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Cain
That's why you have 3+ watchers do it. That's been a standard for security for as long as watchers have been around.

I'll leave it to the mathemagicians to tell me the odds of all 3 critically botching at once.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 15 2008, 09:40 PM) *
That's why you have 3+ watchers do it. That's been a standard for security for as long as watchers have been around.

I'll leave it to the mathemagicians to tell me the odds of all 3 critically botching at once.


The issue isn't the critical botch, but the minority report, if you will. One says "yes", one says "no", one says "I don't know". This tells you nothing. Two say "yes" and one says "no", this also tells you nothing. One says "yes" and two say "I don't know" this also tells you nothing. And if 3 say "I don't know"

You can't really be sure if the information your getting is at all reliable.



I've been thinking about how powerful Absorption teamwork can be, and I see no rules saying that it doesn't stack with Centering and Sacrificing, so I'll assume that it does.

Lets start with a Vampire; Grade 3 Initiate; 9 Magic; Centering, Absorption, and Sacrificing; two Sustaining Focuses (Health); Increased Reflexes, 12 Essence, recently fed; and a Body 16 Sapient sacrifice (heavily augmented Troll works).

CT 0, IP 0: We start by pouring Essence into Magic, for a total Magic Rating of 15 and the ability to cast at Force 30.
CT 1, IP1 to CT 2, IP4: Then we absorb 15 points of Mana from Force 2 (and one Force 1) Manabolts cast by a partner with 4IPs.
CT 3 IP 1, kill the Troll

15 Physical + 16 overflow = 31 Points of Drain Reduction; 31 + 15 Absorbtion = 46 points of drain reduction.

That's actually more than a Force 30 Spell will need, which is good, since it means that you don't need a Troll to kill and that you can get by without killing such a troll if you can find one.










Cain
QUOTE
The issue isn't the critical botch, but the minority report, if you will. One says "yes", one says "no", one says "I don't know". This tells you nothing. Two say "yes" and one says "no", this also tells you nothing. One says "yes" and two say "I don't know" this also tells you nothing. And if 3 say "I don't know"

That's why you A) Don't do anything unless something suspicious comes up, like a SIN that says "mundane"; and B) Have a big spirit or mage on standby to do the heavy assensing for you. At astral speeds, one mage can cover a lot of territory.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 15 2008, 10:37 PM) *
That's why you A) Don't do anything unless something suspicious comes up, like a SIN that says "mundane"; and B) Have a big spirit or mage on standby to do the heavy assensing for you. At astral speeds, one mage can cover a lot of territory.


But SINs don't say "mage" or "mundane". They don't mention it at all. Databases might mention that you have magical education or that you have licenses to use certain spells that require them (such as Heal or Powerbolt) or that you've worked as a magician, but the lack of these things is not suspicious.
Mr. Unpronounceable
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 15 2008, 10:04 PM) *
Hrm, did some googling on dice statistics and such...
Looking at this nice image here

<snip>

Not exactly odds I'd bet for when they're going to have issues almost half the time. Like I said, its a very 50/50, with glitches being the winning factor for getting 1 succses.


Gah! mixing up systems again, sorry...

Your numbers are right, Tarantula.

(I think I prefer the botch systems where you don't get screwed every time you raise a skill to an even number, though.)
crit glitch on one die = 1/6 -> crit glitch on two dice = 7/36 (an increase)
Cain
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Sep 15 2008, 06:59 PM) *
But SINs don't say "mage" or "mundane". They don't mention it at all. Databases might mention that you have magical education or that you have licenses to use certain spells that require them (such as Heal or Powerbolt) or that you've worked as a magician, but the lack of these things is not suspicious.

Not by itself, but when combined with a successful assensing, it becomes suspicious enough to pull you aside. Heck, at the airport nowadays, they'll pull you aside because they misspelled your name on the ticket!
masterofm
Yes with a successful assensing attempt. A force 2 spirit can use the 4 for 1 rule and always auto buy a single hit. A watcher spirit can't do this, so is totally useless. A force 1 spirit sucks and the only thing a watcher spirit is really any good for in SR4 is that you can relay messages w/o having to use your summoned higher force spirit (if you know where the other person is of course.) The problem is, is that an airport will have a force 2 to force 6 spirit guarding the choke point where people have to go before getting on a plane. Not every single checkpoint has this. In fact I would say most places don't. They might even have a force 2 spirit bound for a year and a day assensing you as you pass through the mad scanner is how I would probably GM it, but this is at an airport, which is generally a high security situation with 3 to 4 choke points.

