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If the awakened represent one percent of the population, and magic is such an incredibly destabilizing factor... why would anyone with that power ever become a security guard?

Or a shadowrunner, for that matter?

You'd think that the incentive to join the establishment for a big signing bonus would secure the loyalty of nearly anyone. I mean, one can only live on the street for so long using his level 3 power focus as a pillow before the urge to come in from the cold becomes overpowering...

So what are our magically active characters' and npcs' motivations for remaining in their less than corporate optimized positions?
It makes no sense. Consider the application of the movement power to the transport industry. Why would anyone work as a security guard?
Perhaps they bear a personal grudge against the corps, or they won't work for them for moral issues (I know, I know, unthinkable). Perhaps they fear that once the corp has them under control they will begin to experiment upon them.

All that being said, in my campaign most mages work for corporations. The characters run the Shadows all have their own reasons for doing so that we worked out at character creation.
Not everyone would necessarily work for a corps because competition amongst mages dangerous. They're a rare resource, so a corp is going to want the most ideal choice out of the ones they can find. Not every 1% is a Houdini or Karl, some are just Masters of Rabiit-pulling, and of limited use.

So, that leaves the weak ones out to dry.

There's also those with the grudge, or lack of cooperation with Corps. Messing with a mage's head is dangerous - a lot of things can burn out a mage, so brainwashing isn't ideal.

Then, if you're sinless and a mage, there's the matter of getting said interview. You can't exactly walk up and say 'I want to work for you'. Not everyone takes it at face value. Even if you do get the job, the fact you're 'special' shouldn't net you the high spot immediately - the Corp wants to know you're worth the trouble. So you start low (usually), and prove yourself, thus getting promotions. If you make a good security mage, eventually you'll move up (assuming you don't die). Worse case, you won't make it out of security, but you may at least get a raise, since you can provide useful security measures the others can't.

It's a lot of little things, but they add up to give a good reason why there aren't more rich and fancy spellslingers.
You could just work into a magical recruitment agency who have the capability to exactly quantify your ability by asessensing, and THEY can get you a gig. Sure they will take a cut, but you're still sitting pretty.
A couple things.

First of all 1% is a small segment of the population. But not that tiny, especially since the vast majority likely go on to develop their abilities since others are always on the lookout. It means that there are more mages than doctors, even assuming a fair chunk of the 1% goes adept.

Second a security mage isn't just another Barney Fife. They're elite and well compensated for their position. It isn't that bad a deal. Also security is a big hiring source for mages. While generally useful there are only so many non security related magical jobs out there. Magical healing being pretty fast and all.

Finally those out in the cold. Some are held by loyalty to their gang or somesuch. Others have personal issues that make them hard to hire. Shamen in particular. But a lot of runners are just messed up in various way. And something that falls into is trust. A guard that goes bad can cause a lot of trouble. If the sec mage decides to burn the corp it's going to be horrible.
Who the hell would use a sec mage for security.

They have the movement power dude.


A staff of 40 mages with teh capability to use the Movement power at R4 on jetliners would generate Emirates an estimated additional revenue of ~3 billion dollars a year US annually. Assuming the a margin of 20% (higher than their currnet margin of 15%) and significantly increased overheads, those mages are each worth 375k a year salary.

And thats a conservative estimate. Its a hugely conservative estimate actually because they are saving you 11 billion dollars of capital costs on the way there.
Don't forget, that in general like gangers many shadowruns are simply, mentaly unbalanced, Don't forget you can have a perfectly normal seeming guy standing next to you..though on the week ends he shoots people in the face. the diffrence is he really does enjoy it smile.gif

oh and ofcourse you guys the guys that have magic but frankly might not be to bright or they simpyl didn't think of that. oh and lets not forget the normal egos and power trips that go along with things on the no no side of the fence smile.gif
They wont even have to think of it. Consultants will think of it and there will be MASSIVE RECRUITING DRIVES.

And if you think anyone is going to be a ganger when you can get 375k dollars (which is about 1/2 a million nuyen) and unlimited first class travel on emirates even if they do like stabbing people, you're still going to sign up.

Bloody hell, if you are slightly deranged they can cut you salary to a 'mere' 1/4 mil and use the rest to pay for a therapist per 2 mages.

You know that means your saving 325k a year while living a high lifestyle? You need to pay 100x the lifestyle cost to retire don't you with a permanent lifestyle? So thats what, retiring at 35 in a permnant high lifestyle?!?


Seriously, there are not going to be sec mages but no mage with magic 5-6 is ever going to have to run the shadows.

Note I'm ignoring the heal spell. You could get a job as an ER doc and clear 300k a year with the heal spell alone I suspect. And this is even ethically warm and fuzzy.
I was figuring in the heal spell. The trick being that it's a pretty fast spell, so there wouldn't be a massive demand for mages doing it. Though you'd need more if you paid them for all the time they spend sleeping off drain.

