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BlackSmith
So character with iniative over 40 can fire assult rifle four times, thus spreding more than 72 rounds around, maybe 36 times more than the dude next to him having pointy hat.

our team talked about this after their characters where having (again) minimum iniative 30 and thinked that there must be something wrong the way we play this game.
isint just one complex or two standars per combat turns, not per pass, as it results high iniative charcters always out performe low iniative characters?

or how should GM handle player(s) with dicote no-dachis that make 15S damage, iniatives around ~35 and HV guns?

best of all, their all new characters.
Lilt
If they are all new characters then just send characters with the same level of abilities back at them, or send characters at them that they will probably be weaker against.
Rev
Be sure to enforce the recoil modifiers.

Give them some jobs where they have to be quiet or they won't be paid.

If they start a war someplace have helicopters and armored vehicles show up eventually.
RedmondLarry
You are absolutely right that characters can take many actions if they achieve a high initiative. That's exactly what happens.

Initiative 41 gives 5 actions, not 4. Each can be composed of one Complex Action or two Simple Actions.

Remember that dice Pools are limited and do not refresh till the next Initiative roll. Its easy to use up all your Combat Pool after one or two actions, and have nothing left for defense for the rest of the Combat Turn.

Also, movement is spread out over the initiative passes. So with 5 passes, characters only take one-fifth of their movement per pass. Characters who get no action on a pass may still take their movement at the end of the pass.

It is rare for a bunch of new characters to all be going at 30+. Almost all techniques that add initiative dice are incompatible with the other techniques that add initiative dice. Enforce Essence and Bioware limits.

The highly-cybered characters typically have penalties in social situations, so a team of all speed demons will often have troubles with parts of a run.

Make the players track ammo usage. Clips do become empty.

Recoil modifiers are no worse for high-initiative characters, as recoil is calculated for each phase separately. But yes, recoil provides a lot of trouble for the HV weapons.
Fortune
Be sure to use Target Number modifiers of all types. Vision, Cover, Movement, Recoil, Wounds, etc all can have a major impact on characters' effectiveness in combat.
kevyn668
Spirits. Lots of Spirits. smile.gif
Glyph
High initiative has really been neutered, um, I mean balanced, in Third Edition. Remember, they get only one action before everyone else gets an action, rather than taking all of their actions at the start of the turn. And Shadowrun is a deadly game. It's not like D&D where you can wade through orks. If you shoot 5 out of 15 security guards, the remaining 10 can often turn you into swiss cheese with their counterattack.

So don't throw similarly elite characters at them all the time. You can challenge them simply by having greater numbers of the baddies - and have them use elementary tactics, like using cover and spreading out. Between cover and visibility modifiers, as well as recoil, HV weapons won't be that effective. And melee is a dice contest, so the damage code only matters if you can hit someone with it. Remember that it is entirely possible to attack someone and wind up taking damage.
kevyn668
Ya know, thats a good point, Glyph. The group I GM for quickly learned that 5 to 3 odds is not very good...
toturi
QUOTE (kevyn668)
Ya know, thats a good point, Glyph. The group I GM for quickly learned that 5 to 3 odds is not very good...

Not true. It all depands on how you make the NPCs react. For example, if the PCs act before the NPCs and take out half of their number, I do not think that the NPCs will put up stiff resistance if they are not trained or professional rated. In fact, unless they have someone with small unit tactics and professional, I'll say the best they'll do is what the terrified guard in the Agent building in the Matrix did, call for backup.
DV8
I agree with Toturi, when I was young GM...*cue voilins*...I used to have all NPCs fight to the death, which was not only irrealistic, but also foolish. A lot of PCs will disregard an NPC that's crawling on the floor, bleeding, looking for his arm that was just chopped off by an precise swipe with a dikoted katana. However, when the wounds aren't that severe, and there are multiple more targets all fresh and ready to kick the shit out of the PC, then that wounded NPC might still be a threat.
Austere Emancipator
Initiative 41+ with Move-By-Wire-4, and you've got 7 actions.

The rate of fire shouldn't be a problem. At 5 actions per CT, going Full Automatic on every action, you still can't achieve more than a mediocre 1,000rpm cyclic RoF. M-B-W-4 might take it a bit far, with a 1,400rpm cylic RoF, but such a guy can do other completely insane stuff as well.

