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Wesley Street
QUOTE (jklst14 @ Aug 17 2008, 07:23 PM) *
As have the number of Rockers. At times, I miss those 1st edition days when SR was brand new...


Not to get all nostalgic but I miss the Rocker archetype too. FanPro should have doctored up a sample rocker or hip-hop artist archetype in the BBB's color-plate sample pages. Shadowrun needs a bard.
CanRay
Orxploitation Hard Rocker!

Actually, I have an upcoming adventure for this.
Wesley Street
QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 18 2008, 10:09 AM) *
Orxploitation Hard Rocker!

Actually, I have an upcoming adventure for this.


Ehhhh... then you'd be musically defining what Orxploitation is and that could tick a few people off. In my mind Orxploitation is ork rap but that doesn't mean I'm right. If a sample archetype was created I'd like to see a plain-vanilla human tee-shirt and jeans musician. Sitting on a motorcycle. With a guitar in one hand a katana in the other!!! biggrin.gif
CanRay
Orxploitation is more of a Movement than a Genra. There's Orxploitation Sims after all.

I have stated that, in my game at least, Hollywood started with all the Blaxploitation Movies, and rarely even changed the names. Shaft is a Troll, for example.

So you have Orxploitation Rap, Orxploitation Heavy Metal, Orxploitation Grunge, Orxploitation Punk, Orxploitation Gothic, Orxploitation Industrial, and so on. The defining pieces is that it's full of "Rage against the oppression of Trogs everywhere" and the use of Or'Zet in places or in total.

In fact, some brands of "Beer" are Orxploitation as well. They're in Arsenal, Page 75.
Kermit the Trog
Why Shadowrun?

For the Fiction/Fluff. I remember in my early college days picking up "Never Deal with a Dragon" and instantly falling in love with the world presented. The BBB gave me more of the world to enjoy and then the "Seattle Sourcebook" was some of the best rpg writing I have ever seen. I have rarely been disappointed with the writing in a sourcebook from "Street Samurai Catalogue" through "Corporate Enclave." Unlike many I've loved all the subplots, including the IE's, Haberstam and the Horrors.

Why 4th ED.

Due to my love of trying different worlds and my groups policy of rotating GM's and Games every six months to a year between six GM's it's been a long time since I've played SR though I've kept up on the fluff books. The last Time I GMd it ran late because the ultimate adventure "Arcology Shutdown" came out late and I delayed ending it because of that. The last time I was in a SR campaign was just before 3rd ed came out. So now that one of our GMs has the SR bug again we're going 4th ed. Also I like that Decking/Hacking looks to finally be playable without having a real computer to keep track of things.

Yeah I miss the old subplots and I dislike the fact that the IE plot is being forgotten but time has always marched on in this universe. System failure was a nice finish to a bunch of favorite plot lines and the changes it engendered don't seem as unlikely as to be ludicrous. I hope we do get back to some of the dangling mysteries from the first editions and would like to see a larger shadow community in jackpoint but I can live with the current set up.


deek
Why Shadowrun?

Honestly, the SNES and Genesis video games got me into it, moreso the Genesis version (for obvious reasons). I remember a friend of mine renting the game and we each played through it, at an overnight stay, and loved it. We were both DnDers and decided to give SR a shot. I picked up the 1st edition book, we made characters and played for about a year.

It was a perfect compliment to DnD. When we wanted medieval fantasy, we went DnD. When we wanted future cyberpunk, SR.

Why 4th Edition?

I missed out on the whole 3rd edition run. 2nd edition came out right as we were ending our first set of characters, and back then, DnD was still king in our little group. Plus, with me heading off to college, not too much time for me to role-play. So, when I did get back into roleplaying, DnD3.5, and the campaign was coming to an end, I asked if anyone would be interested in SR (remembering the setting from my early gaming years). People were interested and it just so happened that 4th edition just came out.

So, getting in at a time when there was only one book, was so much more appealing then trying to spend several hundred dollars getting a whole SR3 catalogue...

SR4 has not disappointed!
tete
I have loved SR since I started with late (very late) 1e. I like the planing/puzzle solving parts of it. I absolutely love the fiction to (ok, mostly Nigel but there but there are more authors than just him that made it great)

I will play any edition (4e is odd but I'm getting the hang of it and it has several good improvements and a few WTF moments)

I prefer to run 2e base rules with some 1e, 3e, and now 4e thrown in where I think they can improve 2e, I also have a few minor tweeks of my own in there.
DocTaotsu
I think it's interesting to see the two different views of how the SR fluff "Should Be". Some view SR as an alternative universe where the 80's never died (much like the Fallout franchise has a 50's/Cold War that never went away) and some see SR as SOTA, taking into account all the new technology that's developed since SR first came out.

As a guy in his mid 20's I must admit that my nostalgia for the 80's is pretty low. As a traditionally raised sci-fi nerd (Heinlein, Clarke) who grew up on a steady diet of Stephenson, Gibson, and Sterling I tend to have a hard time identifying with the "Pink Mohawk" crowd. To me, the essence of cyberpunk is making me uncomfortable with the world my character inhabits but intrigued enough to keep exploring. RFID tags in my food, surveillance everywhere, a wireless information sphere that presses on me every second of everyday, all of those things kick me out of my comfortable 80's childhood and into a brave new world that I find both exhilarating and disturbing.

