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Cain
Okay, someone asked me to bring this into a thread all it's own, so here goes.

After looking at the Chase Combat rules, I've come to the conclusion that they're basically useless, and I want to fold some of their better functions into normal combat.

Why are the Chase rules useless? They don't do a good job at vehicle combat. It has a different timeframe which makes adding in the actions of passengers problematic; the rules can't handle more than two vehicles, and the rules don't acknowledge things like being dramatically faster. It allows you to instantly teleport from long range to within 5 meters (the "Picard Maneuver") regardless of speed.

What do I like? I like the fact that distances are abstracted, and that you can Cut Off and/or Break Away. I don't like having to calculate relative speeds, and I think the rules for a Cut Off is pretty elegant. I like the concept of being able to Break Away with a simple set of rolls, but I don't like the fact that it takes a minimum of four minutes to do so.

I'll give one example, which is admittedly extreme, but based on a real story. We're in a modified sports car, and being chased by go-gangers. Now, our car is much faster than their bikes-- we're at a Speed of 300. Assuming they're on racing bikes, and not choppers, their top speed would be 200. They're probably not even going that fast.

We make our opposed roll for Chase Combat. Now, each driver gets to roll; we outscore most of them, but one biker does better than we do. He gets to set the range for the combat, and chooses Short Range. So, they just pulled off the "Picard Maneuver", and teleported within a few meters of us.

Next, the passengers act. While everyone else is taking potshots at the gangers, I'm calling my bound Force 10 spirit. I have it use the movement power on us. 300 meters/turn x10 = 3,600 kph, or Mach 4.6. vegm.gif

Now, what really happened was that the GM simply handwaved our escape, and we got away. But this is an example, so if we followed the rules, here's what would have happened:

By the rules, a vehicle that exceeds its base Speed will suffer whatever penalties the GM feels is appropriate. We're going so fast, you'd expect a hefty penalty. But that means we're less likely to succeed on the opposed test, so the gang manages to keep up, despite the fact we're going more than four times the speed of sound. We have to win three rounds in a row, then make a Break Away test on the fourth round. Of course, by that time, we'll have traveled 150 miles; the bikes wouldn't have even gone one tenth of that.

So, there's one example for you. I can come up with others. But basically, what I'd like to see is vehicle rules that are compatible with normal combat, but still allow for abstract distances and abstract actions. What do you all think?
Tarantula
Just because your speed is 300 doesn't mean you're travelling at top speed 100% of the time.
Synner667
Gee, yet another thing broken in SR v4 sarcastic.gif

Offhand, I can't remem how chases were done in SR1-3 [and I don't have my rulebooks to hand]...
...But if they worked ok, can't you "convert" those rules ??
The Amazing Mysto
I found myself running into this same problem getting ready for a run planned for this weekend.

The setup is that the runners are hired to escort a convoy of Zugmachines to protect them from a go-gang.
The bikes are so much faster they should run circles around the trucks.

The difference in the opposing dice pools on the vehicle test between the truckers and bikers are about six dice.
This should give the bikers the advantage, but in a situation where the pools are much closer I could see it becoming unrealistic.

So I thought for every 5 or 10 meters a vehicle was traveling faster than the opponent, to give him a +1 die pool modifier.
What I didn't think of was your "Picard Maneuver" this could really pose a problem.
Possible solution would be if they won the vehicle test they could only one change their range by one.

Not a perfect solution, but still keeps it abstract for easy play.
Aaron
QUOTE (The Amazing Mysto @ Sep 8 2008, 01:09 PM) *
The setup is that the runners are hired to escort a convoy of Zugmachines to protect them from a go-gang.
The bikes are so much faster they should run circles around the trucks.

What's the terrain like? I've only been in two high-speed chases in my life, but in both cases the top speeds of the vehicles involved were not a factor. I'm not saying it never could be, but that's my (limited) experience.
Ryu
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 8 2008, 08:01 PM) *
I'll give one example, which is admittedly extreme, but based on a real story. We're in a modified sports car, and being chased by go-gangers. Now, our car is much faster than their bikes-- we're at a Speed of 300. Assuming they're on racing bikes, and not choppers, their top speed would be 200. They're probably not even going that fast.

We make our opposed roll for Chase Combat. Now, each driver gets to roll; we outscore most of them, but one biker does better than we do. He gets to set the range for the combat, and chooses Short Range. So, they just pulled off the "Picard Maneuver", and teleported within a few meters of us.


If you are going 300 in an urban area (non-highway), you are facing some nice tests just to survive. Thats a driving test threshold of up to 7, called each round. With some turns and assorted break/acceleration phases, bikes look pretty good all of a sudden. Then you have not an "instant" jump in distance, but a change of combat distance over the course of two minutes.
The Amazing Mysto
Aaron

It's an open two lane highway. A bridge here and there, but really no place for ducking and diving.

Since it is pretty much a straight shot, I think in this instance vehicle speed would be a factor
Tarantula
QUOTE (The Amazing Mysto @ Sep 8 2008, 12:27 PM) *
Aaron

It's an open two lane highway. A bridge here and there, but really no place for ducking and diving.

Since it is pretty much a straight shot, I think in this instance vehicle speed would be a factor


Well, you have to go from not moving to going 300m/turn. They jumped you at some point, at which point chase combat started. If they kept winning initiative, then they were able to keep you from accelerating to your top speed, and kept you where they wanted you.
WeaverMount
Really this whole thing boils down to how each table uses RAW. RAW is not a simulation, at all. In fact it only passably models the intended crux of the game, and corner cases spiral off into absurdity shamefully quickly. I think most everyone here has the can 'look a head' enough moves to see more or less the RAW out come of running a given mechanic, and if the table is focused on telling a story it will be very obvious how modify or hand wave a situation.
sunnyside
First of all the chase scene I'd like to have is all of us running down whatever writer thought though movement power was great RAW. Maybe not to hurt them. Just to get them to detox before it's too late.

Moving on, unless you're out on the salt flats or a totally congestion free highway you aren't going to be able to use that speed of 300. That's why they abstract it. And I don't think there's anywhere in Seattle except maybe some old straighaways in the barrens where you get the combination of straight roads and low traffic. Maybe some choice roads at 4am.

However one thing I do let my players do instead of the regular rules is if appropriate make manuvers or attempt speeds and then they and anyone following them have to make the appropriate rolls. This method can be much faster though riskier.