The movement thing falls into a broken area of the rules where they fail to account for scale very well if at all. Resulting in hypersonic arrows and, I don't know, could a spirit just accelerate the earth and send it out of orbit?

1% Awakened population consists of Magicians, Mystic Adepts, Adepts, & Spell/Spirit Knacks. Of those, at most 50% will ever exceed a Magic of 2, and maybe 5% will exceed a Magic of 4 (pre-augmentation). Of those that exceed Magic 4, most will never Initiate. The number of Initiates in the Magic 1 - 3 range is so small as to be 0.

Note - none of the above is Cannon (at least that I am aware of), but rather simple reasoning based on the supposed attribute values of the general population.

That being said, corporations look for magical talent - aka Magic 3+, preferably Magician/Mystic Initiates. This still leaves a significant number of Awakened that are generally unable to find employment as such due to a lack of abilities.

Of those that can reasonably take employment in a corporation, it is safe to assume a decent number would prefer not to be a WageSlave, and pursue their own endeavors - enchanting, mercenary, commission artist, thief, or other.

Put simply, I can see many reasons why one cannot/would not become a corporate employee, or have a low-level corporate job (security guard).
Nah I'd say you'd see a lot more magic 3-5. The reason being that they use magic for their job. The grunt type NPCs that have been presented typically manage 3-5 in their job related attribute.

Now I suppose there's some selection going on there. i.e. the smart guys take the thinky jubs, charismatic people take charismatic jobs, but nearly all potential magic users go that route.

But even so I'd think it'd be rare to see magic 1-2 people on the job. Maybe as freshly traind rockies.

How is Movement and Secmage incompatible? Get on the plane, summon a spirit, have it Movement the plane, and meanwhile, you're on call; if an alert comes in, warn the pilot that Movement might end, and astrally project to the location that generated the alert. That way, you're getting paid all the time for work your spirit is doing all the time, AND you're getting paid all the time for occasional alert responses. Meanwhile, every few hours, the plane stops at an airport, you stop by the airport clinic, you cast Heal on someone, you get paid, you recover the Drain during the next leg of travel.

I hurt my chin this weekend, got 5 stitches at an ER because it was Sunday and the regular clinics were closed. An ugly wound, but it can't be worse than 2 boxes, since five such wounds would not put me into overflow. I woulda paid a thousand dollars or more for a Heal spell to fix it instantly, if that were an available alternative to stitches.

Like the book says mages often pull sec duty on the side. Likely the mage summons a spirit in the morning to keep the plane booking all day sending it off on a remote service. Then they get to business putting up wards for their corp. But like doctors they may well be on call, expected to respond if there's trouble. Also they might well pull a couple security sweeps in a day.

Though, again, I dislike movement working on everything and anything so easily. I think you should have to work for it if you want to make an aircraft carrier outrun some airplanes.

Note from the FAQ

Not all critter powers require a Success Test or an Opposed Test, so how do you determine their effect against nonliving objects like drones? For example, does the Movement power only affect living beings, or does it also affect vehicles?

To determine if a critter power that doesn't normally call for a Success Test or Opposed Test affects a nonliving object, have the critter make a Magic x 2 (Object Resistance) Success Test. If the critter does not score enough hits to beat the Object Resistance threshold, then the object is unaffected.

So they at least need to make a test. But personally I think the threshold should scale with size.

First, please note that in most "First World" countries there is about 2 doctors per 1000 inhabitants. Yet, doctors aren't that uncommon. Helps you put things in perspective I guess.

IIRC, there was supposed to be some official text about the use of magic (and specifically the movement power) and why it's not as common as some would think.
As for the heal spell, I really doubt it'd be widely used. Chances are that magical healing requires authorization from Mundane doctors, and I'm pretty sure they'll be reluctant to give it, seeing how they're usually reluctant to new unorthodox treatments. Further you have to realize that magical healing must be applied quickly and even if it can fully heal, it can also have little to no effect (1 or 0 hits) and you can't apply mundane medical treatment afterward. So I guess that even if medical healing can be popular in some cultures, it will probably be less developed in a lot of places.
Note that my 400k is actually a ludiciously low estimate. You'd be much better off using the guy to push cargo ships around.

Note that movement 6 on an oil tanker would allow you to pay a magician ~150 billion dollars a year and you'd make a profit of ~150 billion dollars a year

And yes I mean billion

Who's used a magic user of 4+ on sec mage duty in a game. Do you have any rational reason for him not to be off using movement on oil tankers considering that he'd be able to make a billion dollars a year?

A mage using movement 4 on cargo ships would generate profits (conservatively estimated at) 22 billion dollars per annum.

so after you pay him 2 billion dollars per annum, you then pocket the cool 20 billion you made.

Seriously guys, no mage on earth would ever do anything with a real material risk of being killed when you could just work shipping instead and demand billions of dollars.