An enemy team with Rigger and Mage (with elementals or spirits) backup that outnumbers the PC team, acts professionally and has bot superior intel and decent gear can prove quite dangerous even against Init 30+ characters.
Wireknight
Drones are really a viable option if you want to play up the (relative) rarity of magic. While a character with an incredibly high initiative might be capable of out-reacting a combat drone or three, one with decent armor will be tremendously difficult to destroy, and likely equipped with a recoil-compensated weapon that'll turn even the most heavily armored cyborg into swiss cheese.

Make it a robot, give it autosofts, combat-linked Interpretation(I think that's the R3 name for Learning Pool) Pool, and the highest initiative possible, and a single drone could probably match, if not defeat, a character capable of pulling regular 40's on their initiative roll. Vehicle damage reduction and armor rules, 8 or 10 effective Reaction, 4d6 Initiative, and skill between 8 and 10 with their primary weapon, and a security or assassination robot can wipe the floor with pretty much any mundane PC. It's just hard to carry weapons that can harm a drone with, say, 6 points of armor.

Of course, if you hand out AV ammo, any decent marksman can pretty much walk all over a drone.
BumsofTacoma
My only question is, how did starting characters get a reaction of 30+?

Look I know it is possible, but man, unless you like power gaming, (in this case it sounds like you dont)

LIMIT LIMIT LIMIT, availabilty ratings are there for a reason.

Oh and MbW 4? what is that essence cost 7-8? and availibilty 30+ if you buy it in a version you can use without becoming a cyberzombie. Bah the cost alone errrrr!!!
Bogles the mind don't it biggrin.gif

Anyway. All is fair in cyberware, if the compatibility fits you must .......I wont finish that never mind.

Basically, check your players on availabilty, essence cost, compatibilty of cyber/bio/adept powers etc.

If its all legal, ask em to tone it down a bit, if they wont. throw the same at them. People also create reputations as they go along. Npc's get wind that these guys were hired (or anyone was hired for that matter) they are going to send out the big guns.

besides, how many runs can they do if they draw that much attention to them selves? the only jobs they will get after a while is a merc job in bumf*%k middle of no where rainforrest full od awakened creatures.......or at least in my book thats what would happen. biggrin.gif
Traks
Hell. I have limited my players to 2 simple attack actions or 1 complex per TURN.
So they do not want that high initiative that much. I know, I AM evil and proud of it

But yes, availability index is there, so your players have something that they want to get in game, not that they have everything. Just learn to say NO to their new toys.
Austere Emancipator
Getting a Reaction of 30 is, for most intents and purposes, impossible. Getting average initiative that high isn't even too hard, if you have loads of cash. Because BlackSmith talked about 1200-karma characters in an earlier thread, I'm guessing money won't be a problem. So they all probably have Wired-3 + ReactionEnchancer-6 or Boosted-3 + Synaptic-2 + ReactionEnchancer-6. Add some drugs on top of that, and you'll be rolling 31+ constantly.

Wired-3 + RE-6 + Qui-8 + Int-8 + Supra + Artwink = 22 Reaction, 4d6 + 22 Init. Min 26, max 46, average 40. Add Cram and Jazz and you get 2 more Reaction, 2 more dice = 6d6 + 24, min 30, max 60, average 45.

Oops! I missed the point about them being new chars!

Well then, be sure to check compatibility (from M&M, and in SR3 too), Essence and Bio, side-effects, everything. Everyone getting 31+ inits with starting chars sounds a bit freaky... A full-speed streetsam can do it, but the rest shouldn't. Wired-3 + RE-2 + Supra + Artwink + Qui-8/Int-6 + Cram + Jazz = 6d6 + 19, min 25, max 55, average 40.
BumsofTacoma
Austere..............................................
..................................


you scare me......... eek.gif
sidekick
wait....starting characters with HV? What sort of whack availability rules are you running with?

base 30 reaction..... I have to ask how? As Austere showed us, it's basically impossible to have a base 30 reaction as an experienced character, let alone a starting one.

But since your main question was how to deal with these monstrousities, not are they possible, here is a little advice.

