Ive read in shadowrun cannon that Islam.. for the most part... does not tolerate magic. How accepting is Islam of metahumans in the shadowrun setting, particularly the fundamnetalist jihadist sort?

They throw stones at them until they stop being an insult to Allah. More or less.

Nah Islam is fairly cool about magic. Well, like all the big religions, there are many sub-faiths in Islam, and some totally embrace magic while others do not. But overall, Islam accepted magic much more than, say, Christianity did.

Metahumans, though... yeah, not so much. Metas face severe persecution in the Islamic world. My memory is fuzzy on this, but there are 2 major divides right now (Shadowrun "right now") in the Islamic world. The old schoolers are fundies that hate metas and would never work with them. But there is a new counter-movement gaining popularity that preaches tolerance and acceptance of metas.

I was reading the thing about the Shadam that posessed the Islamic leader and it talked about how it was hard to detect due to Islam's rejection of magic. Inder the Islamic Magic tradition in Street magic it gives the impression that most of Islam distains magic.

I have no idea where cannon stands on this, but here are my feelings on Islam and Metahumanity.

Islam (like most successful religions) has always been a big on conversion. Either by choice or by force in some cases, but it has proven to be fairly inclusive as far as race goes (though not, obviously gender). Fundamentally all one has to do to be a Muslim is to practice the 5 pillars of Islam. I see no reason for that to change in the sixth world.

Plus, I think thematically it is cool if Islam, which we currently view mostly as an oppressive regressive religion, but was very progressive in the past, becoming more progressive again in the future. At least where acceptance of meta-humanity is concerned. The concept of Islam accepting Orks and Trolls into the mix, while keeping women repressed compelling thematicaly. Plus, the image of an devout Muslim ork/troll religiously doing the Salah (praying 5 times a day) is cool to me.

As for magic, I'm mixed about it. I have no clue what the current Islamic beliefs concurning sorcery are, but I do know that Islamic/Persian mythology is full of it. So I would think that it would probably be mostly accepted with perhaps new sects forming along pro/anti magic lines. Maybe the current major Sects (Sunni and Shi'a) merge, then split into new groups over this difference?

Islam can join the Japanese and the Catholics as people who have been screwed over in the setting by wretched implausibilities. In Islam, the fundie whackos are apparently the majority now (or at least have infected the majority with their regressive beliefs). In Catholicism, apparently they have been mostly displaced from Ireland (!) and Mexico (!). And the Japanese have regressed to their xenophobic WWII days. I know it's a distopian setting, but come on.

I guess that's why I laugh when people get too hung up over realism - parts of the metaplot are so ludicrous that they only work if you just ignore them as much as you can, and try not to think about them too hard.

At least with Islam, there are still some moderates, and you can certainly have progressives in places like the UCAS or India.

alternate reality timeline, starting from around the 80's.

sr is what some thought the future would hold back then, with a dash of interesting interpretation of certain calendar...

and a lot of the early material was written with a "would it be cool if" angle, and unless one is willing to pull a nwod on the timeline, its something one has tto learn to live with...

It has been argued by some that Islam is a victim of its tendency to be -too- inclusive, and absorbing influences from cultures drawn into the fold. Fundamentalist sects, female genital mutilation and such are cultural elements that come not from the core beliefs but local peoples. Before the Crusades, Christians, Jews and Muslims lived in harmony in the Middle East.

Peter

I agree with you mostly. Some things in the SR Metaplot have always struck me as wildly implausible (Native American revolution especially). Thus I have done like you and largely done my best to ignore them as much as possible. Which is why, for example, I have run my most recent campaigns in NYC and Miami.

However, for things like Islam attitude towards Metahumanity and magic, which tough on the meta-plot only relatively lightly, I have no qualms about changing them.

I am mixed about Japan though. There is even today there a lot of xenophobic racism over there, especially when it relates to other Asian people. But there is also a meme of acceptance, even of (or especially of) the very strange. A resurgent, even imperial Japan is also a major Cyberpunk theme, so I am mostly okay with their choices over there.

Gotta agree with Glyph. I'm Irish-Mexican, and part of the reason both sides of the family were relatively enthusiastic about my parent's marriage was due to everyone involved being Catholic. I mean, honestly guys, my upbringing was painfully Catholic. I mean that quite literally; there was a private school and a stereotypical grumpy-nun-with-a-ruler involed in 2nd grade.

