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Dragnar
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jan 7 2009, 11:26 PM) *
1)
One must find a pirate network, with a minimum of 1 day active search on the Matrix. (Unwired, p. 94)

Which means every average user with no idea of how to operate a matrix search at all just using a decent tool to do the work for him will find one in about a week. An agent would be a lot faster and doesn't tie up the char during that time at all.

QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jan 7 2009, 11:26 PM) *
2)
One must search for each program separately, with a threshold of 12 or more.

And an intervall so small that even searching for every skill in existence takes less than an hour.

QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jan 7 2009, 11:26 PM) *
3)
Points 1) and 2) are subject to glitches, and more importantly, the countermeasures of software manufacturers. Surely we don't think there won't be agents and sprites out there looking for just such activity? And doing it for a day straight, or longer? Come on. Welcome to cybercombat 2 minutes into the character's game-life.

That would be nothing more than a houserule to arbitrarily devalue pirated software, however. I'd assume most pirate networks have at least about 5 MILLION users online at any given time (which is a conservative estimate, as that would be a lot less than todays file-sharing networks) so saying some spy agent caught the player specifically isn't any more plausible than saying "oh, the skillwires you bought were glitchy. Roll edge or have them explode.". I don't have players get ambushed by Ares hitsquads every time they buy a predator from their dealer, so why should that be different?

QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jan 7 2009, 11:26 PM) *
4)
Pirated software ratings degrade, monthly. (Unwired p. 109)

No, they don't. As the paragraph on the page you referenced indicates, only hacking programs and malware degrade that fast. Everything else degrades every two months.

QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jan 7 2009, 11:26 PM) *
5)
Pirated software you have paid for may turn out to be something else, or infected. (Unwired, p. 109)

Ignoring the fact that there shouldn't be any computer viruses in the SR world at all, considering how long they take to write, while still being less usefull than an unrestricted agent, even including the cost of a good analyze agent to semi-reliably get about 4 hits on the verification pirated software comes out ahead.

QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jan 7 2009, 11:26 PM) *
6)
Even Pluscode software cannot exceed the rating of the skillwire. (Unwired, p. 94) So the Pluscode (3) activesoft (4) takes up one slot, but still requires a skillwire (4) to run it.

It still allows you to run 8 skills at the same time, though, which was the original point made.

The whole thing becomes even crazier if you consider that a rating 4 skillsoft is technically available for free using the (admittedly "optional") freeware rules.
Now, I don't think regular old skillwires are particularly broken, but the crazy unwired rules made them absurd, but that seems to be par for the course for SR4 matrix rules...
Muspellsheimr
Restricted Gear: 5 Build Points
4/4/4/4 Commlink: 2 Build Points
Move-By-Wire 2: 17 Build Points
Data Search 4 Activesoft + Browse 4 Program: 3 Build Points
High Lifestyle: 2 Build Points
3/1 Piracy Network Contact (National Influence, Broad Matrix Resources): 10 Build Points
1,200 Nuyen remaining: included in previous costs

Result:
39 Build Points
Buy hits for Rating 4 Pirated Activesofts (7 Combat Turns per Activesoft)
Minimum Starting Nuyen: 8,000 (Five R4 Activesofts w/ R3 Pluscode)
Average Starting Nuyen: 13,000 (Eight R4 Activesofts w/ R3 Pluscode)
Maximum Starting Nuyen: 18,000 (Twelve R4 Activesofts w/ R3 Pluscode)

Note: You can run eight of these Activesofts at a time. Future Activesofts w/ Pluscode cost 1,500 Nuyen each.


Also, I am fairly certain the pirating rules are not optional, they are core.

This is all assuming your GM is being an asshole & not allowing Pirated Software during character generation (legal software is nearly useless, due to the traceability)
Mäx
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Jan 8 2009, 01:08 PM) *
Note: You can run eight of these Activesofts at a time. Future Activesofts w/ Pluscode cost 1,500 Nuyen each.