Nodachi's are very big. IIRC they are like 6 feet long (we won't even get into how much it costs to dikote one). With that in mind, they are nearly impossible to use indoors. There just isn't enough room to use it effectively, it'll hit the walls and ceiling. Keep that in mind.

HV weapon's recoils generally ass rape the user. Even with it's 3 pts of internal compensations, the fact that it can't mount a barrel reciol supression (like out good friend Gas Vent Mark IV) means that after the first couple of shots, the weapon becomes to ungainly to hit anything.


----

Edit: a dikoted Nodachi doesn't do Serious, it does Deadly. (Dikote raises the damage level by one, and Nodachi normally do Serious).
BTW, on an evil GM sidenote. Those are some pretty fancy tows they have. The kind of fancy toys that someone else would pay good nuyen for (HVARs are notoriously rare). Additionally, they are pretty rare gear. The kind of gear that causes word on the street that you posses it. Just keep that in mind. An HVAR is a lovely weapon, but it doesn't do you a lot of good when the 3 punks break into your apartment at night and kill you while you sleep to steal it.

But, for god's sake, please check the numbers on those characters, they are crazy. Remember. 8 avail max, no beta or delta, only a 1 million nuyen to start, wired doesn't stack with boosted reflexes, neither stack with magical boosts, move-by-wire stacks with none. Of course, these are only the cannon rules, so it's all out the window if you play with house rules.
Austere Emancipator
No-Dachis were/are not 6 feet long. That would've made them almost a foot longer than the people who wielded them. The No-Dachi in that link is 4' 8" (149cm). The longest European-style 2-h swords were/are significantly longer than that, the one I linked to being 5' 3" (160cm).

Still, using one indoors is certainly more difficult than in open space.
BlackSmith
they are all legal charcters, nothing over 8 avail, everything fucking stacks that can be stacked, 123 points used.

If the GM says one yes for any whining, he sudenly has to handle with character that has SOTA edge and double HV SMG's that rolls 10 dice MINIMUM per hand, recoil beeing no problem thanks to wrist gyros and recoil compensations. last his character dropped four bursts per phase, called always in head and swinged dicote no-dach for fun.
OR you sudenlly have to deal with human that has no-dach that does ~23D and aptitude in martial arts rolling +10 dices. thank god the player dont like trolls.

i made a nice character and he rolls best 4 dice and thats in spellcasting and decking + pools. i realy like him but try to shine when other roll their secondary skills with sixs dice...

this was suposed to be new nonElite characters. rrriiight...
well it is a bit step back for me anyway. no more castign spells with 11 dices.
well its then spirit &/ drone gaming then...
Tanka
Remember, the final say is always with the GM. If he don't like it, it don't go. So the guy with an Aptitude in any sort of combat/magic/whatever his big time speciality is should not have that edge anyway. It even says GMs should probably not allow it.

Oh, and the SOTA Edge went out with SR2. It no longer exists in SR3.
BlackSmith
QUOTE (tanka @ Jan 6 2004, 03:23 PM)
Oh, and the SOTA Edge went out with SR2.  It no longer exists in SR3.

yes it went.
that should give some figure how old characters we are talking about.

and like is said, if GM isin't paying close atention in these character makings, we get these aptitude deckers and combats.

so should the system get a check in avail part or are we just too good min/maxers?
Glyph
The problem isn't that the players are good min-maxers; the problem only arises if the GM can't challenge them. And keep in mind that unlike D&D, starting shadowrunners are professional criminals who start out experienced (look at the Street Samurai or Street Mage Archetypes - these people have been doing it for awhile), unless the GM actually said he wanted "rookie" runners.

What's the problem with the characters? Is it that the GM can't challenge them, or that your character can't keep up? If it's the latter, then the problem might not be them. Shadowrun may lend itself to lots of roleplaying, but combat and other success tests come down to dice. If 6 is the maximum starting skill, I would generally assume that characters would take a skill at 6 in their chosen specialty. 4 dice for spellcasting after dice pools? Considering that spellcasting is resisted by the target? Even the basic book archetypes can sling 11+ dice - a spellslinger with foci and totem bonuses can do a lot better than that. I applaud you for making a non-min/maxed character, but that kind of character will get overshadowed in a game where everyone else is powergaming. And if everyone else is doing it one way, and you are doing it another way, then I'm afraid it may be you who needs to modify his playing style a bit.