I'm not saying that those stories couldn't be told under earlier editions it's just that I personally needed the tech update to draw me back into SR.

YMMV as always.
CanRay
Mmmmmmmmmmmm... RFID Tags! It's what's for dinner!
Not of this World
QUOTE (DocTaotsu @ Aug 18 2008, 05:02 PM) *
I think it's interesting to see the two different views of how the SR fluff "Should Be". Some view SR as an alternative universe where the 80's never died (much like the Fallout franchise has a 50's/Cold War that never went away) and some see SR as SOTA, taking into account all the new technology that's developed since SR first came out.


Of all the Non-SR4 players I only saw one mention the 80s, and I'm not sure that response was 100% serious. I think if people were that fond of the 80s they'd be stuck playing 1st edition, but most of the non-SR4 players are playing 3rd with a few playing 2nd.

For me sticking with SR3 has nothing to do with the 80s (there is nothing really 80s about it).
DocTaotsu
Well that's the vibe I've gotten off some people who were unhappy with the setting update come 4th ed (in other conversation, not necessarily this thread). They charged that it wasn't dark enough and that it didn't maintain the well oiled atmosphere that had been established. I had one conversation where a person who was spectacularly unhappy with the update stated that SR shouldn't update because it's already it's own alternate universe. I didn't understand the allure of that until I started getting back into Fallout and realized that I enjoyed all the iconography from the 50-60's with all the wonkiness that went with it. I could see someone feel that way about the 80's as well.

The 80's thing could just be me projecting. People say pink mohawk I think 80's... it's what happens. Pink mohawk is a fairly well established play style, even if it means slightly different things to different people.

Rasumichin
I never perceived SR as particularly dark, with very few exceptions, such as Bug City.
And even then, upon closer inspection, there still was a pulpy tinge to the whole bug thing, in the way it harkened back to all the 1950s horror movies like The Fly or Tarantula (not that you can't turn that into something creepy and dark- just consider Cronenberg's remake of The Fly).

But besides the bugs...
Gritty, yes, but dark?
I recently stumbled upon the term bubblegum noir, though, that might fit the setting's mood.
DocTaotsu
QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Aug 18 2008, 08:37 PM) *
I never perceived SR as particularly dark, with very few exceptions, such as Bug City.
And even then, upon closer inspection, there still was a pulpy tinge to the whole bug thing, in the way it harkened back to all the 1950s horror movies like The Fly or Tarantula (not that you can't turn that into something creepy and dark- just consider Cronenberg's remake of The Fly).

But besides the bugs...
Gritty, yes, but dark?
I recently stumbled upon the term bubblegum noir, though, that might fit the setting's mood.


*Coughs*

Well that's what I think too but obviously other people have different interpretations. I've played exactly one truly dark SR game and I have to admit that it crossed the line between entertainment and being just... depressing.

The guy said dark but he might have well meant gritty or was using the terms interchangeably.

Frankly I've always been a fan of the idea that a game with elves and magic shouldn't take itself too seriously.
NERPS for everyone!
Rasumichin
QUOTE (DocTaotsu @ Aug 19 2008, 01:41 AM) *
Frankly I've always been a fan of the idea that a game that has elves and magic shouldn't take itself to goddamn seriously.
NERPS for everyone!


That's what i always say, too.
SR works just too good when you don't take the setting too seriously.
Not of this World
QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Aug 18 2008, 05:45 PM) *
That's what i always say, too.
SR works just too good when you don't take the setting too seriously.


I let my players decide generally. But I will admit one of my dissapointments with SR3 being shut down was that "Boo Scary Shadowrun Book of the Night" never got made.

I think that trying to be current with real world SOTA will only leave the RPG out of date. They need to imagine a future and go with it because anything else is going to be out of date from 6 months of the concept.
Cain
QUOTE
If they wanted to be really trendy, they'd have changed to a rules-light system, with a lot of power to the players. I don't think the wireless matrix was inserted just to be trendy. Since SR1 came out, SR kept adapting itself to the changes of the Real World. The wireless Matrix is one of these changes.
It's also because it wouldn't make any sense to any new player if their character was unable to connect wirelessly 60 years in the future. It was already difficult for old-timers to accept it.
Finally I also think it's about game-balance: in the days of a wired Matrix, even if the Matrix was already everywhere and controlling everything, its role was underplayed in most games I've played. With a wireless Matrix and AR you can't ignore it anymore.

The trends you describe are even newer, and are still catching on. I think they'll be the new trend, which we'll see in SR5. Additionally, SR4 is indeed "rules lighter" than previous editions; but so is D&D3.x and 4, as is the new White Wolf stuff. They still followed a trend, instead of setting one.

And Shadowrun didn't really "change with the times". The core concepts remained the same. Shadowrun metaculture might have gone through some changes, but that's part of being in a living world. A lot of basic principles did not change until SR4; and then, they either went through pointless name-changes or were knocked totally out of recognition.

As far as the "new player goes", I don't see people complaining that they can't make wireless internet connections when playing Star Wars. Or Buck Rogers. Or any one of a number of classic scfi-fi settings, which have nonetheless manage to endure. A setting is about *vision*, not up-to-date technology.

