If the ward thought you were its creator 100% then why can you not tell it to let your buddy who doesn't have masking in?

You can't, you are not its owner. Cry about how a super ward "should" exist, except that it doesn't, why? Because, they didn't write it up, so they don't exist.

If the ward didn't think you were its creator 100% it wouldn't let you through.

Period.

I don't think wards are that smart. I think they have "allowed auras" and thats it. If your aura matches an allowed aura you go through, otherwise you don't. The creators aura is always allowed. Creators have some kind of magical way that they and they alone can order the ward to allow other people in/out or to listen to other people to order people in/out. A way that is not duplicative via masking.

Well, they are or the aren't.

I never thought I would agree with Tarantula, but Masking does not make you the ward's creator. All it does is allow you to pass through as if you were it's creator or another allowed. It does not allow you to command the ward. Unless you also have Extended Masking, it does not allow you to bring through active foci or spells. It does not allow you to bring through anyone else with you.

This is RAW. If you want to do so otherwise in your games Crizh, go ahead, but you are house-ruling.

Wards aren't that smart. The creator could if he had masking, mask as someone else, and yet still order his ward around. Nothing prohibits that. It doesn't listen to him because of his aura.

If you look at it like a set of rules for a Firewall.

It has a white-list of permitted auras.

It has an admin to alert when an unauthorized aura attempts to cross it.

It can add auras to the white-list either temporarily or permanently at it's admins instruction.

Why put the admin's aura on the permanent white-list? He's the one person that doesn't need to be on it.

If the admin needs to cross it he just adds his aura temporarily until he is done and then takes it off again. Hell he could leave the white-list blank and just add folks on an ad-hoc basis.

Result? The Ward cannot be fooled by Masking.

The alternative is that Wards aren't that smart. Like you said.

The only link it has to it's Creator is the Aura he has hard-coded into it at creation and anyone that has that aura has root access. Once you've Masked as it's creator you have it by the nuts and can do anything you like.

If that's a problem for you the solution is straight-forward. Don't create your own Wards. Have high Force Spirits do it and then send them home thus forcing intruders to go on a dangerous Astral Quest to find the Aura they need to duplicate.

[I was just looking at the text of Extended Masking and, do you know, it makes no mention of Wards at all.]

He doesn't have a choice, he is always allowed. No exceptions. He can't even remove himself. Therefore, the ward can be fooled by masking, because the creator doesn't have the option to remove himself.

Crizh, provide one line of quoted rules text saying once you bypass a ward via masking yourself as it's owner, you are allowed to add &/or remove from it's allowed list. It is not there. It is not allowed by RAW.

Also, the Masking description makes no mention of wards either. That is all in the bypass wards section, which says you can use Masking to do so. Extended Masking, while not specifically stated in this text, functions as Masking, plus the ability to mask spells & foci on you. Because it is Masking, just with an extended application, it functions for bypassing a ward.

Yes?....

That would be the second option I described, the inherently flawed one that you claim doesn't exist.

And to head off the argument you are obviously going to use to counter, why can't the creator use Masking or Flexible Signature while creating the Ward?

That way he would have to use Masking to penetrate his own Ward and a mage that Masked using the creator's real aura would get his ass handed to him.

It is not the second option, because you said, "The only link it has to it's Creator is the Aura he has hard-coded into it at creation and anyone that has that aura has root access. Once you've Masked as it's creator you have it by the nuts and can do anything you like."

Which is incorrect. It has a magical link to the creator, as well as being able to recognize its aura. Being the creator you have the ability to add/remove people from the list of who it will let by, as well as allow other people to do the same.

Masking yourself as the creator only allows you to pass through the ward uninhibited. You do not "have it by the nuts" and you definitely cannot "do anything you like".

If you disagree, give me a quote that says you have the same abilities as the creator, or that you can add/remove people from its allowed list.

Why can't he? Because, it is not an option given in the text to be done while making a ward, therefore, it is not allowed, for whatever reason you feel like making up.

I agree with Tarantula that this is not allowed by simple Masking, but it would make a great advanced Metamagic technique (requiring both Masking and Flexible Signature) to allow 'reprogramming' wards in this manner.

While I'm not disagreeing with anybody, there are a few points to ponder:

First of all, many wards have more than one creator. In fact, that's about the only way to get a really large and powerful ward. So, there's more than one aura that you could mimic. Now, I'd find it odd that anyone who participated would have the exact same "access" to the ward's controls as everyone else, but that's just how I see it.

