Hey everyone,

Now I am a noob Gm to this game and I'm looking at things in both Arsenal and the Core book. I'm looking at the weapons and I see the new sniper rifles and new assault cannons and I wonder why whould you take an assault cannon over a sniper rifle. The sniper rifle and the Assault Cannons can be used at similar ranges and can do about same amount of damage give or take a few points. The difference is the sniper rifle can fire more often, takes more ammo, can be hidin, and finally can use differnt ammo to make it an insanely powerful gun while the assault cannon can only fire one type of ammo and you take terrible recoil (in the case of the thundershock) if fired more then once. So then I ask why bother with assault cannons? Is there something Im missing?

I'd say the short answer is: Style.

The long answer: The assault cannon is a remnant from old editions when it was also still feasible to run with a pink mohawk. Nowadays where all shadowrunners have inconspicuous black hair and wear trenchcoats, there is indeed no more room for a little panther besides the mighty Ranger Arms.

Well, the Phanter Assault Cannon is a military man portable anti-tank weapon and that's why it is still in the book.

Sure, a runner would go with a portable sniper rifle but a ten man team of soldiers might have a sniper rifle and a AC.

Book Stats aside they serve two different functions as the they might have a similar damage code but i would bet money that the AC have a far higher intimidation factor and makes bigger holes.

There's always the intimidation factor to consider. A hit using an assault cannon makes an impression, while a hit done with a Barrett Model 121 makes you just another sniper. I'm fairly new to the game myself, but from what I've seen shadowrun makes it possible to do the same thing a number of different ways.

You can use a Barrett with EX-Explosive ammo to get the same damage code, AP, and recoil compensation as a Panther Cannon, and do it quietly with semi-auto fire and a built in smartgun system and silencer for 9,140 , counting the ammo.

Or you can grab a Panther Cannon for 6,175 (counting ammo) and do things loud and cheap. For an extra 700 , you can slap on a firing selection mod and an external smartgun system, and get virtually the same performance: Minus the silencer, but plus one ammo capacity, all for 2,265 less than a Barrett 121 with Ex-Ex. If your GM is the "RAW over reality" type, you might even convince him to let you add a silencer for another 200 (400 as an internal modification)--neither the BBB nor Arsenal actually says you can't silence an assault cannon.

Likewise, while the fluff text builds up the image of assault cannons as recoil monsters, I can't find anything that actually gives a number other than the standard rules.

The Thunderstruck is still an early model, and the Vigourus Assault Cannon is more a stripped-down budget model than an improvement, while none of the other sniper rifles can match the Panther Cannon's damage code, no matter what ammo you use.

Different weapons for different approaches, omae. The question is:

A) How much do you want to spend?

and

B) Do you want them to crap their pants before or after you shoot them?

I think the main reason for using assault cannons is that Heavy weapons skill covers more usefull stuff (grenade launcers,machineguns etc.) than long arms skill.

And ofcource some times you just need that 10P -6/-9AP damage code offered by assault cannon loaded with AV-ammo.
Also with right mods the assault cannon has a SA firing mode and can be deassembled to parts that fit in to carry back.

1. and primary as stated above, Style, after all what good is power with out style,

2. becouse like the green mohawk it will never go out of style, After all not all teams are black ops and not all teams do things quietly, Some times a statement must be made, some times you want a mess, and hey, there are always people that want to higher you to leave a message, and what better delivery boy then a cannon

Actually per the errata EX-EX is toned down to +1DV -1AP (regular explosive just gives +1 DV) They messed with flechet too.
http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/sr4/sr4_errata_v15.pdf

Therefore the assault cannon still hits just a little bit harder.

They're probably a hold-over from the old WWI anti-tank rifles. These weapons seem to be getting mad love from game designers starting way back in the early 80s. A 20mm man-portable cannon was also in the original Cyberpunk RPG and those FASA guys, by golly, weren't going to be left in a rut by skimping out in this area when they put out SR 1st a year later.

If you're looking for rules and stats, it's because Assault Cannons use Heavy Weapons instead of Longarms. That's about it.

If you're looking for Role Playing reasons, as above, style. Assault Cannons are the "BIG STICK" to pull out. Yes, they're noisy, they have insane recoil, and they have a massive muzzle flash, and that's exactly what you're paying for!

A sniper rifle is big, intimidating, and can kill you across a few football fields (CFL ones, too!).

An Assault Cannon can make people drek their pants just by opening your Two-Body Trunk of the Armoured Americar and showing them what will happen if they frag with you.

Though OTOH, you get Longarms for cheap if you take the firearms group (shotguns aren't what they used to be though without houserules ). I prefer it personally in my games because 90% of the time, something bigger than an assault rifle is carried on the run, the associated skill to fire it, will be gunnery.

