Reach modifiers would stack
Full Version: Shiva Arms
would they?
really?
for real?
so a troll with 6 arms and 6 swords would get +7 reach at least?
anything to support the notion of reach stacking?
really?
for real?
so a troll with 6 arms and 6 swords would get +7 reach at least?
anything to support the notion of reach stacking?
I thought the armor values for body parts averaged, ie. :
(arm+arm+leg+leg+torso) / 5
gave you the 'natural body' armor to which worn armor was added.
I don't see how 6 1 metre arms added to a body could give it a reach of 6 metres ( ie. +6). Do 2 arms give you a reach of +2?
Peter
(arm+arm+leg+leg+torso) / 5
gave you the 'natural body' armor to which worn armor was added.
I don't see how 6 1 metre arms added to a body could give it a reach of 6 metres ( ie. +6). Do 2 arms give you a reach of +2?
Peter
I guess the logic for reach mods stacking is that one can attack with multiple long arms, not that they can reach further the more arms they have.
Not much support for even the saner interpretation though, since Arsenal states that wielding two reach 1 weapons first of all requires the attacker to split their dice pool, and further imposes a penalty on the defender, rather than providing further dice mods to the attacker. I guess if one had multiple arms one might try to dual-wield polearms, but this all gets too complicated for my tastes, so I would politely request that a player not make a character whose principal schtick gave me such a headache.
Not much support for even the saner interpretation though, since Arsenal states that wielding two reach 1 weapons first of all requires the attacker to split their dice pool, and further imposes a penalty on the defender, rather than providing further dice mods to the attacker. I guess if one had multiple arms one might try to dual-wield polearms, but this all gets too complicated for my tastes, so I would politely request that a player not make a character whose principal schtick gave me such a headache.
Though I suppose a Cyber-Shiva Armed troll with those Grapple Arms could pull a Doctor Octopus off pretty well. 
hell, with this you could do the ultimate mundane climber even better probably O.o
would not be surprised too much, if one can hardcap him at 60 instead of 44 dice ^^
As for Cyber-Armor: It stacks, all of it, with whatever else you can squeeze in there.
that's the one true most beneficial part of cyberlimbs as of today . . get a torso, synthetic, allways covered up good, armor it up, have it sculpted to look like muscles pure and you can take a full auto shotgun to the chest and only get a dent . .
would not be surprised too much, if one can hardcap him at 60 instead of 44 dice ^^
As for Cyber-Armor: It stacks, all of it, with whatever else you can squeeze in there.
that's the one true most beneficial part of cyberlimbs as of today . . get a torso, synthetic, allways covered up good, armor it up, have it sculpted to look like muscles pure and you can take a full auto shotgun to the chest and only get a dent . .
Hyzmarca says that babies don't bounce when dropped on concrete.
Hyz, apparently you failed to have a high-Force spirit Possess the baby, giving it bonus BOD (and a creepy evil voice). I assign you the penance of watching "It's Alive".
Hyz, apparently you failed to have a high-Force spirit Possess the baby, giving it bonus BOD (and a creepy evil voice). I assign you the penance of watching "It's Alive".
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Dec 16 2008, 07:35 AM) 
I thought the armor values for body parts averaged, ie. :
(arm+arm+leg+leg+torso) / 5
gave you the 'natural body' armor to which worn armor was added.
(arm+arm+leg+leg+torso) / 5
gave you the 'natural body' armor to which worn armor was added.
That was the case in SR3, but apparently no longer.
An email conversation dated Feb. 8, 2007 between me and Rob Boyle on the Shadowrun help site:
So, it's definitely SR4, and while I don't think there was an 'official' missive on this issue, I went with Rob's opinion to average the limbs (elsewhere 'limbs' was defined as arms, legs and torso, but not head) for my games.
Peter
QUOTE
Hi Peter,
> I sent this message quite a while ago, and as you guys are usually quick in your responses, I wonder if the message got lost. It could be that it is a difficult question, and you need time to figure it out, and if so please forgive me for bothering you with this repeat send.
No, I just haven't gotten around to answering yet. I'll take a quick shot at it here.
The way it was intentioned, IIRC, was that cyberlimb armor really only applied when that particular limb was targeted with an attack (like a called shot, or only that part of the person isn't behind cover). So it doesn't normally get added to the character's overall Armor rating. This was partly for simplicity. It's a bit different from helmets and shields because helmets cover a more vital area and shields cover more of the body.
