True, but the hacker has lots of stuff that the TM can not get (without taking a hit to their oh'so'important Resonance). Plus a hacker will almost always be a more rounded character then a TM, due to a TM being a massive Karma/BP sink. A TM does have the ability in the long run to totally ownz all on the matrix. You just have to ask yourself, when is enough enough. When is it time to branch out and spread your abilties over a wider area rather then focusing on the increasing expensive (with shrinking returns) task of getting better.

By shrinking returns, I mean % increase. Going from 10 to 11 dice is a 10% increase. Going from 20 to 21 dice is only a 5% increase. Compounding that is the fact that that 11th die is most likely costing a lot less then that 21st die.

Whereas a hacker's growth is linear in cost (rating 5 instead of rating 6? only 500 more newyen), not to mention that money is far far easier to come by.

Nuyen Rewards versus Karma Rewards are dependent on individual games.

Initial build costs versus improvement costs are also dependent on game expectations.

The TM|Hacker contrast models very much like the Magic|Mundane one. More BP to gain an initial attribute and Positive quality, which allow for some interesting abilities and effects which are not directly attribute|skill based as you might do with a Mundane/Cyber character.

The relative value of Attribute + Skill between PC archetypes does not take into account the far larger factors of the PC versus game world opponents and circumstances, which are controlled far more by player expectations of the game world.

Consider a game group that thinks Hackers always superior to TMs. Aren't they likely to model this assumption into their game world and expectations? Will they play a TM? Will they encounter a NPC one? Will npc or pc TM be as effective as it could be in this type of game? (Note that I haven't claimed which is better.)

It's your choice and opinion, how you play the game and view the PC you have will be a much better indicator of the value of that character then simple attribute and skill numbers. (Keeping in mind that attribute + skill numbers might be the actual measure of the game fun for some.)

So mechanically, all it comes down to is total dice rolled? That would be disappointing if true. I was hoping to find truly unique differences once I understood TMs.

I would like to add that I am not saying a Hacker is more powerful then a TM. I'm just sticking up for them since they seemed to have a distinct lack of support in this thread compared to TMs.

I will also agree that a hacker isn't more powerful than a TM, as a technomancer in his specialty is more powerful.

What I'm arguing is that a hacker is more useful and that if something goes wrong (oh my god, the node actually detected me despite my stealth of 9000!) they can deal with it. A technomancer who has Stealth, Exploit, and some other minor CFs (edit, etc.) goes "Oh holy FUCK" and jacks out, unable to continue. Attempting to continue would likely result in getting booted from the Matrix anyway (ah...my Matrix Condition monitor IS my stun track, which I can't heal with Medic nor reduce the actual pain with Biofeedback).

TMs have a totally different outlook on the matrix. Sprites and some echos give them unique abilities. They don´t need 5 soft-maxed attributes - resonance and fading stat will do. They require more finesse than hackers, as you need to coordinate threading and sprite commands with everything else a hacker does, too. Combat hacking is way easier for hackers. Our current group has both a TM and a rigger/hacker, and both players are content.

That's only one specific scenario. There are lots of ways for a TM to deal with failed Hacks. While it is true the consequences for a TM when taking damage are significantly worse then a Hackers simply rebooting, there are more options for a TM when a Hacking attempt is detected.

My opinion is the total dice rolled is not the measure to use. One area to research to find things a TM can do versus a Hacker is to look at Sprite powers and abilities.

Sprite powers make up for the TM's lack of dice.

Unless you task them to wander off on their own like a spirit, in which case, they'll function like 1/3rd of a hacker.

With the exception of sprites, by the time the otaku has earned enough karma for all those things, the decker will have gotten a lot better as well.

Yeah, my eyes glanced over those posts too quickly. Sorry about that.

Some back ground, in my current campaign I have one technomancer that also doubles as a rigger (He is also the most experience player which helps). One run he slow hacked the nodes sytem around the docks containing the precious cargo the group was hired to retrieve (very very valuable ). Essentially the system had no chance in hell with his threaded up stealth program. He was able to get admin access pretty easy, and the system security.

He was then able to hop to the two other nodes that controlled the drones and dumped the three steel lynxes into the Puget Sound. The arial drone went on sortie to parts unknow (however the opposing rigger eventually spoofed it to take commands from his comm). Taking over the ships network was easy, as he locked all the bulkheads except those the team needed to get to the storage hold and get the goods. He had a brief encounter with the security decker though (decker also on arrival).