So for example lets say you got on the highway at 1am and said you wanted to accelerate to 300 mph and ditch the gangers. The gangers wouldn't be able to follow, but I'd then make a call based on road conditions and traffic as to what threshold you need to roll to not crash in the process.




Ryu
QUOTE (The Amazing Mysto @ Sep 8 2008, 09:27 PM) *
Aaron

It's an open two lane highway. A bridge here and there, but really no place for ducking and diving.

Since it is pretty much a straight shot, I think in this instance vehicle speed would be a factor


No chance to keep up for the pursuer = no chase combat. Barely a chance to keep up = massive penalties. Fail three times in a row = you lost.
Cain
QUOTE
Offhand, I can't remem how chases were done in SR1-3 [and I don't have my rulebooks to hand]...
...But if they worked ok, can't you "convert" those rules ??

Good gods, hell no! I have a bottomless hatred of the Maneuver score. I think competitive basket weaving would have been a better mechanic. Jon Szetzo is a nice guy, but he needs a serious lesson in how to write game mechanics. I mean, you could spend forever calculating a score that ended up being meaningless. When I say that SR4 is better than the maneuver score, I'm not saying much of anything-- I prefer Synnibar to the Maneuver Score, and FATAL is only a few spots down from it.
QUOTE
What I didn't think of was your "Picard Maneuver" this could really pose a problem.
Possible solution would be if they won the vehicle test they could only one change their range by one.

That pretty much only slows down the problem, it doesn't stop it.
QUOTE
If you are going 300 in an urban area (non-highway), you are facing some nice tests just to survive. Thats a driving test threshold of up to 7, called each round. With some turns and assorted break/acceleration phases, bikes look pretty good all of a sudden. Then you have not an "instant" jump in distance, but a change of combat distance over the course of two minutes.

As you pointed out, that's already been factored into the rolls you need just to survive. It seems highly unfair that you penalize them again for going fast, when you're trying to get away. As for the change in distance, it is "instant" in that they suddenly jump from long range at the end of last turn, to short range at the start of the new turn.

Now, I don't mind the concept that people should be penalized for going fast, especially in tight areas. What I don't agree with is that it doesn't help them get away. Once you make the roll, you've successfully held your speed. There should be an advantage for doing that, as opposed to no bonus or even a penalty. They've been penalized once, why do it again?
QUOTE
So for example lets say you got on the highway at 1am and said you wanted to accelerate to 300 mph and ditch the gangers. The gangers wouldn't be able to follow, but I'd then make a call based on road conditions and traffic as to what threshold you need to roll to not crash in the process.

That's more or less what happened. However, just to be pedantic, I should point out that it's 300 meters per turn, not 300 MPH. I think 300 meters/turn equals about 220 MPH. Still way the hell too fast for most road conditions. As far as jumping to Mach 4.6, that really happened. A Force 10 spirit with the Movement power can really give you a boost. nyahnyah.gif

At any event, what the GM did was use the Rocket Booster rules to determine the damage to the car. We had to make several rolls to keep from crashing, then the Turbo Boost roll to not splatter. Personally, I thought it all worked out. But I also dislike handwaving, and I'd like some solid house rules to implement.
QUOTE
Really this whole thing boils down to how each table uses RAW. RAW is not a simulation, at all. In fact it only passably models the intended crux of the game, and corner cases spiral off into absurdity shamefully quickly. I think most everyone here has the can 'look a head' enough moves to see more or less the RAW out come of running a given mechanic, and if the table is focused on telling a story it will be very obvious how modify or hand wave a situation.

That's exactly it, though. You shouldn't have to handwave a chase scene. I dislike GM fiat in the first place; even when you do it right (e.g., without upsetting anyone) you're filling in for a hole in the rules. The whole point of this thread is to find a way to make vehicle combat work.
Tarantula
Way to completely skip my post.

I don't think you were just cruising down the street at absolute top speed. If you were why? When you weren't being chased? Assuming that you weren't screaming down the street at top speed...

"They" didn't pull off anything, the one bike did, by outmaneuvering you and managed to get close to you, forcing you to let the rest of them get close also. How? He outmaneuvered you. How? He rolled better.

Next problem, you swapped from chase combat to tactical combat after the first round. In which case you shouldn've just been doing tactical combat in the first place.

Lastly, as far as movement, it all depends on how the GM interprets it to work. Saying you accelerate away from them at X speed and they're gone is not "Hand-waving" it, it just makes sense. Movement is a horrible power anyway.
WeaverMount
Cain I got your problem, you want speed to matter, but you want to keep distance abstract. I don't really see how that is do able.

What I would do is say that car chases only happen when it would be awesome play, and there for they only happen in areas where skill and handling are more important that top speed. I don't that the system should have to model all situations just the ones that are fun to play. It doesn't have to work as model of life, it has to produce fun car chases.

If it can up at my table I'm have regular drive test to maneuver at though the environment at a given speed. and actually track distance. That's just me though.
Synner667
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 8 2008, 10:57 PM) *
Good gods, hell no! I have a bottomless hatred of the Maneuver score. I think competitive basket weaving would have been a better mechanic. Jon Szetzo is a nice guy, but he needs a serious lesson in how to write game mechanics. I mean, you could spend forever calculating a score that ended up being meaningless. When I say that SR4 is better than the maneuver score, I'm not saying much of anything-- I prefer Synnibar to the Maneuver Score, and FATAL is only a few spots down from it.

Wonderful comment smile.gif

How about using the Trinity rules for vehicle combat, at least as a starter/framework [since the game mechanics are so similar] ??

Cain
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 8 2008, 02:14 PM) *
I don't think you were just cruising down the street at absolute top speed. If you were why? When you weren't being chased? Assuming that you weren't screaming down the street at top speed...

"They" didn't pull off anything, the one bike did, by outmaneuvering you and managed to get close to you, forcing you to let the rest of them get close also. How? He outmaneuvered you. How? He rolled better.

Next problem, you swapped from chase combat to tactical combat after the first round. In which case you shouldn've just been doing tactical combat in the first place.

Lastly, as far as movement, it all depends on how the GM interprets it to work. Saying you accelerate away from them at X speed and they're gone is not "Hand-waving" it, it just makes sense. Movement is a horrible power anyway.


Okay, here's the problem with the RAW. The winner of the opposed test sets the range for everyone. So, the one guy who beats us is able to place all his buddies in Close Range. If you tried to make it so you could set your ranges depending on who had the higher roll, you'd end up with a mess; it'd be a pain to remember who's in what range from whom.