So what, where's the problem.
So she has her shoice of 8 ratin 4 skill at a time, where does the problems come from she still cannot really do much without the rest of the team.
toturi
She runs 8 now, a different 8 the next time interval she needs to change the previous 8 and yet a different 8...
Stahlseele
am i wrong when i am assuming, that this gets REALLY broken, when the character in question has hgh attributes to use with those skills AND some boni from other stuff too? O.o
like, 12 strength for a rating 4 skillwire, that's 16 dice right there?
agility would cover one heck load of skills . .
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Jan 8 2009, 12:08 PM) *
Also, I am fairly certain the pirating rules are not optional, they are core.

Yeah, that's the real problem with the whole SotA rules for programs.

BTW, you don't need a network contact - it doesn't even help you aquiring cracked software/patches by RAW. Though having a black hats network on hand is always handy.
pbangarth
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Jan 8 2009, 04:08 AM) *
Also, I am fairly certain the pirating rules are not optional, they are core.

Yeah, the words "... more options for using the Matrix..." (Unwired p. 93) led me to see the whole set as optional. I'm not sure that is the case.

QUOTE
Restricted Gear: 5 Build Points
4/4/4/4 Commlink: 2 Build Points
Move-By-Wire 2: 17 Build Points
Data Search 4 Activesoft + Browse 4 Program: 3 Build Points
High Lifestyle: 2 Build Points
3/1 Piracy Network Contact (National Influence, Broad Matrix Resources): 10 Build Points
1,200 Nuyen remaining: included in previous costs

Result:
39 Build Points
Buy hits for Rating 4 Pirated Activesofts (7 Combat Turns per Activesoft)
Minimum Starting Nuyen: 8,000 (Five R4 Activesofts w/ R3 Pluscode)
Average Starting Nuyen: 13,000 (Eight R4 Activesofts w/ R3 Pluscode)
Maximum Starting Nuyen: 18,000 (Twelve R4 Activesofts w/ R3 Pluscode)

Note: You can run eight of these Activesofts at a time. Future Activesofts w/ Pluscode cost 1,500 Nuyen each.

I follow your arithmetic here and while I am not too familiar with the Lifestyle options you use, the numbers add up. What I am concerned about is not the numbers but some of the underlying assumptions. A major thrust in the argument that skillwires break the game is that it is dead easy and cheap to build a character who can do a lot of things really well. The numbers above by themselves support that argument.

What isn't up there are some other costs. For example, the 3.0 Essence cost of the move-by-wire is more efficient than wired reflexes and skillwires together, but it is -not- inconsequential, particularly as this will be added to other implants commonly used by hackers and others. There are serious ramifications to having a low Essence which are usually glossed over in such calculations. Not the least of which is a damn tough time healing. One should include the Essence cost in discussions of how easy it is to be a certain type of character. A further issue is the belief that chargen itself is somehow broken.

QUOTE
This is all assuming your GM is being an asshole & not allowing Pirated Software during character generation (legal software is nearly useless, due to the traceability)

I approach this point from two angles. The first is that much of the gear acquired at chargen is traceable, from vehicles to weapons to software and more. The game has built into it the assumption that you have dealt with that in some way. Otherwise you would have to go through the 'piracy' angle for nearly everything you buy.

The second angle is related to the first. There are mechanisms built into the game which I think are the foundation for the assumption above. Rules for cracking code (SR4 p. 228) and patching code (U p. 118) are among those mechanisms that allow a character to deal with traceability issues regarding purchases of legal material. These are doable in down time or 'before time'. As an aside, these rules and others are prime examples of parts of the system that make a hacker actually -having- a LOG attribute worthwhile.

You and others have suggested that a GM would be unjust in not allowing Pirated Software at chargen because of the traceability of legal materials. Nobody seems to be complaining about the flipside...the GM allowing a character to make it to game play without suffering the consequences of blatantly illegal behaviour during chargen (such as acquiring all those restricted and forbidden weapons etc.), and in good old Traveller fashion killing or jailing the PC during chargen.

Peter
cryptoknight
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jan 8 2009, 11:15 AM) *
What isn't up there are some other costs. For example, the 3.0 Essence cost of the move-by-wire is more efficient than wired reflexes and skillwires together, but it is -not- inconsequential, particularly as this will be added to other implants commonly used by hackers and others. There are serious ramifications to having a low Essence which are usually glossed over in such calculations. Not the least of which is a damn tough time healing. One should include the Essence cost in discussions of how easy it is to be a certain type of character. A further issue is the belief that chargen itself is somehow broken.


