I'm starting a shadowrun campaign sometime in the near future(I just got the runners companion which fixes one of my biggest gripes with the system: the character creation), but there is one thing that still annoys me a lot, a magicians direct combat spells (manabolt, stunball, ect). I just find them to be too powerful, they do a lot of damage as the average target only gets one attribute to avoid and resist damage(no armor/skills in normal circumstances), and they have such a low drain you can even overcast them with relatively little damage to yourself(a force 10 manabolt will outright kill many people, and that's only 5 drain). In addition they also make the astral combat skill fairly worthless(heck, banishing for that matter, manabolt is usually more effective).

What I was thinking of doing was either a)removing direct damage spells entirely, or raising their drain to be comparable with indirect damage spells. Does anyone else think direct damage spells are too powerful as written, and if so, how do/would you handle it?

Some say yes. Others say no. Multiple 'solutions' have been presented. Use the fucking search - this has come up numerous times in the past, and just about every point that can be made, has been made a dozen times.

I've proposed a simple solution.

Since all the direct combat spells are mostly invisible and have lower drain than for example a fireball...

Direct Combat Spells: Basic Drain Code +2
Indirect Combat Spells: Basic Drain Code -2

If you insist on changing the rules, just make spells use a formula similar to ranged combat resistance tests. Counterspelling taking the place of armor, Indirect Spells getting a -1 to -2 "AP" bonus for being more physical than magical, Stun spells getting a +1 to +2 "AP" penalty, and using Arcana (which anyone can learn) in place of Dodge.

You're still going ot get your ass handed to you unless you have a mage around protecting you. And that would be the point. Much like how you want a hacker or technomancer around when you're getting your PAN hacked to bits. IC help slow it down a little, but an enemy hacker is gonna get past it with little trouble.

Yes read the previous topics, it has already been discussed a lot. I'd just like to add that it depends on your game. If the runners are more likely to face drones than flesh and blood guards, mana combat spells will be a lot less useful.

My usual bit in these topics is that most GMs should be using more drones, more corpgoons firing around corniers using smartgun cameras instead of exposing themselves, and in general don't forget about the warding and background counts.

Question 1: Are you imposing visibility and cover modifiers on the caster? Those dice pools drop right quick when you start including the penalties that I think you're supposed to be including.

[EDIT]Question 1a: Are your opponents taking cover in combat? If not, why is your GM leaving people just standing around in the middle of a firefight?

Question 2: Does your GM remember to include the result of an elemental effect? Most Indirect Combat spells have elemental effects, so they do more than just straight-up damage. If your GM isn't including these effects when you throw a spell, I think she's doing it wrong.

Also if in a corp enviroment start using more Manatech. Hell the haven lillies are great, and they look pretty inoculous. BioFiber running through the walls and what type of building in 2070 does not have Wards or Mana/Physical Barries. They are dirt cheap and any mage can put them up.
If running in Seattle you have to contend with light,medium, and heavy rain daily. Not to mention any type of fog or mist.
The enviroment is your toy. Not only can it give your runners cover mods, but it also detracts from thier visibility checks.

DC spells are meant to be nasty. It makes the GM use his wits instead of the dice or crying FOUL the rules are broken. DC spells have been nasty through 3 other versions of SR.

Direct combat spells aren't too powerful.

A magician with Magic 5 and Spellcasting 9 throws a Mana Bolt 5 at a character with Willpower 4. The spell requires a complex action. Yes, on the average, the magician will score 3 hits to the target's 1, and the target will take 7 points of damage. But keep in mind that "on the average" means that 50% of the time, the magician will do worse, and 50% of the time, the target will do better. If the magician scores one less hit and the target just one more, they tie, and the target takes no damage at all. Whether the spell has any effect or not, the magician has just announced himself as a magician, because the threshold to notice that spell is 1, and now faces the possibility of drain damage.

Even if the target takes the 7 points, the target still survives, and will be blasting back at the magician on the target's next pass.

