Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Legwork Discussion
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2, 3
Fortune
Yes, but it is either one skill or the other. Personally, I think Social Engineering is very much a use of the Data Search skill, as opposed to the Hacking skill, in the context of Shadowrun.

But the whole point is that your premise is that everything that is available anywhere, is available to the dedicated Data Search. But in Shadowrun, Data Search alone does not include any Hacking whatsoever. That is a totally separate skill, with specific rules defining it's use.
Cain
QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 4 2008, 03:27 PM) *
Yes, but it is either one skill or the other. Personally, I think Social Engineering is very much a use of the Data Search skill, as opposed to the Hacking skill, in the context of Shadowrun.

But the whole point is that your premise is that everything that is available anywhere, is available to the dedicated Data Search. But in Shadowrun, Data Search alone does not include any Hacking whatsoever. That is a totally separate skill, with specific rules defining it's use.

Not everything; check the "real poll" thread for more on that.

But yes, I assume that Data Search involves some low-end hacking. For example, I assume that you sign up for newsletters and forums using fake email accounts. Technically, that requires spoofing your datatrail, spoofing your access ID, and so on, in order to make sure it can't be traced back to you. It's all handwaved into the Data Search roll. The same applies for busting into hidden databases, with security and threat so low, you could buy the successes you need.

For example, to get into a public library database, you need a library card. Now, to get a library card, you need to prove you live in the area the library covers. That's a simple process if you want to expose a fake SIN, but much harder if you're trying to stay anonymous. For example, when I moved here, I had to present two pieces of ID and a utilities bill to prove I lived where I said I did. This can be spoofed fairly easily, but would also be boring and pointless to do. Rather than break off the Data Search to do some tedious, non-threatening hacking, you simply fold it into the Data Search roll.
Tarantula
Data search makes no mention of it being an untraceable search. No spoofing is done during said search. Data search will NOT get you into a database that is secured. You do not make any hacking during it. It might lead you to "that database has some of the stuff we need" but it doesn't not hack it for you. Then, you would have to hack the system, browse for what you were looking for, edit to copy it (hope it isn't data bombed) then log back out.

No wonder you think data search is quick and easy and convienent. You allow too much to get rolled into data search when really data search at most would tell you what databases to hack. Hacking (even fast) takes a couple of passes, then browsing, and downloading, and so on. If you do handwave it away, you should at least add in 1-10minutes (for fast hacking) or 1-6 hours (for probing) for each database needed to be hit, simply because that isn't instantaneous.
Matsci
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Nov 5 2008, 12:52 AM) *
Data search makes no mention of it being an untraceable search. No spoofing is done during said search. Data search will NOT get you into a database that is secured. You do not make any hacking during it. It might lead you to "that database has some of the stuff we need" but it doesn't not hack it for you. Then, you would have to hack the system, browse for what you were looking for, edit to copy it (hope it isn't data bombed) then log back out.

No wonder you think data search is quick and easy and convienent. You allow too much to get rolled into data search when really data search at most would tell you what databases to hack. Hacking (even fast) takes a couple of passes, then browsing, and downloading, and so on. If you do handwave it away, you should at least add in 1-10minutes (for fast hacking) or 1-6 hours (for probing) for each database needed to be hit, simply because that isn't instantaneous.


Y'know, not everyone likes having the rest of the group go for pizza while the Hacker pulls off some data searches.

If it speeds up the game a bit, I'm willing to let some of the nitty gritty details slide.
Cain
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Nov 4 2008, 03:52 PM) *
No wonder you think data search is quick and easy and convienent. You allow too much to get rolled into data search when really data search at most would tell you what databases to hack. Hacking (even fast) takes a couple of passes, then browsing, and downloading, and so on. If you do handwave it away, you should at least add in 1-10minutes (for fast hacking) or 1-6 hours (for probing) for each database needed to be hit, simply because that isn't instantaneous.

Like Matsci said, if you're turning each question into a mini-run for the decker, your game will bog down significantly. I'm witnessing enough bog-downs as is. We need a way to make the process faster, not slower.
Malachi
I'd don't might a good chunk of "hand waving" for Data Searches to get into fairly mundane databases. What I do to keep things moving is to not making everything available with just Data Searches, but we've been over that.
Fortune
QUOTE (Cain @ Nov 5 2008, 10:43 AM) *
Not everything; check the "real poll" thread for more on that.


That poll does not reflect your original statement, which was that any and all information that is obtainable through Contacts was also available via Data Search.
Cain
QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 4 2008, 06:45 PM) *
That poll does not reflect your original statement, which was that any and all information that is obtainable through Contacts was also available via Data Search.

You know, I don't recall saying that. Could you show me where, in so many words, I said that? I haven't been sleeping properly, so I might have forgotten.
Fortune
I looked for a while, but there are a ton of posts spread over a large number of threads, and I eventually gave up.

So, are you saying that, in your opinion, there is actually information available through contacts that isn't obtainable with a data search of the matrix?
Cain
Of course. The problem is, getting to the specific information requires a generalized search first. That means a Data Search test. Actually, lots of them.

