'Cyberware paid for with essence is part of the creature who paid the essence for it.'

Wreck Cyberware on the Sam. HE is my target. I can see HIM. HIS cyberware is damaged, whether I can see it inside him or not.

Demolish Cyberware affects any visible ware in the whole area, at one time, and any target with installed ware is subject to the effects of the spell as well.

He resists with Body AND the Cyberware has a Threshold (4) basic resistance (unless it's lacing, dermal plating, or other 'unsmart' 'wares) which makes it difficult to destroy... Unless it's a Force 8 Spell.

As a direct spell, anyone invisible or anyone behind full cover (who I cannot see) is unaffected by the spell. Were this an indirect spell the casting would incinerate any cyberware at all, even those inside crates and uninstalled or in invisible targets, rendering the whole area Cyber-Unsafe.

Don't these terms logically build on one another?

Nope. You need to visibly see the target that you are going to destroy to actually target it. There is a difference between direct and indirect spells. If you could throw "wreck cyber" as an indirect spell then yes you would destroy the invisible dudes cyber and all that cyber in the crate that you can't see. That being said it is not an indirect combat spell it is a direct one, which means if you can't see it you can't destroy it.

- For instance

3 guys have cyberware on them you can only see two of them and happen to notice that they both have cyberware that you can specifically target so you cast demolish cyberware. Now you will explode the cyberware that you can see and therefore target, but NOT the third guy (who is in the area of effect) because you can't see him or his cyberware and therefore can't wreck his ware.

Why wreck cyberware is annoying is because some people have ware that you can't just see, or maybe you can see it but you have yet to notice that it is cyberware (obvious cyber vs non obvious cyber.) His hand looks real enough and if you think it is real and cast wreck cyberware you "technically" can't see the cyberware for what it is so you shouldn't be able to destroy it. It would be like a wreck bioware spell. I mean how the hell can you tell? How with normal vision mags? Maybe a superthyriod gland.... maybe and even then that is some ultra sketch right there.

Also just to add one final point the cyberware might be a part of the person because they paid essence for the piece of ware, but if a spell specifically targets something on a person then that specific object must be seen (for a direct spell.) It does not matter if it is a gun, a wall, a vehicle, or a piece of cyberware you have to see the specific object in question to target it for any direct spell.

well . . can you do the wreck cyberware nonsense after you have done a successfull astral reading?
go dual natured, look at them real hard, see the black spots and shoot them? same for bioware?
it IS a Mana-Spell right? so you can shoot them when you are dual-natured . .

Jeez. Why not just manabolt them?

'cause maybe you don't wanna kill them for example?
seriously, that was kinda like saying:"why use spells when you can have guns and grenades?"

Stunbolt then.

The fact remains that it is easier to just target an individual, and drop them straight out, than it will be to somehow target their 'ware and reduce their combat effectiveness.

Depending on what 'ware you actually destroy, you could easily kill them anyway (synthcardium, contained air supply etc.)

Also you cannot cast a spell at someone's aura and effect them. However counter-intuitive you might think it is, spells cast on the astral do not affect the physical. Since you can only see their 'ware by assensing them, you cannot see the 'ware in the physical, and cannot target it on the physical.

Folk can play this way if they like, but they cannot use it as evidence that the magic system is broken or subject to abuse. There are plenty of other, more valid, examples of how magic is overpowered or can be abused.

if you're dual-natured, you can sling mana spells right?
those wreck things are mana-spells right?
so you can while astrally percieving and not projecting cast those spells right?
or am i misunderstanding something here?

You are only seeing the cyberware via astral perception, which means that if you target it, you are targetting its astral shadow - you still can't SEE the cyberware on the physical plane which, mind you, is the plane upon which you hope to produce an effect.

Otherwise mages wouldn't need thermo or nightvision - they'd just go astral to see you hiding in the dark and blow the crap out of you with minimal to no negative modifiers.

Ah but cyberware is tricky Stahlseele. You are actually reading the aura to find out they have cyberware. It is the aura that tells you it is there as it is a part of them not that you individually pick a part of them and know exactly where it is. Astral targeting is more like targeting someones aura as a whole not individual parts of them.