And this example presumes no negative modifiers on the magician, and no spell defense on the target. Except that a lot of the people shadowrunners are going to be throwing spells at *will* be spell defended, making the magician's odds of success all that much worse. The above example presumes that the target does not use Edge to resist. The above example presumes the magician does not glitch.

Yes, overcasting is an option, but it raises the danger from drain considerably.

Compare to a street samurai firing a heavy pistol loaded with explosive. The samurai is pushing 6P -1AP with 14 dice, and can fire the weapon twice - simple action, simple action. Versus an opponent with Reaction 5, Body 6, Ballistic 8, the samurai will average 5 points of damage with each shot, for a total of ten at the end of the pass. There's no danger of drain. And that's just the heavy pistol - if the samurai uses a shotgun, submachinegun, or assault rifle, his ability to deal out death and judgment bounces up significantly.

So, no, direct combat spells are not overbalanced.

Stunbolt is the only one that comes to mind. You can crank it into next week with minimal risk to the caster and the target is exponentially more likely to have a low Will vs. a low Body stat.

The cost to benefit ratio for this spell in simply enormous.

Oh yeah. That always comes up. SR4 likes you doing stun damage instead of killing people. Take stick and shock for instance.

Stunbolt sucks if you want to do anything to something not alive though. Drone? Your screwed. Smartgun stuck around a corner? Nope. Locked door? Too bad.

Powerbolt is much more utility imo.

So are steel toe boots...

Having lived in Seattle for 20 years, including several El Nino years, I have to say that fog is rare, heavy rain is just as rare, and medium rain is uncommon. But if you need to make up for it, it can be sunny and rainy at the same time in Seattle. So, feel free to apply those glare penalties!

Lockpick, anyone? What about a maglock passkey?

If you absolutely must blast your way through a door, and don't have any explosives on hand, then a good, old-fashioned Lightning Bolt will do the trick nicely. Not only will it open the door, it'll fry any electronics nearby.

Um. In a thread about direct combat spells that's sort of the point there chief.

Actually, did you note that lightning bolt only does stun damage now! (electrical spells and effects)

Drones, doors, and the like aren't damaged, only roll to avoid secondary effects (disabling the electronics for 2+ net hits combat turns). If you're lucky you can make sparks and start something burning I guess for fire damage! You've been playing too much of the 'game that causes cancer' where lightning bolts now blow things down (I prefered the old school billiard ball of doom version w/ it's wild reflections).

Acid strikes me as the best universal lockpick right now. Melt the maglock, melt the latch, melt the hinges, just melt a hole in the wall. Fire can also do it but risks a full fledged blaze.

I choose to ignore that line, and assume Lightning does full physical damage. Because if they actually thought being hit by a million amps of lightning would do only stun damage, I'd have to find that [censored] little git and [censored][censored][censored].



This post edited for content.

Why not give the mage their toy? Like people have said in this thread, it's not that great. And don't forget all the penalties that the mage pays (and should suffer) for the power of direct combat skills.

First of all, it costs a lot to be a mage. I like to generalize my characters, with multiple speecialisatios, but every mage I've come up with, it's quite hard. The magic attribute eats a whole lot of points that other characters don't have to deal with. Then there's the magician quality, which is another 15 points. Then there's spellcasting, counterspelling, assensing, summoning, binding, banishing, etcetera. Also, they need to have a high Willpower And another pumped drain stat like Intuition, Logic, or Charisma. And once you get in the game, you're a karma sink, so good luck increasing any of your attributes or skills.

Second of all, geek the mage. He's awakened. Have the enemy mage (who should really have a high counterspelling, that's what sec-mages do) pick up the aura, or the well trained security guards who stake their lives on identifying enemy mages should figure it out. If they know who the mage is, he better put his head down.

Cain: actually the new interpretation of lightning bolt makes a lot of sense to me... it can still be quite lethal (overflow from stun to lethal). And the 'taser' knockout effects are really nice.