In the other thread, we drew the distinction between "legwork", the mundane information-gathering phase; and "prepwork", the stage where you start implementing your plans. On the legwork aspect, the decker is king. You amass a lot of data, the team sifts through it, and brainstorms up a plan. They then come back with specific questions ("Where's the best place to steal a snowplow?" keeps coming up for some reason nyahnyah.gif) and narrow down the plans further. Once your plan is ready, you then enter the prepwork phase. This is where you unleash your Face to talk to people about snowplows, send your troll samurai to intimidate snowplow operators, call in contacts who might be connected to snowplows, etc., etc. On the prep phase, everyone has a turn. But on the info phase, the decker rules.
Fortune
I draw no such distinction. The PC's Contacts in my games tend to get much more of a workout than the Hacker's Data Search skill.
Wasabi
QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Nov 4 2008, 11:21 AM) *
I agree with this statement in regards to playing a game in a surveillance society. But Data Search as a skill isn't hacking. There's no manipulation of code, be it legal or illegal. It's simply sifting through data and information for an answer to a question.

I go to Google and use various boolean queries, read message boards, listen to podcasts, watch streaming video; that's Data Search. I trick Microsoft's corporate mainframe into thinking I'm a legal user, take advantage of known flaws in Vista programming code, and divert Hotmail data packets to grab a piece of information; that's Hacking.


In my mind most of finding data in SR involves hacking because the data search of a protected system generates a lot more useful info than Google. When analyzing payroll accounts for a corp, criminal histories via NCIC, etc., a private system is being searched and that private system has to be hacked into, infiltrated, searched, and is actively patrolled in most cases. Thats MY take anyway. smile.gif
toturi
QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 5 2008, 10:45 AM) *
That poll does not reflect your original statement, which was that any and all information that is obtainable through Contacts was also available via Data Search.

Actually it was I who said that whatever information that is available to the PCs via Contacts could also be available to the PCs through the Matrix.
Wesley Street
QUOTE (Wasabi @ Nov 5 2008, 06:23 AM) *
In my mind most of finding data in SR involves hacking because the data search of a protected system generates a lot more useful info than Google. When analyzing payroll accounts for a corp, criminal histories via NCIC, etc., a private system is being searched and that private system has to be hacked into, infiltrated, searched, and is actively patrolled in most cases. Thats MY take anyway. smile.gif

I feel that approach makes Data Search over-powered as it isn't a Matrix-limited skill. It also includes the ability to go through hard copy records in an efficient fashion and whatnot. And by saying that Data Search involves Hacking takes away from the Hacking skill which in-turn causes game in-balance. But on the other hand not every hunt for data needs to turn into a mini-adventure. GM fiat and your mileage may vary.

I worked in a library for six years and I learned little tricks for tracking down information that didn't involve committing illegal acts. To me, Data Search is a combination of reference librarian and information hunter. It's like it says in the BBB, Data Search is used to separate the wheat from the chaff in the Matrix.
Wesley Street
QUOTE (Cain @ Nov 4 2008, 05:12 PM) *
I have no useful programming skills, yet I've hacked passwords before. I cracked my Ex's credit card password, to see if she had been drawing money off our joint account after we split up. That's also a form of hacking, called "Social engineering". We're not allowed to discuss real-life hacking techniques here, but you know what I'm referring to.

I'm also capable of hacking wi-fi networks. (Legally, too, I might add.) Do I rewrite code? Hell no, I'm a script-grognard. cyber.gif I have this little program that does it for me. I use it to scan my own home network for weaknesses, which is how it's legal. I don't rewrite a single line.

If it gets me into the computer without permission, it's hacking. Dictionary.com's definition is pretty clear on that point. Wikipedia isn't reliable, but according to it, Kevin Mitnick relied almost exclusively on social engineering. So, by deducing someone's password from talking to them, you are hacking in the same method as Kevin Mitnick.


Guessing a password isn't hacking, it's cracking, sometimes referred to as "password cracking". It's a form of brute force computer attack. Hacking and cracking are two different (though related) concepts which is why Hacking is a part of the Cracking Skill Group in SR4. Social Engineering (aka Social Hacking) isn't hacking. Social Engineering is only referred to as Social Hacking as a comparison to allow geek-speak-savvy laymen to comprehend how it works. If Social Engineering were applied to Shadowrun rules it would be a Charisma skill, probably as a specialization of Con. Signing on to an unsecured wi-fi network is to hacking as to what picking up a dollar bill off the ground is to bank robbery. And scanning your wi-fi for weaknesses isn't hacking just like scanning my computer for malware isn't hacking. The scanning software is a product provided by a company and unless you got into its source code and edited it, there was no hacking on your part.

You're taking a very select reading as to what dictionary.com defines hacking as. In the terms of this conversations the definitions that would apply are:

v. tr.
1. Informal To alter (a computer program): hacked her text editor to read HTML.
2. To gain access to (a computer file or network) illegally or without authorization: hacked the firm's personnel database.
v. intr.
1. Informal To write or refine computer programs skillfully.
2. To use one's skill in computer programming to gain illegal or unauthorized access to a file or network: hacked into the company's intranet.

