The Rulebook already mentions it, but since you are too lazy to dig it up for yourself:

Trolls: homo sapiens ingentis
Orcs: homo sapiens robustus
Dwarves: homo sapiens pumolionis

This is a metaphysics debate. Neither side can win.

But both sides can lose.

Also D2F, there is a "cure" for metahumanity in DNA DOA... from 1990.... *edit*1989, I gues I got it LATE

I guess the early stuff is just unpopular.

BlueMax
/confirmed loser

did you know a simple genetic modification can bring out dinosaur traits in birds? and what I more ment was magic was involved so science doesnt hold very well.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2009/08/scientist...enetically.html

SR4A, p.66:

human: Homo sapiens sapiens
elf: H.s. nobilis
dwarf: H.s. pumilionis
orc: H.s. robustus
troll: H.s. ingentis

"all are human beings, at least according to the geneticists.
Racists say differently."

or dont know where to look

or dont have the book its in.

thanks for enlightening the ignorant.

Naturally, there is a cure, since the subtype is merely a genetic expression of the homo sapiens species. To even further support that, check the Augmentations rules for genetic modification. You can chane your metatype with a simple procedure now.

And no, it wasn't a metaphysics debate. It was a lore debate and a "scientific" one on top of that (considering that agic is considered a science in SR). The SR universe is pretty specific as to how metahumanity came to be.



What was that link for? Everyone knows that birds are descendants from raptors. Naturally they would have dormant raptor genes. What else would you expect?

Oh, and I should also point out that Homo sapien nobilis isn't a correct scientific name for anything, because the name of a species is binomial. Thus the nobilis is just a convention for clarification, and not any indication of a new species.

Also, check your basic biology. Species is basically defined by ability to breed and produce viable offspring. Yes, most species in the same genus can breed, but they don't produce viable offspring. All metatypes and their metavarients can produce viable offspring with any other, thus making them all the same species, and thus the same race. Subspecies is basically a term that doesn't mean anything except 'To help keep things a little clear, we're going to call these things by slightly different names'. Kind of like you call a poodle a poodle and not just a dog when saying what kind of dog you have. It is still a dog, you just want to make it clear what kind of dog you have, and what it generally looks like.

You don't have the Core Rulebook?

That would explain the constant 'this is lore' followed by something that isn't lore at all.

Daylen is not the Lore Thumper. Shinobi Killfist is. Don't confuse the two. So far Daylen's comments have not been technically false.

I guess everyone on is a whippersnapper

BlueMax
/me grabs his cane.

Geeze people, you're all pretty grumpy today.

I dont have SR4. just SR3 and I couldnt find it in there.

Sure they have. Among other things he's claimed that the metatypes are different races, which they (scientifically speaking) aren't. Racists will certainly say they are different races, but that doesn't make it true (Just like saying blacks were a different race didn't make that true)

I was starting to get confused about what I was saying myself. I didnt think I'd been claiming any RAW in this thread. Asking about RAW yes.

Race !

I owe you an apology. I just checked my copy of the SR3 Rulebook and you are riht, it's not in there. Which baffled me, so I checked my SR1 and SR2 copies and they have it in there. I have no clue why SR3 was an exception to that rule.

Anyways, please accept my apology.



That's whyt the Priority Table calls it. If you check the descrition of that table category in the actual rules, it will tell you tat "Race" in the Priority Table refers to "Metatype". If you further check the Lore background you will find the explanation of metatpy e also the specific mention that all of them are homo sapiens.



Daylen merely said they were different subspecies and not different phenotypes (as I claimed). And he was (and still is) correct in that assertion.

are you getting mad at me because I am not being SR PC?! and are you calling me a racist or am I just being defensive?

Yeah, that's what I thought. But you know us old guys. Lucky if we can remember what day it is.

Thankfully, someone will be around to whitewash over Tuesday and make us all think its a glorious Friday.

BlueMax

no sweat, I just figured I was blind.

No, I meant racists within the context of the game (like Humanis members) and racists of the past (Like KKK members). I was saying that scientifically speaking you were wrong about them being a different race, but a racist (within the game, like a Humanis member) would say that you are right and they are a different race (That needs to be purged from this earth )

I dont think I ever mentioned race... and looking back I cant find saying they were a differant species (I suggested a hypothesis that they were and was quickly disproved in RAW). the closest I came was saying they were probably a different subspecies. so why would I care what... SR racists agree with?

It's been ages I didn't touch my 2nd ed books but still remember my priorities ! A for when I was going to make a Street sam ! and E for Race !

Hahaha! So true.
Makes me wish I could still have a million nuyen in SR4 =)

Weird, I know someone said something about them being a different race (Specifically talking about racists actually being against a different race) and thought it was you. Must have gotten it mixed up in the few dozen posts over the last 20 minutes. Sorry about that.

That would have been Shinobi Killfist, who thankfully zipped his screamer.

Hmm, must have gotten the two mixed up then.

no prob, its been alot of posts in a short time

I would have made a Jarhead Cyborg

I would have made myself a warform Biodrone =)

Wow, you are just full of douche bag aren't you. In previous editions they referred to them both as race and metatype, if you want to get your panties in a bunch over this go right ahead. Still doesn't change the fact that Hot female trolls are lame.

Probably. The thing is: I have a really low tolerance for stupidity and you passed my threshold. You can't just spout outright lies, masked as arguments and think you can get away with it unscathed. Especially when the rulesbooks you are trying to refer to directly contradict your own claims. Multiple posters here have already made you aware of that little fact yet you keep ignoring it. Sorry, but ignorance is not an excuse.