I like the game system, and the 'Ware is, IMO, the BEST implementation of augmentation in any game I've ever seen. That aside... some of the fluff has me mashing the "I BELIEVE!!!!!!" button pretty damn hard. Honestly, governments are the LAST people to give up power. They love it too damn much to share.

"I guess that's why I laugh when people get too hung up over realism - parts of the metaplot are so ludicrous that they only work if you just ignore them as much as you can, and try not to think about them too hard."

Amen to that!

My favorite is when people are discussing what amounts to Astral metaphysics and break out objections like "I'm sorry, but that clashes with common sense,". Hey guys, you know what else is counterintuitive? Pretty much everything that came out of quantum phsyics ever! But don't let this stop you from nitpicking how pretend alternate dimensions work in a game in which Dunkelberry the Dragon was handily elected president.

Actually, I lived in Ireland for a while and out of the dozen or so Irish people I was friends with, not one went to church or had anything beyond a passing belief in religion (though all would say they were Catholic if you asked them). So Ireland honestly doesn't really suprise me much.

As far as Islam, it seems to me that the general stereotype is that Islam doesn't look kindly on magic, but it seems to almost be a cultural rather than a religious thing - i.e. in Iran, it's a big deal since Tehran got taken down by a dragon and anything having to do with the Awakening is a huge no-no. In many other Islamic countries, especially ones like Malaysia where the Islamic Renaisance Movement is big, magic and the supposed long tradition of Islamic magic (discussed in Street Magic, I think) is totally fine with most people. I also remember that metahumans were persona non grata in Iran, but no one really cared much about metatype in Iraq. So it depends more on culture, IMO, than religion.

I'm sure that different sects have different views on the subject, and am equally sure that the "metahumans are demons" sects and the "Orcs are ok as long as they're not mages" sects are leaving blood and bullets all over the middle east, especially when latter's leader is a troll.. some sects have been cowed by the destruction of Tehran, others have only been inspired to vengeance. Then there are moderate groups trying to embrace, or at least learn to live with, the changes in the world.

It might be worth looking into what metavariants and infected metavariants you would get in the middle east. Someone who knows more about islamic, arabic, and persian mythology than me will have to answer that one, though.

From what I read in SoA, most Middle Eastern Muslims look quite firmly down on anything remotely related to the Awakening. The few mages in Islamic lands are viewed with suspicion. Part of this is because any type of magic or mysticism is seen as the work of the devil, but also because the vast majority of Islamic mages are Sufis -- the whirling dervishes -- and Sufism is a small and distrusted sect of Shi'a Islam (Sunnis are the majority of Muslims, and they generally dislike Shi'as, so of course they'll dislike the "mystic" Shi'as even more). While the immediate and massed stoning of metahumans stage seems to have passed except in the really hardcore areas (like Iran), I'd surmise that it's still not a good idea to be a meta in the Middle East unless you're a glutton for punishment.

Now, for all of the Muslims outside of the Middle East, those same rules probably do not apply. For the most part, expatriate Middle Easterners and converted Western Muslims have been more progressive and liberal than those in say, Saudi Arabia or Egypt, so I can see a practicing Muslim from London or NYC as a mage without having any sort of crisis of conscience.

Kurds, Iraqis, and Lebanese are the most likely Muslims to be a mage or accepting of all things Awakened. Lebanon is one of the most civilized (in the Western, Occidental sense of the word) Middle Eastern nations with the majority of its Christians, Jews, and Muslims living in relative harmony (note: I did say majority, not counting the Palestinian expatriates and their attendant fanaticisms). I can tell you from personal experience that most Kurds are Muslim the way most Irish are Catholic: sure, I will say I'm Catholic when asked, but I only go to mass on Christmas, Easter, or after a particularly brutal night of debauchery. Plus, they've got a Great Dragon watching their back, so that opens lots of magically doors for them. Iraqis just tend not to be fanatical about much so long as outsiders don't stick their noses into their personal business (then they get possessive).

as long as all the others properly respected muslim laws and customs, iirc...

and islam is not the only religion to have done one hell of a job mixing local customs and global religion. thats how christianity got spread.

sure, its called christmas in english, but its still yule by name around my part of the world

and before that, the romans pulled a similar trick. the "conquered" areas could keep their religions, they just had to put the roman ones on equal footing (and zeus on top, not that they needed to really pray to him).

people are "funny" that way, as long as they can keep on doing their thing, they dont care who leads or collects taxes. bread and circus to the nth degree...

in some ways, the same thing is happening via the global spread of US culture, thanks to multinational corps, hollywood and satellite tv...