Three of the four definitions very clearly state that hacking involves code manipulation. And the fourth strongly implies it.

EDIT
Malachi
QUOTE (Cain @ Nov 4 2008, 06:12 PM) *
I have no useful programming skills, yet I've hacked passwords before. I cracked my Ex's credit card password, to see if she had been drawing money off our joint account after we split up. That's also a form of hacking, called "Social engineering". We're not allowed to discuss real-life hacking techniques here, but you know what I'm referring to.

I'm also capable of hacking wi-fi networks. (Legally, too, I might add.) Do I rewrite code? Hell no, I'm a script-grognard. cyber.gif I have this little program that does it for me. I use it to scan my own home network for weaknesses, which is how it's legal. I don't rewrite a single line.

I read in your statement that you believe Hackers must also be programmers. I am a professional software engineer (programmer) by trade, and I can attest that I have no ability to "hack" anything. Although Hacking does involve some measure of understanding how software is written/structured, the skills to construct a software program and subvert one to do your bidding are quite different. Therefore, SR4 designers were quite realistic when separating Software (the ability to create programs from raw code) and Hacking (the ability to subvert programs and other systems to do what you want).
Cain
QUOTE (Malachi @ Nov 5 2008, 08:39 AM) *
I read in your statement that you believe Hackers must also be programmers. I am a professional software engineer (programmer) by trade, and I can attest that I have no ability to "hack" anything. Although Hacking does involve some measure of understanding how software is written/structured, the skills to construct a software program and subvert one to do your bidding are quite different. Therefore, SR4 designers were quite realistic when separating Software (the ability to create programs from raw code) and Hacking (the ability to subvert programs and other systems to do what you want).

No. That would be Wesley Street. I believe that you can hack things without being able/needing to rewrite a single line of code. For example, my ability to hack secured wireless networks involves using a 2008 equivalent of a Exploit program. I have no usable programming skills.

QUOTE
Social Engineering (aka Social Hacking) isn't hacking. Social Engineering is only referred to as Social Hacking as a comparison to allow geek-speak-savvy laymen to comprehend how it works. If Social Engineering were applied to Shadowrun rules it would be a Charisma skill, probably as a specialization of Con.

It was also the preferred tool of Kevin Mitnick, the uber-hacker you referred to earlier. Ever since then, it's been considered a hacking skill.

QUOTE
Signing on to an unsecured wi-fi network is to hacking as to what picking up a dollar bill off the ground is to bank robbery. And scanning your wi-fi for weaknesses isn't hacking just like scanning my computer for malware isn't hacking. The scanning software is a product provided by a company and unless you got into its source code and edited it, there was no hacking on your part.

I'm sorry, did I say 'unsecured network'? I should have specified "secured". I can break network keys without rewriting a single line of code.
QUOTE
Three of the four definitions very clearly state that hacking involves code manipulation. And the fourth strongly implies it.

The fourth doesn't imply it at all. In fact, it perfectly describes what I can do, and I am without any meaningful programming skills. I've logged onto several networks without permission. And that doesn't even get into the "script kiddie" phenomena, where people with skills like mine use high-powered programs to do all kinds of nasty things to computer systems. Script kiddies can't program, yet they can cause all sorts of damage.
Tarantula
Lets put it a different way. You are not hacking. You are utilizing a program that someone wrote to hack for you.
Wesley Street
QUOTE (Cain @ Nov 5 2008, 12:24 PM) *
I believe that you can hack things without being able/needing to rewrite a single line of code. For example, my ability to hack secured wireless networks involves using a 2008 equivalent of a Exploit program. I have no usable programming skills.
That doesn't fly in the rule-set of Shadowrun. You don't work code, you don't hack.

QUOTE (Cain @ Nov 5 2008, 12:24 PM) *
It was also the preferred tool of Kevin Mitnick, the uber-hacker you referred to earlier. Ever since then, it's been considered a hacking skill.
I'm sorry, there's no way you're going to convince me that the Hacking skill in Shadowrun was created to fit this definition or situation. Game RAW aside, social engineering is a tool of a hacker, it is not hacking in and of itself. So is a fake uniform and the ability to convince a receptionist to open up the server room because you're there to fix a shorted coolant fan. That's not hacking, that's a con and that's the weapon of the smart black hat hacker.

QUOTE (Cain @ Nov 5 2008, 12:24 PM) *
I'm sorry, did I say 'unsecured network'? I should have specified "secured". I can break network keys without rewriting a single line of code.
And I can scramble my cube mate's computer by sticking the original OS disk in and pressing reformat. That doesn't make me a hacker. The disk does all the work.

QUOTE
The fourth doesn't imply it at all. In fact, it perfectly describes what I can do, and I am without any meaningful programming skills. I've logged onto several networks without permission. And that doesn't even get into the "script kiddie" phenomena, where people with skills like mine use high-powered programs to do all kinds of nasty things to computer systems. Script kiddies can't program, yet they can cause all sorts of damage.
The fact that the fourth definition doesn't in any way contradict the first three doesn't lend that argument much weight. Also, there's a difference between knowing and exploiting flaws in system software with sequences of code (Hacking) and actually writing raw code or even knowing what it does (Software Programming).