As far as game balance goes, the decking rules are still a mess, and the new wireless matrix is so omnipresent you can't actually play a shadowrunner without downplaying it significantly. The role the matrix played in your games was up to you; I've seen a lot of mixes in my time, so I couldn't say if it was underplayed. I know certain campaigns relied on it more heavily than others; and every published adventure I ever read had large sections to do with the matrix.
deek
Yeah, the wireless matrix was a gamble...and in theory it sounds really cool and something that would really work well. In practice, it really kinda sucks and makes everyone have to deal with it way too much... Decking/hacking was really one of my favorite concepts of the earlier editions and being a computer geek myself, was really loving the idea when we first started SR4.

But, a couple years into the game, I'd really rather have hardwired connections. I mean, keep the commlinks, but nix the wireless...its just too much of a nightmare in play and ends up with everyone just handwaving most matrix stuff anyways.

Kudos for taking a gamble, but when it doesn't work out, you need to admit that and move on, preferably correcting it.
Wesley Street
QUOTE (DocTaotsu @ Aug 18 2008, 08:02 PM) *
I think it's interesting to see the two different views of how the SR fluff "Should Be". Some view SR as an alternative universe where the 80's never died (much like the Fallout franchise has a 50's/Cold War that never went away) and some see SR as SOTA, taking into account all the new technology that's developed since SR first came out.

As a guy in his mid 20's I must admit that my nostalgia for the 80's is pretty low. As a traditionally raised sci-fi nerd (Heinlein, Clarke) who grew up on a steady diet of Stephenson, Gibson, and Sterling I tend to have a hard time identifying with the "Pink Mohawk" crowd. To me, the essence of cyberpunk is making me uncomfortable with the world my character inhabits but intrigued enough to keep exploring. RFID tags in my food, surveillance everywhere, a wireless information sphere that presses on me every second of everyday, all of those things kick me out of my comfortable 80's childhood and into a brave new world that I find both exhilarating and disturbing.


I straddle the line on your two views of how SR fluff "Should Be." I view it as an alternate world where technology grew at a pace that was both slower and faster than in the real world. But it was the Second Crash that kicked off the SOTA trend we see in the wireless Matrix, RFID tagged foodstuffs, etc. It keeps everything from 1st ed. cohesive in my mind but allows for more changes that reflect real-world technologies.

I'm 30 and my 80's nostalgia is low as well. I grew up on Clarke, Asimov, and CJ Cherryh (when I wasn't rotting it on Star Trek) and later Gibson, Sterling and Stephenson in the mid-90s. The whole pink mohawk thing feels like a holdover from how the late 1970s/early 1980s viewed the future, a la Escape From New York or Max Headroom and many of those technological trends are already in practice today. I could play SR even with the dated technology but the post-Crash 2.0 updates have made it feel more fresh to me.
paws2sky
QUOTE (DocTaotsu @ Aug 18 2008, 07:41 PM) *
Frankly I've always been a fan of the idea that a game with elves and magic shouldn't take itself too seriously.
NERPS for everyone!


QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Aug 18 2008, 07:45 PM) *
That's what i always say, too.
SR works just too good when you don't take the setting too seriously.


Gotta agree with you guys. I can't take SR too seriously or it rapidly looses its fun-factor.

I don't see a particular disconnect between the SR1's retro-80's mystique and SR4's wireless world though. Our group had long ago rationalized the differences in technology between the modern world (c. 1990's) and the awakened world (c. 2050's), so that wasn't a problem.

The only SR4 things I have yet to come to terms with is the 24/7/365 surveillance everywhere and the apparent proliferation of AIs.

-paws
Zartes
In my case its because I'd heard about it for ages, and then eventually tried it at Gen Con Oz... and I liked it. Its got a nice balance of crunchiness, speed, and simplicity. Our con GM only had to look at the rulebook three times over the whole session, and one of those was because somebody asked what a troll looked like.

Now, partly why I like it is because its, to be frank, a teensy bit silly. I mean, come on, elves and orks and dragons and mages along with riggers and AR and cybered up street sams... silly. Which is why I love it! Its got that tiny hint of Transmetropolitan flavour. Most of the other games out there take themselves just a bit too seriously.

Oh, and the awakened Australian fauna. How could I resist a game where drop bears are actually vampire koalas, and there are magical wombats that can come off better out of a head-on collision with a semi?

Edit: Oh, and I play 4e, having only just got into SR, although I really love the 3e Target: Awakened Lands book. I don't really get the 80s vibe thing, or the dark side of the setting... but then, I was 2 when the 80s ended, and I have a hard time taking anything too seriously. When I think of shadowrun, I think of a lot of careful planning, followed by swearing, fleeing and explosions.

And drop bears. biggrin.gif
Wesley Street
QUOTE (paws2sky @ Aug 19 2008, 10:58 AM) *
The only SR4 things I have yet to come to terms with is the 24/7/365 surveillance everywhere and the apparent proliferation of AIs.


That's the London of today: CCTV everywhere. And it's growing in the US. Plus, people stick naked pics of themselves on Facebook so, frankly, privacy isn't something we in the Western World seem to seek anymore. I don't see that as unbelievable, I see that as things to come!
CanRay
QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Aug 19 2008, 11:38 AM) *
That's the London of today: CCTV everywhere.