If the problem is that the GM can't challenge them, then give him some of the good tactical advice that has been presented here. The GM has an incredible amount of stuff that he can toss at the players, from gangers to bioweapons to vampires, etc. If he has trouble challenging a starting group of players, even high-powered ones, then I assume it is probably just inexperience.
BlackSmith
QUOTE (Glyph)
And keep in mind that unlike D&D, starting shadowrunners are professional criminals who start out experienced...

damn good point. we usualy play D&D at summers and SR at winter and that gets forgotten easily...
QUOTE
If 6 is the maximum starting skill, I would generally assume that characters would take a skill at 6 in their chosen specialty.  4 dice for spellcasting after dice pools?  Considering that spellcasting is resisted by the target?  Even the basic book archetypes can sling 11+ dice - a spellslinger with foci and totem bonuses can do a lot better than that.
my character has sorcery/spellcasting 2/4 plus pools.
might be that i make the character again, when i have goen all these new books and erratas. that bioware affectiong only half to magic was a damn nice suprise at elast.
QUOTE
I applaud you for making a non-min/maxed character, but that kind of character will get overshadowed in a game where everyone else is powergaming.  And if everyone else is doing it one way, and you are doing it another way, then I'm afraid it may be you who needs to modify his playing style a bit.

well im not sure about non-M/M character...
ill just make him trough nsrgc and up load to some geocities so you can see him.

ill add the link soon
BlackSmith
http://www.geocities.com/black_smith_fi/

there
BitBasher
QUOTE
If the GM says one yes for any whining, he sudenly has to handle with character that has SOTA edge {1} and double HV SMG's that rolls 10 dice MINIMUM per hand, recoil beeing no problem thanks to wrist gyros {2} and recoil compensations. last his character dropped four bursts per phase, called always in head {3} and swinged dicote no-dach for fun. {4}
OR you sudenlly have to deal with human that has no-dach that does ~23D and aptitude in martial arts {5} rolling +10 dices. thank god the player dont like trolls.


{1} SOTA edge is gone, and for good reason. I strongly recommend playing 3rd edition it solves a lot fo power balance issues.

{2}Wrist gyros are totally obvious and not removable. The is character SHOULD get screwed sooner or later for having them.

{3}You cannot call more than one shot to the head. Calling a shot is a free action and you only get one free action. You can make ONE called shot to the head, which does not ignore armor, and three normal shots.

{4}Also a non concealable weapon. Welcome to getting screwed by Lone Star for carrying it around.

{5}Allowing an aptitude in martial arts is the GM's issue. remember NPC's can and should have aptitudes too. Or even bettrer the book directly recommends the GM not allow aptitudes for combat skills.
BlackSmith
QUOTE (BitBasher)
{3}You cannot call more than one shot to the head. Calling a shot is a free action and you only get one free action. You can make ONE called shot to the head, which does not ignore armor, and three normal shots.

fhmm.... haven noticed that one.
well it still ends up for one burst with unarmored head and additional three bursts per phase.
but good point never the less
BitBasher
By the book rules, called shots do NOT bypass armor. They only stage the damage up one level. See mutiple flame fests on the boards for more information.

Also see:
Shadowrun has no armor location system, its all abstract.
and:
Its realistic.
and:
It's unrealistic.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE
By the book rules, called shots do NOT bypass armor.

This is true. Is FAQ canon though? It certainly isn't "book rules", I know that. nyahnyah.gif
BitBasher
The FAQ is not canon, it does not alter any rules, its just an interpretation.

The Errata is official changes.

That's why th FAQ is separate from the eratta. The FAQ is often full of some seriously crackheaded decisions. biggrin.gif
sidekick
Blacksmith

Dual HV SMGs? Okay, that means he has the Supermach, which like our friend the HVAR has 3 RC and can't accept barrel mounts. The wrist gyro mounts provide additional 3 pts. Firing two weapons garners a +2 modifier to each weapon, and recoil modifiers apply to both, oh... and NO targeting bonuses apply. He's calling a shot... joy, that means an additional +4 modifer

So
Free Action: Call shot
First Simple Action: fire dual Supermachs. 6 pt recoil countered by internal RC and wrist gyros. TN = 10 (4 + 2 for dual weapons + 4 for called shot)
Second Simple Action: fire dual Supermachs again. 6 points of recoil occur for EACH weapons. TN= 18(4 + 2 for dual weapons + 12 for recoil [6 pts from each])

Turn over, in all actuality, you have two things, jack and shit... and jack just left town.