In the end, I thought it should have been harder...though I may have to make these systems tougher. I am just wondering how to do that and not seem like I am just slapping my big GM d&^K on the table.

Is everyone having fun? If yes...
Is the game completely broken and unchallenging? If no...
Are all the PCs getting a chance in the lime light? If yes...
No problems here

--Else see below
Before making any changes, make sure you discuss it with the players and explain why you are thinking about making the changes. If everyone but the TM player wants you to make them, then it most likely is a good idea. If everyone doesn't want you to make the changes, then it most likely isn't.

Changing to "Using Attributes" and making Sprites assist into "+rating to a specific program dice pool" will cut down on the ratings of his complex forms and dice pools. However, it might totally dork the character depending on the build so you might have to do a little work with the player to rebalance him after a game or two. Make sure you explain to the player that you are willing to work with him at a little numbers shuffling if the character is totally dorked. If his complaint is a lowering of power (though he can still function in all his past rolls) then you actually fixed the problem.

Explaining that your not out to mess him up but to ensure the game is fun for all players might help.

No, I didn't. No the other player didn't (the two TMs I've known)
Quite the reverse, it was impossible with my getup. Admittedly I'd made design mistakes intended for a different game (Stealth? What stealth? I'm running pell mell through intergalactic dataspace trying to stay alive while hostile AIs BORG everything). The other player had a different problem in that in order for the game to be interesting for him (paraplegic TM) the GM had to go to extra lengths to GM stuff Just For Him (which eventually I had to do, and as no one in our group really understands how the matrix rules work....I was looking up a lot of stuff in the books and making a shit ton of mistakes that had to be retconned then retconned again).
And no. My TM was in a game that died because 4 people decided to stop making posts before the run ever got started. Other player: not really. Since he changed characters and the group's needed something done in the matrix we funnel some cash into the NPC version and the job gets done. Which was about what his role amounted to in the game anyway.

As for making changes, I think the entire TM section needs to be scrapped and rebuilt from the ground up. Based on the book Psychotrope Technomancers use the matrix just like any other hacker does, only they create their programs on the fly (the five main characters were so completely unaware that they were running on their wetware their Complex Forms were their programs: they operated just like they used to, they looked like what they used to, and there were the same limitations.

2 main issues that need to be addressed:

Matrix Condition track for TMs is their stun track, effectively making them squisher than hackers (who only take stun damage when they get dumped and can resist it, the amount they take is generally low enough that they can log back in again and keep going until they get dumped a second time--TMs can only get dumped once and at that point they're on the floor out cold). Biofeedback filters (including the nice juicy Positive Quality one does jack didly shit for technomancers. JACK DIDDLY SHIT. and proving me wrong involves having the player encounter black ice ALL THE FUCKING TIME, at which point it's actually less dangerous to a TM than White IC (which IC will deal icon damage only -> raw stun unresisted by biofeedback filters vs. black IC -> inflicts stun damage directly and is resisted with biofeedback).

Sprites. I still haven't figured out how to use them. Everyone keeps talking about how this is the End All, Do All of being a technomancer and why TMs kick bloody ass around on the matrix. Yet as far as I can tell they're next to useless. Not to mention that people keep going "oh a TM can switch where his strength lies," how do they do that? If it's using sprites, then there's a limited amount of versatility you have because of the time it takes to summon a sprite. Takes yet another action to Thread. Apparently this time delay is unimportant when a node goes from "la de da, business as ussual to ALERT ALERT, INTRUDER" and the TM goes, "Hmm I need a sprite. I think I have time to compile one out of the very fabric of the digital universe." Versus a hacker who goes, "BRING IT ON" and is already ready as his program pool is his program pool: they're all already loaded and waiting, waiting for the hacker to need them.

Also:

What occurs when a hacker (or a TM) doesn't have a program to do a particular task? What happens if they don't have Exploit? What do they fall back on? Is there a -1 DP penalty imposed for using skill + attribute (instead of skill + program)?