And look at how well they're going about it.
paws2sky
QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Aug 19 2008, 12:38 PM) *
That's the London of today: CCTV everywhere. And it's growing in the US. Plus, people stick naked pics of themselves on Facebook so, frankly, privacy isn't something we in the Western World seem to seek anymore. I don't see that as unbelievable, I see that as things to come!


Oh, I know. My wife and most of her friends are addicted to social networking sites. Showing off their art, pix from events, cheesy mug shots, etc. Bleh. Voyeurism Exhibitionism as a cultural fad trend... it kind of disturbs me, really.

Anyway... I was really referring to the issues with trying to be a shadowrunner with all this surveillance. I think Frank Trollman, in his alternate matrix rules, put forth the notion that while there's constant surveillance, they're no way to process all that video, much less store it for any meaningful length of time.

-paws
BullZeye
Why Shadowrun?

I found years ago an article about a RPG where one can make a cyborg-mage-street samurai all in one character (SR 2ed I guess?). Back then I didn't want to put any money on such a game as the others on my PnP group weren't interested. Few years after I stumbled upon a book: Headhunters. That was the final spike and after managing to read it in 2-3 years after getting the book, I knew I had to get the game.

Why 4th Edition?

After such long wait, the 4th ed was just on the bring of coming out of printers so I waited a bit more and ordered it right away.
cryptoknight
QUOTE (Not of this World @ Aug 18 2008, 06:16 PM) *
Of all the Non-SR4 players I only saw one mention the 80s, and I'm not sure that response was 100% serious. I think if people were that fond of the 80s they'd be stuck playing 1st edition, but most of the non-SR4 players are playing 3rd with a few playing 2nd.

For me sticking with SR3 has nothing to do with the 80s (there is nothing really 80s about it).


Nobody sticks with 1st ed... Variable Staging + Armor from Drek = not so good...

We loved 1st ed.. but as soon as 2nd came out... it went into the corner to remain there until I threw my 1st ed books that I couldn't convert or didn't need anymore away.
Wesley Street
QUOTE (paws2sky @ Aug 19 2008, 01:23 PM) *
Anyway... I was really referring to the issues with trying to be a shadowrunner with all this surveillance. I think Frank Trollman, in his alternate matrix rules, put forth the notion that while there's constant surveillance, they're no way to process all that video, much less store it for any meaningful length of time.


That was actually covered in Runner's Companion or Unwired under "Staying Off the Grid". There's lots of data coming in from all the cameras but not enough eyeballs processing it all, making it difficult for law enforcement to track shadowrunners. It suggests portable jammers and watching for RFID tags amongst other techniques.
Kingboy
QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Aug 18 2008, 10:21 AM) *
With a guitar in one hand a katana in the other!!! biggrin.gif


Gotta love syncronicity...my Pandora radio stream was playing something by the Red Elvises just as I was reading your post. smile.gif I need to get me a copy of that movie sometime, if I can ever find it again.


QUOTE (paws2sky @ Aug 19 2008, 10:58 AM) *
The only SR4 things I have yet to come to terms with is the 24/7/365 surveillance everywhere and the apparent proliferation of AIs.


You need to start reading more Bruce Schneier then, at least to wrap your head around the surveillance bit.


QUOTE (paws2sky @ Aug 19 2008, 02:23 PM) *
Anyway... I was really referring to the issues with trying to be a shadowrunner with all this surveillance. I think Frank Trollman, in his alternate matrix rules, put forth the notion that while there's constant surveillance, they're no way to process all that video, much less store it for any meaningful length of time.


Actually, that's one of the better things about Unwired, they actually mention much the same thing. Sure, there's cameras and sensors everywhere, but not enough cops/agents/spiders/etc to look at them all, and certainly not all the time. Like much of running the shadows, it basically comes down to making sure your nose pokes out less than the other guys. Don't give them a reason to go looking for you, and they probably won't notice you, especially if they have better targets to go after first (which brings up a second point of good running...misdirection smile.gif )

And yes, I've read all the way through Unwired now, so expect my already wired-security paranoid Face to be making some purchases for the rest of the group here shortly. smile.gif
paws2sky
QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Aug 19 2008, 03:41 PM) *
That was actually covered in Runner's Companion under "Staying Off the Grid". There's lots of data coming in from all the cameras but not enough eyeballs processing it all, making it difficult for law enforcement to track shadowrunners. It suggests portable jammers and watching for RFID tags amongst other techniques.


I still haven't had a chance to sit down with that book. Unlike Unwired, I'm pretty jazzed about RC. I'm waiting until the dead tree edition hits my FLGS (and I have the money for it and Unwired).



To the original question (which I seem to have glossed over)...

Why Shadowrun?

I was hooked from the first time my buddy and I sat down with the blue hardcover. It was about this time of year, just after his birthday, either '89 or '90, I don't recall which. We poured over that book all day. The mix of magic and technology really grabbed my imagination. The Burned-Out Mage, in all his gimp-tastic glory, was, and remains, my favorite archetype.

Which Edition?

1e hooked me, rules wonkiness aside.