Please note, my estimate includes no value attached to the fact your ships are 2-6 times faster in delivering time sensitive cargo which may carry significant economic benefits when hauling some cargos, resulting in further profits.

Another application of Movement. The military. A movement 6 enhanced strategic bomber could actually outrun most surface to air missles thanks to its almost hypersonic speeds, making them significantly more useful. A supersonic fighter would be impossible to shoot down conventionally.
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Aug 7 2008, 09:01 AM) *
so after you pay him 2 billion dollars per annum, you then pocket the cool 20 billion you made.

Seriously guys, no mage on earth would ever do anything with a real material risk of being killed when you could just work shipping instead and demand billions of dollars.

Except that no mage on earth would move more than one cargo at that markup. Why bother, when you have 50 million in the bank? So the Corps won't pay that much, so there isn't the incentive.

As has been pointed out, there are micro features of the Sixth World that have "unforseen consequences" if we assume they just scale up past the parameters of the game as envisaged by its creators. Since there are, indubitably, Magic 4-6 Mages working as elite security, or even as plain Ward-ens for the corps, and the canon doesn't speak of superspeed bulk carriers, and there *are* initiated hermetic magicians working as freelancers, perhaps we should be looking for the reasons why our assumptions about scaling are mistaken?
Edit: Any corp that didn't pay that much would instantly loose all its mages to defections to whichever corp did pay that much. Why squabble over a reduction in margin of 10% when you already making 80% or more on the underlying assets. Maybe your an idiot? It would be seriously hard to stop a rank 6 mage being able to defect when you are letting him summon spirits and cast spells.

I dunno, its not like bill gates stopped after his first 50 million. I'd keep working until I can afford my own on site medical team which, being in that I'd need to pay mages for it, is actually quite expensive.

Part of the problem is that SR keeps reducing the amount of people in the fluff as a precentage who are awakened while simulatenously introducing more ways to become awakened and saying more people are awakening.

Which is dumb.

If you blow out the percentage of awakened to like 5%, and say full mages are 1%, adepts are another 1% mystic adepts are 1%, randoms with spell knacks are 1% and squibs with magic 1-2 are another 1%, the game almost makes sense.

In that case supply would drive down salaries of, say, shipping workers.
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (sunnyside @ Aug 7 2008, 08:12 AM) *
So they at least need to make a test. But personally I think the threshold should scale with size.

Note that "Highly Processed Objects (Computers, Complex Toxic Wastes, Drones, Vehicles)" require 4+ hits. You can scale this value however you like. Given that Aircraft in 2070 contain their own miniature networks for running fly-by-wire and maintaining internal atmosphere as well as computing flight paths and processing data from ground and sat on various environmental factors and all these aspects require Computers, requiring 8 or more hits is perfectly reasonable. Large cargo vehicles are just that complex.

This means that you have to possess truly atrociously powerful mages to repeatedly pull off applying movement reliably to these vehicles. Those mages will be earning princely sums because they're so very powerful and are still corp-loyal. They have a lot of better uses than putting movement on jumbos or tankers, though.

I actually think that a lot of (most?) Wagemages are Magic 1-3 types. The kind who can cast Crank, Healthy Glow, Fast, Stim and Nutrition but don't require good wages or job conditions. Wagemages like this are also going to end up providing counterspelling for security, because they're not amazing and that means that they don't expect the world for just showing up. Corps prefer reliable, cheap service for consumers and widespread security, they prefer to reserve the expensive, tempramental or high-maintenance things for strategic benefit like protecting the CEO or the futuretech R&D lab.

As for why mages will end up in the Shadows; all the same reasons other archetypes end up in the Shadows. This is reinforced by the fact that many mages have a strong ideology that takes precedence over loyalty to a corp, and this makes them less desirable than the Hermetic willing to sell his services to the highest bidder.

If you really hate Renraku turning thier dead CEO into a kami and take this as the proof of the complete disregard of the sanctity of your religion by the corps, then you're probably more offended than any corp can compensate. These kinds of things are often underestimated factors in decisions.
There are a lot of magic 1 or magic 2 people. It's not like every mage has magic 3-6. A magic 1 mage would have to overcast just to slap on a movement 2 on a vehicle, and the most a magic 2 would be able to do is 4 (that is if they want to risk bleeding out their ears, which most people won't do.)

At our table we run the movement power as "within reason." A force six spirit might be able to movement a medium sized boat, but a huge heavy tanker is most likely not going to happen. Spirits are generally meant to be able to movement objects the size of people, drones, and small vehicles so applying a fairly low force spirit to movement something thousands of times larger then that I would think might not be done at most tables.

I do however believe that 1% of the population being awakened seems kind of silly. I always thought in my mind it should by somewhere between 2-5%.

*edit* as to the reply above don't forget that some Shadowrunning mages just screwed the pooch so hard that they can't get a gig for any corp anywhere. *edit*
Yeah, but while the 1-2 mages as sec mages is nice.. thats not actually what the published adventures call for in terms of sec mage power.