Not really, the Muslims conqured the areas that were once part of the Eastern Roman Empire (the Byzantine empire), which at that point I'm not sure who controlled the areas south of present day Turkey (probably a local warlord type figure) and east of Tunisia. The initial Jihad by muslims pretty much ecompassed all of this area of the middle east (including egypt). One of the differences is that early Islam accepted people of the book (Jews and Christians), but required them to pay extra taxes for not being muslim. But I digress...the crusades were a direct (if delayed) response to this. Part of this was due to the Moors in spain trying push up further into Europe. As for everyone living in harmony in the middle east, that isn't true (the Kurds still wanted their own homeland at this time too).


Now one of the ironic things is that the Crusades eventually led to the destruction of the Byzantine empire.

Then Japanese, Catholics, and Islamic people should look on the bright side. At least they are not form California.

True dat.

Really Glyph? From what I've read, it appears there are still very large numbers of Catholics in both Ireland and Mexico. The sections of the old books talking about the new Templars said (I believe) that they were working in both areas with believers. It's just that in both areas, the Catholics were smart enough to shut up instead of dying when the regime changed (similar to how the Russian church reappeared almost overnight after the USSR collapsed).

And while culturally Japan is really interesting, they have had their... moments. Is it really completely implausable that they would revert to Imperialism? A huge portion of the society is very conformist.

Not to mention that the Japanese people might have been pursuaded into complacency with their new imperialisim by propaganda.

"Hey! Why can't we have a military again?"

It's unlikely that they would return to imperialism with either the speed or the enthusiasm at that speed in the way it's presented. Even during the imperial period of the 20th century, it's not like it was as bad as it was presented in Shadowrun. The Taisho period punctuated imperialism with fairly progressive democracy, and from the Meiji to Taisho periods there was a great deal of "on again, off again" with regards to military buildup. It's only from about 1932 to 1945 that you see the sort of guns-blazing, kick you in the junk, nihon ichiban attitudes that seem to be de rigeur in Shadowrun.

Now don't get me wrong, I can easily see 70 years producing another Empire of Japan - much more so that Germany going back to being Nazi, which would be nigh impossible. But the way they present it in canon, it's almost as if the nation literally went to bed one night being all about democracy, capitalism, and international relations, and then the next morning woke up and said, "Screw you toolboxes, we're a bunch of quasi-facist assholes now." Propaganda takes time to work. This was more like a mind control ray.

But a large part of cyberpunk is fear of a Japanese planet. So, you know. I can overlook some of it for that. And besides, it puts Japanese language commonality on par with English language commonality. Which is awesome.

a fear rooted in watching american companies bought left and right by japanese ones, with the resulting clash in leadership styles and other stuff...

now that i think about it, would the zaibatsu of japan be the model of the SR megacorps?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaibatsu

hell, there is at least one zaibatsu style megacorp operating within SR, iirc...

and outside of the california stunt, im not sure the imperial japan of SR can really be compared to the WW2 one...

It's not as if Japan doesn't have a military today, they just label it "Defense Forces" or somesuch.
And in spite of the fact that they have frozen their military budget at not more than 1% of the household, the fact that Japan is still one of the biggest industrial nations in the world, with an accordingly huge household, results in Japan having one of the biggest military budgets in the world.
In the public opinion, the "peace consitution" of 1945 is still held in high esteem, but having neighbours such as North Korea, Russia and the People's Republic of China could change that quickly.

Of course, this does not make SR Japan that much more likely.



Which might be one of the reasons why Japan got a complete overhaul in 4th edition, turning it into a rather benevolent superpower now, including an abondonment of their official anti-metahuman policy.

Hm, sometimes i think i'd had preferred a complete reboot of the setting instead of patching up things that seem out of style nowadays...



They're the model of the megacorps in 1980's cyberpunk, so indirectly, yes.



The Yomi chapter in Corporate Enclaves suggests that it acted worse enough to justify that comparison.

meh, times move on and things change, but the mega's stay on top...