EDIT
Matsci
QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Nov 5 2008, 07:28 PM) *
That doesn't fly in the rule-set of Shadowrun. You don't work code, you don't hack.


You got that backwards. As long as you know have the programs, and the skill to use them, you can hack. Name one time you need the software skill to hack.
Tarantula
Hacking to me is gaining access without permission. That does not include needing to modify code. Its description supports this... SR4, 124, "Hacking skill is used to exploit and subvert the programming of computers and electronics, specifically Matrix systems and interactions. For specific uses of the Hacking skill, see Hacking, p. 221."

On the other hand, data search, SR4, 123, "This is the character’s research ability, their ability to use search engines, databases and other tools to track down information online or in computer storage. Data Search includes the character’s ability to refine search parameters as well as her knowledge of lesser known archives and resources. See Using Data Search Skill, p. 220."

I don't see anything in either the description for data search, or the using data search skill section that says it allows you into offline storage, or into restricted/protected systems.

In contrast, look at the info sortilege echo for technos. Unwired 146, "The insights and information from following these datatrails should be beyond what mere search operations or basic research would uncover."
...
"Depending how information is hidden, the search might also lead the technomancer to nodes that have to be hacked to acquire the information therein."

So, by RAW, info sortilege uncovers more than just search would. An example of which is leading the technomancer to nodes that need to be hacked. This means that data search cannot even do that much, and can only provide the data that is completely available without any hacking needed for access. Furthermore, data search can't even find the nodes you need to hack to find your information for you.
Cain
QUOTE
That doesn't fly in the rule-set of Shadowrun. You don't work code, you don't hack.

As Matsci pointed out, that is not the case. It's trivial to hack a system with no skill, only superior programs. Programs are of equal importance with skill, in the Skill + Program equasion. I think Tarantula put it best: I'm at Skill 0 in hacking, and need to default; but I have a decent Exploit program. Such a character would be entirely possible under the SR4 rules, and could match someone with a much higher skill, but crappy programs.

QUOTE
That doesn't make me a hacker. The disk does all the work.

I certainly don't consider myself a hacker, but I've heard of lots of script-kiddies who do think of themselves that way.

QUOTE
The fact that the fourth definition doesn't in any way contradict the first three doesn't lend that argument much weight. Also, there's a difference between knowing and exploiting flaws in system software with sequences of code (Hacking) and actually writing raw code or even knowing what it does (Software Programming).

The fact that the fourth definition doesn't contradict the other three means it expands on it. Besides which, even when I accessed computers by exploiting computer tricks, I didn't need to inject code, or write a single line.

Think of it this way. A Web designer should know lots of HTML, right? Well, nowadays with the helper programs like Frontpage, it's not necessary anymore. The programs do all the actual coding for you, so the web designers just have to make everything look nice.
Wesley Street
QUOTE (Matsci @ Nov 5 2008, 02:12 PM) *
You got that backwards. As long as you know have the programs, and the skill to use them, you can hack. Name one time you need the software skill to hack.
Sorry, I hit SUBMIT too quickly so I'll rephrase. You don't work with code, you don't hack.

No, you don't need Software to hack.

QUOTE (Tarantula @ Nov 5 2008, 02:44 PM) *
Hacking to me is gaining access without permission. That does not include needing to modify code. Its description supports this... SR4, 124, "Hacking skill is used to exploit and subvert the programming of computers and electronics, specifically Matrix systems and interactions. For specific uses of the Hacking skill, see Hacking, p. 221."
Exploiting and subverting the programming of computers and electronics requires some familiarity with programming. Programming is code. Unless you're working with a steam-powered abacus.

QUOTE (Cain)
As Matsci pointed out, that is not the case. It's trivial to hack a system with no skill, only superior programs. Programs are of equal importance with skill, in the Skill + Program equasion. I think Tarantula put it best: I'm at Skill 0 in hacking, and need to default; but I have a decent Exploit program. Such a character would be entirely possible under the SR4 rules, and could match someone with a much higher skill, but crappy programs.
I don't use the traditional Skill + Program equation in my games as I recently discovered the hard way that it leads to serious game imbalance. That's a major flaw in the Matrix BBB rules which is why I use the optional RAW Attribute rule from Unwired:

QUOTE
Unwired, page 39.
Rather than relying on technology to determine a character’s efficacy in the Matrix, Attributes may be factored back into the various tests in the Matrix. To do this, replace the program or complex form in each Success, Opposed, or Extended Test with the appropriate attribute (usually Logic). The maximum number of hits (not net hits) that can be generated by each Matrix Test is limited to the rating of the program or complex form in a manner similar to the way Spellcasting hits are limited by the Force of a spell.


QUOTE (Cain)
The fact that the fourth definition doesn't contradict the other three means it expands on it.
If that's the interpretation you choose to take that's fine but in traditional scientific methodology when three of the four paths lead in one direction and the fourth path holds traits similar to the first three, logic dictates it will most likely follow the former.