Most of them semto be at the 'big' end of town. And seriously, magic 5 is probably better in the ER!
Isath it has allready been pointed out not every mage is eligible to work for a corp. There are many reasons not to hire a mage if he's more trouble than benefit. Also there are those that still do not want to work for a corp, massive sallary or not.

So... why do mages fullfill security duties anyway - because there is a demand for it. The corps make the market here and they decide what mages will be used for. They need magical security, so they hire mages for it. Sure, they also hire mages for other purposes, but with magic being dangerous a factor they will want measures to be safe. Also as with mudane people, there are talents and preferences, maybe some mages do not want to be pilots or magical liftloaders and maybe some can't (same goes for security ofcause).

Some mages deal in entertainment other become investigators and others again become researchers or medics. Maybe some mages even do the liftloading, still there are many factors in all of this. So let's have a look at magical healing. Magic means of health are potentially more potent than medicine, as you can infact work wonders - you will need to have a specialist though. Now look at the way many medical means are handled today and project it to the SR scenario (though it probably doesn't make a huge difference). It is always more profitable to treat a disease, than to heal it. So even if there are enogh corruptable mages out there, the pharma industry just is better off selling regular treatments and therapies, than they might be with wonderous healing.

There also might be the opic of bias agains magic and their users but I won't open that box right now.

There sure is a number of complications coming with the use of magic in some sectors and some threats tend to be drawn more to magic than to the mudane, especially in the more "feral" areas (like the open sea for example).

After all there are many arguments one can come up for something fantastic to be plausible or not - it will most probably stay hypothetical.
I don't buy that the average Mage can just use Movement to retire after a year, but if that's how you wanna run your, uh, 'game': cool.

I tone down the number of Awakened a few notches, and even then I remember a chunk of 'em are Shamans, who are statistically (depends on totem/calling/motive) less likely to work in the clockwork Corporate world. Then a lot of 'em are barely capable of little more then parlor tricks-- still an asset and looks good on the resume, yeah, but not a full-fledged spell slinger. Maybe the wilder ones were part of a Wizkid gang when they were teens before growing up and settling in for the exciting, intricate world of accounting.

All that fluff aside, there's also the fact that most posters here have a hard-on for large numbers (perhaps encouraged by the game designers-- don't care, it's nowhere to be found in my campaign): a security mage with a Magic of 5 or 6 is a little much. Maybe if he's the "Head of Ares Magical Security Assets" or "Head of Shiawase Paranormal Security" of the whole building/office/facility or, hell, all of Seattle or respective district. Maybe.
For the people talking about healing and cargo moving, don't forget there are a lot of areas with high backround counts around the world, hell most citys have areas with nasty backround counts if you belive the fiction, and as posted above given that the core book says most prof type people have skills and att's at lvl 3 many of the mages we play with 5 and 6 magic levels and lvl 6 spell casting would be in the minority, granted skill wise you would have higher levels in reaseach dept. in corp and goverment style area's, as well as schools like MIT's magic branch (i forget the full name) but those guys are researching it not using it so much, then you have the mercs, solders,corp teams, ect with higher skills becouse its there job, now to how the rules of the game run, high skill does not mean high att, but then if you are smart enough a mage with a magic stat of 3 can beat a 6 if he's sneaky smile.gif granted it changes if you bring spirits into play,

As for the healing part, don't forget about peoples mistrust, magic is not super rare but its not on every corner of town either, and people don't like what they don't understand. So even when offered many people would most likly turn it down. and not many doctors in major citys would use it most likly, and in the end don't forget, reguardless of how unbalanced runners are the char's we make for games are more or less at the top of there feilds skill and stat wise, They might be down, they might be out, but we are running char's with pistol skills of 4-6 or hacking skills or magic skills ect, these are ranges for what would be considered the best of the best, if you really want to get into why would a mage not just run cargo or healing, well. Why would a hacker hack with such high computer skills? what about your teams hot shot rigger? or your teams face? why isn't he out in hollywood making a mint? smile.gif its a fun arguement but all mote,

In the end just look in the mirror and repeat to your self, Its in the script.
Yes, I think you are absolutely right there. For my part I am more of a creative person and I have my problems functioning with bureaucracy and corporate clockworks (having out of the norm sleeping habits as well). If I imagine, that I would have to work some more esotheric, paranormal talents for some bureaucrats that do not understand how it works and what is necessary or hindering when doing it, it makes me shiver. Actually I do not know if I could really manage that. I have had a few jobs with smaller agencies though that supported a more creative working climate, that worked quite well for a while.