In closing - a force 1 spirit is useless a force 2 isn't when it comes to assensing and masking.
Ol' Scratch
Why are you using Watchers for this anyway? They're more useful for tracking someone down or sending a message than some general "okay, go look for any mages."
Cain
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Sep 15 2008, 10:42 PM) *
Why are you using Watchers for this anyway? They're more useful for tracking someone down or sending a message than some general "okay, go look for any mages."

Watchers are cheap and easy, unlikely to cause Drain, and you can have more than one without spending money. You can send out a whole bundle of watchers, with instructions to get a human or a smarter spirit if they encounter anything. You do need to send them out in teams; if one gets sputched, the others have a better chance of making it back to report.
masterofm
How many watchers can you send out in 4th ed? I thought you could only send one or it was equal to your charisma or something. Anyways I still think my last post is valid.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 16 2008, 12:59 AM) *
Watchers are cheap and easy, unlikely to cause Drain, and you can have more than one without spending money. You can send out a whole bundle of watchers, with instructions to get a human or a smarter spirit if they encounter anything. You do need to send them out in teams; if one gets sputched, the others have a better chance of making it back to report.

I love watcher spirits. But random astral patrols are not their forte. Hell, a force 6 spirit will generate only two hits on average for a Drain Value of 2. If you can't soak that... well, you're not exactly someone to bother worrying about. I'm also pretty sure a single force 6 spirit stands a much greater chance of doing pretty much anything more than a pack of watcher spirits will. At least for these purposes.
crizh
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Sep 16 2008, 07:16 AM) *
Hell, a force 6 spirit will generate only two hits on average for a Drain Value of 2.


Assuming that you are talking about the Summoning Test, that would be a Drain value of 4.

I can't be bothered doing the stat's but I'm fairly confident that they will show that there is a very high probability of that being 6+.
Cain
QUOTE (masterofm @ Sep 15 2008, 11:04 PM) *
How many watchers can you send out in 4th ed? I thought you could only send one or it was equal to your charisma or something. Anyways I still think my last post is valid.

Equal to Charisma. That's their one advantage-- you can send them out in groups, to reduce the chances of a critical botch.

QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Sep 15 2008, 11:16 PM) *
I love watcher spirits. But random astral patrols are not their forte. Hell, a force 6 spirit will generate only two hits on average for a Drain Value of 2. If you can't soak that... well, you're not exactly someone to bother worrying about. I'm also pretty sure a single force 6 spirit stands a much greater chance of doing pretty much anything more than a pack of watcher spirits will. At least for these purposes.

Crizh already pointed out that this is not accurate; the drain would be 4. Depending on what your magic is, that may be Physical drain, too. If you're talking about Binding, the spirit gets Force x 2; once again, Drain is double the total successes. So, given that, a Force 6 spirit will have 12 dice to roll against you, resulting in 4 successes and 8 drain, which may even be physical. That's rather a lot.

If you need a lot of spirits to cover a place, watchers are the only way to go. Bound spirits cost too much, and involve too much drain, to be used casually. Watchers are perfect for little jobs.
Zaranthan
You can't have your cake and eat it, too, Cain. Either you're summoning a gang of watchers and sending them out together (which still doesn't improve the results, because you can't Teamwork an Assensing test and your chances of success are <50%) or you're scattering them over a large area (where they can't help each other). Pick an argument.
masterofm
It's not that 1 or 3 watcher spirits will be better. They suck at the task at hand. Having three watcher spirits is like having 3 stooges instead of one. They are dumb, and they suck at assensing.

They will most likely tell you three different things at once and probably end up getting into a slap fight. (they have a logic of 1 and a charisma of 1) As a mage you then have to take information from basically idiots and get a whole bunch of useless information. A force 2 spirit can auto buy a single hit and always know if the person is mundane or awakened and if they are healthy or not. Force 2 spirits have 100% of giving correct information, force 1 spirits are almost like flipping a coin. You will get different responses every time if you are using a force 1 spirit, while again force 2 = 100%. It takes more hits then that to find out how powerful they are. However even more problematic is that say if you are at an airport there are thousands of people who would pass through it every single day. It means that if you send in a force 1 spirit that spirit will critical glitch more often and view people as magically active then there are actually magically active people passing through the detectors. After that the mage has to send a more powerful spirit (a force 6) and assense every single "magical" person to find out how powerful they actually are as a force 6 spirit has a better chance of assensing magically active people. Although the mage might have the spirit assense 30 people at a time to save on tasks..... anyways a force one spirit is lamez. Only a force 2 could give you any real information.

Page 183 on the assensing table.