Second, we didn't switch from Chase to tactical combat, although we probably should have. Passenger actions get weird in chase combat, mainly because of the change in time frame. I also wonder what would happen if I had sent the spirit into the chase. It doesn't have a vehicle skill, so the Force 10 spirit would end up being left behind.

QUOTE (WeaverMount @ Sep 8 2008, 02:19 PM) *
Cain I got your problem, you want speed to matter, but you want to keep distance abstract. I don't really see how that is do able.

What I would do is say that car chases only happen when it would be awesome play, and there for they only happen in areas where skill and handling are more important that top speed. I don't that the system should have to model all situations just the ones that are fun to play. It doesn't have to work as model of life, it has to produce fun car chases.

If it can up at my table I'm have regular drive test to maneuver at though the environment at a given speed. and actually track distance. That's just me though.


Okay then. You don't see any way of abstracting speed? I mean, we've been advocating handwaving it, isn't that sort of the same thing?

QUOTE (Synner667 @ Sep 8 2008, 02:33 PM) *
Wonderful comment smile.gif

How about using the Trinity rules for vehicle combat, at least as a starter/framework [since the game mechanics are so similar] ??

OK, I don't have a copy of Trinity handy. What were their rules, in a nutshell?
Tarantula
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 8 2008, 03:48 PM) *
Okay, here's the problem with the RAW. The winner of the opposed test sets the range for everyone. So, the one guy who beats us is able to place all his buddies in Close Range. If you tried to make it so you could set your ranges depending on who had the higher roll, you'd end up with a mess; it'd be a pain to remember who's in what range from whom.


How is that a problem? He outmaneuvered you, and everyone else, and managed to get you all bunched up in a close group. What is your problem with that? He drove better than you.
sunnyside
I do miss the candor they had back in the old editions where they start the section off with something along the lines of "we don't really do vehicle combat, here's something to wing it with"
Cain
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 8 2008, 02:50 PM) *
How is that a problem? He outmaneuvered you, and everyone else, and managed to get you all bunched up in a close group. What is your problem with that? He drove better than you.

One guy drives better, they all get into Close range. It wouldn't matter what the other go-gangers rolled. If we beat every single biker except for one, they all can come into close range. Heck, they could all critically botch, and they'd still close the distance, pulling a Picard Maneuver.
Mr. Unpronounceable
Max speed really doesn't matter...until somebody hits it.

If the chase scenario above was happening at 100, then you never got near anybody's max speed.
If it had happened at 200+, then the go-gangers should have had handling penalties (from exceeding max speed) on top of any others (from obstacles or whatever.)
If you were going 300, then the chase would have consisted basically of an ambush action that would have needed to cripple your vehicle in one pass to even be able to start a chase.

This is pretty much why riggers completely trash non-riggers - a non-wired character has to spend his one action to avoid a crash test, while the rigger should have 3-5 passes - spend a couple of those accelerating, and the chase is basically over. A wired character may have 3 passes, but is unlikely to have the skill (or bonus dice, or handling modifiers) to compete.
Xarei
Here is what I ran with in my last game, its a little handwavy, but it got the job done.

--------------------------
Chase Combat:
The rounds in chase combat are specifically defined as being 10 combat turns, this is not always appropriate, a go-gang rumble in tight city streets a chase will happen much faster than say a zepplin race. So, chases take a dramatically appropriate amount of time between 1 and 15 combat turns. Everyone involved in the chase gets 1 turn worth of action regardless of if they are a passenger or a driver.

Chases can occur in 3 types of terrain, Close, Normal and Open
Close: Thin city streets, canyons.
Normal: Wide city streets with little traffic, rough offroad terrain.
Open: Open highway, plains.

Close terrain favors vehicles that have higher acceleration but top speed doesn't matter.
Open terrain allows all participants to go their top speed but acceleration is not really important.
Normal terrain is a balance of the two.
Bonuses are assessed based on how much the top speed and acceleration of the slowest vehicle in each group relates to the slowest vehicle in the slowest group, each set amount above that slowest speed / accel (use the # to the left of the slash) grants some free dice on the maneuver roll at the start of each chase round.

Close: +2 Dice for each 5 acceleration in excess of slowest
Normal: +1 Die for each 5 acceleration in excess of slowest
+1 Die for each 25 speed in excess of slowest
Open: +2 Dice for each 25 speed in excess of slowest
--------------------------

At the time of the game Arsenal wasn't out so this hasn't been playtested in a world with vehicle modification, but this would be pretty easy to tweak to adjust the dice pool differential to whatever a GM feels is right.
It does not specifically address the "Picard Maneuver" problem, but at least it is less likely that a slow crummy vehicle will thoroughly outmaneuver a fast good one.
Also, with regards to a go gang chase, I always used the rule that is suggested for 1 vs. many interactions (I believe the original rule was for social tests) which is roll the group's best pool with a bonus for having friends in the mix, rather than having each individual roll as that inevitably leads to some nameless chump getting lucky.

I found the main problem with this rule as written is it had my players clamoring for a zepplin chase....


Cain
QUOTE
If the chase scenario above was happening at 100, then you never got near anybody's max speed.
If it had happened at 200+, then the go-gangers should have had handling penalties (from exceeding max speed) on top of any others (from obstacles or whatever.)
If you were going 300, then the chase would have consisted basically of an ambush action that would have needed to cripple your vehicle in one pass to even be able to start a chase.

While what you say makes sense, the problem is that's not at all what the rules say. The rules say you must chase it out,regardless of the speed difference. I'm looking for house rules that mean you don't have to.

Xarei: I like what I see, although I'm still thinking about the range issue. I'm thinking that instead of the winner of the test setting the range, he gets a +2 Superior Position modifier, kinda like the one you can get in melee combat. That way, you don't have to worry about distances so much.
sunnyside
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 8 2008, 09:47 PM) *
While what you say makes sense, the problem is that's not at all what the rules say. The rules say you must chase it out,regardless of the speed difference. I'm looking for house rules that mean you don't have to.

Xarei: I like what I see, although I'm still thinking about the range issue. I'm thinking that instead of the winner of the test setting the range, he gets a +2 Superior Position modifier, kinda like the one you can get in melee combat. That way, you don't have to worry about distances so much.


It's not exactly house ruling. You're just getting away from the opposition using tactical combat instead of chase combat. The trick is that doing this forces you to actually lay out the details of the roads and such that you're on. But if you want to go ahead, the rules for speed and handling the various manuvers you might try are all there in the RAW.