Now depending on tradition and the individual, I can see many awakened having a hard time with corporate employment. If you put a spirit guide into the equasion you just might not have an easy time with planning any sort of carreer.
As has been mentioned Cthulhudreams since we don't hear about everything being movemented in the game I think it's better to assume RAW comes up a bit short on that power. (Or rather the GM should interprite the 4+ in the object resistance table to include increasing size). Additionally within RAW the GM could factor in the effects of moving that speed. I.e. structural failure, horribly high collision odds and consequences.

Personally I'd rather see the power restricted to things about the same size as the spirit. THough I think the 4+ thing is a good idea in general unless you want your oil tanker taken down by a couple power bolts or somesuch.
The problem with saying that lots of mages arn't qualified for a corp job doesn't relly address why they'd go shadowrunning.

You can make a 0 risk high lifestyle by gathering telesma. Why am I out getting my ass shot off again?

And it reduces the number of availible mages for sec work even further. Assume 5 % of mages are qualified in and want to do sec work - remember, decent magic score, high counterspelling, combat spells known - that means that 0.05% of the population are qualified to do sec work

Assuming they all do it, that means a facility of 2000 qualifies for a sec mage. But thats working 9-5. You actually need 5 guys to offer 24/7 coverage of a facility.

So that means facilities of 10k people may have an onsite sec mage.

And again, removing movement fixes nothing. Consider Heal and ER.

ER doctors get paid about 200,000 dollars today. Thats more in nuyen, but okay. So that means that a high lifestyle sawbones can still save 80,000 nuyen a year

And thats working in a clinic where you get to feel good and have no risk of getting stabbed.

Seriously. No-one is going to do a job that involves professionals attempting to murder you when you can just do something at no risk.
You screw up. Why is the crazy gun bunny not in special forces? Probably because he screwed up somewhere. Might have even been in the special forces until it all went to hell. I always thought of Shadowrunners as generally created by falling from grace, or they want to make money fast and get out of the game before it kills them. Others seek power, some seek adventure, and even more don't want their freedoms limited and you might not get that working in a corp.

A corp might just stick you in a job and give you no real choice of what you are going to do. Although they might pay well you might be basically a prisoner within the compound you are placed in. It's probably why runners are hired to steal people from other corporate facilities. Maybe the cage will be better, maybe worse, but it might be better taking the chance instead of being cooped up in said facility for ten or twenty more years.
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Aug 7 2008, 03:26 AM) *
So that means facilities of 10k people may have an onsite sec mage.

Not accurate. 1% of the population (global) is Awakened. This could very well vary by geographical regions. For example, there could theoretically be a city with a population of 200,000 that has no more than 50 Awakened. Conversely, there could be a town with a population of 20,000 that has over 2,500 Awakened.

A facility that uses active magical security will artificially inflate the percentage of security employee's who are Awakened by seeking them out from other locals, if they do not have enough on-site already. Essentially, a facility with 500 people that uses magical security could very well have a 10% or higher Awakened population.
Mages have to go to college. They have to learn complex algorithyms and abstract concepts at the same time. They also should probably be brave, but not stupid, in order to venture into the astral and not die. They also should probably understand their value in the workforce and the politics that go with that. But the big one is that they have to learn obscenely complex algorithyms.

Think about it. Mage magic is not mathematics. It is not calculus or trigonometry. It's a little bit more like algebra, except X is a thousand different things that cover far more abstract things than basic maths. Also, it's in another language.

Now think of that importance corps put on mages. the Awakened know that they're valuable. They're probably daddy's favourite son, and mommy's favourite son, because they're going to get a scholarship to go to university.

They also have the teen mystique of awakening, and while there might be a little prejudice, for the most part, chicks will dig that.

Give them a scholarship then consider my above points. Mages are for a decent part, fratboy arseholes on football scholarships. And while a few are actually training to become corporate magical researchers and maybe even some become special forces, the rest of these guys are too busy getting high on the lawn and tapping the dorm chicks. Oo-rah! Gamma Zeta Epsilon REPRESENT!

And that's why we have so many magical security guards.
Again a mage on sec duty would rarely be doing that full time. They'd be warding mostly, or maybe healing or whatever and then when the fit hits the shan they get called in.

Also considering where much telesma is I"m not so sure it's a zero risk proposition.

Oh, also I don't know if it's been mentioned but a lot of mages could be runners because someone is gunning for them. Being able to kill with a thought even when drunk is probably a quick way to get in trouble with the law. As is using control actions to have your way with a cheerleader. And in general a lot of the stuff magic would tempt them to do. Beyond that people may be after them for personal reasons. Or maybe there's that spirit that went free and still worries about its true name.

Staying in one place where you can be found just won't cut it at that point.
Shamans have to go to college? Granted some mages might have to go to college to learn their certain types of spells, but I was under the impression that magic works the way the caster believes it to work. Some need to draw pentagrams and whisper arcane languages, others need a complex formula to work. There is probably a type that needs to draw circles onto some cheese to get a spell, ward, or summoning to work.