Resonance is by far more important to a TM over any other single thing on his sheet. Mages aren't limited this way, a mage with a magic of 2 is a weak mage, but still deadly. A TM with a Resonance of 2 can't do a damn thing other than check his email and there's no way to compensate! On the one hand for good reason (if there was what's the point?), OTOH it means that unless the TM is a TM on the side (and is otherwise firing a hail of bullets this way and that) and only using his TM abilities to...I don't even know what "half a technomancer" does with his powers. There's literally no point. He can't crack anything more advanced than a soycandy machine and he can't evade the all watching eye of Analyze on any node more powerful than the public library's relay switch keeping him from looking at porn trids.

You know what. I think that's the issue.

Half of a hacker has some use, whereas half a technomancer has none. Half a technomancer is so weak, so ungodly useless, that no one would bother building one (using the rest of the BP to do something else, like make him a gun fighter or a face or something). It's like paying the BP to be a troll in order to spend all your attribute BP in Charisma, Intuition, and Logic in order to be the face. Oh, and Incompetent (Firearms). Even with your boosted base strength and body you've decided that you'll be the weakest troll ever (and be no better at taking a bullet or ripping doors off their hinges than Joe Human).

That's the crux of the issue: a half-built technomancer is no use at all.

Not even to order soycaff without lifting a finger.

If your talking about the "Using Attributes" rules, without threading a couple ratings they couldn't even make the roll. Why? Because their max Hits are 0!

Book and page number.

Unwired, Page 39. Optional rule "Using Attributes". I thought that is what you were talking about since you referred to using skill + attribute.

With it, you roll for programs using Logic (most always) + skill (Cap: Program/Complex Form Rating). If the Complex Form is at 0 (they don't got it) and they don't thread any ratings in it, then they have a Cap of 0.

That can be solved by letting the player resist the Biofeedback (cus that's what it is), with biofeedback filter, rather than requiring two Complex Forms


Threading is a Non-action. You can do it as many times as you want, in less than a CT.

Compiling a Sprite is a Complex action. Swapping a program is also a complex action. A best, a Hacker is running 5 programs. So when Hacking, they might have Exploit, Stealth, Sniffer, Scan, and Biofeedback Filter loaded. When the Alert Goes off, the Techno compiles a Sprite, and the Hacker Swaps out Scan and Sniffer for Attack and Armor.

Also: spend all his downtime registering (CHARISMA) Sprites. He can then call on these sprites anytime. Sprites also last for 8 hours unregistered, so it's not like he never has them




A Hacker can't do jack.

A techno Thread the CF into existance



This is true. Half a Techno is worthless.

How do we fix this?

You should also not that I said INSTEAD OF skill + program (they don't have a program, WTF do they do? DEFAULT?)



One of our group's problems is hackers micromanaging what programs they have. And the GM micromanaging two completely unrelated combat scenes (at the same, or different times). So our hackers rarely see combat.

Anyway, what's a TM get (DP wise) for compiling a sprite to do a task he doesn't have a CF for?



And get a program at rating 2, which is essentially just as bad. Whee~ I have 8 dice!



I don't know. Every way I've thought about it, it comes back to the base way in which TM were designed: the all important Resonance attribute.

I agree that it should be a representative of a Technomancer's power (much the same way magic is to a mage), but as written it's too limiting (Resonance of 2 is completely useless).

Programs (CFs, I use the terms interchangable as the are the same thing) are already taking the place of the Logic stat in the [stat + skill] die pool system, so we can't make it the way mages cast spells.

Or can we?

Don't limit CF rating to resonance, then Resonance + CF rating -> die pool.

This means that a technomancer doesn't need to intimately aware of how computers operate or how hack is done because they "make shit up as they go" which corresponds to the fluff. "Hacking what's that? I just hit those walls with a big imaginary rock!"

*Ponders*

Hmm...there's another step or two that needs to be taken, but I'm not up to it at the moment. I can't figure out where to go from there.

Keep the limit on CFs known to Logic * 2 though, as it'll encourage "smart hackers" (vs. a real hacker having no use in logic turning them into script kiddies).

To save time during character creation, I just made CF's work like spells. You buy them for a flat rate, and then they have a base rating equal to your Resonance/Magic. That helped out a lot. I believe this is even an official optional rule somewhere.

Sprites are extremely powerful, especially if used properly. It works just like summoning and binding spirits-- in fact, the rules are interchangeable. If you're familiar with the uses and abuses of spirits, sprite tactics will feel familiar. The difference here is that you can use the sprites to cover for holes in your own skill set: for example, the otaku in my game kept a paladin sprite on hand to defend him in cybercombat. Certain other sprite abilities are hugely overpowered, such as machine sprites and Diagnostics.