As far as damage goes... people have survives being in cars hit by real storm lightning, because it flows through the metal shell w/ minimal damage. It's not as if there aren't 3 other elements to pick from.

I like how they made them unique. Acid is great for just raw damage and breaking and entering... Fire for the trogdor fans... Lightning is great for a nonlethal option and mes effects (can even disable and knockout drones w/o hurting them... your rigger will love you for getting him new toys!). Cold is the odd man out, it doesn't really do much... they should have given more on how brittleness helps (I'd say reduce hardness/barrier/armor by some factor related to hits.... EG: flash freeze the citymaster it's armor gets brittle lowering it's hardened armor for the rest of the team, or freeze the wall so the orc can do his kool-aid man oh-yeah impression and bust through).

If you look at the lightning spells in the book, though, they do P damage, not S. Which might make Cain happy, but is a bit confusing, since it contradicts how they handle all other electrical damage.

A force 10 manabolt doesn't do a lot more damage than a sniper rifle, and unless you're firing at a troll in mil-spec armour, only slightly harder to soak. Also, 5 drain requires 15 drain dice to soak on average, meaning more often than not you'll be taking 1-3 physical from a force 10 manabolt, whereas the sniper just has to spend a couple actions reloading after every 15-or-so shots.

Yes, spells are powerful, but they aren't so much more powerful than guns that they're unbalancing.



All the 'other' electrical damage in the book is orders of magnitude lower voltage than a full-on lightning bolt.

My solution, there are two versions of the lightning spells, one that does stun, one that does physical, problem solved. I do a similar thing with a few of the other indirect types. If my player wants a knockout lightning spell, they got it, if they want a lethal one, sure thing. If you want both, you gotta pay for it.

Reading the arguments about direct combat spells, I am thinking that maybe a large portion of my problems is that I wasn't tailoring my players opposition to work against them, namely I rarely used astral and drone security. I also ran some tests and I found that generally speaking, you do more damage with two gun shots then with one manabolt, assuming similar dice pools, and you don't hurt yourself doing so(but manabolt has a slew of other advantages). I still think direct combat spells are a little too cheep on the drain for what they do, but I'll play with them some more before I nerf them.

By the way for the OP if you're starting a new campaign I'd say changing the rules should come after giving them a shot. Errors and misconceptions will probably overshadow any inherant balance differences.

actually, the zappy spike strips in arsenal also do P damage. a lot of it, too.

Well, they kinda have to. They're meant to be used on vehicles and vehicles have hardened armor which ignores stun. It would be pretty weird circumstances that result in a runner being zapped directly by a spike strip.

... sorry, forgot we were talking about PCs here. They'll find a way.

I would just like to say that, technically, vehicles do not have Hardened armor. Hardened armor - if the modified DV does not exceed the modified Armor, the attack does no damage. Regular armor (including vehicles) - if the modified DV does not exceed the modified Armor, the attack does Stun damage.

Vehicles just never take Stun damage, so it just functions like Hardened armor.

I found it easy to wrap my head around once I realized that it's not an electricity-damage spell, but a Physical-damage spell with an electrical elemental effect.

Cold, IIRC, can force vehicles to make a crash test, by either freezing the road or icing up the lifting surfaces.


The issue is that it's harder to get dice to soak spells with. You get willpower + counterspelling, and that's about it. As for the drain, that's what Edge is for. Or, you spend Edge on the initial test; not only do you add 5-6 dice, but they explode, so you can get 10+ successes.

Yes, you can spend edge on the drain, but that's a point of edge the sniper never had to spend - which he can then use against the next bullet that flies his way.

I'm not trying to say that spells aren't powerful (moreso than guns), I'm just saying the power differences aren't game-breaking, and spells come with their own unique drawbacks (possibility of hurting yourself each time you cast, less shots per round than an automatic weapon, etc...)

Why does everyone forget about casting multiple spells at once? Its great utility for only a +1 drain per extra spell.

It can be a viable tactic at times, but you are also splitting your dice pool, which weakens the dice pool advantage that mages normally enjoy.

