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Cain
QUOTE
I noticed in your review that you and I pointed out many of the same things, but you chose to do it with a much more aggressive, negative tone. Now, if you are posting a review simply to have the opportunity to blast away, and have a platform for you opinions, fine. However, if you are really wanted to attempt to affect change in the way the Shadowrun products are done, this might be better achieved by using a more "constructive" tone.

"Constructive" criticism on a purchased product is a laughable concept. As a consumer, I should not be expected to solve the company's problems for them. It's up to me to say what I liked and didn't like; it's up to them to translate that into usable information. Customer feedback is a valuable commodity, and usually the level of detail we put into our reviews costs money. In short, I am not paid to tell them what to do; they are paid to take our feedback and do it right.

That being said, you'll note that the overall rating was a 4/2, and not a 1/1. I actually had quite a few positive things to say about Ghost Cartels, I just didn't think there was enough of it. As far as being "aggressive" goes, I do have a different style than you do. That's perfectly all right, people should sound different. Also, Synner has made it abundantly clear that he'd rather jump naked on a huge pile of thumbtacks ( rotfl.gif ) than accept anything I've had a part in, so there's no reason for me to take a "diplomatic" tone.
The Jake
QUOTE (Cain @ Jan 7 2009, 01:33 AM) *
"Constructive" criticism on a purchased product is a laughable concept. As a consumer, I should not be expected to solve the company's problems for them. It's up to me to say what I liked and didn't like; it's up to them to translate that into usable information. Customer feedback is a valuable commodity, and usually the level of detail we put into our reviews costs money. In short, I am not paid to tell them what to do; they are paid to take our feedback and do it right.


No offense mate but I think you and I have very different perspectives on what a review really means.

I have to agree with Malachi. If you are giving a review, the post should clearly articulate what is done right, what is done wrong and provide opinions on what could have been done to improve the product. That way if the review is read (and taken seriously) the authors can take those criticisms on board and apply your suggestions to enhance their product and get a better result next time.

If you didn't like it, fair enough. But spare the melodrama in the review.

- J.
Cain
QUOTE
I have to agree with Malachi. If you are giving a review, the post should clearly articulate what is done right, what is done wrong and provide opinions on what could have been done to improve the product. That way if the review is read (and taken seriously) the authors can take those criticisms on board and apply your suggestions to enhance their product and get a better result next time.
My question to you is, why should I be expected to provide opinions on how to improve their product? If you bought a bag of chips, and didn't like them, should you be required to write a four-page review to be taken seriously? With other products, you don't have to give detailed feedback; games should be no different. You just need to say: "These chips taste bad", and let the company figure it out.
The Jake
QUOTE (Cain @ Jan 7 2009, 02:09 AM) *
My question to you is, why should I be expected to provide opinions on how to improve their product? If you bought a bag of chips, and didn't like them, should you be required to write a four-page review to be taken seriously? With other products, you don't have to give detailed feedback; games should be no different. You just need to say: "These chips taste bad", and let the company figure it out.


I would counter with "what is the purpose of your review then"?

If its wholly and solely to say that "your product is crap" then it is a rather useless review.

Granted reviews are always subjective but if you're not even providing constructive criticism then it is clearly not even worth reading.

- J.
Malachi
QUOTE (Cain @ Jan 6 2009, 08:33 PM) *
Also, Synner has made it abundantly clear that he'd rather jump naked on a huge pile of thumbtacks ( rotfl.gif ) than accept anything I've had a part in, so there's no reason for me to take a "diplomatic" tone.

Perhaps if your tone was less antagonistic your reviews/suggestions/opinions would be taken with more merit.
Cain
QUOTE (The Jake @ Jan 6 2009, 05:19 PM) *
I would counter with "what is the purpose of your review then"?

To post my opinions. My opinions aren't required to be constructive, just justifiable.

QUOTE
If its wholly and solely to say that "your product is crap" then it is a rather useless review.

I'll sidestep just a bit here and say there's a difference between what I wrote and "Destructive criticism", which is what you're referring to here. There is a middle ground between all flames and all ass-kissing.

QUOTE
Granted reviews are always subjective but if you're not even providing constructive criticism then it is clearly not even worth reading.

Ebert and Roeper don't provide constructive criticism for filmmakers, yet their reviews are well worth reading. My target audience isn't the good folks at Catalyst, it's the gamer trying to decide what to buy.

QUOTE
Perhaps if your tone was less antagonistic your reviews/suggestions/opinions would be taken with more merit.