Eh? I see not much impact to healing... especially with a medkit.

QUOTE
Physical Damage
Make a Body x 2 (1 day) Extended Test. The character must
rest for the entire day for it to count (forced naps and unconsciousness
also count). Each hit heals 1 box of Physical damage.


With the -1 dice pool for 3 points of essence loss (even -2 if you want)... a character with 4 body rolls 6 dice... A troll with 9 (soft capped) or Orc with 8 (soft capped) rolls 16/14 dice respectively... per day... a Human with 5 body... rolls 8... and aside from essence, that's pre-modifiers... such as using a lvl 6 medkit (cheap) or an autodoc, or a character with medical skills.

5 body = 10 dice
-2 (essence)
-1 (indoors)
+6 (medkit)
---
13 dice for a human with 5 body to heal... each day.

Trolls and Orcs roll another 8 or so dice...

This means if you get say 9 physical damage (huge bodily wounds and stuff) in two days... you get up and should be fine.
Stahlseele
Troll Healing has allways been kinda dumb . . especially stun vs physical . . and i say that as a fan of trolls . .
if i did not misunderstand something here, then he could recover from almost severed limbs faster than from a headache . .
Malachi
Depending on Skillsofts for your character means you are relying on your technology. An intruding Hacker (if he gets into your system) could affect your character on a very fundamental level. Arguments can even be made that an intruding Hacker could turn such a character into a "bio-drone" manipulating all of their motor functions as they see fit. Rely on it at your own risk.
cryptoknight
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 8 2009, 12:45 PM) *
Troll Healing has allways been kinda dumb . . especially stun vs physical . . and i say that as a fan of trolls . .
if i did not misunderstand something here, then he could recover from almost severed limbs faster than from a headache . .



You're correct on that one. The first time after I had transitioned from 3rd (really more like 2.5th) with its healing times to 4th... I was amazed to watch the players recover from wounds that used to take weeks...

Of course a 10 box stun damage has a time interval of 1 hour, instead of 1 day... so Figure the Troll has 9 body + 3 Will power... that's still 12 dice rolled every hour to recover 10 boxes... a full blown migraine headache goes away in about 3 hours.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Malachi @ Jan 8 2009, 12:29 PM) *
Depending on Skillsofts for your character means you are relying on your technology. An intruding Hacker (if he gets into your system) could affect your character on a very fundamental level. Arguments can even be made that an intruding Hacker could turn such a character into a "bio-drone" manipulating all of their motor functions as they see fit. Rely on it at your own risk.

A hacker cannot intrude on an implant with disabled wireless connections unless he actually cuts you up to access it physically, in which case you are fucked anyways.
HentaiZonga
QUOTE (cryptoknight @ Jan 8 2009, 11:00 AM) *
Eh? I see not much impact to healing... especially with a medkit.



With the -1 dice pool for 3 points of essence loss (even -2 if you want)... a character with 4 body rolls 6 dice... A troll with 9 (soft capped) or Orc with 8 (soft capped) rolls 16/14 dice respectively... per day... a Human with 5 body... rolls 8... and aside from essence, that's pre-modifiers... such as using a lvl 6 medkit (cheap) or an autodoc, or a character with medical skills.

5 body = 10 dice
-2 (essence)
-1 (indoors)
+6 (medkit)
---
13 dice for a human with 5 body to heal... each day.

Trolls and Orcs roll another 8 or so dice...

This means if you get say 9 physical damage (huge bodily wounds and stuff) in two days... you get up and should be fine.


You forgot to include the Wound Penalties.
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (Malachi @ Jan 8 2009, 02:29 PM) *
Depending on Skillsofts for your character means you are relying on your technology. An intruding Hacker (if he gets into your system) could affect your character on a very fundamental level. Arguments can even be made that an intruding Hacker could turn such a character into a "bio-drone" manipulating all of their motor functions as they see fit. Rely on it at your own risk.


Ding! Ding! Ding!....that is the biggest drawback as far as I'm concerned. Also, as I recall you can't used edge on dice rolls made with skill wires. If players seem to want to abuse them anyway, you could also make them buy auto successes (4 dice=1 automatic success) with anything test involving the skillwires.