I didn't really play SR regularly until 2e though. And man, did I play the hell out of 2nd edition - All my favortie characters came from that time period. My deranged Shark Shaman, Sanguis. My table-hopping Decker, Lynx. My buddies' characters Talbot (combat mage), Cadillac (ork street samurai), Corper (face), Lt. (elf phys ad), Croc (Gator Shaman), and many, many others. Ah... nostalgia.

I stopped playing before 3e came out and didn't pick up again until after 4e. So, I missed everything that had to do with 3e. When I started my gaming group up again, I thought I'd try 3e - it looked good, a lot like 2e, but with some difference that I thought I would like. As it turns out, I really disliked the system. Almost enough that I gave up on SR... again. No one, not even the couple folks from the good old days, wanted to go back to 2e...

Before I gave up on SR though, a friend of a friend loaned me the 4e book. I was pretty skeptical, especially about the wireless matrix, etc. Eventually though, I was hooked again.

So, now its 4e all the way. (Though I'd still play 2e, if I could ever find someone to GM.)

-paws
TheGothfather
Why Shadowrun
I love the setting, and have since 2nd Edition. It was something different from D&D (looks like a trend in this thread), and it allowed for non-heroic stories. Also, it had both style and substance, unlike CP2020.

Why SR4
Like others, I've found it to be the most streamlined and coherent Shadowrun ruleset so far. I wasn't a big fan of 3rd ed, and as much as I love a lot of the SR2 stuff, it was broken in a lot of ways.

All that being said, I'm not sure how much longer I'll be playing with the SR* rules. As much as I love the setting, I have issues with the behaviors that the system rewards - those being combat optimization, bookkeeping and "winning". So, I'm going to steal the setting as-is. Ironically, this means I'll probably still be buying the books, so I guess it shouldn't be a big deal to the devs.
Skip
I got hooked in '89 too. The combination of fantasy characters in a cyberpunk, dystopian world setting, complete with hints of noir and arcane horror hooked me from the BBB. Of course, having to handle variable staging and the 1st ed armor led me to learn how to cuff things as a GM, as well as come up with house rules to handle everything. I actually really like the concept of variable staging, but it is better suited for a computer game mechanic, than something to deal with on the fly.

I liked and still like that there is no artificial leveling or character limitations. Mages can wear amour, what a concept. I loved the settings and the ability of the system to handle Hong Kong movie style random violence without repercussion at one extreme, and still be used as a tactical ops game. Granted, you tended to have to house rules whichever edition you were running, but I had long left any problem with that behind.

I don't play much anymore, and while I have some of the 4th Ed source books I have yet to play it - chalk it up to 3 kids and a real job. I do dislike the seeming lack of concern for some of the depth of world that Shadowrun has developed over the years, but I realize it can be a bit daunting to a new player.

I miss the rocker too, Shadowrun is the one game I always thought needed to be co-GMed. One GM to handle the players, one to handle the video, networking and DJ duties. Because Shadowrun is one game I really think would play best with every player on their own laptop. And the music was always a big part of the game to me, we did lots of meeting in loud clubs, at raves, in industrial sites, or at an airport. Besides nothing broke the tension of a an op more than playing elevator muzak as the PCs went up an elevator.

Also I remember seeing the Matrix trailer and saying "Cool - wired reflexes 3". cyber.gif
Skip
[sorry double post]
Cain
QUOTE
I liked and still like that there is no artificial leveling or character limitations. Mages can wear amour, what a concept. I loved the settings and the ability of the system to handle Hong Kong movie style random violence without repercussion at one extreme, and still be used as a tactical ops game. Granted, you tended to have to house rules whichever edition you were running, but I had long left any problem with that behind.

Unfortunately, this is no longer the case. There's no level cap; but there are very strict attribute and skill caps that come into play. This doesn't help balance the game, since there's so many different ways of modifying the dice pool, you can still get to 30+ dice if you care to bother. All it does it put an artificial and arbitrary cap on how skilled you can be; the rest is a matter of munchkining out modifiers.
Synner667
QUOTE (Skip @ Aug 19 2008, 10:55 PM) *
I got hooked in '89 too. The combination of fantasy characters in a cyberpunk, dystopian world setting, complete with hints of noir and arcane horror hooked me from the BBB. Of course, having to handle variable staging and the 1st ed armor led me to learn how to cuff things as a GM, as well as come up with house rules to handle everything. I actually really like the concept of variable staging, but it is better suited for a computer game mechanic, than something to deal with on the fly.


Apart from the wellknown Shadowrun, there have been several fantasy/high-tech cross over games...
...But mainly RPGs that didn't do very well and were multi-genre, rather than a single world with fantasy/hightech [I distinctly remember adverts in White Dwarf for an RPG with Elves using machine guns and launching nukes]...
...And most of the multi-genre RPGs [TORG, HERO, GURPS] allowed, if not encouraged, crossover characters.


QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 20 2008, 01:11 AM) *
Unfortunately, this is no longer the case. There's no level cap; but there are very strict attribute and skill caps that come into play. This doesn't help balance the game, since there's so many different ways of modifying the dice pool, you can still get to 30+ dice if you care to bother. All it does it put an artificial and arbitrary cap on how skilled you can be; the rest is a matter of munchkining out modifiers.