Second, a ward is basically a wall in astral space. It opens a door for the permitted auras. Now, the rules don't say when or how these doors are programmed to open. It could be that they're only programmed in when the ward is being created. This way, even if you perfectly mimic the ward's creator, you can't change the settings.

Third, even if you can't change the settings, the rules appear to indicate that the ward won't "inhibit" you; so if you have a quickened spell on, which is effectively part of your aura, it shouldn't stop you. The actual quote is "inhibit them", which is interesting and may be a pronoun malfunction. Nevertheless, that makes it clear that you can bring more than one aura through the ward at a time.

If you think that's too much, I'd used the breaking through astral barriers rule: for every net success you get, you may bring one extra astral aura through. That seems to solve the problem.

crizh:
SM, 124, "In order to synchronize one’s aura so it mimics a ward’s creator, the synchronizing magician or spirit must be able to see the creator’s aura to use as a reference. One way to do this is to track the astral link present between a ward and its creator"



As to wards having more than one creator, you're wrong. There is one person making the test, if other people help, it increases the size the ward can be, and they use the teamwork rules. But there is still one person who is actually using the bonus dice from everyone else on his warding test. He is the owner.

Second: It doesn't open a door. It merely lets them pass through. Like a soap bubble. If you hand is soapy, you can stick your finger in it, if it isn't it pops (or in the case of a ward, blocks you). The rules say the creator can see through them and pass through them at will, and allow others to do so also. This implies that it is not set at creation, but is able to dynamically be changed by the creator at his whim.

Won't inhibit the creator, not you, who are mimicing him. Quickened spells have an aura (just not an astral form) and that quickened spell will not be on the list of approved auras to let pass, and you mimicing the creator cannot add it to the list. So it would get blocked, unless you had extended masking, and could hide the quickened spell's aura from the ward entirely by hiding it in yours.

As far as using breaking through astral barriers? No, you're not breaking through... but your spell certainly can try to break through on its own. And alert the creator (what was the point of impersonating again? Oh yeah, so you don't alert them.)

Extended masking handles bringing spells/foci/etc through with you while impersonating the owner.

I'll have to agree with Tarantula here. While Masking may fool the ward into thinking you are the Creator, you lack the required link to the Ward to change its configuration.

To use the firewall example from earlier, the Firewall may think you are Admin but you don't have the passwords to log into it. It merely is letting you through because it is configured to let Admin through.

Why does it sound like everyone is reluctant to agree with me... Makes me feel so unloved!

It does not mention anywhere that this is an un-interruptible un-fake-able command conduit between Mage and Ward/Spirit/Spell/etc.

Spirits explicitly have a Mental link to their Summoner. A link that is explicitly interruptible.

The Astral Link mentioned above between Spirit and Summoner is not interruptible. Ergo they are different, distinct, separate links.

Without explicit text describing such a Command Link for Wards you are making it up.

Making it up, quite reasonably, to try to get the fluff to conform to the way we think the rules ought to be, but making it up nonetheless.

I tend to view Wards as a cross between your soap bubble (although they are three rather than two dimensional as I understand) model and one of those kids toy that you hammer the shapes through the appropriate hole.

The Ward has one shape that it will always let through, it's creator's aura acts like a key almost, which when activated allows other keys to be created, permanently or temporarily, as shaped holes in it's surface. None of those keys, however, turn the second 'tumbler' that the first one does, allowing the Ward to be re-configured.

My point, as always, is that if the Ward has a two way ranged communication link with it's creator then the idea of using his Aura to slip through is absurd. The Ward merely needs to be designed to ping that link and deny access if no reply is received.

This is a trivial alteration to the 'programming' of a Ward compared to, for instance, a Trap Ward.

My original post was endeavouring to point out that, by the fluff, Masking was sufficient to completely own a Ward.

The intent of the rules is clear. Extended Masking is intended for this role. The RAW and the fluff do not support this interpretation, however.



LOL.

All of the above in a spirit of love.

How many games are we playing in together?

If we posted this much there we'd be counting the cash and spending the karma by now.

I never claimed there was. I said this "link" is probably how they do it, as the book never describes it. Must the same as the link between caster and spell is most likely the way the control the spell.