It wouldn't be to write the megas out of the setting, just to fix some of the more blatant inconsistencies of the setting.
But then, it wouldn't be SR if it made sense, so who cares?

heh, look to recent history, how much sense does it make that CIA basically bankrolled al-qaeda?

the enemy of your enemy is your friend, but watch out as he could very well become your enemy tomorrow...

Hmm... Perhaps it was...

Although do keep in mind, I doubt Japan "voted" to become imperialistic. And most of the big-wigs in Japan were interconnected (hence zaibatsus), and so not quite so independent and competitive as they are now. Plus, Japan does have a royal family. If the heads of some of the big corps, the emperor and a number of political big wigs decided it would be better to transition to a faster, 'more efficient' form of government, could they do so with minimal fuss? If both your government and your job said "we're doing things this way now", how hard would you fight?

Woman arenot oppress in Islam that was one mistake the 19th and early 20th century western imperister make when they thought they can destory Islam by freeing the oppress women an convert then to christianly. I than a convert muslim than almost all muslim women dress modestly and wear the headscraf except for afew women who belong to another sect where women donot cover they hair or head. The two main sect of Islam must share the one mosque, thought they have they own
place of prayer for non-firday noontime prayer, on firday they show up at the mosque.
About abuse of women in Islam, Islam doesnot allow wife beating. The Queen of Jorban said in one of her U-Tude Video 1 out 3 women in the world is beating which mean all religion share in the burden of wife beating. In the city I live there are four shelter for women who are abuse not one of then is muslim they are all christian women. There are between 3000 to 6000 muslin where I live out of 1 million people. As for homosexual, homosexual sex is forretin in Islam an doing then in public can get you execute, but I as than muslim cannot go hunting down homosexual with my muslim friends to murder then for being homosexual is also not allow as they have civil and human right. It two homosexual do they act in privates of they home is allow. Islam in it early history recognite the privately of the home expect in case of afew major crime. No vice cop breaking into bedroom to see what going on.
Also day to day muslim donot follow all of the minor rules of religious scholar like you cannot wear makeup as than women but 99% of the women do wear some makeup, they never ask the religious scholar about wearing makeup and the scholar never notice the women wearing makeup.

Pakistian court sentence than bisexual man to death for rapeing over 100 boys and girls an murdering then. Some Christian Fundie try to use this to tell the homosexual community that Islam will kill you all. I show some of then Pakistan wedsite telling about what he did. One of then said it he did these crime then the Pakistan have thr right to execute him.

Women might (big might; I am not conceding this point) not be horribly oppressed, but when I was at my cousin's funeral earlier this year, her mother could not stand next to the graveside with the men. Incidently my mother wasn't allowed to either, and she's not Muslim. So let's just say I don't believe you.

So, your argument is that because people can be gay in hiding, they aren't oppressed? Right... "act straight in public or you'll be killed." It's good that there aren't lynching squads roaming the streets for giggles though.

Edited for new post: are you really trying to imply on dumpshock that the people here are either Christian fundamentalists, or listen to them for their current events/world view?

P.S. Maybe the reason there isn't a domestic abuse center dedicated to Muslim women (out of only 4 shelters) in the city you live is because... there are only 6,000 muslims out of a million residents? O-o


Anyway, I'm not sure if it's cannon, but my general impression (in SR) is that traditional Islam is intolerant of magic. Street Magic has several examples for Islamic magic characters (and from memory they were mostly "since your tainted anyway, try to serve God, if you must persist in using magic"). And wasn't there the whole "Great Dragon smacked the jihad down" thing? Of course "contemporary/western" muslims are going to be fine with magic (at least a lot more so), just like non-hardcore Catholics are going to be more ok with magic (summoning is a no-no if your being a good Catholic, at least without permission).

There is gender seperation in the religious pactive of Islam, next time ask someone why something is the way it is. When I was grown up the homosexual community did practive acting normal in public and doing they think in private.
In the village I grew up in Long Island the homosexual of new york city have than party house set up in the 1950's as one of it member save the police chief life during WW2, the deal was they act normal in public an the local childern where not to be use in they sexual act. They kept up they end of the deal as Many place wouldnot allow than homosexual party house. Most mulslim in my city do try to practive they religion compare to some muslim majority nation. If like in the jewish religion wife abuse is rare as soon as the jewish community frind out they do something about it, they elder leader along with the religious leader will have than talk to that man about it. Then the jewish community court will grant than end to the marraige. Islam will judge new idear on they mertit but Islam also say change for change statke can cause problim like unrest. Too much change in a short period of time is bad for any societry.