It takes four hits to find out how powerful their magic actually is. Three hits gives you a vague ballpark, and two gives you if you have seen their signature before.

In conclusion a force one spirit sucks.
Earlydawn
Logically, the "on-call" mage who may be responsible for policing five or six different checkpoints is also the guy who conjured the watchers (relative rarity of mages 'n all), so he's only going to realistically have four watchers max, assuming a higher-than-average charisma. Realistically, don't you think his watchers would be broken up between those checkpoints too?
crizh
I can't even remember how you guys started fighting about this OT scenario.

I can't help thinking that there are better ways to do this. Watchers do suck at this. In excess of 1 in 3 Assensing attempts result in a false negative and as many as 1 in 36 result in a false positive.

How many SINless Mages attempt to sneak through an Airport every day? How many mundanes go through the Airport? False Positives would create a vast workload for security staff.

You would be better off with a Mage using Mage-Sight Fiber-Optics or a number of Low Force Spirits under Long Term Binding.

Can we get back on Topic?

Somebody was suggesting that Extended Masking was crucial but I don't understand why?

If you use Masking to sneak through a Ward you can bring anything you like through it with you. The Ward thinks you are it's creator.

QUOTE (BBB, p185)
Mana barriers do not affect their creators, who can see through them or pass through them at will and allow others to do so as well.
Tarantula
It sees you as its creator, but the foci still have your signature on them. You can't change their signatures without extended masking. Extended masking lets the foci look like they are the craetors foci and pass also.
crizh
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 16 2008, 05:58 PM) *
the foci still have your signature on them. You can't change their signatures without extended masking.



And?

So?

What?

If I create a Ward I can let anyone and all their Foci, Spells and Spirits through it without restriction.
Tarantula
I think thats more a funciton of having an actual link to the ward. You don't have a link to the ward, you just look like its creator, which it will always let through. You can't tell it to let your foci through though, because you didn't create it, and don't have a link to it.
crizh
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 16 2008, 06:35 PM) *
You don't have a link to the ward, you just look like its creator


If the Ward can differentiate between someone that appears to be it's creator and someone that has the 'creator link' then it can spot someone using Masking pretty easily?

Nes pa?
Tarantula
Its c'est ne pas. And no. It can't differentiate between someone linked and someone not linked. The link is how the creator can tell it to do things like let someone in. Or how he is alerted when it is breached.
crizh
[Apologies for the rubbish French, I usually do German, it's my wife does French but she's out and can't correct my blunders atm..]

No.

If there is any functional difference between a Wards creator and someone Masking the creators aura then Wards can be trivially re-designed to be impervious to Masking.

Cain
After examining the rules, it seems that it was intended to let foci pass through. Street Magic says the ward no longer inhibits the incoming mage. If it blocked your foci, I'd call that pretty inhibiting.

It appears that the big advantage of Extended Masking isn't that it lets you bypass wards, it's that it lets you conceal foci and spells.
Tarantula
QUOTE (crizh @ Sep 16 2008, 10:49 AM) *
[Apologies for the rubbish French, I usually do German, it's my wife does French but she's out and can't correct my blunders atm..]

No.

If there is any functional difference between a Wards creator and someone Masking the creators aura then Wards can be trivially re-designed to be impervious to Masking.


No. They can't. Otherwise everyone would have already done it.

Its fairly specific, that if you succeed, the ward no longer inhibits YOU. Not your foci, not your spells, but only YOU.
crizh
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 16 2008, 07:34 PM) *
No. They can't. Otherwise everyone would have already done it.

Its fairly specific, that if you succeed, the ward no longer inhibits YOU. Not your foci, not your spells, but only YOU.


....because it thinks you are it's creator.

It is analogous to spoofing a drone. You can do anything it's owner can, otherwise there would be a way to re-write the 'program' to prevent that sort of 'spoofing.'

Tarantula
No, it isn't. Because spoofing IS sending orders.

This is analgous to having a counterfeit security badge. It lets you turn the turnstile for yourself. It doesn't let you turn it for you, plus 5 other people.
Mäx
QUOTE (crizh @ Sep 16 2008, 09:50 PM) *
....because it thinks you are it's creator.

It reginices you aura as the same as it's creator, but you still don't have any kind of link with the ward so you can not make it do anything.
crizh
You are missing the point.

If that were true you could design an advanced Ward that did not automatically allow it's creator free passage.

The creator would still be able to pass one time instructions down this link you have concocted allowing himself and anyone else exactly the same access they currently enjoy.

This Ward would be completely impervious to Masking.

In about six minutes nobody would use the old Ward formula but the new SOTA one that was secure.