QUOTE (Cain)
Besides which, even when I accessed computers by exploiting computer tricks, I didn't need to inject code, or write a single line. Think of it this way. A Web designer should know lots of HTML, right? Well, nowadays with the helper programs like Frontpage, it's not necessary anymore. The programs do all the actual coding for you, so the web designers just have to make everything look nice.
Exploiting a computer system without directly manipulating its code would fall under the Hardware skill in SR game terms, not Hacking. Electromagnetic pulse guns, unplugging a server, sticking a disk into the right slot to upload a shut-down program, knowing how a wi-fi system broadcasting box works, jabbing a screwdriver into a wall socket to make a terminal overload without killing yourself... all that stuff falls into Hardware.

I'm sorry, I'm confused as to where your Frontpage analogy was implying. That WYSIWYG software does the work for you? The software manipulates the code for you as a proxy. But if you don't have the skills to use the tools, your abilities are going to be limited. I guess you could call people like that web programmers but working as one for the past 10 years, I wouldn't.

EDIT
MaxMahem
Quite frankly, I'm not sure what you guys are arguing about any more. It should be clear that by the rules Data Search does not involve any serious hacking, which in Shadowrun terms most importantly means gaining access to a node you would otherwise be forbidden. Since you do not use the 'hacking' skill for data search, or use exploit programs, its meaning in the Shadowrun sense should be clear. Which is again, that you cannot pull information off of restricted nodes with data search, it only sorts through information that you already have accessible. Either from a node you have already penetrated, or that which is freely avaliable on the matrix. If any what we might IRL call hacking is involved, it is of the most basic kind, of faking registrations and the like, which is probably best covered by a characters fake SIN.

This is a good place to point out that Data Search leaves a traceable data trail as well (as do all Matrix actions). Which may have consiquences when searching for sensative information. It might be very possible for a coporate hacker to turn around and do a data search on those doing data search on a sensative subject.

QUOTE (Cain @ Nov 5 2008, 03:04 PM) *
Think of it this way. A Web designer should know lots of HTML, right? Well, nowadays with the helper programs like Frontpage, it's not necessary anymore. The programs do all the actual coding for you, so the web designers just have to make everything look nice.

I'm not sure what this analogy is supposed to support, but its dead wrong. The idea that you can be a good web-designer just by using Frontpage and having no knowledge of HTML, CSS, and the like is just laughable. A program like Frontpage can certainly help, but no one who does it with any seriousness relies sole upon such a program.

I guess in IRL if you were to web-design using only Frontpage, and no skill you would be defaulting. Your results would be poor and immediately obvious. And anything more complicated than a simple crappy geo-cities style page would be nearly impossible.

Cain
QUOTE
I don't use the traditional Skill + Program equation in my games as I recently discovered the hard way that it leads to serious game imbalance. That's a major flaw in the Matrix BBB rules which is why I use the optional RAW Attribute rule from Unwired:

That's fine, but you're also discussing a house rule. For the purposes of this discussion, we're not discussing the house rules, but the strict RAW.
QUOTE
Exploiting a computer system without directly manipulating its code would fall under the Hardware skill in SR game terms, not Hacking. Electromagnetic pulse guns, unplugging a server, sticking a disk into the right slot to upload a shut-down program, knowing how a wi-fi system broadcasting box works, jabbing a screwdriver into a wall socket to make a terminal overload without killing yourself... all that stuff falls into Hardware.

I'm sorry, I'm confused as to where your Frontpage analogy was implying. That WYSIWYG software does the work for you? The software manipulates the code for you as a proxy. But if you don't have the skills to use the tools, your abilities are going to be limited. I guess you could call people like that web programmers but working as one for the past 10 years, I wouldn't.

Call it the script kiddie thing again. When you just need to push a button to hack a wi-fi network, you're still hacking it. You may not be a full-fledged, honest-to-god decker; but you are doing the work of a hacker. You don't have to manipulate code in order to hack a network. Sometimes, you can get away with just exploiting existing loopholes, without touching a line of code.

Since we're not allowed to discuss actual hacking methods here, I thought Frontpage and its ilk would make an easier analogy. Instead of having the skills yourself, you can have high-powered programs do most of the work for you. I understand that "smart compilers" are even the way programming is going these days: instead of coding from scratch, it assembles code out of predesigned sub-programs, and mixes them into your desired result. (And before you say: "No one who's a real programmer does things that way", I'll point out that the odds are that your OS *was* written that way.)
Wesley Street
QUOTE (Cain @ Nov 6 2008, 12:21 AM) *
That's fine, but you're also discussing a house rule. For the purposes of this discussion, we're not discussing the house rules, but the strict RAW.

How is a rule from a core rulebook published by Catalyst a house rule? A house rule is a rule that is used in a game only in a specific place, a particular venue, or only among a certain group of players.

QUOTE (Cain @ Nov 6 2008, 12:21 AM) *
Call it the script kiddie thing again. When you just need to push a button to hack a wi-fi network, you're still hacking it. You may not be a full-fledged, honest-to-god decker; but you are doing the work of a hacker. You don't have to manipulate code in order to hack a network. Sometimes, you can get away with just exploiting existing loopholes, without touching a line of code.