Personally, some sort of cap can be ok-ish [but usually that should be after lots of playing and development]...
...But the fact that those caps apply at character generation because it's so easy to get to that level of ability is a serious design flaw.

After all, if you can effectively max-out at character generation, what's the point of playing ??
You can't develop much further.
ravensmuse
Why Shadowrun?

Bugs. Changelings. Year of the Comet. President Dunkelzahn. Lofwyr. AIs. Technomancers. Renraku Arcology.

Basically, my uncle had a few of the sourcebooks lying around his room (and a few of the BT ones too) and I just got to reading them and fell in love with the world. I somehow got a copy of the 2nd edition core into my hands and read from there - system was too confusing for a young kid, so I read the fluff and tried to stumble my way through the rules. If I remember correctly, I tried to run it exactly once, gave up, and went back 2e DnD.

Why SR4?

Well, I played a lot of oWoD in the day...

The system has a strong core mechanic (ability + skill vs. target number) that makes it easy to adjucate on the fly. Sams, mages, and hackers can all work at the same time during combat, focused on different things. Magical traditions don't use different rule sets for different traditions. Technomancers. New shiny 'ware toys. Wireless matrix that I don't have to draw up maps just for the hacker.

At first I would have said that the rules kind of lost the "world" of Shadowrun; I actually complained when I first got the book that they'd butchered the history lesson stuff at the opening of the core, but it's all still there. I love that they still put the books out as documents posted on a runner message board, with the runner commentary still right where it should be. I love the news feeds that they put in the sidebars. I even love some of the new characters they've got commenting and posting - Netcat & the technomancer guru (cannot remember his name at the moment).

I do have to say that I have started going back and picking up earlier edition books. I just got my copy of Bug City at Gencon last week (and lord do I want to run a game set in it) and I came *this* close to grabbing Shadowbeat (damnable budget). But what I especially have to say I like about Shadowrun is just that - they cut out some of the "character" of the game to make it easier for newbies to get, but there's still enough references and call backs that if you give a newbie one of the older books, it'll still make sense to them.
Skip
QUOTE (Synner667 @ Aug 20 2008, 02:29 AM) *
Apart from the wellknown Shadowrun, there have been several fantasy/high-tech cross over games...
...But mainly RPGs that didn't do very well and were multi-genre, rather than a single world with fantasy/hightech [I distinctly remember adverts in White Dwarf for an RPG with Elves using machine guns and launching nukes]...
...And most of the multi-genre RPGs [TORG, HERO, GURPS] allowed, if not encouraged, crossover characters.
I agree, but most of those games came out at around the same time as Shadowrun. I'd throw CORPS in there too. Quite frankly I liked the literary style of the rule book. FASA in the first edition really went all out to give you the feel for the system in the core rule book, as opposed to reading like a textbook. I liked it and thought some of those books should be held up as a paradigm of good rule book design. I mean I read the first virtual realities cover to cover and never had any intention of RPing a matrix run, especially in first or second edition.

QUOTE (Synner667 @ Aug 20 2008, 02:29 AM) *
QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 19 2008, 07:11 PM) *
Unfortunately, this is no longer the case. There's no level cap; but there are very strict attribute and skill caps that come into play. This doesn't help balance the game, since there's so many different ways of modifying the dice pool, you can still get to 30+ dice if you care to bother. All it does it put an artificial and arbitrary cap on how skilled you can be; the rest is a matter of munchkining out modifiers.
Personally, some sort of cap can be ok-ish [but usually that should be after lots of playing and development]...
...But the fact that those caps apply at character generation because it's so easy to get to that level of ability is a serious design flaw.

After all, if you can effectively max-out at character generation, what's the point of playing ?? You can't develop much further.

Well, with attributes, that is the way it was in first ed. Six was the unmodified cap, and you could only raise it one level ever after creation. I didn't particularly like that either. As for the skill limitations, I would think there is a certain amount of sense in that as well. After all each level is supposed to represent a level of proficiency in the skill. There should be a point where you cannot learn any more about something, not and have that learning have any practical effect. Where that point is for a given skill can vary, but you can always use house rules to get around limitation that feel artificial to you.

As to the character generation system - I understand why they use build points instead of Karma, but really the only way to make it make character generation fair is to use a karma-based system. This assumes that there are not other limitation on the generation that would skew the design, like limiting attribute improvement after character generation. I could go on for a long time on this, but I already have, many years ago. I'll edit and post the thread if I can find it in the archives.
Wesley Street
QUOTE (Skip @ Aug 19 2008, 05:55 PM) *
I miss the rocker too, Shadowrun is the one game I always thought needed to be co-GMed. One GM to handle the players, one to handle the video, networking and DJ duties.

And my players wonder why I'm so frazzled half the time. biggrin.gif

QUOTE (Skip @ Aug 19 2008, 05:55 PM) *
Because Shadowrun is one game I really think would play best with every player on their own laptop. And the music was always a big part of the game to me, we did lots of meeting in loud clubs, at raves, in industrial sites, or at an airport. Besides nothing broke the tension of a an op more than playing elevator muzak as the PCs went up an elevator.