It's not that I don't understand the mechanic you describe, it's that your mechanic is fundamentally flawed, it does not achieve the types of access and circumvention methods the rules require.
Tarantula
Crizh, unless you can't. Because magic dosen't work that way. Why? Thats how the rules are written.

SR4, 185, "Mana barriers do not affect their creators, who can see through them or pass through them at will and allow others to do so as well. Any attack on a mana barrier or attempt to break through is immediately felt by the creator."

As well as SM, 124, "The most covert way of bypassing a ward is to take advantage of the fact that every ward allows its creator to pass through it freely."
Ol' Scratch
Actually, no, not everyone would use such a ward. Not by a long shot. It would impede everyday function for most any Awakened character with active magic use. That includes sustained spells, dual-natured beings (which are quite common in magical security), quickened spells, active adept powers, and so on and so forth. You'd have to turn everything off (a non-option for dual-natured beings and quickened spells) and then back on again (yay Drain) each and every time you go through. And astral patrols would have to actually destroy it to get through. Which, all in all, sucks for magical security at a site... far more than it would for any intruders (in which little to nothing changes).

As for Enhanced Masking: It's painfully clear that the rules for fooling a ward were all but cut-and-paste with a total disregard that they split Masking into three different metamagics. Masking is pretty damn specific that it only applies to the magician's own aura, and Enhanced Masking is even more specific that if you want to affect your foci and spells with Masking, you need Enhanced Masking. Just because there was some lazy writing for the Fooling Wards section doesn't change that. Masking = magician. Enhanced Masking = everything else.

Which, as previously mentioned, makes Masking only a stepping stone metamagic since you can do exactly the same thing without it (and either way, you have to deactive all of your foci and spells). The only thing Masking itself is good for is when you're astrally projecting and come across a ward. And even then, you can't have any active foci on you unless you also have Enhanced Masking.
crizh
QUOTE (SR4, 185)
"Mana barriers do not affect their creators, who can see through them or pass through them at will and allow others to do so as well."


I must have missed the bit where that quote mentions a unique mental link that exists between creator and ward that is the sole method of issuing such commands to a ward.

You have concocted this link as I have concocted a methodology for creating Advanced Wards.

Such Wards are not without precedence. My argument holds as much water as yours.

Neither is explicitly supported by the RAW.

Either both positions are reasonable or neither is.

In either case my original point stands.
Tarantula
The text specifies that only the owner can allow other people through them at will, or allow others to do so.

The fooling a ward text only says that the ward will not inhibit the magician who fools it.

Therefore, the magician who fools the ward is not the owner, and cannot allow other people through them at will, nor can he allow others to do so.

There is a link between creator and ward, it is not said that this is how the creator sends commands to a ward. With the way the rules work, it is the most likely explanation.
crizh
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Sep 16 2008, 08:22 PM) *
Actually, no, not everyone would use such a ward. Not by a long shot. It would impede everyday function for most any Awakened character with active magic use. That includes sustained spells, dual-natured beings (which are quite common in magical security), quickened spells, active adept powers, and so on and so forth. You'd have to turn everything off (a non-option for dual-natured beings and quickened spells) and then back on again (yay Drain) each and every time you go through.


You missed the point.

You would still be able to tell the Ward to let you and all the other stuff through.

You would just have to tell it to do so instead of having it happen automatically.

A small price to pay for an impenetrable Ward.
Ol' Scratch
That would require wards to be sentient. They have a word and rules for that already in place. It's called "spirits." Likewise, even if they could make decisions and follow orders (something wards can't do, same goes for spells), it would still have to be able to recognize its creator. Which would be done by its aura. Which could still be fooled with Masking.
crizh
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 16 2008, 08:35 PM) *
The text specifies that only the owner can allow other people through them at will, or allow others to do so.

The fooling a ward text only says that the ward will not inhibit the magician who fools it.

Therefore, the magician who fools the ward is not the owner, and cannot allow other people through them at will, nor can he allow others to do so.

There is a link between creator and ward, it is not said that this is how the creator sends commands to a ward. With the way the rules work, it is the most likely explanation.


You're having a laugh, right?

You've split that sentence in half and permitted a Masked mage the first benefit and denied him the second for no discernible reason that is supported by the text.

The quote permits the owner to

a) Pass through the Ward.

and

b) Permit others to pass through the Ward.

A Masked mage may pass through the Ward because he is the owner as far as the Ward is concerned.

If he can do (a) he can do (b) because both are permitted by the same criteria.