There are many different types of traditions and not every single one requires college training to obtain. I doubt the first Native American, or Aztec mages needed to go to college to start working their mojo. I think though that the next generation of mages from those traditions needed a mentor shaman or priest to help teach them.
I think you can compare sec mage with security hackers.
Today you can get a lot of money with software: Microsoft and Google are here to prove it, to name a few. I seriously doubt that more than 1% of the world's population is in software engineering, yet there are a lot of them who work in computer security and they're not necessarily the worst.
Don't also forget, that this teen mistery of awakening is not always (or even often) that glamorous it can be traumatic. Uh, Oh, little Johnny is starting to see and hear things... he wont let go of invisible friends or just behaves strangely. Awakening childreen and teens might as well be victims of a "we have to be normal, so take your pills and you'll be fine" mentality. They might end up being heavily disturbed and or frustrated. Sure, that doesn't speak against them being arses. wink.gif Mommy and daddy are not necessarily proud of breeding a "mutant". Which brings us to the point, that there are quite some metas in the equation. There are bias against magic, there are bias against metas, sure as hell there are even more bias against magical metas. Grow up with that.

There are so many reasons out there.
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Aug 7 2008, 04:36 AM) *
Not accurate. 1% of the population (global) is Awakened. This could very well vary by geographical regions. For example, there could theoretically be a city with a population of 200,000 that has no more than 50 Awakened. Conversely, there could be a town with a population of 20,000 that has over 2,500 Awakened.

A facility that uses active magical security will artificially inflate the percentage of security employee's who are Awakened by seeking them out from other locals, if they do not have enough on-site already. Essentially, a facility with 500 people that uses magical security could very well have a 10% or higher Awakened population.

Yeah, obviously, but seriously because magical workers are thin on the ground they are going to have very high mobility. And for every tiny reasearch facility that has 5 guards per 500 desks (or more practically 25 high force magicians guarding 495 people) there has to be a serious stripping out in other professional fields.

And it still doesn't explain why they wouldn't want to become a doctor. Seriously, who looks at these two choices and picks B

A) I can work as a trauma surgeon, except unlike a real doctor, I don't need any training. Sure I'm on call, but I get to save lives and shit, and for that I get paid 300,000 dollars.

B) I work as a security guard where professional killers try and murder me on a regular basis, I'm on call 24/7, the work is extremely dangerous and if I do my job well I then have to try and kill people in a firefight - who will try and kill me right back, and their motto is 'geek the mage first', but I get a cool 300k a year! If I'm lucky! Note that real security professionals get paid nothing like that. (300k would mean that the total cost of 1 sec mage on duty is 1.5 million nuyen annually in salary costs alone)

Seriously. What the hell. Who here would pick B? If so, are you some sort of idiot.

Edit: I don't care about people who are unemployable. I'm only thinking about the people who have the mental stability to have a real job, because they are the only people who can work as sec mages. My point is there should be no sec mages, realistically.
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Aug 7 2008, 10:40 AM) *

Give them a scholarship then consider my above points. Mages are for a decent part, fratboy arseholes on football scholarships. And while a few are actually training to become corporate magical researchers and maybe even some become special forces, the rest of these guys are too busy getting high on the lawn and tapping the dorm chicks. Oo-rah! Gamma Zeta Epsilon REPRESENT!

And that's why we have so many magical security guards.


That made me larf.
Magical healing is a one shot kind of deal. You would probably only need a single on call healing/cure disease mage for a very very large area (for when normal medical means do not work.) The way healing rules are written you wouldn't jump to the mage first, and if you need him he could just zip on over, appear and heal the patient, or have a spirit of man do it on a remote service. They might not even pay that well if there is very little demand, or the amount of mages needed compared to the ones who can do the job will probably offset the wages by a little bit.

There is a demand for healing but I think there is a higher demand for security mages, but I feel like corporate facilities don't get hit all the time (unless that is the setting you play.) Probably the majority of sec mages don't get hassled during their job, and those that do are probably few and far between. I just don't think real professional Shadowrunners are all over the place hitting facilities on a routine basis. Now that is a different setting if hits on facilities are extremely common then having a job as a sec mage would totally suck balls.
First, relying solely on magic for your supposed medical profession is retarded, plain and simple. While being able to magically heal & Assense your patients is a distinct advantage, that alone is far from qualifying as a medical professional & will not bring in your proposed funds.

Second, it is quite reasonable to assume that not everyone of said level is capable of option A - even under your assumption that all you need is a single spell. Many could have military training and simply be far better suited for a security-type position.

Finally, I know numerous people that could easily be receiving much greater income in a different field. Why don't they? Because they have no desire to work said field. They enjoy their current job, are comfortable with it, &/or various other factors. Some people enjoy the risk. Others enjoy the option to protect people (distinctly different from dealing with the injured). Some want the option to injure others.