Since we're not allowed to discuss actual hacking methods here, I thought Frontpage and its ilk would make an easier analogy. Instead of having the skills yourself, you can have high-powered programs do most of the work for you. I understand that "smart compilers" are even the way programming is going these days: instead of coding from scratch, it assembles code out of predesigned sub-programs, and mixes them into your desired result. (And before you say: "No one who's a real programmer does things that way", I'll point out that the odds are that your OS *was* written that way.)

Fine. If you want to interpret the word hacker to mean all that, I'm not going to tell you you can't as I no longer have any idea of what I could say that wouldn't be me repeating myself. And I don't want to play any more "what's the definition of the word" games. Words mean different things to different people. Such is the imprecision of spoken/written language. So be it.

The RAW are very specific in defining the Hacking skill and the Data Search skill. If you want to blend them up and mash them up, that's cool as it's your game but you can't do that and then come back and say that the SR4 rules are broken and expect it to be held up as a valid argument. The first poll had a landslide 42-to-3 agreement that all question-answering Legwork via RAW cannot be accomplished using just Data Search rolls. And 30-to-18 agreed that 50% or less of all Legwork (however you want to define that) cannot be done just using the Matrix. If you won't acknowledge your fellow Dumpshockers as having a legitimate voice on this question then you should ask yourself if you're looking for an answer or if you're looking for a problem. I can only speak for myself but I find that looking for a problem rather than a solution makes the game a lot less fun.

EDIT
Tarantula
QUOTE (Cain @ Nov 5 2008, 10:21 PM) *
That's fine, but you're also discussing a house rule. For the purposes of this discussion, we're not discussing the house rules, but the strict RAW.

Call it the script kiddie thing again. When you just need to push a button to hack a wi-fi network, you're still hacking it. You may not be a full-fledged, honest-to-god decker; but you are doing the work of a hacker. You don't have to manipulate code in order to hack a network. Sometimes, you can get away with just exploiting existing loopholes, without touching a line of code.

Since we're not allowed to discuss actual hacking methods here, I thought Frontpage and its ilk would make an easier analogy. Instead of having the skills yourself, you can have high-powered programs do most of the work for you. I understand that "smart compilers" are even the way programming is going these days: instead of coding from scratch, it assembles code out of predesigned sub-programs, and mixes them into your desired result. (And before you say: "No one who's a real programmer does things that way", I'll point out that the odds are that your OS *was* written that way.)


You've yet failed to address where I illustrated where in the RAW it shows that data search does not include any hacking, nor does it even find data hidden in a secured node.
Malachi
Trying to resolve RL mechanics into the SR ruleset is a fool's errand. The game will run far smoother if one simply accepts the abstraction that the game mechanics define/provide and move on from there.

It seems every person that has a deep knowledge of a particular subject finds SR's abstraction of that subject lacking:
* Gun experts think SR's firearms rules are lacking
* Cryptology experts think SR's encryption/decryption rules are lacking
* Communications experts think SR's jamming/e-warfare rules are lacking

This is not new. SR has never (that I have seen) claimed to be the authoritative game for accurate simulations of shooting, hacking, decrypting, or e-warfare. It presents a fictional story in a fictional universe that has some relation to real life. Trying to jam more realism into SR only brings in the "non-fun" element, IMO.

A good friend of mine (and the guy who introduced me to SR) is a military Communications expert. He did a tour of duty in Afghanistan with the Canadian Forces. He knows all about communcations, cryptology, and e-warfare in a battlefield scenario. He said that SR's jamming, interception, and e-warfare rules were an extreme over-simplification and had very little bearing on reality... then he shrugged and said, "...but I don't care." Why didn't he care? Because the simple rules make for a better game.
Cain
QUOTE
How is a rule from a core rulebook published by Catalyst a house rule? A house rule is a rule that is used in a game only in a specific place, a particular venue, or only among a certain group of players.

The fact that you yourself labeled it as "optional" pretty much covers it. It is not a core rule, if you want to be pedantic about it.
QUOTE
You've yet failed to address where I illustrated where in the RAW it shows that data search does not include any hacking, nor does it even find data hidden in a secured node.

Except Data Search specifically refers to unearthing hidden sources of data.
Tarantula
Hidden yes, as in, you can't just run a browse test and find it.

Secured behind a password no, because it doesn't include hacking at all.
Wesley Street
QUOTE (Cain @ Nov 6 2008, 03:08 PM) *
The fact that you yourself labeled it as "optional" pretty much covers it. It is not a core rule, if you want to be pedantic about it.

Optionality of a rule is irrelevant. It's still RAW. Whether it's applied or not is up to the GM and the players.

And it says "core rule book" right on the spine, so...
Malachi
Ascribing too much power to Data Search brings back the "why does anyone do anything else" problem. I know its very "gamey" logic but that is what is necessary to make some rule "blips" make sense.

