Hence the reason I asked if any of them are worth it other than Dampening. You can't get dampening any other way (except the adept power).



When I make a sammy, I get the Essence down to .01 if I can. Hell when I make a Hacker I get HIS Essence down to near zero if I can. I do apologize for not stating it in my OP is that I was thinking about Mages &/or Essence conscious characters (Adepts, Technomancers, Faces that need that "humanity" to do their job, etc)

Faces don't need humanity for their job anymore. It overrated, anyway:

If you are going to talk people into heading straight for their certain doom, do it with a smile.

I tend to think however that unless you deal with techie characters, a more 'humane' face is a better bet. Make you listen more at least.

We are social animals...

There's no real way to tell someone is augmented in casual conversation unless they have lots of obvious implants. And even then, unless they're "freaky" implants, most people don't even care; there's not even a modifier for it on the Social Modifers Table. Acting more machine than man is a relic of older editions, as it should be. Never liked it then, wouldn't like it now.

I just put that in because some people play with the "Lower the Essence, the lower the player's 'Humanity'" rule.

The fluff seems to say however still that obvious and heavy 'enhancements" (and not necessarly directly obvious, but also telltale subtile signs) and their users tend to be seen as 'freaky' by the common Joe Wageslave. A datajack or vampire fangs, fine... But more is not kosher.

Depend on the place, society, culture and also trends/mods... More accepted by the new decade, but...Don't hope getting a warm welcome from granny/oba-san(?), sammy chummer.

Roleplaying is not only stats, its also fluff and made up stuff.


And also... realisticaly, do you expect *no* psychological potential problems from such body changes? It's alien, it's rarely your flesh... The (meta)human mind is a complex and not too rational thing.

No, I fully expect that if I get my arm lopped off and have it replaced with a completely functional replacement (as opposed to today where you're lucky to get a hand that opens and closes with concentration), I'll begin talking like a robot, become convinced that I'm disassociated from humanity, and begin hunting old people for their medicine to use as fuel for my robot parts.

Really. I truly believe that's what would happen to me if I had cyberware installed.

And don't get me started on those God damn FREAKS today with pacemakers or artificial hearts. Monsters, every last one of them! Rabble rabble rabble! <pitchfork>

I dunno, but think of getting your arms chopped and replaced by the flesh of someone else - or something that was no one. Or an obvious artificial one... after another limb, after another organ.. after.. after...

Would you be perfectly fine, really? The body is you, it's the most intimate of things. Something in your mind may not go well. Not to this ridiculousness, but a a form of psychosis or 'body horror' mental illness, why not?

It may work well, but it's clearly *not* you. It's alien. And we don't speak like implants - note also that in real life, there is oppositions to some such surgeries, present or soon to come.

And so, it reflect surely in the eyes of others - a malaise, a disgust, a fear growing with the degree of obvious 'changes', the less 'normal' you look. Would *you* be well around a body mod guy or an obvious street samurai? Even used to the techs, not sure.

Humans don't change so easily. Even in 2070. humans fear the Others. They fear becoming Others.



Also, you forget the reality of magic, life force, 'soul' and so on; for me, the Essence part have a logic. You are not 'pure' anymore, you 'desecrated the body'. Look at a few believes like Shinto or Book Religions for that subject...

Beep boop bop, discussion not understood. I am too far disassociated from humanity to understand this talk of psychology and mental illness. My vast robot brain (apparently located in my arm) cannot process such information. Overload! Overlord! Ove.... bwereeeerrrppp. CRUSH, KILL, DESTROY! RAWR!

Seriously. No, I don't buy that at all. There might be some depression involved for a while -- maybe the occasional tendency for slight meglomania -- until you adjust, but that would be about it. Especially since the artifical limbs and organs work just as good if not better than the original. I'm especially against the silliness of this take on things because it has no effect on just having your body lopped off. You can have your organs removed, limbs torn asunder, and still be Essence 6 and totally okay, and everyone would like you. But to hell with you if you get one of Genetique's B.O.B. NuHearts (Synthacardium) or a SpinRad Industries Adonis Wonderflex (Cyberarm) to repair or replace them. Now you're a horrible monster that everyone fears and despises.

There's qualities in the game to handle the psychological impact, and the resulting social impact of those mental illnesses. I'm fine with that; there'll always be outliers. But expecting everyone who gets augmented to become little more than a machine with flesh attached is goofy and part of the 80's cyberpunk paranoia that I really, really hate.

What about the people that don't get a choice in the matter?

Limbs removed and no cloned replacements available?

Or, perhaps, the only way to rebuild someone's skeleton is to lace it (Plastic/Ceramic/Aluminum/Kevlar/Titanium Bone Lacing.).

Loss of hearing, destruction of the eyeballs in such a way that the nerve endings cannot be naturally connected again?

Are they any less "Pure" from having survived?

I ask, because aside from a Datajack and a Built-In CommLink, my "Mr. Johnson" had to have all his cybernetics installed after an... "Accident", shall we say. The type created by Dynamite and old buildings.