And spirits are intelligent, as opposed to wards/spells.


Not really, they're still an astral link. It just happens you can communicate with a spirit, because its intelligent.


Making up a description for how they control their ward? Yes. Making up a link? No.


Fluff is pointless in the arguement, so don't worry about the link anymore. Its a descriptior of how I think the mage controls the ward.


I disagree on the shape analogy. All the info we get from the text is that it never inhibits the creator, and that the creator can change who it inhibits. If you use masking, you can impersonate the creator, and be inhibited the same way. That is all. You can make up whatever reason you want for why this happens (because none is given) but thats how ti works.


Wards don't have 2 way communication. The creator is alerted when they are broken through/destroyed. And the creator can change who is allowed through. Does it matter how this is done? No, it just is.
(My fluff explanation would be breaking through causes a link to flicker, while destroying the ward destroys the link. Attacking it would cause the link to become weaker. Is this in the books anywhere? No, but its my reasoning for how it works).


It all depends on how you interpret the "two way" communication. I don't think it works, for reasons I just explained. The ward can't ping and ask permisison, its a stupid entity. No intelligence.


Masking is sufficient to pass through a ward, that is all. You can not change who is allowed, nor can you bring other auras through with you. That is clear by RAW. Extended masking hides the auras of spells/foci on you, which would then let those come through also, that is also clear by RAW.

If you could quote RAW more and explain why you think this isn't the case, it'd help me to understand your position better.

No you are missing the point. The standard Astral Link can be used to track a Spirit into the Metaplanes. The Telepathic Link between Summoner and Spirit is severed by the Meta-planar threshold.

The Spirits intelligence has no bearing here. The Telepathic Link is different to the Astral Link. One string remains while the other is broken. Different strings.



Um, yes.

See above.



Regardless. Information passes from one end of the link to the other in both directions. Two-way link.



The thing you are sitting in front of has no intelligence. Could it manage this? How can a trap ward follow it's program with no intelligence? Or an anchored spell?

Intelligence is not required. Only the simplest of input/response programming would be required and at least one of the advanced Wards exceeds this level of complexity.



Neither of these is clear by RAW. Masking lets you appear to be the Creator of a Ward => the Ward lets you through. Because Wards do not inhibit their Creators.

Neither the RAW or the fluff specify how or why this is so. They merely state that Masking to appear to have the same aura as the Creator is sufficient for the Ward to treat you as it's Creator.

The RAW and the fluff do not specify how a Creator alters the Ward's rules. Which is as much information as they give about passing the Ward. All things being equal, therefore, Masking is sufficient to alter a Wards rules.

Controversially, Extended Masking does not say that it permits the Masked Astral Forms to pass through Astral Barriers.

It merely says that it disguises them. They still exist as separate Astral Forms and are still, presumably, blocked by Astral Barriers in the same way that invisible people are still blocked by Physical Barriers like Walls.

While there is a teamwork test, they also add to the maximum force of the ward; and there is nothing stating that the lead person is the sole owner and controller of the ward. The "passing through a ward" section doesn't reference an owner of a ward, or even a controller; it says "creator". Every person who participates is a creator of the ward IMO, and I ask you to show me where it says you can have only one creator of a ward.


The door is a metaphor. Like a wall, you have to build your doors into it during construction, or you have to blast a hole in it. There's nothing that says a creator can let any aura he likes through at any time; it just says the creator can designate other auras to pass through. Now, since it doesn't say when you make that designation, it makes sense that it only happens a creation, and can't be changed for the lifetime of the ward. Wards only last a few weeks anyway, so this isn't a big deal; any new forms will get permission when the old ward goes down and the new one goes up.

I don't think you read my last post carefully enough. I said you could use the same rule for breaking through for fooling a ward: for each net success you get on your *Masking* roll, you get to bring one additional aura through. I/m personally of the opinion that fooling the ward should allow you to pass through with all your spells and foci intact.

At any event, this does prove one of my points from earlier: Masking is essential for any mage that wants to bypass astral barriers.

No, it doesn't. The creator can modify who is let in or out. The creator can tell when the ward is breached/damaged/disrupted. The link merely exists, by RAW it does nothing.