I have two laptops (one for visuals via LCD projector and one for everything else), a boombox, a deck of CDs and my notepads at my "station". I sit on the floor at a Queen Anne coffee table while my players sit at a long kitchen table that I drag into my living room. The projector displays setting maps on the wall along with PC and NPC icons.

I would kill for a combat management program so I wouldn't have to remember turn orders. smile.gif
Skip
Ooooh, I'd love to play (or DJ) one of your games. Too bad it is a bit of a drive .... frown.gif
tete
Why I love 2e

So do to the idea that some of us gronards are stuck in the 80s I decided to write why I prefer 2e over every other edition. I personally don't buy into VR2.0 and the extra rules that came after the main book so my 2e games are more of a 1.5e game. There were holes in 2e (some major ones) but all the editions have problems, I will try to stick to what I like about 2e though and not what I dislike about 3e or 4e because there things I don't like about 2e to.

mechanics

You had skills like firearms and although you could concentrate and specialize into pistols or ares predator. The non-combat monkeys didn't care and spent there 2 or 3 skill points in firearms and called it good. I like that you could just look at your skill and know thats how many dice you get to, no trying to figure out what your pool is.
Combat Pool allowed for the idea of a stance to come into play, you could decide how offensive or defensive you wanted to be
Attributes didn't do a lot (there by making it a skill focused game), even what would become your Spell Pool in 3e was just your sorcery skill in 2e, each spell worked as its own individual skill.
Initiative, people bitched about not cyberware guys never getting to go in combat because it was over by their turn and while from that perspective it was a good change in 3e it doesn't fit the fiction. The razorguy can't come running across the bar and slash up 3 foes with his hand razors before they draw their pistols. For the record I don't use 2e or 3e initiative system I have my own thing that is pretty far removed from both.
Decking - while not perfect there was less of the mini game, I think they could have shrunk it even more by removing the nodes entirely and just doing the tests against a single system but it was by far the leased "time for everyone else to get a pizza" of the systems just because there was less stuff in it.
Metahuman A (or C option)- you had to give alot up to not be human, kinder GMs could let them take C.
Minor bitch about 4e (sorry but its one of the reasons I like 2e better) they added a purchased attribute for physical and mental but no social? I know traditionally charisma falls under mental but if your going to give an extra one to physical you should give a new social to compliment so rather than 8:1 you have 4:1, having only 1 social attribute out of 8 attributes makes the game focus on the combat and metal bits and not the social aspects. 6:1 was already bad enough of a split IMHO
All in all there were just less rules(while still in no way what we would concider rules light today), it didn't try to account for every possible situation.

fluff

This is where 2e shines, the talkback and add campaign style writing. The street sam catalog (while wasting alot of space on each page) reads like a catalog and you have reviews from people "this gun sucks, jamed on me 12 times last week alone!" When I first opened up the cannon companion I was horrified to find a weapon book with tons of stats and none of my precious fluff. The older I get the less I care about stats a system should be simple enough that you can make up reasonable stats on the fly if your given some reasonable fluff. "This small pistol shoots strait and has never failed me" or "This large pistol is a hunk of junk the slide constantly jams, don't get it wet." is what I want from my "gun" book I don't care about the 9M or 5P, ranges or anything else. If I have a system like say nWOD where I know everything is going to be rated 1-5 I can say the small pistol gets 2 dice and the large pistol that jams gets 3 dice but 1s subtract successes.

The 2e books are just filled with fluff, even if some of the writing or art isnt as good as 4e the shear amount of fluff in each book gives life to the world and fills my head with ideas. Wireless or Wired, Ghost in the Shell or Neuromancer it does not matter I like both, just give me a ton of fluff and keep the rules out of the way of the story.
Rasumichin
I agree with most of your points and would add the skill web as an advantage of older editions in general.
That's something i really miss.
SR4 always gives me the impression that characters are a bit lacking as far as skills are concerned (but then, my fualt if i play mages generated with BP all the time...).

There's one point i'd liek to comment on, though :

QUOTE (tete @ Aug 20 2008, 03:42 PM) *
Minor bitch about 4e (sorry but its one of the reasons I like 2e better) they added a purchased attribute for physical and mental but no social? I know traditionally charisma falls under mental but if your going to give an extra one to physical you should give a new social to compliment so rather than 8:1 you have 4:1, having only 1 social attribute out of 8 attributes makes the game focus on the combat and metal bits and not the social aspects. 6:1 was already bad enough of a split IMHO


Note that Intuition and Willpower can also be considered social attributes, as they are used to resist social skills.
In a way, they are to social interaction what Reaction and Constitution are to combat.

In fact, social interaction is as much a crucial part of the game as ever, probably even more so.

The new connection system is great, especially with the new rules from RC.
Yeah, i know, most of it comes from older editions, but it has been expanded on.

Also, there's tons of social qualities to choose from.

Then there's also social adepts.
I know they could be considered a downside of SR3-4 as well, given the insane dicepool size they can amass, but on the other hand, it has become extremely easy to become the group's face and still have a secondary role to fill.

All in all, social interaction has, IMO, become more and more important mechanics wise, at least on an absolute scale.