Now, the problem is that sprites still don't make otaku more powerful than a comparable decker. The decker is going to be more well-rounded overall, and will tend to have higher Matrix dice pools, depending on build. You can have a *viable* Emerged character; but the only one who's equally powerful with a well-built team will be a dedicated summoner.

Running them exactly like mages would work, I suppose. Which I guess I was reaching at, but trying to maintain some semblance of uniqueness.

Anyway, as written they can be both exceedingly broken as well as completely inferior to hackers, and sometimes doing it at the same time.

I would put much of your POV down to the consequences of that experience. A character that does nothing but matrix things, while none of the involved parties knows the matrix rules... let´s say that honourable mention for trying is the best result you could hope to achieve. (And I have rejected such concepts in the past, more power to you.)



I would like to ask why you think that TMs can´t work that way.



Then tell me what you think of threading the Shield CF and an offensive CF of your choice up to 9. Since you were arguing softmaxed attributes, a defense pool of Intuition+Willpower+9 is rather satisfactory, wouldn´t you say? No extra action involved in that, just threading a bit.
Apart from the fact that TMs are pretty unlikely to end up in matrix combat.



Idea: As long as you don´t have that figured out, stop saying that TMs are underpowered. For example, compiling a sprite happens (usually) before you need it, because you know beforehand. If you know hacking. Your point is much like "mages suck because spirits are powerful". You only NEED sprites to compete with the upper crust of munched hackers. Usual dicepools of 10-16 can be given competition without.



You can only ever use one program at a time activly. There is an all-time CF rating of (whatever hits you can buy on fading) for everything.
You need Analyse, Stealth, Spoof and Exploit for hacking. Shield and one offensive utility for matrix combat. Everything else can be threaded to useful levels. Since you will be perfect at every activity based on a CF you have, you want to buy the full number - under the BP system.



It is as sane to gimp a competent mage with magic 2 as is gimping a TM with resonance 2. A mage with magic 2 is not deadly, try it with a full mage in background count. Quite a few unresisted matrix activities (Browse, Matrix Perception and even hacking a rating 3 node is possible with resonance 2. (Sourceror, rating 4 Probability Distribution service against the node for hacking; possible spoof pools go into the double digits.)

Resonance is certainly an overloaded stat, but you hardly have an argument of weakness there, because you can elect to start with a resonance you are comfortable with, and because the high end of the TM power bracket is well able to deal with any problem. Play what you want!

The thing which bugs me the most is that I see no way a TM could do the stuff they do in the fluff under the rules given for TMs. Anyone care to explain how even a gang of TMs screwed the UN in Geneva as described in Feral Cities? Are we going to assume that all the rampaging virtuakinetics were heavily submerged with maxed Resonance?

Sure Sprites are pretty pokey, but when I played a TM I commonly crippled myself with fading summoning even a low power sprite or threading a CF from 5 to 9. My legendarily poor luck is a factor, but a Hacker doesn't risk fading when they load a program. If a TM threads more than 1 CF, they effectively have to thread each at least 2 higher for each additional CF to offset the sustaining penalty.

Warning - long post

A few important things to remember about threading (both of which have been mentioned in this thread but the TMs-are-crap crowd keep missing)

1) Threading is not an action - not even a free one, its part of using the complexform for example:
I get attacked by a hacker I somehow didnt notice - as he attacks I thread armour and then after the defense roll immediatly drop it so the -2 sustaining penalty doesnt apply to anything because the penalty doesnt apply to rolls that use the CF thats been boosted. Assuming the attack hits I then thread Shield straightaway to boost the soak and again drop the Cf as soon as I've rolled the dice.

2) A TM can have all his CF's running at the same time - the core book states that there is no limit to the number that can be run at once as opposed to the hackers 5, even if you only drop a few karma into rating 1-2 cf's and then thread them as needed it saves on complex actions (and if i were a security hacker I'd wait until my target had just spent a couple of actions unloading attack and armour to load edit and spoof/command to mess around with the security cameras.).

3) Program options - sure a hacker can always code up a rating 7 program and never have to worry about fading - but can he add the wonderful options from Unwired on the fly - especially when he's likely got optimization and ergonomic on them already, attack programs suddenly being upgraded to Black/psychottropic why thank you, or how about area effect data bombs with pavlov?

