I haven't seen the movie, but they sound more like Ghouls than zombies. Ghouls being infected and hungry for flesh. Of course they like it already dead, but there's a handy way to turn living people into dead people. Ghouls are more like the creatures in I Am Legend. Check the stats on those things - they move like Olympic athletes!

The closest Shadowrun has to an old style Shaun of the Dead zombie is, as Cain says, a corpse possessed by a low-force spirit. There are shedim - same principle, but they don't shuffle - they sprint.

Faster than you do.

Like Knasser said, that would be ghouls. Which fit your concept perfectly, except for one tidbit-- they're still alive, so they're still affected by mana spells. Would that be acceptable to you?

As far as I can tell the zombies in Resident Evil are dead, and pretty mindless. Virus' are "alive", but nothing I see as being defined to have a soul or spirit force to them. Now they have shown that some of their previous knowledge can resurface, so I can see some argument of a supernatural element to the zombies, but I could also argue that the Virus has some kind of ability to adapt the body and elevate it to a higher level of capabilities. IE the adaptive survival properties of virus' and bacteria expressed in a new way.

Which I think would further feed into how the "mutations" exist, such as Alice, and that friend of hers in the second flick.


Still, an argument can certainly be made for magic and lesser types of spirits being involved.

So I just need to decide which way I want to go.

you seem to be confused about your definition of alive. just because something is not sentient does not mean it is not alive. a rabid dog may not have much of a personality. and is agressive and whatnot, but that doesn't make it dead, it just makes it an infected, but still alive, dog.

about the only way i could see the proposed creatures being immune to mana spells is if the virus somehow converts the skeleton/muscles of a person to be like a robot... and that's just *really* straining my suspension of disbelief to even propose that a virus could take a corpse and modify it's skeleton and muscles to basically become a robot piloted by this virus. i mean, i'm no expert on viruses (virii?) or anything, but that just seems like it's just a bit beyond the capability of a virus to pull off.

While a virus technically isn't "alive", it needs living tissue to do its thing. In the case of these zombies, they're still technically "alive", even if they're not sentient. You can manabolt a potted plant if you want to, since the only special targeting requirement is that they be alive.

If a plant is considered to be alive in SR then a virus would be too. I was thinking spirit or soul=alive, but if anything that meets the definition of living counts, then it works.

Thats still a hotly debated topic by modern scientists.

Anyways, while they are not viruses per say, a few of the pre made missions have used awakened dual-natured bacteria that clings to astral forms and illuminates in the physical plane.

Viruses aren't truly "alive", they're just strands of DNA and RNA. In other words, they're just big molecules, and molecules aren't really "alive". They mesh with living cells, and reproduce via parasitism. They don't have to be alive, they just need living cells to do their thing. If you really want to get technical, there's these things called prions. They're essentially a protein, but are infectious in the same way viruses are. You may have herd of "Mad Cow Disease"? That's caused by these rogue proteins. Proteins are definitely not "alive", but they function on living cells.

As far as bacteria go-- bacteria are alive. You're talking about Fluorescing Astral Bacteria, and that's a set of nastiness that's worthy of its own thread.

That's a pretty big leap of logic to make. Plants and virii are several orders of magnitude of complexity apart.

Prions are not infectious the same as a virus is, prions must be eaten/ingested. Virus' can not only be eaten, but inhaled, get in through your eyes, in through a cut, etc...

As for being alive, yeah, they don't meet the official definition, but they do reproduce via their parasitism, and they do strive to survive, reproduce, and infect over and over. So I think they are alive and the "Old Guard" are simply too stubborn to broaden their horizons. Personally I think their parasitic nature for reproduction is highly adaptive for their survival. We can't treat viral infections as readily as we can bacterial. Of course we are loosing that ability versus bacteria because people can't take their meds for 10 days, or whatever.

Anyways, I think viruses are alive. Close enough, for spell purposes. So I have decided to allow mana to work against even these zombies.

??

Maybe. I grant you a tree has billions of cells and a virus is a single cell. Virus' are highly mobile, very tough, can survive many changes to their environment, so are far tougher then pretty much any plant.

Plants, over all, are pretty simple, their highest degree of complexity is in their roots and the cells found there. Still, I think a virus cell, when compared to plant cells, are very comparable. The virus cell is far more adaptive and capable of survival then any plant cell.

So its really dependent on what your criteria is. Don't forget, a virus can infect millions and millions of cells in a complex organism, so from a certain perspective they can become even more complex then many plants.


Don't forget, it is widely believed that a virus is the whole reason humanity is able to exist. Without it our cells would not be able to generate the energy they need to perform their functions.