If a suggestion has merit, then it should be examined, antagonism or no antagonism. That little conflict is based on history, not tone.
BlueMax
QUOTE (Malachi @ Jan 6 2009, 05:31 PM) *
Perhaps if your tone was less antagonistic your reviews/suggestions/opinions would be taken with more merit.


Less antagonistic? or less honest? The review should be exactly how the reviewer feels about the product. Nothing more, nothing less. And I thought it suggested improvements but I could have been reading things into the review that weren't there.

What I have seen on this board is when a negative review is given, there is a response of "Plenty of people liked XXX and they bought XXX." Which seems to be antagonistic to anyone who doesn't tow the line.

The merit should be based on the accuracy of the review. Are there errors or gross exaggerations in the review?

The Jake
QUOTE (Cain @ Jan 7 2009, 02:52 AM) *
To post my opinions. My opinions aren't required to be constructive, just justifiable.

<snip>

If a suggestion has merit, then it should be examined, antagonism or no antagonism. That little conflict is based on history, not tone.


More specifically, it should be based on substance. In other words, your arguments should be substantiated or otherwise qualified. Providing constructive criticism serves that purpose by providing a benchmark for comparison. Or at the very least, how you measure "good" vs "crap".

So, to reiterate my last post - without substance, your reviews are pointless.

Your argument effectively amounts to you have a right to say a product is crap without any substantiation. I'll defend your right to say what you will, but I'll then counter with your reviews are crap. rotate.gif

QUOTE (BlueMax @ Jan 7 2009, 02:59 AM) *
Less antagonistic? or less honest? The review should be exactly how the reviewer feels about the product. Nothing more, nothing less. And I thought it suggested improvements but I could have been reading things into the review that weren't there.

What I have seen on this board is when a negative review is given, there is a response of "Plenty of people liked XXX and they bought XXX." Which seems to be antagonistic to anyone who doesn't tow the line.

The merit should be based on the accuracy of the review. Are there errors or gross exaggerations in the review?


I'm all in favor of a negative review if deserved.

On a side note, I agreed with a lot of the negative points that Cain made, I just wish the melodrama and hyperbole were toned down. I also felt it was harsh because even though I saw many of the same faults, I didn't feel it shamed the product to the same degree that he did. But to each his own I guess. *shrug*

Anyway, I think I've said all I want to say on this subject. I'm just interested in reading the blow-by-blow accounts from Fuchs and Prime Runner. I'll start contributing when I get my team onto GC.

- J.
Cain
QUOTE
More specifically, it should be based on substance. In other words, your arguments should be substantiated or otherwise qualified. Providing constructive criticism serves that purpose by providing a benchmark for comparison. Or at the very least, how you measure "good" vs "crap".

So, to reiterate my last post - without substance, your reviews are pointless.

While I agree that a good review needs to be justifiable, it does not and should not be "constructive". Again, Ebert does a lot of film criticism that doesn't hand-hold the filmmakers and politely tell them how to make everything better. I think when you say "substance", you mean "justifiable"-- and there's no argument that all my reviews have clear reasons for the opinions.
Malachi
QUOTE (The Jake @ Jan 6 2009, 11:20 PM) *
On a side note, I agreed with a lot of the negative points that Cain made, I just wish the melodrama and hyperbole were toned down. I also felt it was harsh because even though I saw many of the same faults, I didn't feel it shamed the product to the same degree that he did.

I completely agree with this assessment. Where I pointed out something to say, "This was a little confusing," Cain called it "a useless mess."

So, read the review, take 2 grains of salt, and call me in the morning.
Cain
QUOTE (Malachi @ Jan 6 2009, 08:02 PM) *
So, read the review, take 2 grains of salt, and call me in the morning.

That could be said of any review you come across, not just mine.
Wesley Street
Cain's right, a reviewer is under no obligation to insert praise of a work in his critique if he feels it doesn't warrant it.

However, a critic is expected to be objective. Starting a review with the sentence Recently, the developers of Shadowrun have been trying new and exciting things with the line. I guess “Missing the point� could sum it up: They delivered an excellent GM aid masquerading as a mediocre module in On The Run; and in a book for detailed settings, they gave us instead a bunch of bland settings (admittedly, with one exciting one) in Runner Havens smacks of bias and sour grapes. A proper review of Ghost Cartels examines the module itself. And, yes, a reviewer can say that it stank to high heaven and leave it at that with no examination of the good or offer advice on what to change. It's the developer's job to figure out what to change. What a review doesn't provide is a forum to criticize other products unless the review itself is about the direction of Shadowrun as a whole. And unless I'm mistaken this was supposed to be a review of Ghost Cartels.