Not everyone - there may be factors accounting in as in any other mental illnessess issues, but it's a risk; and the human mind again is not a rational thing. It can errs more eerily than you think. It's also a primordial side of you there that we speak off...

You miss that it's not you. Not you. NOT YOU. (Not shoutting at you there, just kinda showing how it would run.) And the mana scream that too... Something is off, not well. Dissociated limbs/phantom limbs grade. Paranoia, deperession, psychosis, etc...

The details, I can agree it may wonky; but the principles are sound. Not everyone would face that, but it's a potential BIG problems socialy. And I don't see peoples so easily coming unscathed, fine from drastic, non-directly medical changes especialy...


More peoples are at risk or directly mentaly ill than you may think; I can vouch there...



This is the Shadowrun, unfair world... I'm pretty sure on the social and religious/spiritual side, you are 'tainted' for some traditions - shamanism worldwide and shinto (BIG on purity of body and mind) by example... And I bet there is fatwas against that...

And on the magical side of it. as shown by the Essence thing, well... you are not weell, not complete, not pure anymore...

Answer me this, then.

Why aren't Drone Riggers the worst offenders of the bunch? They actually put the entirity of their consciousness into machines, effectively becoming nothing but a sentient robot. So why aren't they psychologically affected and treated as monsters as a result? There's nothing human about them while they're rigging as such. But, suddenly, if you physically put their brain into a drone (costing 5.9 Essence or so), they're supposed to spontaneously become just barely recognizable as human?

Same thing for anyone using AR. It's okay to have data overwhelming constantly 24/7, but the moment you get an image link installed so you can watch the trid wherever you are (as opposed to a pair of glasses with an image link installed), you've already begun your fall to monsterdom?

I have read a bit about the brains-in-jar SOTA cyborgs... Aren't they actualy open to often quitserious mental health problems? Even the cloned ones, who never 'lived' really as men?e It seems to go my way; it's not good for the psyche.

It's not good for mental health indeed, no? Worse because the influx of infos is deeper in you, like a tap opened more and who was moved closer?

You put words in my mouth a bit; psycho killing freaks, except for extreme cases, not. I was speaking of serious mental health issues, syndromas, etc... Who may not go the cliché way.

*I* am a sufferer - I can tell you that more minor problems can screw your life (or sinply make it suck) as well, buddy. You don't need to go monster way. And it's even worse if you have a job, a lifestyle that demands control and cool head.

Guess because you aren't inside the drone all the time... even though you might be so... no wait, yep, it makes no sense to have such differences. Essence isn't your mental health meter, but just to indicate how much flesh you got left or something like that. In good ol' CP2020 you had to roll how much of your humanity you did lose per cyberware so in comparison to the set number, it does indicate it's not quite the same thing as humanity. Some people might handle well the alterations to body and yes, some become those cyberpsychos

this discussion reminds me of Buster Bluth, from Arrested Developement

Hehe, he was one of the characters I was thinking about with my monster robot comments. Fry from Futurama was also involved in that thought process (namely the episode where he goes to the robot insane asylum).

KCKitsune actually given the pure goodness and ease that implants repersent even the Awakened and Technos should give up at least 1-2 points of their Magic/Resonance, I have never been a big fan of "purity" in a Cyberpunk world, there is just too much that implants can do to make daily life easier as well as augument a Mage's own abilities not to give up a portion of their "humanity".

Yup, I know. I guess I'm too much of a munchkin not to work out EXACTLY how to get the most bang for the least amount of Essence.

Metagaming is always going to be a problem in RPGs.

Is it really metagaming when in the fluff it is stated that they can "track" the amount of Essence loss due to a piece of 'Ware?

I think so when your stated goal is to figure out "EXACTLY how to get the most bang for the least amount of Essence" without considering ease of use in daily life. Even Mages lose their fragging remotes at times.

Considering that my mage has a cyberhand with a 5/5 Commlink built in... I don't think I have to worry about losing my remote anytime soon

Also since my cyberhand has a Sim Module... I may have to worry about him downloading sim porn and well...

-------------------------------------------------------

Back OT: If a character has a sim module, does he need a displaylink &/or Soundlink? Can the information that was to be presented by either of those be piped in by simsense?

Sounds like a good combo to me.


As for using simsense instead of vision/sound links I don't see any reason why it couldn't work.

A cyberhand is, IMO, THE greatest piece of gear for a mage! You can put in ALL sorts of really neat things in one. Commlink, Nano-hive, Auto-injector, biomonitor, datajack... Yeah, you only have a 4 capacity, but buy Bulk Mod 1 and you can still have a hand that's "mostly normal sized". All of this for only .25 Essence. If you have to be "discreet" then put on black leather gloves a la Luke Skywalker or Bester.

And if you only have 1 cyberhand, you need only wear 1 white glove and people might think you are just a Jackson fan.

Who would want to be a Jackson fan? That's almost like holding up a sign saying: "Please Kill Me! I Really deserve to die, but I'm too much of a chickenshit to do it myself!"

No, if you're going to wear a glove to cover a cyberhand, then wear both gloves! No Jackson fans here please!