For instance, something that has come up in my group is the power of a Social Test. We have a Face in the group that has half a million dice to throw at Social test (like every Social specialist in SR4... but that's a different story). The player often gets frustrated that merely throwing a ton of dice at a Social Test doesn't result in the people of the world magically becoming his slaves or something. I've been trying to explain to him that Social Tests are not mind control. Even though the book gives a (what amounts to inconsequential) penalty for an action that "would be disastrous to the NPC" that doesn't mean that the NPC will do whatever you want if you succeed in the test. Walking up to Hanzo Shotozumi and saying, "I think you want to retire and make me head of the Seattle Yakuza" definitely counts as "result disastrous," but I don't care how many successes you get, it's not going to happen. No matter what the book says. Why not? Because if it worked like that, some megacorp would each have made a few hundred of those Driad, Social Adept, Emo-toy wielding, give-me-everything talkers and rule the whole world right now. So, obviously, you can't get whatever you want by getting a few dozen hits on your Social Test.

By the same logic, I'm not going to give people whatever info they want just by rolling a bunch of hits on their Data Search. The fact that Mr. Johnson is a deep-cover agent for AZT and is secretly a Blood Shaman, is not going to be available on a Data Search. I don't care what the book seems to suggest.
Cain
QUOTE
By the same logic, I'm not going to give people whatever info they want just by rolling a bunch of hits on their Data Search. The fact that Mr. Johnson is a deep-cover agent for AZT and is secretly a Blood Shaman, is not going to be available on a Data Search. I don't care what the book seems to suggest.


Yeah, but that's not information a contact is likely to know, either. In fact, if there's going to be any clues within reach of the runner team, they'll be on the Matrix.

Don't forget that we've left out Info Sortilage, which if it were faster, would render normal Data Searching moot. It really does have the issue of being too powerful.
toturi
QUOTE (Malachi @ Nov 7 2008, 05:55 AM) *
Why not? Because if it worked like that, some megacorp would each have made a few hundred of those Driad, Social Adept, Emo-toy wielding, give-me-everything talkers and rule the whole world right now. So, obviously, you can't get whatever you want by getting a few dozen hits on your Social Test.

Why not? If they could make a few hundred of those Driad, Social Adept, Emo-toy wielding, give-me-everything talkers. The point is that they can't. If the very best (although mass produced on a larger scale) they can do with their security/military forces are the Renraku Red/Tir Ghost which a competently designed PC street sam could outclass, then it also stands to reason that the megacorps can't make those talkers. So obviously, you can get whatever you want by getting a Critical Success on your Social Test.
Malachi
QUOTE (Cain @ Nov 6 2008, 09:03 PM) *
Yeah, but that's not information a contact is likely to know, either. In fact, if there's going to be any clues within reach of the runner team, they'll be on the Matrix.

Well, I guess that's just the difference between your view of the world and mine. I would think that it's more likely that a Contact would have a clue to something really secret like that than just by doing a Matrix search. Keep in mind when you are making these statements/decisions that they are in the realm of your (or your GM's or whatever) "interpretation" of the world. It's not the RAW's fault that you've decided that almost everything is easier to find on the Matrix.

QUOTE (toturi @ Nov 6 2008, 09:27 PM) *
Why not? If they could make a few hundred of those Driad, Social Adept, Emo-toy wielding, give-me-everything talkers. The point is that they can't. If the very best (although mass produced on a larger scale) they can do with their security/military forces are the Renraku Red/Tir Ghost which a competently designed PC street sam could outclass, then it also stands to reason that the megacorps can't make those talkers.

Fine, "a few hundred" is an exaggeration but I'm certainly of the belief that "any character a PC can create, a megacorp can create an equal or better one." I think it has been well established in fluff and crunch that the elite units of the megacorps will blow away starting PC's. Heck, corps get many of their elite units from veteran Shadowrunners.

QUOTE (toturi @ Nov 6 2008, 09:27 PM) *
So obviously, you can get whatever you want by getting a Critical Success on your Social Test.

Are you really going to give that power when there are "pornomancer" builds throwing 30+ dice on a Social Test?
toturi
QUOTE (Malachi @ Nov 7 2008, 12:53 PM) *
Fine, "a few hundred" is an exaggeration but I'm certainly of the belief that "any character a PC can create, a megacorp can create an equal or better one." I think it has been well established in fluff and crunch that the elite units of the megacorps will blow away starting PC's. Heck, corps get many of their elite units from veteran Shadowrunners.

Are you really going to give that power when there are "pornomancer" builds throwing 30+ dice on a Social Test?

Fluff, not really, since fluff is often through the perspective of someone within the game world. Crunch, also no, since a properly made street sam does hold his own against (if not better) the SR4 canon statted Red Sam and Tir Ghost. Those so called elite that you are talking about are built with Prime Runner rules and those like PCs are supposed to be quite a bit rarer than your "elite".

Am I really going to give that power to my "pornomancer" PC?

Me: Hiya Mr Pornomancer Player! So do I give that kind of power to you?

Player: Indubitably. All according to RAW, of course.
Malachi
QUOTE (toturi @ Nov 7 2008, 01:55 AM) *
Player: Indubitably. All according to RAW, of course.