So my answer to that is I have no clue, because of how the astral works.

which is, as far as i understood, exactly the way it does actually work O.o
the only problem they have is the -2 dice pool mod/+2TN for doing anything in Meat-Space while looking into the Astral o.O

my brain hurts now ._.
so if i can see the cyber on the meat-polane, i can target it, even though it is a part of the owners aura . . at least, with the area-effect version right? @.@
but if i can actually see the cyber, or it's shadow, on the astral, while being dual-natured, it does NOT work anymore? x.x

To be honest, I'd be on the fence about allowing that spell into a game. I completely understand your logic on it, but I never really liked mana sub-targetting parts of people (it's like creating a "Head Explode" spell; it targets the individual as a whole but only effects his head? Doesn't seem to gel in my head).

For your other issue, the -2 modifier you're talking about is noted for the jumbling and confusing nature of trying to do something physical while looking via the astral. For spellcasting, you have to be able to see the target of the spell on the same plane as you hope to effect them. Seeing a mundane's aura does nothing to help spellcasting in complete darkness because you can't see them whatsoever in the meat. You'll know WHERE they are (and as a GM, I might provide some sort of bonus for that), but in order to form the link to harm them/affect them with your magic, you need to have LOS on their physical body. The better the view, the easier it is to complete the link to them and thus the better your ability to affect them (as noted - partial cover impedes spellcasting attempts for DC spells).

When a mage physically present looks on the astral doesn't he see both planes at the same time? Like a dual natured critter always does?

The way I read the rules is that you as a mage sees on astral and can flip over with a simple action to see on the physical... unless possessed by a spirit. Mages, when they are not possessed by a spirit, when they flip on their astral sight can be targeted by someone on the astral however they don't see in both at the same time. It is like a mage closing their eyes and then opens their third eye. Remember sometimes being duel natured does not mean you can see on both realms. Take a ghoul. They are duel natured, BUT they can only see on the astral so can be targeted by both astral and physical means. From reading the rules a mage kind of works like that when they flip on astral sight.

I agree that targeting part of something doesn't seem to be possible with direct combat spells. The book describes the spell as doing damage to the target from inside. I'd probably be fine with such a spell targeting things that can be removed from the whole without destroying the item. For example, I'd allow someone to target the tire of a car, but not someone's hand. This is a pretty flexible rule on my part and if the gaming group I was with needed a "bright-line" rule I'd probably be inclined to stick to whole objects.

With that said I'd really like a quote from the book that says "Cyberware paid for with essence is part of the creature who paid the essence for it." Don't get me wrong, I believe this to be true, and at least implied within the rules. But I can't find where it is actually stated. I'd be happy with this meaning that the cyberware is now no longer a distinct object from the living target for the purposes of a direct combat spell. This flows better with the existing rules better than the alternatives where you need to figure out how much structure the cyberware has and decide exactly what the effect of breaking specific pieces of cyberware has on the living target.

As for Line of Sight with astral perception, the book does not require you to be able to see the target on the same place as you want to effect them. You just need to be on the same plane.



Note that you can't attack an aura, but you can attack the person whom the aura belongs to. Also, under the astral perception its not clear how an aura is "perceived" but I'd say that the cyberware that is part of a person do not actually show up as simple holes in their aura. I'd suggest that an aura is more than just a metahuman glowing construct in the astral world in the same place that this person happens to be standing. Perhaps it is that, but it is also something more. Those with the knowledge of how aura's change with body modifications can recognize the tell-tale signs within the aura of another living being (hence a test to recognize 'ware). But those less trained in Assensing would have difficulties in noticing even a cyberarm (especially if of a higher than average grade.) So no, I do not believe you get Line of Sight on items within the living being that you happen to be looking at with astral sight.

Well astral forms are tricky. You have to be duel natured or an astral form to be targeted on the astral. Hence it is why mages can't just sit back and blast mundanes on the astral plane and there is nothing they can do about it. Astral forms are more like shadows of the person. You can try and wail on a shadow as much as you want, but it is not going to help you all that much. Mages have three forms.

- The physical where they still have an astral shadow, but can't be targeted.
- Astral sight where they can target and look on the astral, and can be hit on both realms, however a mage can sustain astral sight forever.
- Astral projection where they leave their body and are just an astral form. A mage cannot do this forever and if they lose their body or it dies the mage dies.

If you can flip on astral sight and target off of someones shadow I don't think it really counts, and stun bolt is just so much better. Personally if you use wreck cyberware I think you would end up most likely killing the person anyways. Imagine some very fine bits of metal just suddenly break apart and swim around in someones blood stream.... O.o