Malachi
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Jan 8 2009, 03:39 PM) *
A hacker cannot intrude on an implant with disabled wireless connections unless he actually cuts you up to access it physically, in which case you are fucked anyways.

Ok, you've got 8 skillsofts active and you want to swap in another 8. Where are all your skillsofts stored? Your Commlink. How does your Skillwire system take skillsofts "offline" and load up new ones? By connecting to your Commlink, as part of your PAN. What does your Commlink have? A wireless antenna! Sure your Skillwire system is not wireless enabled, it might be connected to your Commlink via skinlink or wires, but your Commlink is still wireless. If a Hacker subverts your Commlink, they have access to all of your 'ware.

This exactly why I made the clarification to my players that skillsofts are Commlink programs. They simply "transmit" movement information to your Skillwire system in order to manipulate your limbs etc. The Skillsoft itself, the source of the information, still resides on your Commlink. I then (logically IMO) extended all of the rules concerned other Commlink programs to skillsofts: System but equal or exceed the Skillsoft rating, every Skillsoft counts as a "running" program for Response decrease purposes, etc.
cryptoknight
QUOTE (HentaiZonga @ Jan 8 2009, 01:41 PM) *
You forgot to include the Wound Penalties.



Nope... no wound penalty to the dice pool.

They don't have an example of healing physical wounds, but stun has the same dice pool penalties... and here's the example of that.


Page 242 in BBB has.
QUOTE
Fatima, a mage, is jumped by Humanis goons
and badly beaten, sustaining 8 boxes of Stun damage
(ouch). She decides to rest for an hour at a nearby
friend’s telesma shop. Her player rolls 4 (Body) + 5
(Willpower), and gets three hits. Three boxes of Stun
damage are healed, leaving her with five yet to heal.
She’s not in the greatest shape, but she should be able to
stumble home to finish healing.



If you're referring to first aid on yourself, then you need the wound penalties... but not if
1. you're letting the medkit heal you on its own
2. somebody else is administering first aid (like a Technomancer who never gets into combat).


Under using First Aid...
QUOTE
(Characters using First
Aid on themselves must apply their wound modifiers to
the test.)
TeOdio
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jan 8 2009, 12:15 PM) *
You and others have suggested that a GM would be unjust in not allowing Pirated Software at chargen because of the traceability of legal materials. Nobody seems to be complaining about the flipside...the GM allowing a character to make it to game play without suffering the consequences of blatantly illegal behaviour during chargen (such as acquiring all those restricted and forbidden weapons etc.), and in good old Traveller fashion killing or jailing the PC during chargen.


cyber.gif
I wouldn't allow any player to purchase software @ pirated costs at chargen. I'm even rarely moved to allow second hand and "custom" equipment. For me, I see Gear as just stuff you start with. If a player wants to argue that they would never use "legit" software I'll buy the argument, but they still have pay for the gear they start with like everyone else. Then they can call it whatever they want. Once game play begins, they can go for broke. I don't usually throw around Monty Hall money so it is fun to sit back and watch them save up for that one more piece of software/gear/foci that will give them that edge.
But then again, my players readily agree I'm heartless.... hmm.
nuyen.gif nuyen.gif nuyen.gif
pbangarth
Edit: TeOdio beat me by, what, 5 seconds?

@Malachi :
The program swapping could be done by direct link methods which insulates the programs against hacking.

@all and sundry: By healing effects, I was mostly thinking of on-the-spot, during a run healing, such as in the spell. At home in the comfort of your own nurse .. I mean bed, yes it my not matter so much.

Look, I think we are approaching the cost at chargen the wrong way. The BPs available for purchase of gear don't necessarily represent actual money the character has before she starts running. 50 BP for gear therefore doesn't mean 250,000 nuyen in your pocket. How many people would become runners if they had that kind of money?

The BPs are an arbitrary representation of all kinds of pre-gaming life that added up to giving the character a bunch of gear at chargen. Inherited from daddy... stolen from the neighbour... mustered out from the military... and yes, maybe some of it bought at the neighbourhood Radio Shack. It is converted into nuyen to use the purchase scale already provided, probably at least in part to preclude having to develop a second scale for chargen.