4) Threaded program ratings over your resonance cause physical damage - this is useful when you've clocked up a couple of stun boxes and want to avoid dp penalties but thin that you could reduce any damage to 1 or 2 boxes (similar to a trick many mages use for overcasting)
[/list]

Now for some general points:

Resonace 6(5) - ie taking a hit for some 'ware, a resonance 5 TM has the samelimitations as a starting hacker in terms of numbers for responce/system and program ratings, so if we're trying to build a TM that can keep up with hackers out of the box what can we get for that 1 essence? My personal choice has been mentioned a few times but I'll list em again:

Datajack - sometimes its really useful to have a memory store that isnt your underwear
Math SPU - +2 to encryption/decryption and any maths test useful but not essential
PuSHeD - +1 to logic linked skills, note that doesnt mean rolls with logic+skill that means any skill from the BRB under the Logic heading whjich is to say pretty much all the ones we care about
Nanohive (normally in a cyber hand) [2] - with the following nanites:
Learning Stimulus [3] - to save Karma
Neo-Cortical [3] - a further +3 to logic linked skills[/link]
Cerebral Booster [1-2* see below] - +2 Logic - useful for all thse technical skills and also helpful fo upping your system rating once your resonance goes beyond 6.
Trauma Dampner - reduce fading by one box, which is normally all you'll be taking anyway

The last thing is Platelet factories instead of the second level of Cerebral booster - depending on the build aTM more focused on cybercombat and who wants to actually do something in the meat should take this.

This comes out with a hefty +4 bonus to all the hacking dicepools (not compiling/registering though) including threading a further +2 for encryption/decryption, some damage mitigation and some long term growth potential by replacing the rating 2 nanohive with a rating 3+ for extra nanite godness (which you can always hack to change their functionality- or take wildcard nanites)
Note i havent included anyof the usual hacker 'ware such as the encephalon, simsense booster or control rig because a TM can either get the same bonus from else where or the bonus isnt worth it in terms of essence (money should never be an issue with TM's)



Echoes - even more so than mages metamagics these really define the role a TM plans to fufill

* Untracable assassin - take Resonance trodes and black hammer people with a touch of your hand or better yet reprogram them with Psychotropics.
* Subtle infilitrator consider blur and swap,
* One man army - sprite link for extra options.
* Meat world options biowires (a skill wire system with a rating that can go over 5 - nice) and mesh reality (no more VR coma) and acceleration


Sprites - finnaly sprites, some consider them overpowered some think their useless, I come somewhere in the middle - their only as usefull as you make them and unlike with spirits a low-ish rating sprite is still quite useful to have around. Sprite options include the oft mentioned boosting a cf for a short period, and sustaining a threaded CF, however theres quite a few more tricks but one important one is that the spirte is not limited by the hosts system/response rating

In summary a TM is on par with a hacker in terms of utility (which is all that matters) sure a starting hacker can have a few more dice - about 2 on your major pools and 4-6 on others if you dont thread, and a hacker will almost certainly be more effective in the meat world.

Now here is where i divert from the main stance of TM supporters - A TM's greatest assest is flexability, sure you can focus on one or two aspects/actions in the matrix and be an absolute god there and a middling power elsewhere but by willing to accpet that the hacker will roll a few more dice you can have the ability ot do anything at anytime,


Remember the average device rating is only 3.

As a TM, you scale your abilities to the challenge at hand. Besides your basic skill/CFs/paragon, which are always-on, you get Threading and Assist Operation services, and sprite powers.

You can not have all CF´s (call it protection from your own, munchy self), but you can replace unimportant CFs with threading. Now you can have all you want (because buying things you don´t need is inefficient, even if you can do it).

"TM-rating 4"

• Mental Stats: 4 (not required, fading stat would be enough)
• Cracking Group 4, Software 4, Compiling/Registering 4
• Resonance 4, Analyse/Stealth/Exploit/Spoof/Shield/Attack 4
• Paragon: Black Hat (going for hacking, there are quite a few other interesting alternatives)
  
  Hacking capability: 10 dice / 12 dice in VR, but a stealth of only rating 4. Enough for user access on weak nodes.

Threading

• Said TM threads Stealth for +2, and Exploit for +2 to compensate for the dp penalty.
  
  Effective dp change: none, Stealth is at +2 = 6.

