If you don't use Edges & Flaws, then the appropriate skill according to SR3 is Off-Hand Weapons. I don't recall off-hand whether you need to purchase the skill for each individual weapon type, or if it is actually a blanket skill covering them all.

Stop goading me. I like this board and want to stay. You insult me by thinking that I'm breaking into a corp with mil armor. I have a body of 3. I'm saving that for any overt confrontations where i now heavy drek will be flying. If you have a problem call my fragging GM omae.

The evaluation is a completely accurate one: mil-spec armor is heavy, cumbersome and amazingly expensive.

If you're not a front-line grunt or close-combat specialist, you're not going to need top of the line, cutting edge gear for a specialty that isn't yours.

Form-fitting armor or an armor jacket is more than enough, considering the amount of gear you'll be humping to support your primary specialty.

-Siege

Please don't think I'm thying to goad, or even insult you. I am merely participating in a discussion.

@ Solstice:

I don't know if anyone said this yet but...welcome aboard!

*climbs up on high horse*

Ah-hem, where to begin? Well, most of the people around here really know thier stuff. You asked for help. They obliged. Just cause they said things you didn't want to hear doesn't make the advice bad. And I'll have to recheck but I don't think any one actually insulted you, just your idea. Its hard to separate the two, sometimes. Drek, I'm still learning.

I do like the way you stayed in SR vernactular when you slung all the "frag"s around!!

*climbs down from horse*

I don't mean to sound any better than you so please don't take it that way. I'm still quite a Newb to these parts myself.

I think a lot is lost in translation here, moreover, there's a tendency to misrepresent your true thoughts by accident do to the vaguaries of text trasnmission w/o the use of facial expressions, inflection of voice, tonal differences, etc...

Back to topic: I think one of the Golden Rules around here is "If it works for you and your game, go with it." So if your GM threw you in w/ more experienced players its only natural for you to want to compete at that level. Everyone plays the game differently. Have fun!

ps. and use LOTS of smileys!!

Solstice, I have a couple of questions for you.

#1. Are you playing with the SR2 or SR3 rules?

#2. Are you planning on firing both of those supermachs at the same time? (i.e. SMG's Akimbo)

#3. Do the other players in your group have and regularly wear milspec or security armor?

If you could answer these questions I could probably help clear up some of the confusion.

And hey, welcome to the boards. Watch your back, shoot straight, conserve ammo, and never ever make a deal with Polaris ... er, I mean a Dragon

We are using SR3

No one has mil spec body armor but they did mention it might be a good idea. I know enough to know that if I get shot...which I feel is inevitable, DocWagon will earn their on me. I totally had no clue about the availability rating, but it makes sense. The GM is really good but they seem rusty as they haven't played in a couple of years. I wish they would start with new chars but that does not seem to happen.

Yes I want to use the SMGs akimbo. Cheesy char concept yes but that is me. I want to be heavy on the tech but still able to hold my own in a fight with style of course (style saves lives?).


This is really cool board and I thank you for your help. I am edgy sometimes as you can see. I just don't want to be portrayed as a total noob even though I am one in the Shadows but not in RPGs. I've read alot of the paperbacks and believe it or not I have more RPG background and flavor than the other guys in my group who have been running for years.

Check the rules on covering fire. That and walking fire give full auto some degree of usefulness.

For a low body character that might accidently get caught in a bad firefight, then hardened armor is sweetness as you can likely won't even have to dodge or resist most shots. However, weight! Depending on how strict your GM is on weight allowances, this could be critical. For a str 3 character, you can carry only 15 kilos of gear without encumbrance. I'm lacking my CC right now, but I believe that mil armor will be weighing >15 kilos, at the very least sucking up your payload, but alos putting you into encumbrance. Where do you put the guns, ammo and electronic tool kit? (Probably another 10+ kilos of gear at the least.)

Most other objections to the milspec armor are valid, but in a restricted sense. There are many types of games in the shadowrun universe. For the "stereotypical" run, milspec is bad news to have for the reasons listed. On the other hand, I'm currently in a small ShadowRun campaign in a German civil war where milspec armor would be an unabashed boon (and our characters are all wearing security armor as it stands.) If there are times in your campaign where the best plan is to kick in the front door and walk in with a heavy machine gun, then so be it. However, I would still advise that in those situations that you pick the lock and then quickly find a deep hole to cower in while the aforementioned heavy-machine-gun-toting-troll/bipedal-light-tank tells some knock-knock jokes that end in "Resist 13D."

As for cyberware, I'd advise cyber eye replacements with an image link, low-light, eye-lights, retinal clock, microscopic vision (for lock pickery) and electronic mag 3. A smartlink II system w/ rangefinder is always goodness for shooting people well (don't need the datalink component since the image link has it covered). Cyberears with select sound filters 5 (for hearing what you want to hear), dampening (when near HMGTT/BLT fellow), high-freq, spatial recognizer, and amplification. Balance augmenter, as well so you can hide in the rafters. Orientation system (maybe with an internal GPS as well) to help you not get lost in a big building. A datajack is always handy, and I would advise getting a pocket computer tied to it so you can keep pertinent intelligence at your "fingertips" in a tight situation.

Maybe specialize negotiations in con or fast-talk to help you slip through trouble. Assuming that's its primary use for your character.