It is magic. Magic does not have intelligence.
Trap wards don't block anyone, but when someone not "on the list" goes through, they block them in. This is no more intelligent than the basic functions of a ward.
As far as anchored spells go, they have a trigger chosen by the creator when they are created. Nothing fancy about that. They can also trigger anchored spells via mental command at anytime with no limitation. Much like how a ward creator can change who is allowed with no limitation.


Wards can not ask permission to let someone in. They can only notify the creator of an attempt to press through, an attack against them, or upon being destroyed. There is no two way communication ability. The only thing the creator can change is the ward type, or who is allowed by. Thats it. He can't tell the ward to ask him permission, its not an option.


The key to the problem is that you keep stating that the text says you are treated as its creator by the ward. That is false. All the text says is that you are not inhibited. That is not the same thing. It explicitly says that, because you cannot change who is allowed in.

SM, 124, "If the intruding magician succeeds, the ward no longer inhibits them."

The fact that it references the "creator" of the ward repeatedly, not "creators".


I disagree. The text stating how mana barriers work is before the area specific to wards. Wards are a mana barrier, and follow that text, which is: SR4, 185, "Mana barriers do not affect their creators, who can see through them or pass through them at will and allow others to do so as well." The text doesn't limit this to only when they are created, so it is a dynamic ability.


That might be a good basis for a house rule, I'll agree, but it isn't RAW.
Masking is not, extended masking is. Getting by is nice getting by with all your toys and goodies is better.

You have, once again, ignored the reason why the ward no longer inhibits them. That paragraph tells you about three times that it does so because it thinks you are it's creator.

This is exactly the same requirement for being able to alter the Ward.

Exactly the same because both benefits of being the Ward's Creator are listed in the same sentence.

It is clearly structured thus:

If you are A you can do B and C.

What is complicated about the sentence:

If you are disguised as A sufficiently to do B you must also be able to do C?

Full paragraph:
SM, 124, "Only magicians with the Masking metamagic technique (p. 190, SR4) or spirits with the Aura Masking power (p. 98) may attempt to synchronize their aura with a ward in such a way. In order to synchronize one’s aura so it mimics a ward’s creator, the synchronizing magician or spirit must be able to see the creator’s aura to use as a reference. One way to do this is to track the astral link present between a ward and its creator (see Astral Tracking, p. 185, SR4). Then an Opposed Test is made between the initiate’s Intuition + Magic + initiate grade and the ward’s Force x 2. If the intruding magician succeeds, the ward no longer inhibits them. If the ward wins, it continues to inhibit the intruding magician, but does not alert its creator until the intruding magician tries to force his way through by another method."

Thats once, that it says mimic. Then it tells you what exactly happens if you successfully mimic it. Thats it. Please, give me a quote that says you ARE the creator. Or that says you have the abilities of the creator.

Read that again and dispute it.

You're making an assumption.

A can do B and C.
You are D.
If D looks like A, you can do B.

That is what the books give. Inferring that you can also do C is an assumption. Your logic is flawed.

Understand?

of DOOM!

I understand you are making an assumption that the books do not support. That is why I say it is not true, because if the books do not say it, you can not do it.

As are you.

Unless you have a quote I've missed.

Just about every reference to opposition to social or combat tests uses a single pronoun. Does that mean only two people can participate in a social or combat test?

Maybe, but we've been around and around on this one. What do you guys think of using that as a basis for a house rule?

And Masking is still essential, 'cause you can't have Extended Masking without it.

All this bits on basic masking... how many actually bothered to read.

Masking: ..... 2nd paragraph. "Whenever someone attempts to assense the aura of someone using masking, make an Assensing + Intuition opposed test against the initiate's Intuition + Magic + inititate grade. If they get fewer hits, they see only the false aura." ... if more they see both illusory and real aura.

Translation: a watcher has almost a statistically zero chance of seeing through an initiates masking (assuming magic 5+ intuition higher than the watchers entire pool + initiatiate grade). Wage-slave lo-grade sec mage is also unlikely to see through it peering through mage-sight in a security line or the like.

That to me, makes masking one of the most usefull for the mage who does not want to be recognized as such. Extended masking is then a no brainer to allow you to extend this to active spells and foci.


Also, I agree... awakened/not awakened isn't in the SIN. While people might cross-reference the SIN against a magic registry of sorts (does this person have a magic license allowing him to possess that focus?)... it's not in the SIN itself from anything I've ever seen in the rules. Outside of some very specific locales.