So using the full price at chargen for software or armor or whatever is an arbitrary accounting system to provide a reasonable limit to the stuff you start with. That's all.

Peter
TeOdio
I obviously agree 100% with Peter.
pbangarth
TeOdio, is there an avatar for you elsewhere, TeAmo? smile.gif

Peter
Malachi
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jan 8 2009, 04:59 PM) *
@Malachi : The program swapping could be done by direct link methods which insulates the programs against hacking.

Direct link to what? To completely the programs you'd need to put them on a Commlink with wireless disabled, then fiber-linked to a datajack. Now there are some other issues to work out like: how exactly do you activate that program to tell to swap out your skillsofts? If you're doing it "manually" via pushing buttons then that means an extra action (Complex) before the Skillsoft swap occurs. If you have the off-line 'link plugged in via cable to a datajack you could do it via mental commands. However, you have to make sure to specify that that datajack also has its wireless disabled (it's on by default) and that you are not using that datajack to connect to any wireless-enabled device. If you, say, also use that datajack to process mental commands to your other Commlink which is Wireless enabled, than a Hacker could "node hop" from the Wireless Commlink, through the datajack, to the off-line link. In order to be completely safe you need to make sure the entire "circuit" of Skillwire, datajack, and Commlink are completely cut off from anything else that is Wireless.
TeOdio
There was, but she stuck a knife in my back.
Now that's AMOR!
Cain
QUOTE
Ok, you've got 8 skillsofts active and you want to swap in another 8. Where are all your skillsofts stored? Your Commlink.

Wrong. You store all of them on your skillwires. Skillwires have unlimited memory storage too; they can hold as many activesotfs as you want. You just can only have Rating x 2 active at any given moment.

And your skillwires need never be exposed to the Matrix, there's probably a dozen ways around it. You just shut off the wireless, but keep a copy of your skillsofts on your commlink. When those are updated, you turn the wirelss back on, and patch all your softs.
Dr Funfrock
And thus I am reminded of Batman vs Prometheus.

"I hacked your skills software. You have now the physical coordination and agility of Professor Stephen Hawkings."
"That's cheating."
"Not cheating. Winning."
Malachi
QUOTE (Cain @ Jan 8 2009, 05:50 PM) *
Wrong. You store all of them on your skillwires. Skillwires have unlimited memory storage too; they can hold as many activesotfs as you want. You just can only have Rating x 2 active at any given moment.

And your skillwires need never be exposed to the Matrix, there's probably a dozen ways around it. You just shut off the wireless, but keep a copy of your skillsofts on your commlink. When those are updated, you turn the wirelss back on, and patch all your softs.

That's another reason why I have houseruled that Skillsofts must be run on your Commlink like any other "program." They simply "transmit" information to your Skillwires. It's a subtle difference but I think it helps tip things not so grossly in favor or Skillsofts.
Stahlseele
for even more saftey, patch all of the internal stuff only to one datajack and connect the needed comlink via cable if needed be.
just remember to switch off wireless before connecting to jack . .
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Malachi @ Jan 8 2009, 02:52 PM) *
Ok, you've got 8 skillsofts active and you want to swap in another 8. Where are all your skillsofts stored? Your Commlink. How does your Skillwire system take skillsofts "offline" and load up new ones? By connecting to your Commlink, as part of your PAN. What does your Commlink have? A wireless antenna! Sure your Skillwire system is not wireless enabled, it might be connected to your Commlink via skinlink or wires, but your Commlink is still wireless. If a Hacker subverts your Commlink, they have access to all of your 'ware.


OK, you want to store a butt tonne of Softs so you don't have to access the Matrix during a run. Use a datachip:

QUOTE
Can hold hundreds of gigapulses of data in a small finger-sized chip, accessible by any electronic device.


Carry 4 of them and you're good to go. Total cost for carrying those 4 chips... 4 nuyen.gif
Wasabi
QUOTE
Skillsofts are Commlink programs and subject to all of the same rules as any of the Common or Hacking programs. You must have a System rating equal to or exceeding the rating of the Skillsoft you are running. Skillsofts that are running count as a running program on your Commlink and are subject to Response degradation rules. Shutting down a single skillsoft takes a Free action. Activating a single Skillsoft takes a Complex Action. The information from the Skillsoft is transmitted wirelessly to the Skillwire receiver unless the user has a Skinlink or specifically tells me they are running a fiberoptic cable to their datajack from their Commlink. As programs, Skillsofts are subject to all the vulnerabilities of other Commlink programs: they can be Crashed, Spoofed, or Corrupted ("For some reason, I can't fire a pistol anymore!")