Moral of this story, uncompensated recoil and firing dual weapons is not a good idea.

How can they roll 10 dice minimum? 5/7 specialty+ 1 Artwinkulation + 1 for reflex recorder = 6/9 in the skill. I would still like to know how they got those ungodly Innishes

From the sound of all this, there was some definite dubious math in the creation of these characters.

BlackSmith
from FAQ:
1...
2. The attack bypasses the target's armor. In this case, the attack's Damage Code is not modified, but the Power is not reduced by armor bonuses. (Note that the attacker can simply choose a location on the target that is less armored, rather than bypassing the armor completely, so that only the armor in that location applies).
3...

This is OFFICIAL FAQ, so called shot to head deliver full punch if the target is not using helmet.

the character using SMG's uses four long bursts, no calling.
the old one used two savale guardians and always called in head.

only 6/9? please. try even.
5/7 + 5 from imp ability = 12 dices when spraying your smg's + dice pool(s) and zero money spent.

i drop those figures when i see their charcters again.
Glyph
Actually, now that bioware has been changed in the errata, you could have the above plus the enhanced articulation and a reflex recorder, to throw down 14 dice.

I've looked at your character, and to be honest, it looks like you tried to do too much (decker, adept, mage, and even a bit of sammie) and spread yourself too thin. A lot of the high Attributes could be lowered a bit to give you higher skills (a Quickness of 6 but your rifles skill is only 2, and you have no stealth skill; Charisma of 6 but etiquette of only 1, and you have no conjuring skill), with the exception of Body, which needs to be higher. You don't have enough dice for really effective spellcasting, and about half of your spells would give you physical Drain if cast at maximum Force, due to your effective Magic rating of 3. Not that stun touch would do much for you with a martial arts skill of 1 - unarmed combat is a dice contest, meaning you can attack someone but wind up being the one taking damage.

I know some people despise metagaming, probably because they've seen it being abused by people out to squeeze every last dice out for their one-dimensional slaughtering machine. But a bit of it is good. You need to keep how the game mechanics work in mind, or you will create a character who can't properly perform at the role you have envisioned for him.
BlackSmith
his magic is 4, not 3.

the other numbers are not right because of old rules.
damn i have to scrap my bio stuff, their cultured. well more skills then or mojo.
Glyph
If his Magical Ability power is 4, then he could take the fetish for lowered Drain option on those Force: 5 spells, and be able to cast them at Force: 5 without taking physical damage from Drain.
BlackSmith
well i remade hem almost.
gotta see your psots tomorrow. gota sleep sometime wink.gif
sidekick
QUOTE (BlackSmith @ Jan 6 2004, 03:29 PM)
from FAQ:
1...
2. The attack bypasses the target's armor. In this case, the attack's Damage Code is not modified, but the Power is not reduced by armor bonuses. (Note that the attacker can simply choose a location on the target that is less armored, rather than bypassing the armor completely, so that only the armor in that location applies).
3...

This is OFFICIAL FAQ, so called shot to head deliver full punch if the target is not using helmet.

the character using SMG's uses four long bursts, no calling.
the old one used two savale guardians and always called in head.

only 6/9? please. try even.
5/7 + 5 from imp ability = 12 dices when spraying your smg's + dice pool(s) and zero money spent.

i drop those figures when i see their charcters again.

Ah, so they are an Adept, I was under the impression that the character in question was a Sammie. If they are an adept, where do those Wrist Gyros come from? They are a cyberware mod which only add onto cyber-arms.

So even though he doesn't call shots anymore, the first two long bursts are at TN 6, while the second two are at TN 18. These are without any cover, movement, or wound modifiers.

So even with 12 dice, the character is rarely going to get more then 2-3 successes, and that is only on the first two bursts.

So wait, the guy with the two Supermach's is an adept? How in the bloody blue blazes did he get an innitative of above 30? Especially since he already spent 2.5 adept points on improved Sub-machine guns.