If I read an album review in Rolling Stone that starts something like, "Well, the first two Wu-Tang albums sucked and this one is no different..." I'm immediately going to stop reading as it's pretty obvious the reviewer has an axe to grind with the Clan.

Word.
Demonseed Elite
You know, you guys are reviewing a review. nyahnyah.gif

Whatever you think of Cain's review or Ghost Cartels, I think the best bet is to post your own review up next to his.
Malachi
Mine was there first. nyahnyah.gif
Wesley Street
Eh, I already gave my thoughts on the module up-thread. Maybe I'll consider joining RPG.net... Maybe... nyahnyah.gif
Cain
QUOTE
However, a critic is expected to be objective.

How is that possible, with such subjective matter being discussed?

QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Jan 7 2009, 08:02 AM) *
You know, you guys are reviewing a review. nyahnyah.gif

Whatever you think of Cain's review or Ghost Cartels, I think the best bet is to post your own review up next to his.


I agree with you. If they don't like my review, they can post their own. As for reviewing the review, I actually don't mind it: I welcome the opportunity to improve my writing skills.

QUOTE (Malachi @ Jan 7 2009, 08:28 AM) *
Mine was there first. nyahnyah.gif

The meta-review process isn't about who was first, it's about personality. Right or wrong, my personality is more controversial, and so it gets more notice. And I do tend to take more controversial stances on things. My review of Faery's Tale didn't spark a 10+ page thread, because it was less controversial.
BlueMax
QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Jan 7 2009, 07:57 AM) *
What a review doesn't provide is a forum to criticize other products unless the review itself is about the direction of Shadowrun as a whole. And unless I'm mistaken this was supposed to be a review of Ghost Cartels.


I am not certain the two entities, "direction of Shadowrun" and Ghost Cartels, are as different as implied. Certainly, Ghost Cartels is the direction that the developers have presented as where they would like to take campaign books for Shadowrun. Though, this may not apply at all to the meta review issue at hand.

And it would be silly for me to call Ghost Cartels a module. Even beyond a campaign, its more of a smuggling genre novelette with suggestions on how the party can be brought close enough to see the action.



Malachi
QUOTE (Cain @ Jan 7 2009, 02:24 PM) *
The meta-review process isn't about who was first, it's about personality. Right or wrong, my personality is more controversial, and so it gets more notice. And I do tend to take more controversial stances on things. My review of Faery's Tale didn't spark a 10+ page thread, because it was less controversial.

My post there was merely in response to Demonseed's comment about "posting your own review."
Chrysalis
I actually did write a review and can be found in the thread.
Wesley Street
QUOTE (Cain @ Jan 7 2009, 01:24 PM) *
How is that possible, with such subjective matter being discussed?

There's a difference between subjectivity and coming off sounding like one has a monster chip on one's shoulder.
Cain
QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Jan 7 2009, 12:38 PM) *
There's a difference between subjectivity and coming off sounding like one has a monster chip on one's shoulder.

And where would you have drawn that line?
Wesley Street
By cutting the first two sentences.
Cain
I'll keep that in mind for the next review. Thank you, no sarcasm intended.
Fuchs
We continued the campaign last saturday with the second part of "The trouble with Tempo"
[ Spoiler ]
Fuchs
Last Saturday we did the sequel of "The trouble with tempo", followed by "Flipside"

[ Spoiler ]
The Jake
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Jan 21 2009, 12:38 AM) *
Last Saturday we did the sequel of "The trouble with tempo", followed by "Flipside"

[ Spoiler ]


That's hillarious. Your PCs sound like a riot. smile.gif

I have to say after my reading of 'Flipside' that there is a lot that can go wrong. Most PCs I know would have that lab blow up in seconds.

- J.
kanislatrans
QUOTE (The Jake @ Jan 20 2009, 07:00 PM) *
I have to say after my reading of 'Flipside' that there is a lot that can go wrong. Most PCs I know would have that lab blow up in seconds.

- J.


pretty much esplains what happened with us. It seems the more we try not to blow things up the bigger the tick-tick bang when it finally does go boom. grinbig.gif grinbig.gif
Prime Mover
As Kanis said in his post above Flipside was a big BOOM. Drone and adapt made it into lobby, drone and astral mage got a look at what was going on in apartment. Vilamoura had enough time to reach his drug lab and even though the Yak soldiers held back after experiencing his new strength he reached a burner and set off the explosion.