Chase combat is for when you don't want to lay out the roads, aren't shooting the other vehicle, and you don't want to be making manuvers that will crash you.

Cain
QUOTE (sunnyside @ Sep 8 2008, 09:05 PM) *
It's not exactly house ruling. You're just getting away from the opposition using tactical combat instead of chase combat. The trick is that doing this forces you to actually lay out the details of the roads and such that you're on. But if you want to go ahead, the rules for speed and handling the various manuvers you might try are all there in the RAW.

Chase combat is for when you don't want to lay out the roads, aren't shooting the other vehicle, and you don't want to be making manuvers that will crash you.

Chase Combat requires a few more things than that to work. You have to be in vehicles with roughly equal speed and acceleration, of the same type (chasing a helicopter in a car, for example, doesn't work in Chase Combat), and so on and so forth. Basically, since it requires so many things to work, it's effectively useless as far as rules go. Which is a pity, because it does have some good concepts in it.

I personally think Chase Combat should be removed entirely, and have its better functions folded into Tactical Combat. The problem is, I can't see how to do that without either abstracting or handwaving distances.
sunnyside
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 9 2008, 01:15 AM) *
The problem is, I can't see how to do that without either abstracting or handwaving distances.


That's exactly it. If you want to do things in tactical combat fine, but it's insanely slow and requires detailed mapping.

Going to chase combat means you're sacrificing detail. Again in a chaise in typical city streets in traffic you simply aren't going to tax the top speed of most vehicles.

For example I live in Philadelphia. Unless it's 4am or what have you good luck getting over 100 mph for more than ten seconds or so, forget about 220 miles an hour.

Actually maybe what you need is to transfer down from chase back to tactical combat.

I.e. lets say you get into a chase in downtown Seattle. Use chase combat to handle the two minutes it'd take to get to a straighaway without traffic lights, if you used tactical combat then you'd have to blow 40 combat turns.

But once there switch back to tactical combat to outrun the guys.

Ryu
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 8 2008, 11:57 PM) *
As you pointed out, that's already been factored into the rolls you need just to survive. It seems highly unfair that you penalize them again for going fast, when you're trying to get away. As for the change in distance, it is "instant" in that they suddenly jump from long range at the end of last turn, to short range at the start of the new turn.

Now, I don't mind the concept that people should be penalized for going fast, especially in tight areas. What I don't agree with is that it doesn't help them get away. Once you make the roll, you've successfully held your speed. There should be an advantage for doing that, as opposed to no bonus or even a penalty. They've been penalized once, why do it again?


I´m penalising both parties for going insanly fast on the driving test. I penalise the slower party for trying something reckless on the maneuver test.

Both are going insanely fast, the party with a better vehicle has a relative advantage.



Regarding the "Picard Maneuver": You can not avoid discrete distance jumps in a round-based combat system that uses abstract distances. This is an artifical problem. You will get nothing but a few "threads of infinite length" out of it. The GM should remove all vehicles that are not conceivably able to keep up from the chase combat.
Wasabi
I don't think its broken at all.

My own take is:

1. That the movement power of a Force 10 spirit allows x10 movement but that doesn't mean the frame of the vehicle can sustain that kind of stress. The movement power is better used to reduce the oppositions movement than to increase your own. Its like a Nitrous Injection system that can last for hours and if you were to try that the vehicle's structural integrity would take a SERIOUS beating and fail before the spirit's service expired.

2. Regarding speed Ryu just said it best. It can provide a modifier or penalty to the test but you can either hang or not. On a straightaway in the desert there isnt any maneuvering to be done, just tests to maintain control of the vehicle and those aren't hard at all.

3. A "Maneuver Test" is just that, its an attempt to outmaneuver the other. In every chase the GM, IMO, needs to apply modifiers that reflect the possible speed attainable in the area and the environment constraining maneuvers. So as an example, a car that could go 300 in rush hour might be weaving through cars, cutting up an emergency lane, etc., in order to lose a pursuer or to gain ground on the prey. If you are on a racing track then the maneuver test would be against a static threshold to maintain control of the vehicle at a high speed. Examples of both are listed in the BBB.

4. Picard maneuver? Not by RAW: "Chase Turns: Time during chase combat is measured by Chase Turns. One Chase Turn is one minute long (20 Combat Turns)." [BBB, p161]
The speed of a chase combat is 1min per test. Thats 60sec per maneuver test or 20 combat TURNS. Tests are required every Combat Turn to maintain control but every CHASE Turn to close or lengthen the distance between pursuers and prey. At 3 passes per turn thats 60 actions for a VR rigger only one of which CAN involve closing and 19 others just to not lose control of the vehicle.

So really, what you have is the ability for a vehicle to spend 2 min *minimum* to close from long to close range and another minute to attempt the Cut Off maneuver. 3min in Shadowrun game mechanics is a lifetime!!!
Aaron
Here's a question.

Do you want an awesome and cinematic chase scene, or do you want to simulate reality?

Once you have your objective in mind, it's pretty obvious where to go from there, I think.

EDIT: No, you don't get both. Real-life car chases are actually pretty boring. And by "boring" I mean boring in the narrative sense; I'm sure it's quite exciting for those in the chase.
Blade
The way I deal with it:

* Chase/Tactical combat only happens when there can be a chase. A westwind will outrun a dodge scoot in a few seconds on a deserted highway. But at rush hour, there will be a chase since the higher speed of the Westwind won't have much impact on the chase.
I might also throw in a few modifiers in some cases to reflect that one of the vehicle has some advantages over the other one (for example if the Westwind take a road with little to no traffic for a few meters before getting back into heavy traffic, it will get a bonus because of its higher speed).

* The rolls and choice are made at the beginning of each chase combat turn, but it takes the whole chase combat turn to lead to the outcome. For example if the Dodge Scoot is chasing the Westwind and wins the roll and decides to get from long range to close range. I'll explain it by saying that after a few seconds the Westwind has to suddenly brake down to avoid colliding with a car, and about 1 minute after the beginning of the chase turn the Dodge Scoot has gotten at close range with the Westwind.