Isn't this by the book... I thought only Virtual Shooter, Virtual Pets, and stuff like that were exempted from being limited by System. Since skillsofts (active or know) are not in the excluded-from-the-rule list they are INcluded in my mind. That doesnt mean you cant get a rating 4 cracked OS and rating 4 cracked Firewall and load them all on cheapo drop comms with no wireless but it does mean they, as programs, need a home.
Cain
QUOTE (Malachi @ Jan 8 2009, 02:27 PM) *
That's another reason why I have houseruled that Skillsofts must be run on your Commlink like any other "program." They simply "transmit" information to your Skillwires. It's a subtle difference but I think it helps tip things not so grossly in favor or Skillsofts.

Do you require IC programs to only be run on a commlink?

Of course not, the books clearly explain that you can run programs on anything with a Device rating or a set of Matrix stats. So, if you're not allowing people to tun programs on things other than your commlink, you've completely changed the way Matrix security works.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 8 2009, 11:29 PM) *
for even more saftey, patch all of the internal stuff only to one datajack and connect the needed comlink via cable if needed be.

In SR4, 'safety' means not haveing a data jack.

At all.
Stahlseele
an old datajack?
one of those pre wireless everything ones?
you don't even need an active link O.o
just download soft on comlink, from there onto chip, take out of comlink, insert into jack, load skills into wire-cache, format chip.
rinse and repeat ad nauseum? o.O
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jan 8 2009, 06:48 PM) *
In SR4, 'safety' means not haveing a data jack.

At all.


If you have a datajack with wireless removed completely then you're good to go. It's only when you have a datajack with wireless that you might run into problems.

I know that my cybered mage with a datajack in his cyber hand had the wireless completely removed from the jack... and then slaved to his commlink (running rating 6 firewall and rating 6 encrypt)
Malachi
QUOTE (Cain @ Jan 8 2009, 07:11 PM) *
Do you require IC programs to only be run on a commlink?

Of course not, the books clearly explain that you can run programs on anything with a Device rating or a set of Matrix stats. So, if you're not allowing people to tun programs on things other than your commlink, you've completely changed the way Matrix security works.

Actually Unwired changed it and put it in the purview of the GM.
QUOTE (Unwired pg. 48)
Peripherals use the
same rules as standard
nodes (see Devices and
Software Ratings, p. 206,
SR4), with some restrictions.
They are only able to
run a single persona and can
only run programs they are
designed to use.


Now, of course, it is up to the GM to determine if a Peripheral node (such as a Skillwire system) has an OS that is "designed" to run Agent programs. In my case I have ruled that the Skillwire system itself doesn't "run" the Skillsoft, but that's definitely my rule.
Cain
QUOTE (Malachi @ Jan 8 2009, 06:40 PM) *
Actually Unwired changed it and put it in the purview of the GM.

Now, of course, it is up to the GM to determine if a Peripheral node (such as a Skillwire system) has an OS that is "designed" to run Agent programs. In my case I have ruled that the Skillwire system itself doesn't "run" the Skillsoft, but that's definitely my rule.

Even then, some things-- like skillwires-- are clearly more complex than the RFID tags in your underpants. IC/Agents being about as complex a program as you can get, it seems fair to say that you can run them on your cyberware. In fact, it's a perfectly common trick. If you start slapping that down, you're seriously altering the way matrix security works.
pbangarth
QUOTE (Malachi @ Jan 8 2009, 07:40 PM) *
Now, of course, it is up to the GM to determine if a Peripheral node (such as a Skillwire system) has an OS that is "designed" to run Agent programs. In my case I have ruled that the Skillwire system itself doesn't "run" the Skillsoft, but that's definitely my rule.


Malachi, your quote from Unwired says :

"Peripherals use the
same rules as standard
nodes (see Devices and
Software Ratings, p. 206,
SR4), with some restrictions.
They are only able to
run a single persona and can
only run programs they are
designed to use."

