be leet ubermensch. Players who want that may as well just play some diceless play by post rp and god mod their every action into a success. That don't cut it on my SR table, cause IMO verisimilitude to the setting is more important than catering to the whims of spoiled brats that want the world handed to them on a silver plate. That is the juvenile powergamer number crunching bs I refer to, as is playing a race purely because it gives a mechanical advantage like the pack of fomori we're talking about - any idiot can pick the options that give the biggest numbers in an effort to "win" the game.

However, since my sarcasm detector has indicated that you are no longer interested in discussion and would rather seem (though I could be wrong) to prefer to descend into the realm of fallacious analogy and vaguely insulting mimicry, I shall bid adieu to this thread.

If the races were costed properly, it wouldnt be a worry to have 4 Fomori at the table.

Thats why those of us who arent normally the GM just shake our heads at this silly fallacy that everything can be changed by anyone at the table anytime they like.

Some GM's are strict, and will enforce all sorts of rules, and houserules, and re-balance everything so it makes sense. Others won't, and don't care, and its a freeforall with crazy undercosted Fomori and Orks, and overcosted other stuff, for no reason any of us can see.

I guess to the guy who only GM's, and uses a banhammer to keep Fomori to 1 per 7 adventures, that 1 guy being ultra-leet is fine, but the rest of us exist too.

Fomori are not reall that undercosted. This is mostly because the arcane arrester quality is not very good.