I an aware there is gender seperation. The fact that the genders were seperated kind of gave it away (ignoring that I had looked up muslim burial traditions already). The fact that my mother, a non muslim, could not stand at the graveside of her niece, who she had known since she was born, is the point.

(Personally, I don't have much of a problem with Islam. It is a religion, so there are going to be problems, because every religion has issues.)

Ok, I've tried reading it a few times, and I am having a really hard time figuring out what your saying. I believe my responce shall be: your community is a minority group in a larger city, so it's probably not a good representation of an (argueably oppressive) majority in its home area.

It is harder to be than muslim in america and in some america place alot harder compare to liveing in a muslim nation where many muslim donot know alots of the religious belief. First it is hard to not look at some of the immodestly dress woman where they show they show part of they naked breast and show too much of they body. Also we arenot allow to eat
pork or drink alchol. There are stricted food rules which some muslim follow but not eating pork is the one that all must follow. I than not implying anything. But there are afew Christian Fundie who are trying to spead false report about Islam by say to the homosexual they are going to hunt you down.

The Emperor doesn't really have any say in it the way things are. Constitutionally, he's a powerless figurehead. All authority lies in the elected Diet. Any changes to Japan's Constitution requires a supermajority in both Houses of the Diet and a majority in a public vote. This isn't easy to achieve, and hasn't been achieved, ever, since its inception.

If they tried to make major Constitutional changes without going through the proper procedures, there would be a huge stink about it, and it would likely destroy many political careers. Pacifist political sentiment is still strong enough to totally obliterate the possibility any unilateral unconstitutional militarization slipping past the radar without sparking massive social upheaval and possible rioting or revolution. There would need to be a majority of public support for it and that support could only come from a rather huge external threat or massive social changes.

Thankfully, we have The Awakening, the collapse of the USA, and North Korea launching nuclear missiles at them.

The three together are pretty much ensure total public support of the JIS.
With Shinto priests (Buddhist too, but the two aren't incompatible) now throwing around fireballs, summoning kami, and exorcising demons, it isn't a far leap to the conclusion the Emperor's mythological divine heritage might be less myth than fact. With the collapse of the USA and the withdrawal of American forces from the area, Japan was substantially more vulnerable to Communist aggression than ever before, and with the Communists becoming fairly aggressive, this would naturally make people nervous. And the whole nuclear missile thing probably pushed it over the edge, just a little. You think the people are just going to laugh it off and invite North Korea to launch some more nukes at them?

And, AngelisStorm, don't be ignorant. It makes you look ignorant.
Restrictive and oppressive gender roles are an issue of concern everywhere and generally have more to do with cultural tradition than religious faith. As with all of the major inter-cultural faith's, the role of women in Islam varies widely depending on the geographic location and cultural background of the individuals concerned.


Barenziahlover58, syntax is your friend. While it is not difficult to understand the general meaning of your posts, it is uncomfortable to read them, and it is possible that some subtly of meaning is lost.

There are time than figuer head can yield real power. When the nerse gas attack took place the prime minister of than one man party(all the major party have than huge sex and money sancal,now of then where unable to be than prime minister) order the military to help the police deal with this crise where the cult said they have biowarfare agents. The military refuse to obey as he was than draft dodge in WW2 and they didnot to wear police unform. When the Emporor hear this he summon the general to see him and he told then blank piont that they where wrong since the police have no training in handleing biowarfare agents and poision gases and since the military isnot allow to do police work inside Japon they will have to wear police unform and they must obey the prime minister when he give than reasonable order.

Barenz, at first I want to say that you should consider this in no way and at no time as a personal attack.

But I have to ask what your first language is, because your English could use a little work.

Now then. You're speaking from experience in what I gather is a small expatriate Muslim community. I have spent a total of 26 months in an Arab country, working alongside actual Arab Muslims, so I can tell you from experience that, by Western standards, their women are oppressed. Here's an example: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,256980,00.html

This woman was kidnapped, beaten, and gang-raped by seven men fourteen times. She was given a year in jail and 90 lashes -- which upon her appeal was increased to 200 lashes for the temerity of questioning the court. The prosecutor in the case asked for the death penalty for five of the attackers; the max that any of them got was five years in jail.