Yet you say "the Skillwire system itself doesn't "run" the Skillsoft". Well what is a skillwire system designed to run if not skillsofts?

Peter
wind_in_the_stones
Every few years, someone in my group runs skillwires. I have them on my current character, but in twenty years, this is the first time I've ever had them. We've only played once, so I have no idea how they're going to work, but I've never heard anyone say anything like, "OMG, you've got to get skillwires."

I think what it comes down to is that I don't need a skillchip for anything in the arena I'm good with, and I don't care about anything else. In other words, I'm good with a gun or two, why do I need to be good with any other guns? And someone else can bust that maglock. I'm not going to spend the essence on the off-chance our intrusion specialist is off that night. On the other hand, I can see needing it for a small group. If your team only has three members, it's probably a good buy. But your GM should never offer you a job you can't handle (except as a plot point), so having the skillz just increases your options.

Someone said that he bans skillwires because everybody gets them. What about anything that grants you IPs? My current group consists of eight players, and only one doesn't have initiative enhancements (the face). Should we think about banning (or nerfing) them?

What I think is more interesting is that the ones who get skillwires are the magically active. Usually it's the mage who spent all his build points on magic, and didn't have any left for skills. To me, that's a little unrealistic. I did it myself, though. I'm playing a ghoul adept in a 360 BP campaign. I had to buy cyber eyes, and only had about 50 points to spend on skills, so I went ahead and spent some further essence on the wires.

That pirated software thing is kinda weird. Why don't you just nerf that, instead of saying skillwires are broken? You're the GM, so you're the one setting consequences for have "traceable" programs. Why should or shouldn't any gear or ware be a liability? The rigger can just file the serial numbers off his Steel Lynx, right? *eyeroll*
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Malachi @ Jan 8 2009, 09:40 PM) *
Now, of course, it is up to the GM to determine if a Peripheral node (such as a Skillwire system) has an OS that is "designed" to run Agent programs. In my case I have ruled that the Skillwire system itself doesn't "run" the Skillsoft, but that's definitely my rule.


Uh Malachi, have you not read the Cluster rules (pg 55) in Unwired? If you cluster together your cyberware then you can have a node that's pretty damn good.

QUOTE
Once clustered, the group of nodes is treated as a single node with effective Firewall and System ratings equal to the lowest respective ratings of the nodes. The cluster’s Response is equal to the average of the node’s Response ratings.


This can be pretty damn nice for running all those programs that you don't want cluttering up your 'Link. sensor software, knowsofts, tacnet, data and map softs, Skillsofts... the list is pretty long.
Malachi
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jan 9 2009, 12:35 AM) *
Yet you say "the Skillwire system itself doesn't "run" the Skillsoft". Well what is a skillwire system designed to run if not skillsofts?

It's a house-rule of mine. I say the Skillsoft runs on the Commlink and transmits information to the Skillwire system.

QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Jan 9 2009, 01:11 AM) *
Uh Malachi, have you not read the Cluster rules (pg 55) in Unwired? If you cluster together your cyberware then you can have a node that's pretty damn good.

This can be pretty damn nice for running all those programs that you don't want cluttering up your 'Link. sensor software, knowsofts, tacnet, data and map softs, Skillsofts... the list is pretty long.

Sure I've read the clustering rules. But if the GM rules that the clustered nodes can't run the software you want to run, then it won't run regardless of how many you cluster together. If a Toaster can't run an Agent program, 500 Toasters still can't run an Agent program. Unwired leaves the decision with the GM: is the device "Peripheral" or "Standard" and if "Peripheral" can it run the software you want it to run? Those are the GM's decisions.
Cain
That leads to an interesting question. Have they ever come up with rules for using more than one commlink at a time?
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Cain @ Jan 9 2009, 01:18 AM) *
That leads to an interesting question. Have they ever come up with rules for using more than one commlink at a time?