I really don't see SR4 being focussed more on other aspects of the game.
Jaid
the reason mental and physical attributes got further broken down is because there was just too much stuff jammed into two specific stats. it has nothing to do with a focus on combat, and everything to do with the fact that under 4th edition's core mechanic (stat + skill), the earlier edition's quickness and intelligence stats were simply massively overpowered. splitting them in two was the result of so much stuff being done with the unseparated attributes that simply putting your points into those 2 stats covered just about everything you might need.

even with the split, agility, reaction, logic, and intuition are all valuable attributes to choose. it's just no longer a matter of automatically putting the max allowed into those 2 stats and then moving on from there.

logic/intuition and agility/reaction were born purely because quickness and intelligence did way too much. charisma, on the other hand, affects quite a few things (in fact, shadowrun is probably the only game i've seen where i would say they've actually successfully made charisma an unappealing dump stat) but not so much that it needed to be split in two.
aussie elf
The choice was easy for me. I started out on AD&D about 13 years ago and thought it was a lot of fun. I read the rules and saw things like "mages can't wear armor and cast spells unless it's elven chain mail." and "elves/drawves can't be paladins." I just thought that was it, now I do know they changed a lot of that in later editions but when I got my hands on Shadowrun 2nd edition and saw you could do anything you wanted I was hooked. I've kept up with shadowrun as new editions came out and I've liked them all and never looked back.
Daddy's Little Ninja
3rd ed. We have all the books for that (and first and 2nd) and it works well. Since most of us are now married with kids, in my case one running around #2 due in Feb, we do not have the extra money to buy them all over again. for a system that we felt was not broken. snow fox bought 4th ed's core book just to keep up with the world development and showed it off. We feel the rules are more complex and not worth the added problems for a system that we were happy with.
So
1) cost
2) ain't broke
No need for us to 'fix' to 4th.
Prime Mover
1st Edition One of our "new game" every year games. This one caught on like gangbusters and players loved it. The beginging of an era so to speak.

2nd Edition This one was a nearly daily game that spawned Shadowrunners and exploits that still echo around the table with every session. Had two copies of second ed one soft cover held together with duct tape and dreams and a hard cover that looked like it had been dragged behind a bus for a year. When I as a GM really came into my own with story development and player interaction. Great plot lines and terrific background this edition I think really reason we still play SR today.

3rd Edition Got the soft cover had some other games in spotlight at that time and lost few of old time players......and this was the dark period of my Everquest addiction. By the time I returned to SR and my regular group stabalized 4th edition was on the horizon.

4th Edition Has reignited the spark that got us involved in first and devoted in second. I have old and new players and recently I think I've come close to recapturing that old SR feeling and story flow. I for one am pleased with the changes that 4th has brought us. Shadowrun has always been about growing time passing in game as well as out, things shouldn't stand still. I try and explain things to my new players like this. Life and computing from first edition is like comparing life and computing in the 70's compared to 00's. But just like life the things change the more they stay the same. So SR is still SR and looking forward to having meta plot moving again like were expecting for 09.
Icephisherman
Why Shadowrun?

Back in the 90's I got a hold of the sega genesis game and it got me interested. Every other game at the time was "shoot monster, get loot" until I got Shadowrun the game. Playing a professional criminal intrigued me and I went to learn more.

Fast forward through about seven books later I was hooked, especially after reading Wolf and Raven. Having been born in Seattle there was also a sense of familiarity having been a local at one time, I'm still familiar with a lot of the places and mannerisms of the locals which you'll never really get out of any source book.

I'm a political science major and a dystopian future appeals to me, I love technology, I'm a lover of nature and I love studying the occult. So by the time I actually got to the game it was as if it had been tailor made for me. I'm sad that I didn't stumble across it sooner.

edit:

Fourth edition.

I tried third but it confused my group so we went to GURPS instead. When fourth came out I latched onto it and have loved it ever since. Also, fourth edition was when I actually got serious about DM'ing shadowrun so they were my first books. I have three books and three pdf files. And those files are clean scans so I can easily run off my laptop for ease of use.
Not of this World
Ice,

which edition do you play and why?
tete
QUOTE (Skip @ Aug 20 2008, 02:49 PM) *
Well, with attributes, that is the way it was in first ed. Six was the unmodified cap, and you could only raise it one level ever after creation. I didn't particularly like that either.


I believe the "sky was the limit" on attributes in 1e & 2e for modified cap. But maybe you mean boosting it with karma and not gear. Of course I haven't played 1e over 10 years. Also back in 1e & 2e it was common to have 6s in every attribute because they were cheap to raise (they didn't do a lot but good bang for the karma), I liked that 3e made them more expensive but it looks like with 4e at x3 for cost we are back to everyone has 6s in all attributes again frown.gif

QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Aug 21 2008, 01:35 AM) *
Note that Intuition and Willpower can also be considered social attributes, as they are used to resist social skills.
In a way, they are to social interaction what Reaction and Constitution are to combat.


good point, I just wish there were more skill bits I guess. For physical you get agility, strength, and reaction, mental gets logic and intuition, social gets... charisma.
Jaid
QUOTE (tete @ Aug 21 2008, 01:26 PM) *
good point, I just wish there were more skill bits I guess. For physical you get agility, strength, and reaction, mental gets logic and intuition, social gets... charisma.

your social skills are also used for defending against social skills, and they use other attributes in such cases.
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