* Characters can act during the Chase combat. Let's say that now that both vehicles are at close range, and the passengers of each vehicle shoot at each other. The drivers do their chase combat rolls to determine what will happen during the next minute. But if the passengers want to act during these minutes, this will switch to tactical combat for about 20 combat turns during which the situation between the vehicles will evolve according to what was decided by the chase combat.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 8 2008, 05:06 PM) *
One guy drives better, they all get into Close range. It wouldn't matter what the other go-gangers rolled. If we beat every single biker except for one, they all can come into close range. Heck, they could all critically botch, and they'd still close the distance, pulling a Picard Maneuver.


You can't see one guy forcing you to go slow enough that the rest are able to be in close range also?

If they critically botched, they get to crash and suck it. They're outta the chase.


Your problem is not with the chase rules, but with them not fitting your view of what they need to do.
Eryk the Red
QUOTE
Your problem is not with the chase rules, but with them not fitting your view of what they need to do.


Tarantula, those are the same thing. His problem is with the chase rules, and the problem is they don't do what he wants. I'm with him on that. Realistic or not, it's silly and kinda lame that speed has no benefit in a chase. I have my own set of rules I use, but they differ greatly from the RAW.

I don't really care for the solution that "if one side is a lot faster, they just win, no chase", because it doesn't offer a grey area. There should be times when speed is a benefit, but not so great that it makes success automatic.

The "Picard Maneuver" is also a problem. It means that a group of vehicles in a chase only needs one of them to have a great driver (the rest can be slightly competent monkeys) to reap the benefits of outmaneuvering the other side.

I, personally, also don't care for chase combat operating on a different timescale from all other types of combat. I'd rather bring that back in line with the rest, also. Lots of cool stuff can happen in a minute of a movie car chase, why should we gloss over all that?
Tarantula
QUOTE (Eryk the Red @ Sep 9 2008, 09:31 AM) *
Tarantula, those are the same thing. His problem is with the chase rules, and the problem is they don't do what he wants. I'm with him on that. Realistic or not, it's silly and kinda lame that speed has no benefit in a chase. I have my own set of rules I use, but they differ greatly from the RAW.

I don't really care for the solution that "if one side is a lot faster, they just win, no chase", because it doesn't offer a grey area. There should be times when speed is a benefit, but not so great that it makes success automatic.

The "Picard Maneuver" is also a problem. It means that a group of vehicles in a chase only needs one of them to have a great driver (the rest can be slightly competent monkeys) to reap the benefits of outmaneuvering the other side.

I, personally, also don't care for chase combat operating on a different timescale from all other types of combat. I'd rather bring that back in line with the rest, also. Lots of cool stuff can happen in a minute of a movie car chase, why should we gloss over all that?


If I am in a car, and you are walking, and we have a 1 minute race, do you really need a "grey" area to tell you you lose? What if we give you a bicycle? You know that no matter what, that car is going to beat you, and there really isn't anything you can do about it. Same thing with a super tuned optimized etc. car vs a generic POS mobile.

The "picard maneuver" is not a problem. If I am running from the cops, and one cop manages to get in front of me, and slams on his brakes, guess what, I'm slowing down unless I want to hit him. And guess what else, his 3 buddies that were behind me, are now right next to me too.

I see the "picard maneuver" as lacking imagination to visualize possible ways it happened in the abstract context of chase combat.
Eryk the Red
Do you only allow chases between cars that go the same speed? Because that's a little ridiculous, and pretty boring.

The rules here fail to model what I'm imagining. The rules may work fine for you, but for me, I don't think I should have to envision everything completely differently to match the rules. It's not a lack of imagination. It's having a different one from you, and apparently the author of the chase rules.

The rules are there to serve me. I do not serve the rules. When the rules fail to serve me (and my players), they get changed.
Blade
It's not just about speed. It's also about how fast you can go and who's chasing who.

Bicycle chasing a plane = no chase
Plane chasing bicycle = chase (weird but chase anyway)
Bycicle chasing car on an empty highway = no chase
Car chasing bicycle on an empty highway = chase (weird too)
Bycicle chasing car during rush hour in a city = chase
Car chasing bycicle during rush hour in a city = chase


Cain
QUOTE
1. That the movement power of a Force 10 spirit allows x10 movement but that doesn't mean the frame of the vehicle can sustain that kind of stress. The movement power is better used to reduce the oppositions movement than to increase your own. Its like a Nitrous Injection system that can last for hours and if you were to try that the vehicle's structural integrity would take a SERIOUS beating and fail before the spirit's service expired.

The GM used the Rocket Booster rules to determine the damage to the car. That seemed handwavy, but perfectly acceptable. As for the duration of the Movement power, it shouldn't need to take very long to get away. However, by the rules, we would need to sustain that speed for at least 4 minutes before we could escape.
QUOTE
3. A "Maneuver Test" is just that, its an attempt to outmaneuver the other. In every chase the GM, IMO, needs to apply modifiers that reflect the possible speed attainable in the area and the environment constraining maneuvers. So as an example, a car that could go 300 in rush hour might be weaving through cars, cutting up an emergency lane, etc., in order to lose a pursuer or to gain ground on the prey. If you are on a racing track then the maneuver test would be against a static threshold to maintain control of the vehicle at a high speed. Examples of both are listed in the BBB.

Making high-speed vehicles roll Vehicle tests to avoid crashing is fine. However, you make that roll separately from the Opposed Test you roll at the start of each Chase turn. Penalizing that opposed test seems like double-penalizing the players.
QUOTE
4. Picard maneuver? Not by RAW: "Chase Turns: Time during chase combat is measured by Chase Turns. One Chase Turn is one minute long (20 Combat Turns)." [BBB, p161]
The speed of a chase combat is 1min per test. Thats 60sec per maneuver test or 20 combat TURNS. Tests are required every Combat Turn to maintain control but every CHASE Turn to close or lengthen the distance between pursuers and prey. At 3 passes per turn thats 60 actions for a VR rigger only one of which CAN involve closing and 19 others just to not lose control of the vehicle.

While the timeframe itself is a problem, the Picard Maneuver still happens, because distance changes can only occur at the start of a Chase turn. So, at 59 seconds, the car is at long range; at 1:00, he's at short range. Also, you don't get your normal actions during Chase Combat; it's either Tactical turns and normal combat, or Chase turns and Chase combat.
QUOTE
* Characters can act during the Chase combat. Let's say that now that both vehicles are at close range, and the passengers of each vehicle shoot at each other. The drivers do their chase combat rolls to determine what will happen during the next minute. But if the passengers want to act during these minutes, this will switch to tactical combat for about 20 combat turns during which the situation between the vehicles will evolve according to what was decided by the chase combat.