NB: I tend to think licenses are more of profession based... you see a lot of the archetypes in the BBB have things like the gunslinger adept "Fake Detectives License" which I think is used to explain why the char can have things like the pistols and other 'R' gear over the hassle of individual licenses.

Out of idle curiosity... what happens when you get exactly the same number of successes?

Good question Cain... I guess the writers in their wisdom... never thought anyone would ever get 0.00000000 exactly and produce a divide by zero error .

I'd guess it's the same as any other opposed test (firearms vs. reaction). Firearms + agility... you get 1 hit, he gets 1 hit, you miss.

The world ends due to a divide by zero error.

(A)bort, ®etry, (F)ail?

What assumption am I making?

Books state that the creator can change who is allowed in and out, and is never inhibited by the ward.

Books state if you succeed at mimicing the creator, you are not inhibited by ward.

Books do not state that if you succeed at mimicing the creator, you can change who is allowed in and out.

Therefore, if you mimic the creator, you can not change who is allowed in or out.

@ Cain

Our group decided when both people get the same amount of successes to make it simple that all ties go to the defender. Just like combat, just like spellcasting vs. counter spelling, and just like social tests the ties go to the defender.

Assensing is the offensive move against masking which is the defensive move. So if they tie the defender (masking) wins, although just barely scrapes by. Like the mage takes a long hard look at you and for a second it seems like he sees something, but then writes it off and goes onto the next person in line.

You could also just say the mage makes another assensing test as a tie breaker since he is not quite certain, but I think SR makes a pretty clear argument that ties go to the defender in most situations.

I'd go the other way. Much like invisibility, if you get 1 hit, and they get one hit, they defeat your illusion. You get 1 hit on masking, ward gets 1 hit to figure it out, it sees through.

@Tarantula: I'm pretty sure crizh is saying that the book is agnostic about question at hand, and interpenetrating silence as a "no" is just as much an assumption as taking silence as a "yes". Crizh is saying "See, look how logically, and naturally I interpolate this data point not covered in the RAW". You are saying "You can't interpolate a rule set".

I'm with you on invisibility because there the spotter is actually resisting a spell. It is actually an interesting question who i actually defending when fooling a ward. Is masking more like Disguise or Con in this case?

The book doesn't say that I can't play a great dragon, so I can.

It just doesn't work. Rulesytems tell you what is allowed, anything else isn't.

There are different kinds of not there. There is every reason to think that the MetaHuman table is complete. Great Dragons aren't on it, you can't play them. There is no reason to think that Vehicles descriptions are complete. The RAW doesn't list fuel gauges as a sensor, but would really take that to mean that rigger, even in a Mission game, couldn't send out a scout drone programed to return when it reached bingo fuel?

There isn't a fuel economy or anything listed either. So no, because it doesn't run out.

except for the mods in arsenal that mention it, and the blimp drone that has a lot of it. Sure there are no mechanics, but would you really let a player send a fly spy across the pacific?

That whole point is a side line though. What about pregnancy? RAW doesn't say that how people conceive. But selling organs is RAW so a either a non "fluff" activity like making babies produces a rules entity like a bunch of organs or people don't happen.

The larger question I have for you is where or not think that things don't run out of fuel in SR at all, or whether or not you feel they never run out of fuel on stage? Do you fallow the distinction I'm making?

By the books, they never do. It looks like most of the mods in arse were copy/pasted from rigger 3 revised, which had economy values for vehicles and the like. They left the economy mods in, without any rules behind them. They're fluff mods. Much like engraving a datajack is a fluff mdo.

Baby making isn't relevant to running in the shadows, so there is not rules for it. It doesn't happen in a game.
Running out of fuel has no rules for it, so it doesn't happen in a game.

Sure, in the world it happens, but its irrelevant to shadowrunning.

Being able to tell a ward to let things through it is very relevant, and if not explicitly allowed, is not allowed.

Ok, I can see where you're coming from. I guess I just put a higher priority on my characters acting in accordance with the setting than acting in accordance with RAW. Would you though actually let a the team send a data chip from Seattle to Hong Kong with via fly spy because there are no listed operational limits?

Sure, they could, gridguide and the like are ubiquitous enough that it can easily recharge in most any city.

I was implying a trans-Pacific flight. That is interesting to think about drones having cred sticks build in to buy fuel.

Actually, found the rule. Arse, 103. Standard time of 6 hours for a vehicle.