Also, the Barret 121 is a highly specialized rifle only useful in a very dedicated sniper role. Being really long, heavy and cumbersome. Always handy to have in the closet, but I might also advise a Remington 950 with a silencer for more routine support roles. It's much more versatile, I'd say.

Just some thoughts, but itsa lookin' good, methinks.

Those numbers should be 8, 13, 18, and 25, for an average of less than one success per attempt on all of them (remember, smartlinks don't work dual-mode).

~J

I told you guys exactly what was up with the SuperMachs. Someone pull out the CC plz and verify.

I will try again.

SuperMachs: SA/BF/FA 3 points of integral recoil compensation, Damage: 6L/12S with 6 round burst

So the first 3 shots are compensated for. With both weapons.

Which means with your next burst, both guns are going to be at +6 TN because the recoil from both guns transfers to each other.

hmm ok so each weapon will be +3 on a 6 round burst.

but +0 on a 3 round burst.

so on a three round burst in the first action you would be -2 on your main hand and -1 on your off hand right

Because you would be 0 on main hand

+1 on off hand

No... If you fire two guns at once, the recoil from one also goes to the other. So main hand will have +6 because of its uncompensated three and the off-hands uncompensated three, and vice versa.

And it has a six-round burst, which means you cannot fire three-round bursts from it. It's just not designed to do that. Thus only half of your recoil is compensated for as written. I'll double-check the stats when I get home, but from what you're saying you still have quite a bit of recoil stacking up there.

~J

Oh yeah. I kind forgot that. Woops.

Simple Action 1: Two BFs at +6 TN each (plus second gun mod, movement/cover/visibility mod). So something ridiculous.
Simple Action 2: Two BFs at +18 TN each (and the same other mods as last time).

Yeah. If you get a success with 10 dice (Minimum TN 22 on SA2), then you've got some seriously lucky dice.

Three round bursts aren't an option with the Supermachs. Regular Submachineguns/Assault Rifles/Light Machine Guns will fire 3 round bursts but in Cannon Companion (and before that Field of Fire) they introduced the "Super" machineguns or sized down miniguns. Because of the weapon design when you fire a burst it's automatically 6 rounds the option of firing only three rounds in a burst simply isn't there.

S'ok if you're talking three points of integral recoil compensation on each weapon then your target numbers when dual wielding will be as follows (again assuming burst fire, one target and short range):

1st Burst Primary Hand: TN 7
1st Burst Off Hand: TN 11
2nd Burst Primary Hand: TN 17
2nd Burst Off Hand: TN 23

[Edit] Hmm Tanka may be right there. Because you're not technically firing one burst then the other but instead both weapons at the same time it will only have the one set of recoil modifiers per simple action. Amended target numbers are as follows (same conditions as above):

1st Burst Primary Hand: TN 10
1st Burst Off Hand: TN 11
2nd Burst Primary Hand: TN 22
2nd Burst Off Hand: TN 23

[Edit - Continued] Looking at the new numbers you're even less likely to hit anything than I previously thought. [End Edit]

Conversely if you picked up two regular SMGs and put 6 points of recoil compensation on each your target numbers would read as follows (again assuming burst fire, one target and short range):

1st Burst Primary Hand: TN 4
1st Burst Off Hand: TN 5
2nd Burst Primary Hand: TN 4
2nd Burst Off Hand: TN 5

All your recoil is compensated for (6 points primary, 6 points secondary) so you're never seeing higher target numbers from that. You're hitting for 10S damage (12S if you throw in EXEX Ammo) assuming your base weapon damage is 7M (which is pretty common for a SMG). And on top of all that at the end of the day it cost you half as much in ammunition when compared to the Supermachs to do roughly the same thing with a much better chance of hitting.

No offence to the designers who thought up the Supermach/HVAR/HVLMG weapon series but unless it's on a tripod, gyromount or vehicle mount they're damn near useless. Generally you can get something that will be more effective when fielded for a heck of a lot lower cost. In fact the only conceivable explanation I could ever think up for those were that they were designed to be sold to corp armies where all the gear was bought by executives who had never fought a battle in their lives.

Sorry in case it wasn't self evident by this point I'm not a fan of that particular series of weapons.

Honestly, I know they look great and on paper the idea of throwing around 6 round bursts sounds damn impressive, once you look at the actual numbers they simply don't work.

Regards,

TBO

TBO: I'm pretty sure uncompensated recoil from one applies to the other, meaning you've got another several TN mods to throw in there.

On the other hand, firing these babies on full-auto using the cover fire rules will let you either suck up the oppositions combat pool, or inflict a light wound, giving them some target modifiers. All-in-all, not bad for a support character. I wouldn't recommend using them any other way really. Also, the suggestion about getting a hunting rifle for a sniper rifle is definitely a good idea. The hunting rifle is cheap, portable, and disposable. The barret is over 6 feet long, very expensive, and unless the opposition is inside of a vehicle or mil-spec armor, a whole lot of overkill. I recommend the acutal sniper rifles in the game. You can disassemble them to fit into a breifcase

But hey, those are just some suggestions.

Hmm ok I'm convinced of that now. Guess I better go buy some NORMAL Ingrams.

HV fires 15 rounds in FA, IIRC.

18, I thought it was. 15 is Miniguns.
I may be wrong, though.

~J