Dropping in and out of Chase combat would be a nightmare. The different timeframes would make the riggers essentially helpless, since they have to operate on vehicle time. The vehicles themselves would be sitting ducks, since their defense pools would only refresh every 20 combat turns.
QUOTE
You can't see one guy forcing you to go slow enough that the rest are able to be in close range also?

Not without making a Cut Off test first. And that assumes that he's got the speed to close the distance and cut us off in the first place.
QUOTE
If I am in a car, and you are walking, and we have a 1 minute race, do you really need a "grey" area to tell you you lose? What if we give you a bicycle? You know that no matter what, that car is going to beat you, and there really isn't anything you can do about it. Same thing with a super tuned optimized etc. car vs a generic POS mobile.

If I put you in my mom's old 85 Honda, and put you up against Lance Armstrong on his racing bike, you would lose that 1 minute race. A human actually has better acceleration than a car, you just cap out in top speed. For example, a fast human can cover 100 meters in 10 seconds; most cars can't do that.
QUOTE
It's not just about speed. It's also about how fast you can go and who's chasing who.

In other words, handwave it. That's exactly what we're trying to avoid. Saying the rules work because you handwave and/or house rule them, is a fallacy.
Ryu
There are still a few misconceptions about chase combat. Trying to put up a fight on part of the escaping party makes it into tactical vehicle combat.

The jump in distances is an automatic effect of the abstract distance system. If that is really your base of contention, do distance in meters, and have each vehicle advance due to the result of the driving test (as in: choose speed, roll test). Then you could define break-off distances depending on the surrounding area (ie: suburbs 500m, downtown 80 m) etc. Once the escaping vehicle has the required lead, the driver makes a vehicle stealth test, also modified for the surrounding area (ie: many sidestreets full of parked cars: +2, barren industrial zone -4).
Tarantula
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 9 2008, 01:47 PM) *
Not without making a Cut Off test first. And that assumes that he's got the speed to close the distance and cut us off in the first place.

If I put you in my mom's old 85 Honda, and put you up against Lance Armstrong on his racing bike, you would lose that 1 minute race. A human actually has better acceleration than a car, you just cap out in top speed. For example, a fast human can cover 100 meters in 10 seconds; most cars can't do that.

In other words, handwave it. That's exactly what we're trying to avoid. Saying the rules work because you handwave and/or house rule them, is a fallacy.


A cut off test forces you to avoid crashing. Outmaneuvering you causing you to slow down doesn't force you to make a crash test, but does put you in the range that HE wants you in.

I found quarter mile times for a 1985 honda civic S. 18.2 seconds. Quarter mile is 402 meters. 18.2 / 4 = 4.55 seconds to cover the distance.

Bicycle records that I"ve found here the shortest time for a 200 meter flying start was 5.523 seconds. Which means the car is going almost twice as fast. Your comparision is wrong.

Mr. Unpronounceable
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 9 2008, 08:47 PM) *
Making high-speed vehicles roll Vehicle tests to avoid crashing is fine. However, you make that roll separately from the Opposed Test you roll at the start of each Chase turn. Penalizing that opposed test seems like double-penalizing the players.


Personally, I just roll them into one test, rather than testing separately - it seems to work better when you're using vastly different handling scenarios.

For example - a car chasing a motorcycle into a parking garage is going to have more issues with manueverability - a motorcycle might be able to take a shortcut between parked cars, while the car has to go the long way around. Similarly, a rotodrone chasing the motorcycle is going to have even worse problems since it has a 3rd dimension to worry about, but on a road during rushhour would have a huge advantage.

Looking at the results goes something like:

Critical glitch = you crashed.
Glitch = make a crash test, + see below.
Lost opposed test = too busy avoiding obstacles, opponent gains advantage.
Won test = You're lined up for a shot/You've broken contact, keep it up.
The Monk
Seems to me that Speed and Acceleration need to be abstracted. How about abstracting the Attributes themselves, for example Strength isn't the amount of weight you can press but rather a number from 1+. Make the Speed and Acceleration attributes the same as the handling attribute. Like handling it becomes the third attribute to a drive test (Reaction+Piloting+Handling).

This attribute then can be used in a number of different situations. For example if the Chase combat is happening in Open Terrain, and you are trying the Break Off Stunt, Make a Vehicle Test using Reaction+Piloting+Speed. If you are in Light Terrain use Reaction+Piloting+Acceleration. If you are in Restricted and Tight use Reaction+Piloting+Handling as normal.

These changes can be used for any Chase Stunts from Break Off to Ram. It can also be used for the Opposed Test. All you would have to figure out is what kind of bonuses different Speeds and Acceleration gives you.

For Speed how about dividing the number by 50 rounding down. So a Dodge Scoot with a Speed of 60 would have +1 for Speed, and a Suzuki Mirage with a Speed of 200 would have a +4.

For Acceleration divide it by 15 rounding down. So that a Dodge Scoot would have a +1 and a Suzuki Mirage would have a +3.

This isn't perfect but it incorporates Speed and Acceleration without having to come up with a new set of rules.


Earlydawn
I feel the need to point out that Adam has said that Movement was not meant for most of the applications that people attach it to. The specific circumstance of the comment was in regard to Aircraft Carriers, Heavy Bombers, and other strategic military applications, but be prepared that Movement may not be applicable to vehicles. I'll admit that anything van-sized or smaller seems reasonable to me.
The Monk
Quick question about Tactical and Chase combats. It says that drivers must spend one action driving their vehicles. Does this apply for drones on autopilot and Riggers too?
Cain
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 9 2008, 01:51 PM) *
A cut off test forces you to avoid crashing. Outmaneuvering you causing you to slow down doesn't force you to make a crash test, but does put you in the range that HE wants you in.

I found quarter mile times for a 1985 honda civic S. 18.2 seconds. Quarter mile is 402 meters. 18.2 / 4 = 4.55 seconds to cover the distance.

Bicycle records that I"ve found here the shortest time for a 200 meter flying start was 5.523 seconds. Which means the car is going almost twice as fast. Your comparision is wrong.

We've established that the rules for outmaneuvering someone doesn't alter their speed at all. In fact, too much speed can be a liability in Chase Combat. At any event, even if you botch the test, you can still close to short range if your buddy makes the roll.