So you have a virus that has a symbiotic relationship with billions (trillions?) of creatures across the planet, and is the key reason all those creatures are capable of existing. So are plants more complex then that virus?

It could be argued either way. On one hand those pieces of virus are pretty independent of each other, they only need the cell they are a part of. However, they are in every living cell of every mammal, every insect, every plant, pretty much every living organism on the planet that is multi-cellular, and even many single cell organisms.

So virus' are pretty darn impressive, in there own rather unique way.

I think as GM you are perfectly free to declare your zombies dead or alive. IMO the zombies animated by the T-Virus in resident evil are probably not 'alive' and thus not affected by mana-bolt and the like. OTOH most of the zombies/ghouls in Shadowrun are alive (or inhabited by spirits) and so are fair game for manabolt.

Another evil option SR opens up to you is the techno-zombie. A living person could get some sort of implant overiding his motor control and putting him under the control of another person/program. If you were really evil you could even imagine it as a computer virus that could infect and take over anyone with skill wires or maybe wired reflexes. Going a little outside of Shadowrun cannon you could even state that a new computer virus (possibly with resonance related attributes) could take-over anyone with a DNI/Datajack. Of course all such targets would be living and fair game for mana-bolt. But making transmision be by electronic medium would be an interesting twist I think.

Yet another option would be to go with a 'nano-virus' of some sort. SR4 nano-technology has advanced to the point where a SOTA nanite could concievably take over a hosts body and his motor functions. Possibly killing the host in the process and animating his corpse. Wouldn't that be fun!

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But really, as GM you are pretty free to declare that your zombies work in which every way you want.

Virii don't have cells though. Even a single cell (like most bacteria) is to a bustling metropolis as a virus is to a single person.



If I have a million identical rocks, no individual one of those rocks is any more or less complex than another. Just because a virus happens to infect more cells and make more copies of iteslf doesn't make it any more complex.



There are over 6 billion people on the planet right now who need iron in their blood to survive, but that doesn't mean the iron itself is anything but inert metal.



Yes, they are, but that doesn't make them anything more than an interesting collection of chemicals that happen to re-program cells they infect. The lack of moving parts, and the fact that they're nothing more than a component in a cell, which in turn is a component in a living organism, makes them simply an assortment of matter, rather than a 'living' creature.

To nip this discussion in the bud: Mana in the form of Health spells are used to cure/destroy/prevent viral infections.

True, but a viral infection is something marring the health of a living organism. Health spells are also used to cure poisoning, but arsenic itself couldn't be manabolted.

True, but in addition to pushing suspension of disbelief a bit, what's the harm in making them vulnerable to mana spells? They can blow up just as good. Besides which, they still can be hurt by direct spells, such as powerbolt.

But if I remember my bug stomping games, the whole point of a ghoul/zombie/bug hunt is the visceral reaction you get as their heads explode. Mana spells can do that just as easily as anything else, just have their heads explode from the inside out, a la Fist of the North Star. That should get the desired reaction.

I guess it would depend upon the kind of game you were going for. To me zombies have always been about horror. The horror of a unstoppable horde who shrug lots of effects. In this case having zombies that are immune to mana spells can add to this effect, making the mage rely upon more draining physical spells.

Like I said, its a matter of perspective. People who are dying, or have lost loved ones, to virus' would likely have a very different opinion about them than being "simply an assortment of matter", I think it is very clear to these people that a virus can have tremendous effects.

As for my game, I have decided to allow them to be effected by Mana. To some degree, the virus and the cells they infect have to be alive. Since the virus appears to be extremely widespread in the RE zombies I feel I have to give the benefit of the doubt and allow MAna to work.

Besides, this is a beginning Combat Mage. Its hard for him to avoid drain right now.

And people who've lost loved ones to gunfire probably have a different opinion of guns than people who havent, but a gun is still just metal and plastic. Just because people attach a sentimental symbolism to things doesn't change what they are.



Go nuts! It's your game, so feel free to rule however you like, for whatever reason you like, so long as the players are happy. I will still, however, dispute you claim that a virus can be manabolted from an objective standpoint, while we're here on DS. =)

it's not a question of whether you can manabolt a virus or not, it's a question of whether or not a normal virus can animate someone who is completely dead and make use of their senses, their muscles, and their brain/CNS, among other things, and i have a really hard time believing that's within the ability of a virus. take over and modify the host's cells, maybe. control the host as if it was a giant fighting seizure robot? well, any virus that can do that is going to have to qualify as alive in my mind. i'm not convinced you can cram a computer complex enough to infect, mutate, and then control a (meta)human body into a virus's genetic material.

so imo at least, if your zombie are virally infected (meta)humans, then the host of the virus is not dead, they are just altered by the virus in a number of ways, and the host can therefore be mana bolted, and once the host is dead the zombie is, for all intents and purposes, dead. (you could still get infected by whatever means the virus spreads, however, if you rule that the virus cannot be mana bolted for whatever reasons)

One of the reasons that my Zombies "feed" in order to unlock the mana trapped into being's patterns, which of course renders them highly resistant to magical attacks in general. IF my players knows that a direct combat spell has little chance of working anyways they are going to load up the flamethrower with a flamedart spell as backup...