Just slave the other commlinks to the master 'Link and go from there. I had a character concept called "Nexi-Man" with two Raptor cyberlegs and a Commlink built into each one of them. He also had a commlink in his head. The two in the legs were slaved to the one in his head.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Malachi @ Jan 9 2009, 12:41 AM) *
Sure I've read the clustering rules. But if the GM rules that the clustered nodes can't run the software you want to run, then it won't run regardless of how many you cluster together. If a Toaster can't run an Agent program, 500 Toasters still can't run an Agent program. Unwired leaves the decision with the GM: is the device "Peripheral" or "Standard" and if "Peripheral" can it run the software you want it to run? Those are the GM's decisions.


Actually Malachi, on page 48 just before the heading "Standard Node" it says this about Peripheral nodes:

QUOTE
Peripheral nodes can only run one persona at a time, they are not designed for multiple users. For this reason, they only have admin accounts, but these accounts do not receive the +6 threshold modiier for hacking (treat them as standard accounts). They can, however, be clustered with other minor nodes, acting in concert as a single super-node (see Clusters, p. 55).


What is a "super-node"? I'm thinking that it's a commlink or a Nexi. So by the text, it seems that if I cluster together my cyberware then I can have a node capable of running commlink programs. Why do it otherwise?
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Jan 9 2009, 02:07 AM) *
If you have a datajack with wireless removed[...]

...then by RAW, it is still an enforcable, direct entry point for any of your cyber implants and of course, your brain as soon as someone plugs in - or hacks the things you plugged in.

Just don't do it.
Mäx
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jan 9 2009, 05:21 PM) *
as soon as someone plugs in

That's probaply the least of you problems at that point.
Stahlseele
if someone can do that, he can just as well ram a knife into you.
Rotbart van Dainig
No, it adds to those problems by making them quite faster and much more concealable - in short, easier.
Warlordtheft
Just thinking too much, but in the hacking rules one of the alternatives is to have the program rating limit the number of successes that a character can get (and using hacking/cybercombat/etc/etc plus logic for most tests). If you applied a rule limiting the number of successes (not net) to the rating of the skillwire then it would also work. So a rating 4 pistols skillwire could only ever get you four successes.
Malachi
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Jan 9 2009, 03:18 AM) *
What is a "super-node"? I'm thinking that it's a commlink or a Nexi. So by the text, it seems that if I cluster together my cyberware then I can have a node capable of running commlink programs. Why do it otherwise?

Yeah, "super-node" is another one of those terms that gets thrown out in SR books that has a nebulous definition. I suppose by Clustering those "Peripheral" nodes together they can run programs that they can run much more efficiently. It's still up to the GM what they can run, however.

I believe the whole point of designating things as "Peripheral" nodes was to attempt to hinder the "Agent Smith" and "hack-a-stack" "problems" with the Matrix. If all Peripheral nodes can run Agents, or even a small cluster of Peripheral nodes, then the "problem" comes back. I put "problem" in quotes because I think its debatable whether it deserves that label or not... but that's not for this thread.
Malachi
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Jan 9 2009, 12:23 PM) *
Just thinking too much, but in the hacking rules one of the alternatives is to have the program rating limit the number of successes that a character can get (and using hacking/cybercombat/etc/etc plus logic for most tests). If you applied a rule limiting the number of successes (not net) to the rating of the skillwire then it would also work. So a rating 4 pistols skillwire could only ever get you four successes.

Hey, I like this idea. I think the successes should be limited to the rating of the Skillsoft itself. That makes a lot of sense to me.
Dr Funfrock
That is a pretty neat little rule. At the moment I'm happy with Skillwires as they are, but if I actually found that they were being abused, that's the fix I would use (especially as I'm fond of that house rule for programs and hacking).

In particular it kiboshes the whole "stupidly high stat + rating 1 skillsoft" deal that people were moaning about earlier, so if a player is using that particular abuse it's an obvious answer (not even sure if it is an abuse, but ymmv).
ahammer
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Jan 9 2009, 09:23 AM) *
Just thinking too much, but in the hacking rules one of the alternatives is to have the program rating limit the number of successes that a character can get (and using hacking/cybercombat/etc/etc plus logic for most tests). If you applied a rule limiting the number of successes (not net) to the rating of the skillwire then it would also work. So a rating 4 pistols skillwire could only ever get you four successes.


do you think it would underpower the skill wire to use this and also say a skill wire only adds 1/2 it ratting dice rounded up to the roll.


ie a rating 3 skillsoft would add 2 dice and be cap at 3 success
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