Let's even try reversing the situation. You're chasing a drone, which is trying to make it back to it's controlling rigger's van. All three of you roll: The opposing rigger wins, you come in second, and the drone comes in last with a botch. Because the opposing rigger won, he places both the drone and himself at Long Range. So, we not only have a Picard Maneuver or two, as the drone moves to the van, and the van moves to wherever; we also have it so the rigger's Ground Craft skill helps a rotodrone move better.

I tried looking at your link for quarter mile times, but it didn't work. At any event, even if your numbers are right, cars usually don't accelerate equally over the quarter mile. They start off much slower, and then build up to speed.

QUOTE
For example - a car chasing a motorcycle into a parking garage is going to have more issues with manueverability - a motorcycle might be able to take a shortcut between parked cars, while the car has to go the long way around. Similarly, a rotodrone chasing the motorcycle is going to have even worse problems since it has a 3rd dimension to worry about, but on a road during rushhour would have a huge advantage.

Supposedly, these sort of modifiers are applied from the Terrain table. Unfortunately, it's a set of Threshold modifiers, which don't apply on opposed tests. I can see forcing one roll per turn, to keep control of the vehicle; but I think applying the penalty a second time is a bit much.
QUOTE
I feel the need to point out that Adam has said that Movement was not meant for most of the applications that people attach it to. The specific circumstance of the comment was in regard to Aircraft Carriers, Heavy Bombers, and other strategic military applications, but be prepared that Movement may not be applicable to vehicles. I'll admit that anything van-sized or smaller seems reasonable to me.

While I can see the reasoning, the way it is written, Movement does apply fully to vehicles. While I admit the effect was extreme, you have to remember that I had to summon and bind a Force 10 spirit, without getting killed. Once you pul that off, it actually seemed like a bit of a waste to use up a service like that. It was hilarious, though. biggrin.gif
Wasabi
QUOTE (The Monk @ Sep 9 2008, 09:14 PM) *
Quick question about Tactical and Chase combats. It says that drivers must spend one action driving their vehicles. Does this apply for drones on autopilot and Riggers too?


Since all drones are vehicles per RAW and all vehicles must have 1 action maintaining control By RAW, yes.

I totally never made that connection until you asked. Huh. Nice catch!
It slightly nerfs riggers which considering their stupidly good ability to put loads of firepower where its needed a slight nerf probably isnt a bad thing...
The Monk
Along with the above suggestion, how about adding a new Chase Combat Stunt: Speed Up, make an Opposed Vehicle Drive Test (everyone in the chase rolls) if you win, you may increase the speed in which the chase is happening by up to Acceleration times net hits. This lasts until the Terrain Type ends, or until the GM determines that it is impossible to keep this speed up.

Note this would require the GM to set the speed in which the Chase Combat is happening (this should correspond to the Terrain Type). He would also need to figure out what kinds of negative modifiers to give for vehicles going above their maximum Speed. And he would need to make a chart describing the modifiers for going above the safe maximum speed in each Terrain Type.

These modifiers should be applied in the following turns for any Vehicle Tests.

Also make a chart describing the actual range in meters for each Engagement Range for each Terrain Type. This could be used for determining the ranges for weapons such as firearms.
TKDNinjaInBlack
does anyone else see the real problem with the mentioned scenario? Movement makes your car go faster by a multiple. As far as i am concerned having GMed, the Crash test goes up by the same multiple. Oh wait, you are going ten times your max speed? The threshold to not crash and die is now 30. Oh, you fail? guess what, you all die because now your 10 times the max speed limit makes the crash have so much momentum there is no way you could survive. You are all splattered goo on the inside of your crushed can of a vehicle plowed into a wall. Movement is not a viable option ever if you want to use the rules. Sometimes you have to use common sense. You know the reason racers around the world race formula one cars that pretty much top out at 210 mph? it's because you can't turn and control a car beyond that. Speed records for land travel are only set in salt flats where control isn't an issue. No man made road exists without turns, let alone at least some form of traffic to deal with and maneuver around. To think that you'd be able to use movement in any kind of urban or even rural setting outside of a flat desert is absurd.

Now, coming from some experience I wasn't proud to have shared in when I was a captive passenger in a car chase years ago, top speeds of vehicles don't count at all when driving in any kind of urban setting. There is too much maneuvering and controlling and turning going on to ever hit anywhere near a top speed. Want an important variable... acceleration. That's way more important than top speed in any kind of city. Even if you have straight roads, you have intersections with cross traffic, pedestrians, driveways, and other factors that keep top speed from being attained.

Now, as far as maneuvers go in chase combat, I thought it had mentioned somewhere that one can only increase or decrease the engagement range by one level per chase turn, but I don't remember where I read that and I can't find it again. A reference would be nice if somebody knows where that's at. That right there seems to kill the "picard maneuver," but I can't prove that exists.

There should never be any reason to leave chase combat for tactical combat. It says at the beginning of chase combat that initiative passes are applied to the chase turn much like a combat turn. If your gun bunny teammate is bitching because he can't shoot 60 times and has to stick with just his 3 init passes, tell him to deal with it because the car is moving around and he can't get a good bead. The movies make shooting from a car look so easy... Not that I can speak from experience, but I can say that life has taught me that anything that looks like it can be done fairly easy usually has the opposite effect.

To those who say they don't like wrapping their minds around the rules because it makes things different than they imagined it... Dream up something different on your own time. The rules and dice rolls act as a third party in games. We forget that things don't always go the way we want them to, and just because he rolled better than us on that round and cheated us from getting away we get upset. It's the GM's responsibility to fill in the gaps and translate what the rolls mean to the players. Yes, he rolled better than you. That means you got slowed down by some traffic that pulled out in front of you. Now he's even with you and the rest of the gang is too. As players, deal with it and find a different means of a solution. That's where the roleplaying comes into play. Deal with is as your character would. Sometimes you do meet your match, even if it is by luck or some other outside event. in RL I can think of a hundred examples where I would have won "only if something hadn't have happened..."
HappyDaze
QUOTE
Sometimes you have to use common sense.