After that we moved onto the Trouble with Tempo. This went alittle strange at first. The team attempted to lure Caine out. (For only the second time since we started GC our uber hacker has been tracked. Both times by Caines comm which by no means should have been able too. Just some amazing rolls by both parties. A group of ragers mounted up on bikes and headed to the comm they were tracking. This allowed Caine to barricade himself in and prep his escape. The team encounters the bikes halfway to Caines den and a "nazi war door" and a napalm spell later and there back on the road. Team arrives blast there way in after clearing the druged out hookers from the street. (a spat of compassion?) Hacker takes all nodes in building, adapt busts in and the rigger starts pouring suppressive fire into the upper floor windows. A quick sweep of the building and finish off whats left of Caines men the adept pursues Caine to his hidden bike, stick and shocks him down and gets a new BIKE.

At this point the team insists on keeping tabs on there meal ticket...err employer. Astral and drone overwatch escort Kaz to his meeting with Greywolf and see first hand what happens. Kaz is convinced the drug has made him invincible and the teams mage is still at a loss. Although he has taken a sample of tempo back to his lodge so they can study it closer. I've also added some magical support to Inoues team a misguided shaman who Chikao has manipulated into helping "fight" this tempo craziness.

For the climax once the team learns were the yaks are staying faster then expected they begin monitoring there comm traffic. Due to there expedience I allowed them to find out the cars were in route. They intercepted them and picked up Inoues team there selves. A fake edited comm call later and they were taking Chikao and his men to an empty warehouse the team has recently come into possession of to "meet the Oyabun". We stopped as the cars rolled into the darkened warehouse and Chikao began to get suspicious.
Fuchs
No new run directly from GC, just an intermezzo this week.

[ Spoiler ]


Next week we should continue with the regular GC events.
pbangarth
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Jan 26 2009, 03:45 AM) *
No new run directly from GC, just an intermezzo this week.

[ Spoiler ]


Next week we should continue with the regular GC events.


Why? Where you are sounds like way more fun!
The Jake
My campaign is shaping up beautifully.

One of my PCs has purchased the black market pipeline + day job qualities and now turning it (with the help of the PCs) into a fully fledged arms dealing business (with occasional drug shipment).

They've got a factory located in Everett right by the docks and they have managed to build a rather large underground area underneath the building. They're essentially got a nice little supply of cash coming in monthly. I'm balancing that against the number of expenses and efforts they have to go to in order to maintain it (and their desire to keep it at its current size and fly below the radar).

At the moment, the funds just cover the costs of running the business and after the bribes, expenses, kickbacks, etc, just enough to contribute a decent pool of funds to the monthly cash pool.

The Vory represents one supply channel. They've now also got channels with Lone Star (a couple of corrupt cops colluding to occasionally fence contents from the evidence locker marked for destruction), an mysterious buyer who is exceptionally well dressed, drives a BMW and doesn't ask questions (my PCs don't read here!)
[ Spoiler ]
, a Metroplex Guardsmen fencing ammo off a gunnery range (supposedly used/spent munitions), they're also dealing with a crooked accountant with a BAD habit who is helping them get a few shipments a year through Ares Arms (they're planning a big hack against Ares now to hack their accounting software which they've caught wind of is in the middle of an upgrade).

They realised however the need to increase their security. Because they're based in Everett, they've hired the First Nations (they picked them out because they were local).

With a few drug using contacts, contacts in the First Nations and their arms/drug dealing business, they're perfectly primed to start the campaign... mwuahahah....

- J.


Fuchs
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jan 27 2009, 01:03 AM) *
Why? Where you are sounds like way more fun!


That kind of stuff still going on as well, of course. But after taking part in a simsense production, and a two-week trip to Paris with a billionaire (who had his own agenda), some underworld business looks very appealing nyahnyah.gif

(The mage is "very used" to having trouble with juggling identities - the aforementioned vory officer actually warned one of his identities to stay the heck away from the mage's girlfriend, and that if anything happend to her boyfriend (which was his other identity), he'd be blamed quite painfully.)

So yes, it's a very whacky campaign. Not quite P2.0 levels, but not your usual "trenchcoat style".
Fuchs
After two sessions of introducing a new character we did the finale of the first arc - Tokyo Fireworks:

[ Spoiler ]
Prime Mover
Last two sessions.....got alittle busy last week and didn't get to post.

[ Spoiler ]
The Jake
Ran the first adventure of 'First Taste' this evening - A Stranger In Our House. Didn't quite finish it but here's how it went so far-
[ Spoiler ]


More to come...

- J.
AJCarrington
Thanks for the AAR - looking forward to hearing how things turn out / progress.

AJC
The Jake
Ok, finished 'Stranger In The House' tonight. More spoilers ahead....