Unless an explicit exception exists in the text that I have not seen...
crizh
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Sep 16 2008, 08:38 PM) *
That would require wards to be sentient.


Why?

What does it require Wards to do that they do not already do?

Have you read the Advanced Wards in Street Magic?
Tarantula
QUOTE (crizh @ Sep 16 2008, 12:46 PM) *
A Masked mage may pass through the Ward because he is the owner as far as the Ward is concerned.

If he can do (a) he can do (b) because both are permitted by the same criteria.

Unless an explicit exception exists in the text that I have not seen...


You're wrong. The quote, from street magic, 124, "If the intruding magician succeeds, the ward no longer inhibits them. If the ward wins, it continues to inhibit the intruding magician, but does not alert its creator until the intruding magician tries to force his way through by another method"

It does not say, if the magician succeeds, the ward treats him as its creator. It says that it no longer inhibits them. That is all it does.
Cain
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 16 2008, 12:04 PM) *
You're wrong. The quote, from street magic, 124, "If the intruding magician succeeds, the ward no longer inhibits them. If the ward wins, it continues to inhibit the intruding magician, but does not alert its creator until the intruding magician tries to force his way through by another method"

It does not say, if the magician succeeds, the ward treats him as its creator. It says that it no longer inhibits them. That is all it does.

Actually, it also doesn't say "owner's aura", it says "an aura approved to freely move through the ward". So, it doesn't have to be the owner's aura; but the owner doesn't have to be present to let an aura through, either.
crizh
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 16 2008, 09:11 PM) *
Actually, it also doesn't say "owner's aura", it says "an aura approved to freely move through the ward". So, it doesn't have to be the owner's aura; but the owner doesn't have to be present to let an aura through, either.


Although the Owners Aura is the only one that you are certain is permitted through and is the only one you are able to track by assensing the Ward.
crizh
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 16 2008, 09:04 PM) *
It says that it no longer inhibits them.



And why does it not inhibit him?
Tarantula
QUOTE (crizh @ Sep 16 2008, 01:15 PM) *
And why does it not inhibit him?


Because the book says that when you fool a ward via those rules, you are not inhibited by it.
crizh
QUOTE (Street Magic, p124)
The most covert way of bypassing a ward is to take advantage of the fact that every ward allows its creator to pass through it freely.


Because it identifies you as it's creator......
Tarantula
QUOTE (crizh @ Sep 16 2008, 01:34 PM) *
Because it identifies you as it's creator......


No. Because the rules say so.

The explanation most likely is that it sees you as its creator. Much like the most likely explanation for why the creator can allow people to pass is via his link to the ward. But neither is said in the books.
Mäx
QUOTE (crizh @ Sep 16 2008, 11:34 PM) *
Because it identifies you as it's creator......

Becouse it identifies your aura as one that is permitted to go through.
crizh
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 16 2008, 09:35 PM) *
[Not Listening]


The rules quite clearly state that you can pass through a Ward by disguising your Aura as the Ward's Creator's Aura.

If there were any other way for a Ward to differentiate between it's Creator and any other Astral Form other than solely by examining their Aura's then Masking would not be an effective tactic for penetrating Wards.

The only way a Ward has of identifying it's creator is through exposure to his Aura.

If it could receive instructions through a Psychic Link that could only have come from it's Creator then Masking would be an ineffective circumvention strategy.
HappyDaze
QUOTE
Although the Owners Aura is the only one that you are certain is permitted through and is the only one you are able to track by assensing the Ward.

This could be a good time to assence those dual-natured security paracritters employed on the warded grounds. It's likely that their auras can get you through some of the wards and you don't need to track them down, they'll come looking for you!
crizh
QUOTE (Mäx @ Sep 16 2008, 09:40 PM) *
Becouse it identifies your aura as one that is permitted to go through.


And in almost every circumstance, certainly the one we are discussing, that would be it's Creator's Aura.

If it had some sort of secure Psychic Link to it's creator it could simply 'ping' him and see right through the Masking attempt.
crizh
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Sep 16 2008, 09:49 PM) *
This could be a good time to assence those dual-natured security paracritters employed on the warded grounds. It's likely that their auras can get you through some of the wards and you don't need to track them down, they'll come looking for you!



That would certainly work and you most definitely would have to de-activated all of your Foci.
HappyDaze
QUOTE
That would certainly work and you most definitely would have to de-activated all of your Foci.

Unless you have extended Masking... cool.gif

And if you don't, it only takes you a few seconds to reactivate them on the other side. Usually this isn't a problem unless you've got other active security measures taking shots at you - and if you do then don't worry about pinging the ward, just break on through.
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