... and what can be done on a Social Test, according to RAW?

Can I walk into a bank and get them to give me a $100M loan by winning a Negotiation (or Con) Opposed Test? Can I then turn around and get them to forgive the loan with another test? Can I then convince the majority shareholder in a megacorp to sell to me for a fraction of the share's worth by making another Test? How do Social Adepts not rule the entire world?
Tarantula
QUOTE (Cain @ Nov 6 2008, 06:03 PM) *
Don't forget that we've left out Info Sortilage, which if it were faster, would render normal Data Searching moot. It really does have the issue of being too powerful.


No, I didn't. I brought it up, because it does EXACTLY what you are letting data search do. Even though info sortilage takes considerably longer. And says it exceeds the abilities of data search, and even info sortilage can not get info from secured nodes that would need to be hacked. It explicitly does more than data search, and explicitly does not get information from those nodes, but can point you to them so you know where to hack. The reason your data search is broken, is because you are giving it the power of info sortilage without the drawbacks.

When you compare data search to info sortilage, if info sortilage can only point to the secured must hack nodes for the information, then data search (being stated to be less capable than info sortilage) can't even do that much. You've still yet to directly address this besides saying "raw says it says it finds hidden data" which I didn't not disagree with. Raw does not say that it finds secured data that must be hacked to be obtained.
Malachi
QUOTE (toturi @ Nov 7 2008, 01:55 AM) *
Crunch, also no, since a properly made street sam does hold his own against (if not better) the SR4 canon statted Red Sam and Tir Ghost.

I think the stats for the Red Sams and Tir Ghosts need to have some sort of errata or "supplemental" power-up. I just checked back in some SR3 stuff and both of those forces have taken a serious turn for the worse. The Red Samurai outlined in First Run have stats on par with a fairly well-optimized PC Street Sam, along with a Mage with a nice array of spells. All of them also come with top-notch armor (Arsenal lists Red Samurai armor as 13/13, better than what is listed in the BBB). The Tir Ghosts as published in Corporate Punishment are way better than those listed in the the SR4 BBB. In the SR3 book they are all Initiated Physical Adepts with a complementary set of Adept Powers and Cyberware.

Ghost Cartels lists the stats for an Aztechnology Cuachicqueh (a "Shorn One," black ops specialist) and he will beat the pants off of a whole party of starting PC's (he's an Initiated Adept, again with a complimentary mix of Powers and Cyberware). In other parts of Ghost Cartels, the book suggests using sample PC stats for many of the other "faceless" NPC's. I don't think there's any way a Red Samurai should be worse than some ghoul's chop-shop doormen. I realize that the suggestion of using sample PC's is just a short-hand so that not every NPC in the campaign needs to be fully statted out, but given the NPC's that are given unique stats, and are intended to be serious opposition to the PC's, I think the BBB's NPCs need to have a serious revision for a boost in ability.
Ravor
Or the NPCs/PCs need to be spelled out as having lowered dicepools in general...
Cain
QUOTE (Malachi @ Nov 7 2008, 09:43 AM) *
Ghost Cartels lists the stats for an Aztechnology Cuachicqueh (a "Shorn One," black ops specialist) and he will beat the pants off of a whole party of starting PC's (he's an Initiated Adept, again with a complimentary mix of Powers and Cyberware). In other parts of Ghost Cartels, the book suggests using sample PC stats for many of the other "faceless" NPC's. I don't think there's any way a Red Samurai should be worse than some ghoul's chop-shop doormen. I realize that the suggestion of using sample PC's is just a short-hand so that not every NPC in the campaign needs to be fully statted out, but given the NPC's that are given unique stats, and are intended to be serious opposition to the PC's, I think the BBB's NPCs need to have a serious revision for a boost in ability.

That's true for just about all the characters presented in the BBB. They're all hideously underpowered for their roles. Some are better than others, but for the most part, none of them are designed for the power levels a starting character can achieve.

QUOTE (Ravor @ Nov 7 2008, 09:55 AM) *
Or the NPCs/PCs need to be spelled out as having lowered dicepools in general...

Hey, that's my line! wink.gif Seriously, though, that is what I try to do. I limit dicepools, rather than nerfing any given ability. I just ask my players nicely, and I haven't had a problem with it.
Tachi
QUOTE (Cain @ Nov 5 2008, 03:38 AM) *
They then come back with specific questions ("Where's the best place to steal a snowplow?" keeps coming up for some reason nyahnyah.gif) and narrow down the plans further.


I realize you probably don't actually care about the answer to this question, but here it is anyway just in case:

If you need road maintenance machinery as well as any other county owned machinery (snow plows, road graders, front-end loaders, etc.) your best bet is your local county shop (the place where they do maintenance on the cop cars and such). In many places this is where they actually store such things, in other cases there will usually be one or two of whatever you are looking for on the premises in various states of disrepair. Just be careful to get the one they already fixed. You're also more likely to find the keys in the vehicle here, since the machine is more likely to move around frequently.

And now, I'm off to find someone else who doesn't actually need my help. rollin.gif
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012