[ Spoiler ]


- J.
pbangarth
It's amazing what different tacks two separate teams can take in the same scenario.

My group is now working on the raid on the DocWagon facility to get the body. The team (in character to a large degree) has not been long on planning, and their dice rolling is abysmal, but they have survived the Stranger in the House section intact. They are regrouping after a painful reminder of the kind of defenses a wealthy, determined corp like DocWagon can put in play. They are getting good at thinking themselves out of the holes they put themselves into.

However, their inital research and legwork during the surveillance jobs gave them a clue about the underlying threat involved with Tempo, and they have followed up on that clue to be way ahead of the game in their understanding of what is going on. One of the two PC mages has a contact who is addicted to Tempo, and crying for help from her magic friend. The mage has discovered the astral links of the Spirit Pact on her friend, and is considering following the threads to see what they lead to. The whole campaign could take a left turn really quickly.

I look forward to the next session.
SincereAgape
Reading threads like this make me want to overcome GM burnout smile.gif
wylie
as pbangarth, it is amazing what different groups do

the group I am GMing posed as the funeral home, with the hacker hacking in ahead they were to pick up the body
in and out quietly & painlessly

its the subplots thats beating the group down

right now I'm at a crossroads, whether to use flipside or tokyo fireworks, as I want to finish the story arc, but 2 of my players are leaving soon. i have 2 new palyers coming to take their place though.

all I am gonna say about trouble with tempo is; there were lots of bullets on the highway and 5 yakuza bodies (leader taken and the last to fall), and one soldier lived by hiding behind a guardrail after the group blew up the car he was using as cover
ScandRun
Contains the first adventure framework in Hong Kong.

[ Spoiler ]
Muspellsheimr
Try using a
[ Spoiler ]
ScandRun
Yeah figured the hide function would do that, do not know how to make a spoiler really, otherwise one might mark the hidden areas maybe.
pbangarth
Type the word "spoiler", surrounded by square brackets, at the beginning, and the word "/spoiler", surrounded by square brackets, at the end.
Fuchs
After a wide and lengthy and partially meta-questy detour where the team grappled with personal issues and ghosts, and spirits, and magical katanas stolen by mysterious martial artists who get killed in PC's dojos, the infiltration of the Ghost Cartels continues.

[ Spoiler ]
The Jake
I had previously told my players they were going to be undertaking some wetwork for a series of three Vory mob bosses in Vladivostok but this adventure had the potential to absorb significant chunks of my time in its development and take them away from Ghost Cartels - neither of which I have neither the time nor the inclination. So I cheapened the scenario down to a handful of random dice rolls to determine the level of success and level of injury and mishaps, winding up in the PCs being chased down a Vladivostok freeway by five bikers armed with AK-97 carbines while they're in an armored Nightsky.

In short, I wanted it to be dramatic in a scenematic action sense and not get bogged down in rules and alternate subplots. They got away and eventually back to Seattle, allowing me to run 'Body Snatchers'.

[ Spoiler ]


Next session we will wrap up Body Snatchers fully.

- J.
The Jake
I should just start a new thread on my chronicle of the Ghost Cartels campaign.

My PCs were to wrap up 'Body Snatchers' tonight -admittedly I did spoon-feed them a bit but simply because of their tendency to drag their heels at times. But nothing they couldn't resolve themselves - only to speed it along.

[ Spoiler ]


- J.
The Jake
Attack of the Double Post.

- J.
Malachi
QUOTE (The Jake @ Sep 25 2009, 10:45 AM) *
* I tried to get Caine to get away but shy of massive railroading, the PCs had more knowledge than the module called for based on their creativity and it would have been obvious that I was railroading if I had let him getaway. I didn't care if Caine was killed as I figured there is another Rager's member who has knowledge of the tempo and potential sources and would easily replace him. I well realise I am potentially diverging from canon here, but I figure if Caine has a replacement within the Ragers, the plot can proceed as normal with minimal railroading.

Modules are made to be modified. If the PC's do something creative that diverges, go with the PC's actions and then tweak things in the later modules (just like you're doing). You made the right choice.
The Jake
QUOTE (Malachi @ Sep 25 2009, 06:17 PM) *
Modules are made to be modified. If the PC's do something creative that diverges, go with the PC's actions and then tweak things in the later modules (just like you're doing). You made the right choice.


Cheers - thanks. My main goal is to stick to the crux of the story. I don't care if I diverge too much.

Having a third party with access to the tempo, undermining First Nations is what is critical. The particulars are largely incidental.

- J.
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