Concerning intimidation, there's indeed a difference between a rifle which will put a nice clean hole in the victim's head, a shotgun, which will splatter his brains all across the room and an assault cannon with a barrel big enough it could fire whole babies at you. Certainly a situation in which as a GM I'd think about using my freedom to apply random +/- 1-3 mods to rolls.

I'm aware of that.

Barrett Model 121: Damage: 9P, AP: -4, Mode: SA, RC: (2), Ammo: 14( c ), Availability: 18F, Cost: 9,000

Add +1 DV +1 AP from ex-ex, and you match the pather assault cannon's damage code of 10P -5 AP exactly.

As I said, no other sniper rifle can do this, regardless of it's ammo.

Hmm, availability might be a factor too, come to think of it...

>checks<

18F for the Barrett, 20F for the Panther Cannon, and a four point difference on the ammo. (16F for assault cannon rounds, 12F for ex-ex)

So using an assault cannon also says you know somebody.

I think SR has always cheated the Assault cannon by just treating it like an extra-large elephant gun.

I think the The Barrett Firearms XM109 is a much better model for an assault cannon. I think it would be better modeled as a grenade launcher with sniper rifle ranges.

Stupid arsenal......

Anyway Sniper rifles and the assault cannon are possibly convergent technologies. I.e. you're building up to 25mm sniper rifles with high explosive ammo compared to the assault cannon which is likely patterned after a 25mm anti tank cannon and uses explosive ammo.

Older editions required you to be a troll or have a gyromount for stuff like that. Any rules like that around now?

Well, anti-tank rifles ARE t3h pwn. Even if they don't really affect tanks. But look on the bright side...you could sneak up behind a BMP and fire through the rear doors. I'll bet that'd work. And you'd probably kill some of the passengers.


Anyway, that being said, the whole entire point of the assault cannon in SR is to imitate the big old rifles they had in Robocop.

Good call! And those were Plain Jane Barret Light 50s (M82A1 for your military types).

That would be a very BIG silencer
[img]http://www.silencertests.com/albums/Oddities/Haubitzenschalldaempfer.jpg[/img]

I think the problem here is that AV rounds are whack.... the assault cannon should be seen as an anti material rifle, and should thus have big bgi bgi penetration on vehicles. The top end sniper rifle will be a .50 cal, and the base assault cannon would be a 20mm round. I think my overall opinion on the matter is that regular AV rounds are overpowered, and they should all follow a -1/-3 or upping the AC AV rounds to -4/-6 to reflect their nature and use.

They should also expand assault cannons to have burst weapondry like real 20 and 30mm rounds currently used, but this would become one of those "real" firearms threads fast if it went that way

Why an Assault Cannon?

BOOM......BOOM....waves hand through smoke...squints...BOOM...BOOM.........BOOM.
Don't ya love it at this range they look like ants running all crazy like when they hear the boom and one of em blows up he hehe.

Well the AC AV round actually adds to AP of the cannon, normal AV rounds replace the AP value of the gun.

Really? I've never noticed that. Where does it say that?

Wow, ok, that is a bit of semantics there I never noticed...

vs the AC AV

emphasis mine
Makes APDS and AV rounds in an AC the same then

Well i only noticed it today my self.

Aren't assault cannons AoE too?

HERETIC!!!










Except for actually, you can't.
ACs fire non-standard ammunition and therefore cannot be modded to fire in another mode.

Sniper rifles, on the other hand, can easily be beefed up to FA.
Which makes the Barret-121 the best man-portable firearm in the entire game.

By RAW, the only thing that can be said in favour of ACs is the fact that Gunnery is more flexible than longarms, allowing you to use MGs, grenade and missile launchers.
Which is why assault cannons rightfully aren't as good as sniper rifles- otherwise, there'd be no mechanical need for the longarms skill.

As it is, you have the choice between being a heavy weapons generalist or a maximized damage output specialist.

Yes, i know, you can also simply take the Firearms skill group which makes you even more versatile and also includes longarms.
But an entire skillgroup is even more expensive than, say, taking both Gunnery and Automatics, and it is capped at 4 at chargen.

The rule isn't against ammo.

Arsenal, 151, "Th is modification is not available for weapons using unusual loading mechanisms or exotic ammunition, like the Sakura Fubuki or Pain Inducer." Panthers use neither, thus, would be valid for this mod.


Wrong again. Barret, 9P base. 18P for full auto. Ares Vigorous, 10P, 19P for full auto. Sure, you only get one full auto out of it, but its gonna hurt.