Regardless of how often you repeat that, it is not true. The only mention of "Race" in ANY SR edition is in the context of priority assignment. And even in the description of that very category, the text refers explicitly to its reference to the player characters metatype. Again, you can jump and kick and scream until you are blue in the face. Even if you repeat your nonsense a hundred times, it will STILL not be true.

You might even get away with your ruse, if you were arguing with someone who started with 3rd or 4th ed, but I have been playing since 1st edition as well and I know the lore. You can't hide behind editions from me.


Personal opinion and as such irrelevant to the discussion.

So, check out the picture in the middle of the buzzkill story that is at the beginning of SR4.

You're all wrong and racists.
Now can we get back to hot female troll pr0n? (Or whatever the topic was)


I like the male troll in this one: still troll enough but not ridiculous/ugly.
But the female doesn't look like a troll to me. At first I thought she was a human (or ork) with horns.

Sure, we were just figuring out against whom we can really be racist

And while my oooooold copy of SR2 (no, I didn't play back then) mentions "race" a few times, the descriptions of metatypes make it obvious that "race" was used in its everyday meaning, as in "human races", and not in the scientific sense of the word.


Damn, I thought it was about hot ot troll-on-dwarf action



Would be a fine example of a changeling who is not a complete freak, though. Which also seems to be rare.

"Race" is not a scientific term to begin with.

Lady sasquatches are hot.

*fap fap fap*

But still it's the term used to describe the different genus in previous edition. It evolved to Transhumanity and Metahumanity.

My second edition printing still says "Metatype". The only mention of "Race" in there is in relation to the Priority category and even the description of that category states that "race" in this case refers to "metatype".

Unfortunately, my 1st ed BBB is in ruins right now.

http://puddingbat.deviantart.com/art/Crunch1-21827615
http://liik.deviantart.com/art/Cody-109563144

Female trolls !

Considering that ork children express the robustus 95% of the time at puberty (source SR4, pg 66; or SR4a, pg 72) means that there's a 5% chance an ork child is actually human, and until puberty you can't tell an ork child from a human child just by looking at them. Then there's the giants, a troll metavariant, where 25% of all females are born human (source RC, pg 57), and is mentioned as "genetic reversion".

That, and IIRC it's mentioned somewhere that children of crossbreeding (i.e.; elf mother, troll father) tend to result in human offspring as opposed to the metatype of either parent. This I could be wrong, but it's something stuck rattling in my brain from somewhere.

Yes, I remember the point about crossbreeding (but not from where it comes). This makes sense, as each parent has adifferent set of metagenes, probably sharing several locations on chromosomes. This reduce the likelyhood of the child to have a complete set of either metatype, so he more often than not is sapiens.

At least I know I'm not hallucinating this one.

Thought I'd dig up an older book, and I found this that might be a little helpful:


So I guess I was wrong after all, after a fashion. Also, I figure the usage of the term "race" in the above is used in the same fashion as race is used to describe Caucasian or Latino or Asian (to name a few examples), and not meaning to suggest a radical difference like lions and horses.

And as of the timeline for SR4, I guess the genetic drift for metavariants has stabilized. Especially when I found similar references in the SR4 & SR4a books about mixed parentage (50/50 chance of being either parent's metatype), that goblinization is not only exceedingly rare but also something that can only happen to a human at puberty, and nothing about surprise babies (dwarf parents getting a troll baby, for example).

This DO opens up a few ideas if we go by the Earthdawn/Shadowrun connection.

The awakening started the split of metahumanity into sifferent subgroups of metahumans and they all call themselves metahumans in 2070 – most likely since they all see each other as metahumans because all emerged from the same Homo Sapiens Sapien.

But what about in a thousand years? In Earthdawn they all see themselves as different species/people that cannot interbreed (if I remember correctly). In a thousand year or two the awakening will be so much legend if metahumanity have a serious case of information breakdown (like a second VITAS plague combined with a third world war).

A couple things are relevant there:

1.) Genetic drift. Given enough time, they could develop into distinctly different species (unlikely, but in general possible)
2.) Quite a few of the earthdawn races are still missing. Obsidians and Tskrang to name just two.
3.) The significantly higher mana level in Earthdawn could have a more dire effect on the genetic expression of "awakened genes", further emphasizing speciation.
4.) Earthdawn is not Shadowrun. They are tied together by their background, but to draw direct comparisons between the two is impractical. They vary far too much from each other to be considered equal (ressurection, to name one of the aspects, the scale of Blood magic to name the other).

IRL humanity also shares a common ancestry, yet we still have plenty of racism.

True, but the distinction between Homo Sapien Sapien and Homo Sapien Robustus would be akin (in appearance) to the Cro-magnon and modern man due to the awakening creating a more distinct difference than mere skin colour and superficial facial changes.

Common ancestry will disperse over time and one could say that the awakening shifted people a few hundred thousand years apart in an instant.

You can't just go by appearance, though. Scientific knowledge won't simply disappear over night. Take a look at an Irish Wolfhound and a Chichuaha. They are still the same species. Hell, they are even the same subspecies. But they look nothing alike.

On a sidenote: The Cro-Magnon, or "Early Modern Human" (EMH)/"Anatomically Modern Human" (AMH) looked pretty much like a modern human already. Your analogy between EMH and robustus is flawed.