If this is the sort of punishment a woman gets for being in a car with a man not of her family, I'd hate to say the sort of thing that an Islamic court would do to, say, a ork female magician. Dismemberment tops the list.

Pointing to Saudi Arabia as the average example of the treatment of women in Islamic states is sort of like pointing to Nazi Germany as the average example of the treatment of Jews in Europe or South Africa under Apartheid as the average example of the treatment of Black people in Africa. Excepting Taliban Controlled Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia has the worst women's rights record in the entire Middle East.

And, really, Fox News? It isn't exactly the most reliable of sources. I'd rather go with the more balanced reporting of Wikipedia before getting my feathers in a twist over it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatif_girl_rape_case .

So yeah, Saudi Arabia isn't exactly the best place in the world for women at the moment.

But the bigger picture is substantially more complex. Saudi Arabia is only one country. A broader look will show some countries that are fairly progressive, and others that still need a great deal of work, but are getting there. The actual situation varies greatly from country to country depending on cultural tradition and political history.

Do you know how Mohammed (I don't care how you spell his name) spread his religion? By murder. By the sword. Kill those who don't believe. Kill those who believe, and leave the religion. Kill Christians because they're Christian. Kill Jews because they're Jewish. Kill Buddhists, Druids, and Hindus because they're pagan. Kill people who question the religion. Kill those who might not be practicing Islam like you think it should be practiced. That's what Islam teaches (note the present tense). The radical muslims are the ones who preach peace and acceptance*. And that's the simple truth of it.



Look at this.

It started in blood, and it's been doing fairly well since.

Believe it or not, I actually went back through this and edited out a few things to make it more palatable. The above statements are factual, except where noted by an asterisk (*).

Oh really? Islam teaches that when men get to Paradise, they get 72 virgins to sleep with eternally, whom they'll never tire from, and will regain their virginity after sleeping with them. Let's ignore the fact that only 4 of them (I think it's 4, might only be 2) are human, the rest are specially created by Allah out of gemstones (pale enough to see through, their kidneys are rubies, ect.).

Women? They get to be deflowered continually for eternity. Doesn't sound fun or pleasant, much less consentual.

heh, islam is not the only religion to be spread by the sword. thats how christianity got to norway back in the day.

hell, there is even a play being held each year about whats probably the best known battle related to this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stiklestad

Actually, that's how non-Christians thought they were spreading the word of God. That applies equally to Islam (they think Allah is God, when in actuallity he's a pagan moon-god) and to the Crusades.

EDIT: Edited for completion.

meh, im of the view that all religions (or at the very least those that claim they have the backing of religion for their acts) to be equally bad.

the big problem is that for some 99% of humanity, culture and religion is so intermixed that trying to separate one from the other is like trying to remove the liver from a living human...

i view it like this: if god exist, he/she is not much interested in whats happening on the surface of some dust ball in a corner of a much grander experiment...

I do agree with you about the religion part: I can't stand religion.

However, what grander experiment? What other sign of life, if any, have we ever found? The answer: none. Nada, zip, zero. We're it.

In any event, as obviously volatile as real Muslims are in the real world, metas and (probably) mages (can't remember any sura about magic off the top of my head) would be more violently met than gays and women without headscarves IRL.

Radical muslims in more contemporary areas (UCAS, CAS, possibly England or France, though these are already becoming as violent as ME muslims [because they immigrated; they're from the ME]) might be more open to metas and almost definately more accepting of magic. Here in America there are some muslim women who wear tee shirts and shorts with the headscarves. So, in effect, anything's possible.

Hyzmarca, everyone has thier moments. However it is not ignorance to recognize that there is a connection between majority faiths and cultural traditions. The opening statement was "Woman arenot oppress in Islam." Anyway, I dropped it (as can be seen), but I wanted to address that.

*reads the rest of the posts* Oh cool, other people already did that.

http://www.setileague.org/general/drake.htm

also, whats the chance that two points of life would develop so close together and so spaced in time that one would be able to detect the presence of the other over interstellar distances.

or why would "life" be the aim of the experiment? why cant the very universe be said grand experiment, with life being just a small offshoot of that?

Looked at it. It is very funny. I haven't laughed so hard since the first time I heard Prussian Blue sing. Damn, I really want to see those girls perform a concert in Germany.