Well that your call if your the GM of your group, but the mods decription uses the word exotic ammunition and lists an pain inducer as an example.
I wouldn't call AC rounds exotic, their just big bullets, just look at the picture of the Ares Vigorous Assault Cannon in page 31 of Arsenal it's just a big rifle.

Damm Tarantula you were faster.

You do need sarcasm tags, don't you?



It is less of a limitation for those allowing to split skillgroups at chargen. And you'd have to admit, sacrificing the pistols skill isn't worth it for most campaigns (and a character who has mastered assault rifles and cannons but never learned to fire a simple pistol is kind of a big leap).

On your point that Sniper Rifles have to be stronger than ACs to make Longarms a viable skill, I'd rather see shotguns be made more effective again. Post-errata they're practically useless against any slightly armored target

why PACs?
'cause they are one of the few kinds of weapons that don't look completely ridiculous like some childs toy in the hands of the bigger races . .
heck, even the barret rifle will probably look like a sports-rifle if carried by a troll . .

Upon closer inspection, i admit that it is not absolutely clear what "exotic" refers to.
With the given example, you can practically interpret it any way you want to (except for that the Fichetti Pain Inducer cannot get the mod, of course ).

However, i tended to read it as "anything that's not standard firearms ammunition", including AC rounds, laser power packs, bolas, gauss rounds, gyrojet rockets, grenades, mortar rounds, flamethrower tanks, rockets and missiles (anything i forgot?).
From a balancing point of view, though, reconsidering this might be interesting, as ACs could need a slight improvement.
As could lasers and gyrojet weapons.





Actually i don't.





Hm...yeah, agreed, both on the pistols and shotguns.
I miss my old dragonslaying friend SPAS-22 (both stat- and stylewise, it's probably the only weapon in A70 where the new picture looks worse than the one in Fields of Fire).

A Barrett M82 would make a dandy battle rifle for someone 8 feet tall and weighing 500lbs...

yes, i know . . did something like that once . . generally i used a nice little nifty tool called man at arms to build weapons with the SR3 Canon Companion Rules and had a Shotgun that did 11S/14D Damage, a Heavy Pistol with 10M/13S and an Assault-Rifle 10m/13S/16D and more ^^

I keep having this picture of an M82 PDW mod - a M82 .50cal with a barrel shortened to pisol length - in my head. But I don't know where I got that from... That would be what I'd call a troll handgun.

Heh, a troll using a SMG in .500 S&W...

An assault rifle in .338 Laupa...

Wow gues I hit a good one. Anyways it was suggested here and by other rpgers that if i don't like it change it. So I was thinking of adding a little more umph to the assault cannon genre. One thing i was thinking adding an armor reducing function to all ACs. For example when hit by an AC your armor value drops due to the huge impact it would make on your body. Live or die you lose armor because of it. So I was thinking have the armor value drop down by maybe half the net hits roller by the attacker. This is something a sniper rifle can not do, due to it's precision. What do you guys think?

Why not simply reduce armor by half before applying the AP value, as railguns do?

I think that he means it damages the armor, and reduces its effective rating for subsequent hits.

What if the armor is strong enough to convert it to stun? Does that stop it from damaging the armor?

Exactly what I'm getting at. I mean look at the bullets their huge.



I would think so since it's the armor value you roll to resist the damage.

If armor > damage, P damage is changed to S damage.

If the armor is strong enough to turn lethal to stun, shouldn't it be strong enough to hold up to the round also?

I would agree on the value of the damage from converting lethal to stun but I would think that since boht armor and body are used to resist damage that your body was strong enough to take one hit with your armor taking the brunt of the force.

Well, not necessarily. Just because none of it gets through to the meaty bits, it doesn't mean that it didn't dig out a hole, say, half-way through the armor.

For added amusement a Troll could get his Assault Cannon the Melee hardening upgrade and use it as a giant club. Probably does a pretty decent amount of damage given the size of the thing. (Okay not the easiest thing to take a swing at someone with, but you can bet they probably thought they'd be safer in melee for the brief moment before you flatten them with it.)

YES! Cancerning the weilding part just weld a bar to it that you can grip. easy pezzy!

Like, along the top of the barrel, and then he'd swing it like a bat'leth?

There's an idea you could use also mount a bar like a bayonet and have some more momentium.

YES an assult cannon with an underslung jeep please!

Acs get totally ripped off and shoudl be much harder to use and use the stats for some of the light on vehicle weapons, probably the lighest autocannon.

I though Assault Cannons counted a anti-vehicle, so did not convert the damage less then armour to stun, and treated hardened armour like regular armour?

Although it would be pricey for the ammo couldnt the rate of fire mod from Arsenal be used to make a burst firing or full auto assault cannon?

Did you read this topic at all