You said these were starting level characters right? Built with cannon character creation rules?

----
Edit: What is a H&K 7529 Hunter... I've never heard of this gun. What book is it from?
toturi
It is probably a custom weapon.

And Canon is spelt C_A_N_O_N. Cannon is what you shoot.
Austere Emancipator
Yeah, all that isn't adding up. 2.5 for Improved Ability (SMG), or 2 with geas. Getting high init the adept way would also require Improved Reflexes-3, 3.75 with geas. Even that wouldn't get the init higher than ~12+4d6 for a regular human, 16-36 with an average of 26. Getting it the other way would either require Wired-3 + Reaction Enhancers, which would eat up all 6 points of Magic and burning them out immediately (can't afford Alpha Wired at chargen), or Synaptic-2 + Boosted-3 + Reaction Enhancers, at least 12+5d6 which takes 620,000 nuyen (or 860,000 nuyen with Alphaware REs), and takes up 4 points of Magic, 17-47 with an average of 32.

Unless they've got shitloads of geasa, that just isn't happening. And if they do have shitloads of geasa, make sure all geasa really limit their magic use (ie do not allow item geasa which are body piercing jewelry). Then watch them squirm as they get hit by high-Force Toxic Waves and they suddenly lose half their magical abilities.
toturi
He might be using move-by-wires but that doesn't fit either. A minimum of 30 initiative means something is seriously wrong in that game.

30 - 6 = 24 Assuming his dice all roll 2, that would mean a Reaction of more than 16. That is flat out impossible for a Canon(priority or 123BP) starting charactor.

The only way I can see that happening is that their GM made them use BeCKS and gave them karma until it came out of their ears. That is what I hate about BeCKS, no Canon material to back it up. And all it takes is a GM that gave his players a billion karma to come here and post his 70 initiative charactor.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (toturi)
The only way I can see that happening is that their GM made them use BeCKS and gave them karma until it came out of their ears. That is what I hate about BeCKS, no Canon material to back it up. And all it takes is a GM that gave his players a billion karma to come here and post his 70 initiative charactor.

WTF?! Making people use BeCKS and then giving them too much Karma is no different from making people use the BP system and then giving them too many BPs. Or using the Priority System and giving them all A's. The BeCKS system clearly states how much Karma starting characters should be given to make them balanced with the other chargen systems.

All it takes is a GM that gave his players 100,000 BPs to come here and post his 70 initiative character.
toturi
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
WTF?! Making people use BeCKS and then giving them too much Karma is no different from making people use the BP system and then giving them too many BPs. Or using the Priority System and giving them all A's. The BeCKS system clearly states how much Karma starting characters should be given to make them balanced with the other chargen systems.

All it takes is a GM that gave his players 100,000 BPs to come here and post his 70 initiative character.

No, BPs are limited in that the maximum cash you can get is 1mil nuyen.gif. Period.

But in BeCKS you can max out your cash and then use cash for karma to get over a million nuyen.gif ! Then with enough karma you can get that delta MBW 4.

With BeCKS, you can have as many initiations as you can take. That is the flaw of BeCKS, it is too easily abused.

BTW, a 10000000BP charactor cannot have 70 Initiative. Because all the BPs in the world isn't going to buy you that delta MBW 4. And quite frankly, I can't think of a way to get 70. The highest I have got is 65.
Austere Emancipator
I've never used Cash for Karma, and I've used BeCKS to make starting characters... 5 times? Raping BeCKS to get 16 million nuyen.gif is no better than raping the BP rules to get 16 million nuyen.gif -- you aren't supposed to do either. Cash for Karma is an optional rule, which also says that the GM should decide for himself what exchange rate he uses (in addition to deciding whether he allows it to be used at all). BTW, with the selling price of 1 Karma point put in the SRCG as standard, it would take 64,000 Karma to get Deltaware MBW-4. With the best possible rate fathomable after reading SR3Companion, 1000 nuyen for a point of Karma, that's still 16,000 Karma to get that MBW-4. Good luck with that...

If the GM decides to allow Initiation at chargen, then you can Initiate at chargen with BeCKS (BeCKS says: "The GM may decide to allow ..."). Some GMs allow this with other chargen systems too, by using Spell Points as Karma.