Put simply, there is a significant number of reasons why a magician would choose Corporate Security/Armed Forces over Medical Professional or Other.
If you pick Option A you don't get to fireball anyone, and what's the point of having superpowers if you can't fireball people?
There just isn't that much demand for magical healers.

Unless you want to blow your own spleen you have to only cast on damage less than your or equal to your magic rating. And if you're doing that you're probably not taking any drain. Ditto for cure and detox really, especially since at those wages they'll probably spot you some foci.

What does that mean? A single mage goes a long way, being able to process a vast number of patients as they only need to spend seconds with each. 2-4 mages per hospital might be enough.

I'm guessing the mages that would win the positions would be those with good drain soaking stats so they can go strong all day long.

Though on the warding note I bet they'd want the mage to summon up a spirit to just ward certain areas of the hospital as part of the contract.
Just as there are significant reasons why someone would rather not join Corporate Security/Special Forces. It's all relative and in the end it all turns into a circular argument.

As for myself I just take the world today and try and overlay it with Shadowrun if possible (except everything sucks more for the most part.) Some people seek medical careers, and some seek military careers, while others just do everyday stuff in RL. Not every mage even falls under researcher, military, shadowrunner, medical professions. I bet there are probably some mages who just have a crappy wage slave job and use their magical powers for trivial baloney. Some mages might be bums or BTL burnouts where despite the fact they have power they are just lost in a sea of VR or drugs to pull themselves out of the gutter and do something. Just because mages are mages does not mean they suddenly only get fit into one box or another. In the end mages are people and people do people... stuff... let there be some sort of mix with a somewhat push or pull to one type of job or another that fits with a mages spell choice. Mages vary and it's nice to have a game where you can see that not all mages fit one job description or another.
My point is there should be no sec mages, realistically.

Ok I won't start arguing about absolute statements and realism, with the addiotion of the aspects of a fantasy game. wink.gif

Still, some people just do not want to be doctors and some people can't. First, there might still be a requirement of medical studies. Second maybe you aren't such a talented healer, maybe you are better at manipulation, combat, illusion or detection spells, maybe you do not even like people or healing them, maybe you do not like all the blood and gore or diseases around you.

Sure, you may have blood and gore being a sec mage, then again the chances are low. There are different kinds of security sevices, with most of the shooting stuff usually being done by the mudanes. You deal with securing the corp against awakened penetration and threats, maybe do a little surveilance and so on. Most of the time awakened security is a clean job with quite some possibilities to do personal studies or experimenting with your skills. On the other hand, maybe you like the thrill that some security positions might give you, maybe you have some fight in you and like to play territorial bully for good money.

I guess there are reasons, why people that can get an academic degree or even have one go into law enforcement and alot of other fields. Maybe the reasons do not differ from mudane choices all too much.

P.S. Corporate security in SR sure is better than to be a cop, while it still is law enforcement, only that the state is a megacorp (they have their own laws and all that extraterritory stuff).
Shamans have to go to college?

If you look, you'll note I actually said mages, indicating hermetics, who, let's face it, end up in corporate positions. A shaman is an artist, yeah maybe they'll work for a corp, but I think you'd definately find more shamans in independent business.

The main problem is that you're equating opportunity with ambition. The awakening equals opportunity, not ambition, or success.

But to extend the artist metaphor, sure, shamans have courses at MIT&T, just like most conventional universities offer conventional courses like "fine arts" (in australia), and then you've got a fair few big art schools everywhere.

The point is that of that 1%, not all are eligible for all the roles you want to put them in. My point with the fratboy example was that just because some-one has the potential to do it, does not nearly mean that they will. Just because statistically they can make a whole lot of money.

Think about how many people you know who can draw well. I can draw, some of my friends can, and some of them just can't. Now imagine how many of those friends who can draw go to art school. And now, how many of those kids who go to art school end up multi-billion dollar art world commodities? Yeah. Not many. My mother and father can draw, and they both went to art school. My mother is a therapist in a nursing home and my father is on a disability pension.

But they could have made million dollars, right? So why didn't they?
Two other quick thoughts.

In addition to not needing so many mages per hospital you probably get people that want to heal, especially healy shamen, who may be willing to work on the cheap. Undercutting wages.

Also there may be a power aspect to running and stuff like that. Karma/Legend is "real" in Shadowrun/Earthdawn and being in the action is the fastest way to get it. That probably gets addictive.
Tiger Eyes
QUOTE (sunnyside @ Aug 7 2008, 06:03 AM) *
Two other quick thoughts.

In addition to not needing so many mages per hospital you probably get people that want to heal, especially healy shamen, who may be willing to work on the cheap. Undercutting wages.

Hospitals are probably places with background counts. People suffering, pain, misery, death... on a constant, 24/7 basis. Add to that the number of folks with some cyberware (even if it is minor). Then look at how well your average shaman (magic 3) is going to be able to work in that environment--they aren't going to be that effective. And in an ER? I'd guess background count would jack up even higher. Then think about how the shaman (or mage) would feel about the astral space there. And how effective spirits would be. Heck, your magic 3 shaman probably just lost all his/her magic abilities in the ER when the busload of crash victims gets wheeled in...