That would be in not applying momentum-based effects to the Movement power. If you do otherwise, people walking at 5x normal speed are going to be blowing out their knees and the whole power goes to shit. I agree that Movement is easily abused and problematic, but solutions that try to have the speed actually penalize the subject of the spell are going the wrong way. Instead consider having the power adjust speed by +/- (Force x 10)%. Now a Force 5 is increasing your speed to 150% rather than 500%. Much weaker, but more reasonable.
Cain
QUOTE
does anyone else see the real problem with the mentioned scenario? Movement makes your car go faster by a multiple. As far as i am concerned having GMed, the Crash test goes up by the same multiple. Oh wait, you are going ten times your max speed? The threshold to not crash and die is now 30. Oh, you fail? guess what, you all die because now your 10 times the max speed limit makes the crash have so much momentum there is no way you could survive. You are all splattered goo on the inside of your crushed can of a vehicle plowed into a wall. Movement is not a viable option ever if you want to use the rules. Sometimes you have to use common sense. You know the reason racers around the world race formula one cars that pretty much top out at 210 mph? it's because you can't turn and control a car beyond that. Speed records for land travel are only set in salt flats where control isn't an issue. No man made road exists without turns, let alone at least some form of traffic to deal with and maneuver around. To think that you'd be able to use movement in any kind of urban or even rural setting outside of a flat desert is absurd.

Considering that the only way you can reach those speeds is if you've summoned a Force 10 spirit, I'd say the spirit is powerful enough to know to control the velocity. Personally, I don't believe in killing players just because they used a powerful ability. You've already gone through quite a bit of hassle, to put yourself in the position to even go that fast.
QUOTE
There should never be any reason to leave chase combat for tactical combat. It says at the beginning of chase combat that initiative passes are applied to the chase turn much like a combat turn. If your gun bunny teammate is bitching because he can't shoot 60 times and has to stick with just his 3 init passes, tell him to deal with it because the car is moving around and he can't get a good bead. The movies make shooting from a car look so easy... Not that I can speak from experience, but I can say that life has taught me that anything that looks like it can be done fairly easy usually has the opposite effect.

I can think of a few cases. One would be if you summoned a spirit. Technically, a spirit can't participate in vehicle combat, since it has no vehicle skill to roll in the opposed test. Because of that, you'd need to go back to normal combat. Another example is if a person jumped from one vehicle to another, and engaged the passengers in melee combat. If you read the "close range" description, it even says that jumping from vehicle to vehicle is fair game.
QUOTE
To those who say they don't like wrapping their minds around the rules because it makes things different than they imagined it... Dream up something different on your own time.

Um, dude? That's exactly the point of this thread. This is a thread designed to look for ways to fix Chase Combat. If you don't think there's a problem, no one is forcing you to read this thread. You're welcome to debate the merits of Chase Combat, and argue that the rules work as written. But you can't tell us that we're not allowed to discuss house rules and fixes, in a thread asking for house rules and fixes.
Jhaiisiin
So here's my suggestion. Chase combat works basically as designed... Winner declares range and you go from there, but that's the *final* range of the chase round, which lasts a minute. Yes, that means you have to figure out/abstract what happens in that minute. If you need to do tactical combat in there, you can. As ranges increase, take that into account for making some weapons non-viable for hurting your target. As ranges decrease, options will increase, including the option of leaping onto the opposing vehicle.

Example:

Joe Rigger and Biker Steve are in a chase. Steve spots Joe at long range and gives chase to the fragger. They both roll, and Steve comes up the winner. Because the chase is just starting, they're *still* at long range, and by the end of the chase turn (1 minute in game time), they'll be at the close range Steve wants.
So breakdown:
Crunch: Steve and Joe make opposed tests, with Joe coming up the winner. He sets the range which becomes applicable at the next turn (he needs time to *get* to that range)
Fluff: Steve spots Joe and guns it to get to him. Joe panics because Steve is a mean fraggin' elf punk and didn't like his sister being messed with. He peels out and tries to make his way down the road. Steve dodges cars and slips the narrow spaces between others while Joe gets slown down by cars refusing to let him pass. After 60 seconds, Steve has caught up and Joe is worried.

During this timeframe, Steve could be firing a weapon, or just focusing on driving as he tries to close with Joe. Once there, he could leap to Joe's vehicle if desired, or do other Close range crud.

Round 2:
Another roll and Joe comes out on top. He sets distance to long and starts to get away.
Crunch: Steve and Joe roll, with Joe coming out on top. By the end of the next 60 seconds, he pulls back to long range. Assuming Steve doesn't prompt tactical combat by jumping onto the vehcile or somesuch, then this just ends up with a range increase.
Fluff: Honking and screaming prove triumphant as cars part the way and Joe guns it to get away from Steve. Assuming steve doesn't do something like jump to his vehicle, fire at him, etc, then Joe just deftly maneuvers through the crowd. If steve does jump over, Joe still peels out, but now has to deal with the punk while not crashing.

Assume steve Jumps, keep the results of Round 2 (realizing that in 60 secs, the chase is moot because Steve left his bike behind), and enter tactical combat. Remember, Joe must spend the appropriate action each turn maintaining control or else he crashes, possibly injuring or killing both of them.


How's that work for you?
TKDNinjaInBlack
I can see where you don't believe in killing players for using powerful abilities, but might doesn't make right. I can think of more than a few examples where someone who uses a bit more power than they should have to do something silly met their ends because of it.

To streamline things, passengers and other entities involved can act during the chase turn. Their actions get spread out over the turn just like a driver's initiative passes do. It mentions it during passenger actions just under the maneuvers section. Chase turns themselves are semi-tactical.

I don't mean to point blame or start fights. Accept this as an apology. I came to this thread to find out what you thought was wrong with chase combat, and so far, everything I've read more or less seemed like the GM just got flustered and didn't account for any in game reason your team was now again in close engagement range. I personally have never had a problem with chase combat. When movement gets thrown into the mix though, things always get stupid quick. As far as blown out knees with movement and jogging, yeah, i'd totally see that happening. The physically conscious mage who goes jogging every morning but doesn't like to commit time to do it summons a spirit and has it use movement (Force 5) on him every day. I'd say that mage's knees need replacing 5 times as fast as the other joggers who jog the same amount of time. 5 times the distance, 5 times the wear and tear.
Jhaiisiin
Oh, in regards to the movement power, I understand it to be, well, magic, and it helps protect the target while moving it from one point to another. Maybe it creates a millimeter of space beneath your feet and the pavement so that you run normally, but cover 5x the distance due to the power. Your body isn't doing any more work, and thus no more stress is incurred. The same protection extends to accelleration and decelleration. The power slows stuff down or speeds it up as needed without negatively impacting the power.

However, if something unexpectedly gets in the way... like say a Wall, then you suffer damage based on crashing into it at the speed you were travelling at. So a spiffy human running along at 150m/turn gets to take damage if he goes from 150 to 0 due to an obstruction.
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