As someone from the American South, and thus someone who has substantially more experience with the issue than most Europeans, Britons included, or Texans for that matter, let me just tell you that the page in question sounds very much like a hysterical Klansman rambling about how the niggers are gonna rape all our White women.

Listen, I understand how it is. Btirons don't know how to deal with immigration and most of their immigrants are Muslim. Of course. This isn't particularly surprising on either account. There has always been immigration, of course, but it has never been as big as it is now, with globalism and whatnot, particularly in Britain. What used to be a trickle now seems like a flood. And, really, their government and their people suck at dealing with it, simply due to a lack of experience. Nothing wrong there. America has made all of those mistakes, and plenty worse, when dealing with immigration.
But you know what we found works? The "melting pot" style. Don't just herd people into ethnic ghettos and be done with it and don't let them wall themselves off from the rest of the country. Both are recipes for disaster. Instead, subsume their traditions into your own, and interject your traditions into theirs, slowly but surely. You do that, and the differences between people become less and less, and they start seeing chosen nationality as being more important to their identities than their ethnic origins are.

Web sites like that one, they ain't gonna solve nothing. And that double negative was purely for flavor, not an attempt to subtly convey an opposite meaning. They are really and truly useless, just a bunch of sensationalism thrown up and called news. Well, I'll you what. You don't need none of that. Something I learned long time ago, people gonna fling up BS all they want, yes siree bob. And some people are gonna read it. And some of those people are gonna believe it. And that's why the bullshit gets flung up their in the first place. But it don't matter how many people believe it, it still sinks just as bad.

Don't rely on lists of anecdotes thrown together by people with agendas and do some real research. (Really, that 72 virgins crap, don't get me started on it, 10 seconds on Wikipedia would disabuse you of that. But this isn't a thread about scripture, it is one about practice, so I won't bother doing for you what you should be able to do for yourself.)

Edit: Neraph, fuck, did you just go there? I mean, hell, pointing out polythestic origins of major monotheistic faiths is all good fun, I love doing that myself. (One of these days I'm going to set up an Alter to Yahweh and his beloved wife Asherah and sacrifice a bull to them or something. ) But it is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
And quoting scripture to support an argument unrelated to scripture, that's just bad form. It is also a losing battle. If you take any major holy text and pull out a quote. I can find an opposing quote in the same book, which negates it either fully or at least sufficiently for my purposes. They're written so that everybody can see something in them that supports their own personal predilections and prejudices, it is why they're so popular.

Listen, I'm an equal opportunity misanthropic morally nihilist . I will be happy to challenge almost anyone for almost any reason. It's fun, I enjoy it. I'm not going to give Muslims a break any more than I give anyone else. But there are only four lines that I will not cross. 1) I will not insult a women's breasts, for any reason. I love tits of all shapes, sizes, and colors, even horrifically scared ones resulting from invasive cancer removal surgery. 2) I will not attack a friend behind his back for any reason, or to his face except in good fun and good taste (though there is no accounting for taste). 3) I will not apply group stereotypes to an individual or blame the group for the actions of an individual. and 4) I will not challenge untestable religious beliefs using things totally external to those beliefs, except logic. There is, of course, a very good reason for this one. Because you cannot determine the validity of such beliefs using external gauges or measures.

3) and 4) are of issue here. 3) is what that website you linked to is doing, and I just can't stand for it. Yeah, some people are idiots and some people are assholes. You can't judge an entire religion just by a few of them. There is no sense in looking at all the bad apples and ignoring the good ones.
Of course, quoting the scripture of one religion to disprove the validity of another is what 4) is all about. You can see why that is an asinine tactic, don't you?

I'm sorry, man, but what you did there isn't cool. For many reasons.


Of course it isn't. But it is ignorance to forget that cultural traditions color interpretation of faith more than faith colors cultural traditions, particularly in this case, where the regional disparity is so great. Heck, it isn't just cultural, either. Changes in government



Listen, lets just get back on topic for this one. I'm going to ask the people in the know, devs and freelancers, about one issue that hasn't been covered to my knowledge. How does the Nation of Islam (the American Black-nationalist offshoot of Islam that believes that W.D. Fard was the physical incarnation of Allah) view the Awakened?

Not where I come from, there you muslims supress us catholics. And by the way, I think you do live a much better in america, then christian people do live in north africa or the middle east.


Oh boy, you got real problems..

And that just about says it all about your views of women.