Yup, about the only way your going to get a significant damage increase over two pistol shots that way is by over casting, and over casting two spells with +1 drain when one of them might not even hit because your dice pool is small, that's usually not such a good idea. Twin casting a pair of low force lightning bolts though gives you a very good chance of knocking them out just long enough to run away though.

One thing i feel that has never been properly adressed is the REASONING behind the higher drain for indirect combat spells and more clearcut rules for the secondary effect.

indirect spells are by far WORSE for a shadowrunner as they are:
A: Highly Visible
B: Higher Drain
C: More limited use (Only usable on the physical plane)
D: No hard rules for secondary effects
E: Target gets to A: Dodge and B: Soak

direct spells on the other hand:
A: Invisible to the naked eye - mightn be visible on target
B: Low drain
C: Can be used on either plain
D: Target gets ONE resistance test and no dodge and often at most 6D6
E: Rules are clear on the effect on the target

I can understand that there was a slightly higher drain when they were Physical manipulations spells that allowed non-combat mages to create such things and keeping the two different spell types separate.

Now on the other hand the spells are basically the same with only the following difference:

Mana Spells: Invisible stealth type attack spells
Indirect Spells: Visible attack spells with elemental effect

They should at least have the same drain instead of some old copy-paste that seems very popular these days from SR2 to SR3 and to SR4

A good example of this was the cheese gun AV Sliver Gun that went from:
(SR2)Light Pistol (Hvy Pistol Ranges) - (SR3) Hvy Pistol - (SR4) Hvy Pistol

Force 10 Mana bolt only allows Mages to kill one, maybe 2, possibly 3 people/targets, without passing out from drain. Its the other guys with 100's of rounds of ammo, are trolls, and have armor of 20 or higher (before cover), explosives, grenades, Panthers, Missiles, Poison Gases, etc... who kill bunches and bunches of people. The Combat MAge is proving to be almost as annoying, but he rarely casts spells because of how much he fears drain. He quickly realized if he takes himself down 5 or more boxes the enemy usually takes him all the way through Stun and into Physical very quickly. So he casts things like Armor, and such, then enters into the fighting. With his guns.

No kidding, I once took a 450 volt 15 amp hit and it felt extremely physical to me. Thankfully it threw me rather then grabbed me, hence my being alive to post this.

Force 6 with 6 hits works plenty good to kill people. Damage of 12, and most people won't get more than 2 hits on their resist, which is still a damage of 10.

And the drain is considerably better.



As far as splitting dicepool for casting multiple spells, yes. Most mages already have 6+ dice ahead of their target. Casting a second spell and having just 1-3 dice over them instead of overwhelming is still very likely to make them eat both spells. It works better for those mages who aren't as strong/have taken some ware and can only cast up to force 3 or 4. No point in getting 7 hits if you only can use 3 of them.

Yeah, multicasting's biggest problem is splitting the dice pool.

Not that it doesn't have it's uses... Well I'm going to put most of the dice pool into this combat spell at force 5 (on say 9 dice... enough that 5 hits is a definate possibility). But I'm going to put 5 more dice into this improved invis spell... so that the gunbunny doesn't perforate me as I run for cover after doing so!

Or another situation... I'm going to cast improved invis AND levitate on myself at once and fly away. (even better if your mentor spirit gives you a bonus to one school, and your specialization a bonus to the other giving you more dice to play with). Improved invis + stealth is another good one-two combo.

Another use of them for combat and touch spells... I'm going to cast 3 force3 death touch (touch range direct spell) at once and make 3 individual attacks for a mere 3 drain (3/2-2+2==1 drain per, or 2 drain per force5). This is also where it gets wiggy as the GM might make you roll a single touch attack to deliver all 3 spells through rather than allowing you to run the guys reaction out. (indirect elementals w/ their +3 drain to start this rarely is an issue)

I'd say its a single touch attack, as you then cast the multiple spells at once during the touch. The rules support it.