I can see an argument for adding at least part of the value in, however, so I would allow it. In that case, I'd add the average Armor value, though (using non-armored limbs as a 0).
Cyberlimb armor should be treated as "natural" and not worn armor, yeah.
Correct.
I hope that helps
:: Rob Boyle ::
Shadowrun Developer for FanPro LLC
info@shadowrunrpg.com ~ www.shadowrunrpg.com
> I sent this message quite a while ago, and as you guys are usually quick in your responses, I wonder if the message got lost. It could be that it is a difficult question, and you need time to figure it out, and if so please forgive me for bothering you with this repeat send.
No, I just haven't gotten around to answering yet. I'll take a quick shot at it here.
I understand how the calculation for BOD, AGI and STR works for determining the average values for those Attributes in a character. It is not clear to me how armor works. There seem to be two options to deal with it. Does either of them apply?
1) ARMOR IN INCREMENTS
In a character who is not cybered, wearing an armored vest, which covers only the torso, gives that character an armor value equal to that of the vest. Covering only the head with a helmet adds to the armor rating of the individual, rather than requiring an averaging calculation. A small shield does the same. It would seem, then, that adding armor to a cyberlimb would also increment the overall armor rating of the character, rather than requiring an average to be calculated.
Particularly if only one cyberlimb had armor, and the other limbs, cyber- or otherwise, did not, an averaging would require using a value of 0 for those limbs in the calculation.
The way it was intentioned, IIRC, was that cyberlimb armor really only applied when that particular limb was targeted with an attack (like a called shot, or only that part of the person isn't behind cover). So it doesn't normally get added to the character's overall Armor rating. This was partly for simplicity. It's a bit different from helmets and shields because helmets cover a more vital area and shields cover more of the body.
I can see an argument for adding at least part of the value in, however, so I would allow it. In that case, I'd add the average Armor value, though (using non-armored limbs as a 0).
2) ‘NATURAL’ ARMOR
Following that idea of the value of 0 for unarmored limbs, worn armor adds onto an averaged natural body armor of 0, which could be augmented by cyberlimbs. Only after the average ‘natural’ armor value is calculated is the worn armor value added. This would then pretty well require all five cyberlimbs to be armored before it would have any effect.
Cyberlimb armor should be treated as "natural" and not worn armor, yeah.
B))
If cyberlimbs have armor enhancement, is it reasonable to presume that this armor value is considered ‘internal’, and therefore does not count in the encumbrance calculation on p.149 of SR4?
Correct.
I hope that helps
:: Rob Boyle ::
Shadowrun Developer for FanPro LLC
info@shadowrunrpg.com ~ www.shadowrunrpg.com
So, it's definitely SR4, and while I don't think there was an 'official' missive on this issue, I went with Rob's opinion to average the limbs (elsewhere 'limbs' was defined as arms, legs and torso, but not head) for my games.
Peter
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Dec 17 2008, 08:43 AM)
An email conversation dated Feb. 8, 2007 between me and Rob Boyle on the Shadowrun help site:
So, it's definitely SR4, and while I don't think there was an 'official' missive on this issue, I went with Rob's opinion to average the limbs (elsewhere 'limbs' was defined as arms, legs and torso, but not head) for my games.
Peter
So, it's definitely SR4, and while I don't think there was an 'official' missive on this issue, I went with Rob's opinion to average the limbs (elsewhere 'limbs' was defined as arms, legs and torso, but not head) for my games.
Peter
Damn so the cyber armor is completdly useless.
again
Excepting that it now doesn't contribute to encumbrance, and thus stacks, so if you get all 4 limbs plus your torso armored, you could be seriously packing some protection even before you layered on anything else.
yeah so?
that's one of the few advantages of cyberlimbs as they are regarded in SR4 right now . . one of the many bad points of SR3 limbs was the simple fact that armor was averaged . . ok, back in the day it was pretty easy to get mucho armor and body to resist with . . after the fact of dodge and combat pool dice . .
if i don't have the averaging wrong, if you have ONE ARM with 6 armor built into it, you get +6 armor . . if you have TWO ARMS with 6 armor built into EACH of them, you get, due to averaging . . 6 armor . . having paid double essence and money costs . .
that's one of the few advantages of cyberlimbs as they are regarded in SR4 right now . . one of the many bad points of SR3 limbs was the simple fact that armor was averaged . . ok, back in the day it was pretty easy to get mucho armor and body to resist with . . after the fact of dodge and combat pool dice . .
if i don't have the averaging wrong, if you have ONE ARM with 6 armor built into it, you get +6 armor . . if you have TWO ARMS with 6 armor built into EACH of them, you get, due to averaging . . 6 armor . . having paid double essence and money costs . .