While I do not believe that viruses can be manabolted (although bacteria can), I think the Sterilize spell works on both.

Spoilers for Resident Evil 5:

Maybe for example like "your local bunraku parlor, where 'meat puppets' are surgically altered and equipped with personafix chips until they’re better than real"

Just plug in a Personafix chip to a chipped individual and you have your armie of living zombies who believe they want to act in the way you instruct them to do so.

Would it be possible for a hacker to hack into a persons comlink and then install this on a person? That would be a nasty combat action, hack and reprogram the enemy!




Max.
Dunedin, NZ

I'm fine with Mana spells working on both, but you can't use a Manabolt on either for one very, very simple reason: LOS. My definition of "is it a viable target for a mana spell" comes down to "is it clearly not alive? if there's even a question, manabolt the hell out of it."

You do, albeit indirectly, bring up a point though. It seems the game -- via Sterilize -- doesn't think biological material that's not in contact with a "living being" counts as living itself. So that covers blood, hair, skin, microorganisms, etc.

Bunraku parlors are a great example, I hadn't thought of them. Though apparently at least some degree of cyberwere and/or willingness (or at least apathy) is involved.



It's not exactly clear to me what exactly is necessary to hijack a persons brain against there will. A persona fix chip may be enough only if the person using it isn't actively fighting against the overlayed personality. Bunraku parlor girls may accept the chips as the alternatives are savage beatings and the chips at least let them partialy blank out what is going on.

But simply as a GM tool I have no problem with some sort of BBG developing some sort of supper resonance enabled virus that can infect anyone with a direct neural interface.

I still think the concept of zombie dom that is transmitted electronically fascinating. Heh, what an awesome (and appropriate) twist on the typical zombie Apocalypse genre. A zombie virus that infects you via a DNI. If it had a delayed effect, it could potentialy infect a huge portion of the 6th world, as likely most everyone uses a DNI (even if its just trodes) at some point. Only those who are 'matrix virgins' as it were would remain un-infected.

Hah. I love it...

of DOOM!

Well, FAB is a different story, since you can see it astrally, and physically when it glows. And an optical microscope would work. Of course, manabolt is single-target, and there's probably thousands of bacteria floating there... so, yeah, I'd allow it. It wouldn't do much good, but it might be entertaining.

With a drain code identical to manaball, Sterilize could be a useful replacement if you know you'll be facing FAB anytime soon.

Just cause it seems like you didn't check, SM, 127, "FAB III can be killed according to the standard rules in astral combat as well as by the Sterilize spell. The Cure Disease spell can also destroy it; treat FAB III as a disease with Power equal to its Force. If it is reduced to 0, the cloud is destroyed."

FAB 1 can be seen physically when it glows after dieing from contacting an astral form.

FAB 2 lives in a nutrient solution like a fancy wall. So no glowing there (but you might recognize the type of wall.

FAB 3 Does not glow, but does attach to awakened characters and feed on them when they're astrally active.

That's only FAB III, though. Sterilize should get all versions of them, but AFAIK FAB III is the only one that can be manabolted as a colony.

To get even more bizarrely technical, Sterilize is a physical spell seeming to indicate that microorganisms cannot be targeted with mana spells. Though I suppose it could be that only viruses are immune, and the spell is physical to handle both. Though admittedly the sterilize spell does more then just kill microorganisms, so its physical nature may account for that.

OTOH it may be that microorganisms are just plain immune in most situations, as the mage does not have LOS to them (in most cases). Indeed if this were not the case, the 'sterilize' spell would not be as necessary as a simple mana-ball would sterilize a large area by default (though sterilize does have other utility). I suppose you could target something if looking at it through an optical microscope, but umm... overkill much? (I mana-bolt the paramecium!)

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In any case I would deny the use of Sterilize against undead viraly animated zombies anyways. I could justify it by saying that the material is tied up with other organic material making it impossible. Or by saying that the sum of an infected zombie is greater then its component parts, changing the exact nature of the collective micro-organisim group into something that can't be targeted by it (while yes, still retaining its dead and thus mana-immune nature).

But mainly it would be just be GM fiat

As a general rule, if you can't see it you can't target it. Sterilize doesn't work by targeting microorganisms but rather by creating an environment that they cannot survive in.