I agree Tarantula.. it's a reasonable reading of the rules, it's silent on the matter we best I can tell. As a player I might WANT to only make a single touch attack as well (against a high reaction, low wilpower for example, I'm more likely to increase damage w/ multiple castings than more net hits, 2 force5's is effectively force10 plus net hits if the target isn't likely to resist for only 2 drain, while single force10 is highly overcast physical drain w/ 3drain).

But at the same time nothing in the rules stops you from touching multiple enemies in w/ individual castings, which would make multiple attacks necessary.

IMO: easiest way to handle it is to split the touch attack pool, if multiple attacks are desired. I don't see a reason to force only a single touch, or force multiple individual attacks.

I agree that is the only way to handle it. Unarmed attacks can be done on multiple people, by splitting the pool. So split your unarmed attack in half to touch 2 people, then you can split spellcasting to cast on both.

So go for a stunball. Comparable Drain, similar effect. And you can hit more than one target at a time.

Mage tactics are different than combat monsters. You hide behind cover, and pop up to cast a spell or two. You also occasionally use buff spells to help out a teammate (either with something that reduces the Sustaining penalty, or with a focus). If you do it right, you won't take much drain, if any. Once things have settled down, you help with first aid, then use Heal on the remaining damage. Here's where you're most likely to take Drain, but since the action is over, you can sleep it off. Even a combat mage should follow a similar pattern.

I agree there are other strategies and spells the mage can use. My main point is the Mage will pass out from drain well before he kills as many people as the guys with guns, grenades, missiles, etc... will.

Like the current game I am running is loosely based around Resident Evil and Raccoon City ( I am even using the name and the map), and they were fighting 20 Zombies at one time. The guys with guns won the day, not the spell casters. The Shaman did save the Phys Ad from imminent death, though. However, the Riggers Drone with the grenade launcher is what won them the battle and allowed them to withdraw before even more showed up.

So I do not see the mage/spellcasters as anything close to an overwhelming threat. I don't see it changing much when they get to being able to cast Force 10 spells. Being able to fire all those guns, throw those grenades, shoot those missiles, etc... does far more damage far more reliably IMO.

Not if he's choosing his spells right, and casting carefully, using the right spell at the right time.


A good old fashioned ghoul hunt? I loved those!

But the last one I was on with a mage, I just went full astral, then flew my astral form about two stories over the ghoul's heads. Then, I started throwing low-force manabolts at them. No, I wasn't killing them outright, but since they were dual-natured, I could blast them all day, and they couldn't reach me. So, I just stuck to spells I knew wouldn't cause any drain, and pecked them to death.

BTW: A force 10 spell isn't really that scary. It's a Force 10 spell + Force 10 Aid sorcery + Edge 6 = One huge Boom.

Zombie attack? Physical barrier ftw.

When I was reading up on the mana spells it talked like it could only harm living creatures. Zombies, not Ghouls, are not alive, just animated. At least with how I have them envisioned. I didn't want to go with the intelligence suggested or the mutations, except Alice. She is around.

Both are viable targets for mana spells. Ghouls are just diseased metahumans and zombies are spirits.

Ah. well thats a big mistake I have been making for my mage player. I did not know zombies were considered to be spirits, and therefore live targets for mana spells to work against. Thanks.

It really depends on what kind of zombies you are using. The default zombie is just a corpse possessed by a spirit from a possession tradition, but if you want a truely undead being go right ahead. Shadowrun is pretty much designed to let you include anything you want.

You can also use Shedim. But in both cases, it's a spirit animating a corpse, and that spirit is fair game for a mana spell. I suppose you could use a spell to animate a corpse, but you couldn't sustain more than a few that way. Other than that, though, zombies are always going to be fair game for manabolt and stunball.

Well, in Resident Evil, as best I understand it, the zombies are animated by a virus. Their humanity is destroyed, their body altered, and they crave flesh, and go after it in a pretty mindless and straight forward fashion. So I guess I could get away with no spirits being involved, like I have been doing.