QUOTE
BTW, a 10000000BP charactor cannot have 70 Initiative. Because all the BPs in the world isn't going to buy you that delta MBW 4. And quite frankly, I can't think of a way to get 70. The highest I have got is 65.

Buy 1 million nuyen. Buy 1 million nuyen again. Repeat 14 more times. That's just as stupid and as much breaking the rules as it is when doing the same with BeCKS.
toturi
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
I've never used Cash for Karma, and I've used BeCKS to make starting characters... 5 times? Raping BeCKS to get 16 million nuyen.gif is no better than raping the BP rules to get 16 million nuyen.gif -- you aren't supposed to do either. Cash for Karma is an optional rule, which also says that the GM should decide for himself what exchange rate he uses (in addition to deciding whether he allows it to be used at all). BTW, with the selling price of 1 Karma point put in the SRCG as standard, it would take 64,000 Karma to get Deltaware MBW-4. With the best possible rate fathomable after reading SR3Companion, 1000 nuyen for a point of Karma, that's still 16,000 Karma to get that MBW-4. Good luck with that...

If the GM decides to allow Initiation at chargen, then you can Initiate at chargen with BeCKS (BeCKS says: "The GM may decide to allow ..."). Some GMs allow this with other chargen systems too, by using Spell Points as Karma.

QUOTE
BTW, a 10000000BP charactor cannot have 70 Initiative. Because all the BPs in the world isn't going to buy you that delta MBW 4. And quite frankly, I can't think of a way to get 70. The highest I have got is 65.

Buy 1 million nuyen. Buy 1 million nuyen again. Repeat 14 more times. That's just as stupid and as much breaking the rules as it is when doing the same with BeCKS.

BP doesn't allow you to buy Resources again and again. You do it only once. You can't buy 1 mil for 30BPs and then do it again, you do it only once.

Same for BeCKS but the problem is that you CAN do cash for karma if the GM allows it. And you might just have the karma for it.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (toturi)
the problem is that you CAN do cash for karma if the GM allows it

You can do anything if the GM allows it. No matter what the system, if the GM decides to allow something, you can do it. The difference between BP and BeCKS is that BeCKS gives you more suggestions to what the GM might allow.
Reaver
One thing that should be noted, you cannot have more than four actions in a combat round... no matter how fast you go. Now, I know for sure that was the way it was in 2nd Ed. and I don't have the 3rd Ed. core rules with me. Frankly, any sane GM should keep that rule in place to prevent people from trying to get insanely high initiative scores.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE
One thing that should be noted, you cannot have more than four actions in a combat round...

There's no such rule in 3rd Ed. And it would make MBW-4 totally useless -- currently you can squeeze 6 actions into a CT with ease with those. Although some would say nerfing MBW-4 isn't a bad idea... On the other hand, those don't allow as high as Init score as Wired-3+RE-6 or BR-3+SA-2+RE-6.
Reaver
Having a limit of 4 actions doesn't make MBW useless. MBW just allows a person to have the drop on most people and a garauntee of going first.

Another bonus of limiting to a max of 4 actions. Combat goes faster. Combat slows the game down more than anything. Have more than 4 actions per round would slow it down even more.
Tanka
QUOTE (Reaver)
One thing that should be noted, you cannot have more than four actions in a combat round... no matter how fast you go. Now, I know for sure that was the way it was in 2nd Ed. and I don't have the 3rd Ed. core rules with me. Frankly, any sane GM should keep that rule in place to prevent people from trying to get insanely high initiative scores.

What rule is that? I play SR2 offline and I've never read such a rule anywhere.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE
MBW just allows a person to have the drop on most people and a garauntee of going first.

It doesn't guarantee that. Both Wired-3 + RE-6 & BR-3 + SA-2 + RE-6 combos are faster in pure init than MBW-4. The edge MBW-4 gives is the ability to have 2 actions in the first 2 init passes, for a total of 6 or even 7 successes.
TheScamp
QUOTE
BP doesn't allow you to buy Resources again and again. You do it only once. You can't buy 1 mil for 30BPs and then do it again, you do it only once.

I can't find anything in the SR Comp that says this. Could you give a page reference, please?
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