Magical healing - and magical healers - are probably more effective in little clinics out in the woods. And who's going to go there? Not the gunshot victim. There is a reason why in the UCAS, magical healing isn't mainstream...
Uuuuh... you can clean up astral background count. Yeah there is suffering 24/7, but that is what the astral janitorial mage is for. Background count is not always the win, and mages can clean it up given time. A valid point though the mage would need one more thing going for him in that he would have to remove the background count in a hospital every once and a while. Scrub it clean mundanely and scrub it clean astrally. Makes sense. Although if an entire bus filled with people gets hammered I would think that they would take that massive influx of people and split them up between different hospitals.

I always thought that not everyone and their mother has cyber/bioware in the SR world (or at least no more then a datajack.) It's probably not so prominent in every tom dick and jane that it will knock hits off of your ability to heal the person (bio/cyber > 0.5 worth of essence.) There are also rankings for hospitals in the BBB and probably the elite hospitals probably are the ones with the high lvl mages that deal with the heavily cyber/biowared people instead of the lower end hospitals.

Magical healing can only be done once to a specific set of wounds or disease or what have you. It should be the last option. Kind of like how generally surgery is the last option for doctors (if they can help it.) You only get one shot, and if that mage fails thats it your done on the magical help. A mage might try and heal you before you have to go into surgery (aka probably extended care,) but after that the only thing their heal spell could be used for is preventing the doctor from killing you on the table. The only problem is a doctor has to cut you up and wound you before he can remove what you need removed, so a heal spell might reset the clock on what a doctor needs to do. All very tricky in my opinion to the point where I would think that a mage would also need as much mundane medical training as a normal doctor so that it can make the use of his magical heal that much more effective. It then also means that there probably a few who work in the medical profession. I'm sure they get payed the big bucks, but I would think a mage like that there might be a single one assigned to a group of low-medium end hospitals.

Just my 2 nuyen.gif
De Badd Ass
Don't forget Humanis.

Also, Astral Travel being what it is, Security Mage jobs are a good candidate for Outsourcing. Get a 1000 mages from Bangalore working for a security company. They send their spirits to patrol the client's properties, and are prepared to respond astrally. That's gotta PO the locals to some degree.

Plus, like a certain Drug Czar once said, "Crime is a career choice. Some people are convinced that crime pays better than honest work."
QUOTE (masterofm @ Aug 7 2008, 10:56 AM) *
Shamans have to go to college?

My urban shaman PC did.
Granted, he didn't get a degree, but a drinking problem...but still.

SR fluff suggests that college education in thaumaturgy might be mostly for hermetics, but not exclusively.
Shamanism and wicca classes are mentioned regularly, even though they might be less well-funded than their hermetic counterparts.
Wuxia, Cabala and parts of druidism are described as highly academic disciplines.

Hermetics doesn't work for everyone.
To be a good hermetic, you have to be a highly organized, extremely rational person.
What if you aren't, but still are highly talented?
Should a corp let the talent of all the people who have Logic as their dump stat (i'm exagerating a bit, but still, LOG 3 won't get you far as a hermetic), but a decent Magic and Charisma or Intuition attribute, go to waste?
Or would it be much better to find traditions more suited to their talents?

Moreover, having magic, no matter which tradition, taught at a university, means at least some degree of control over the curriculum.
Governments and corporations should have an interest in having a say in who gets to learn how to kill people with a thought or read and control other people's minds.
Much easier when magical education is institutionalized.

Don't get me wrong, there'll still be plenty people around who get to learn spellslinging from their granny or their tribe's witchdoctor, especially in rural areas.
An awakened who is born SINless can be happy if he finds a whizzer gang or a street witch to tell her how to work her mojo.

But still, college education for traditions besides hermetic magic are around in official fluff and there's plenty of good reasons for it.
@masterofm I see mages in hospitals as being the finishing touch. The doctors do everything you can but than in real life you're lying there with tubes and stiches and you're goingto be sore and hurting for a looooong while.

The mages task is to clear off those last four boxes of damage.

Heath Robinson
QUOTE (sunnyside @ Aug 7 2008, 08:47 PM) *
@masterofm I see mages in hospitals as being the finishing touch. The doctors do everything you can but than in real life you're lying there with tubes and stiches and you're goingto be sore and hurting for a looooong while.

The mages task is to clear off those last four boxes of damage.

Bah, the mages task is to clear off another 4 boxes of damage (only on gold or platinum service, though). Then you linger for a while, tended to by normal medicine. Now, if you have the orichalcum service you can get one of their Adepts with Empathic Healing to take all the damage off you and have the bed rest instead. You still pay for their care, but you're up and about long before you would normally be.
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