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Dec 17 2008, 03:56 PM)
yeah so?
that's one of the few advantages of cyberlimbs as they are regarded in SR4 right now . . one of the many bad points of SR3 limbs was the simple fact that armor was averaged . . ok, back in the day it was pretty easy to get mucho armor and body to resist with . . after the fact of dodge and combat pool dice . .
if i don't have the averaging wrong, if you have ONE ARM with 6 armor built into it, you get +6 armor . . if you have TWO ARMS with 6 armor built into EACH of them, you get, due to averaging . . 6 armor . . having paid double essence and money costs . .
that's one of the few advantages of cyberlimbs as they are regarded in SR4 right now . . one of the many bad points of SR3 limbs was the simple fact that armor was averaged . . ok, back in the day it was pretty easy to get mucho armor and body to resist with . . after the fact of dodge and combat pool dice . .
if i don't have the averaging wrong, if you have ONE ARM with 6 armor built into it, you get +6 armor . . if you have TWO ARMS with 6 armor built into EACH of them, you get, due to averaging . . 6 armor . . having paid double essence and money costs . .
Actually, if you have ONE arm with 6 armor and no armor anywhere else, then you have an average of 6+0+0+0+0 which comes to 1 with rounding. Unless that arm is specifically targeted with Called Shot, in which case it gets all of its armor.
Peter
is the one 6 really averaged with all other limbs, even if they are not cyber but still meat?
or does the averaging only apply if there's more than one limb?
and how does this work with other implanted or natural armor?
or does the averaging only apply if there's more than one limb?
and how does this work with other implanted or natural armor?
All limbs are included in the equation, regardless of the presence of cyber armor.
so, basically, you're getting the shaft again with cyberlimb armor . . what happens when there's a limb, but the limb is not armored? especially if the rest of the body has, for example, orthoskin?
When the question first came up, in the Augmentation Q & A thread, we heard one thing; now Rob says something else. At this point, I think I'll wait for an errata, or at least an update to the FAQ.
I don't care for the averaging, myself. I would rather have smaller values (similar to what you can get from PPP) that add to armor, than higher values that you have to average. It seems to break Shadowrun's abstract armor system unnecessarily.
I don't care for the averaging, myself. I would rather have smaller values (similar to what you can get from PPP) that add to armor, than higher values that you have to average. It seems to break Shadowrun's abstract armor system unnecessarily.
My post concerning the averaging of armor was specifically referring to SR3. In SR4, cyberlimb armor is cumulative. There are many posts from Synner, and even a few from Rob that state this unequivocally.
look up some posts then.
the fugly blue colour up there is hard to read, but dealing with this topic . . again . .
the fugly blue colour up there is hard to read, but dealing with this topic . . again . .
If I get the chance, but you could do that as easily as I could. Or you could send Synner a PM, or even email Catalyst for an official response.
If you average, and you have Shiva cyberarms, you end up even worse off than a normal human with armored cyberlimbs. If you don't average, things get out of hand quickly. Is there anything resembling a middle ground?
I would say just cap the armor at something like no more than 2 per limb or something. +2 armor for one limb is very nice, and if someone has two legs, two arms, and a torso, they might well be harder to hurt after all of that metal(not to mention, if they pay that much nuyen and essence, and use up capacity for the armor, I don't think it's that out of hand.) It's 10 armor, sure, but they paid a *lot* to get it. Typically, a GM will probably only be dealing with folks with an extra 4 or so to armor(2 limbs.) And yeah, remember the armor takes capacity, which can be used for things like more Agility and gyromounts to shoot things better. 
(and better grade limbs have less capacity, if I recall...so they don't get to save as much Essence if they want to stuff them fuller.)
(and better grade limbs have less capacity, if I recall...so they don't get to save as much Essence if they want to stuff them fuller.)
Our party's solved this by going to a location-based damage system, with only a specific limb's armor counting. We've had to tweak the armor ratings of most gear a bit (since an Armored Vest and an Armored Suit should give the same protection, just over less area), but in the end it works out pretty well.
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