Assist Operation Service

• A single action to call the service, some prep time to actually have a registered sprite.
• It will be rating 3 registered sprites as a minimum (rating 4 if time is no concern, I´m going with r4 due to the "TM-rating").
  
  Invest one service: Get Stealth to 4+2+4=10, make another hacking test for an effective +12 dp / 24 dice total (VR)
  Invest two services (you won´t be hacking that IP anyway): Get Stealth to 10, Exploit to 10 [effective 8], make two hacking tests, dp 16 each / 32 dice total (VR)

Other Sprite Powers

• Compiling a sprite rating 6 might give this TM fading damage, but an amount that can likely be healed with first aid. Do it before the run starts.
  
  Find a power you like, use it. A R4 TM would want to have Code sprites (Probability Distribution, 12 dice against Response/2, for a +- 3 dp mod, you choose the side...)

Summary
It requires preparation and a bit of luck for a "TM-rating 4" TM to take admin on a rating 6 node that is running analyse. Once on the node, chances of detection are equal to that of a hacker with r6 stealth, but the hacker will have (2+ hacking augmentations) more dice. Unless you reconfigure your threading/use assist operation/use a sprite power.

Edit: Posted while Ustio was posting, too.

This is something, strangely enough, that has come up in our game 3 times already. Heck, just the last game, we assassinated someone in a room full of 18 other people, and they assumed it was a drug overdose. My poor little TM has become an assassin... It has less-lethal applications as well, like a great way to get someone to sleep when you don't want to risk any overflow damage (like a powerful stunball or stim patches can do), and a wonderful way to interogate someone - zap 'em into a really, really scary VR environment, and they can't escape. Heck, just pulling someone into VR and then letting them go gives them dumpshock. Also it's a non-noticible way to communicate completely privately with team members - a quick touch of the hand, or an under-the-table bit of footsie, and you can communicate without your Mr. Johnson (or anyone else) noticing or overhearing. It also works great when a bad guy tries to grab you for a fate worse than death (or really, in melee combat - Touch Only attacks get a +2, y'know).

(can you tell we use Resonance Trodes in our game a lot?)

Rules question: You draw them into the VR, so they would end up in your living node, yes? What if they have a DNI connection to an (internal) commlink? Can they use their programs on your living persona (for what little worth that might have)?

I will admit that my experiences flavor my point of view.

But don't yours?



What? I never said "can't work" anywhere in that paragraph.



So the TM pays (5 * 10 * 3 = 150) 150 BP to have the maximum dice to the defense roll while a hacker pays, what 15,000? Which equates to 3 BP. Even if we assume that rating 5 system/firewall/responce is 10 times as expensive, that's still 30 BP to 150.

Also, I asked what a hacker does. What does a hack do if he doesn't have a program. Technomancers can fake it, yes, but there is still a roll you can roll (or a rule that says there's no roll).



That's like saying that mages NEED spirits in order to compete with a gunfighter. No they don't. I've seen plenty of mage builds that are extrememly effective without having any bound (or loose) spirits.

All you're arguing is "there is one exact perfect optimal TM build that everyone builds and any deviations are loss in power." Which is completely counter productive to having choices about character creation. If I decide to build a TM that doesn't bother with spites I've gimped myself so hard the character is infertile.

Or if I decide not to get my Stealth CF up to max rating.

Or...



More BP dumping in order to be competent.
1 rating 5 CF -> 5 Bp.
1 rating 5 program -> $2500 -> 1 BP
Thus a CF must be 5 times as awesome as a program. But it isn't. It's about twice as awesome only because the TM needs half as many of them.



A mage with 2 magic and 6 spellcasting still has 8 dice towards a whole host of things (average 2-3 success on a force 2 spell--say....Invisibility?). Not to mention 4 counterspelling (how would the entire party like to double or better their willpower stat?)



It is a weakness because of the BP. We've overloaded the special stat, we've required (see your first point) 3 other mental stats to be soft-capped. We need Logic around 3 or so to have enough CFs to cover every thing. A hacker can get by with 1s in every attribute and spend 400 BP on things that make them awesome and sexy.

In other words, compared to a hacker a TM is a guy who slows down matrix combat because he has to roll dice twice as often in order to be just as good, while at the same time being a complete BP and Karma sinkhole.

Force 2 invisibility spell = max. 2 hits, therefore absolutely likely zero net hits. Targets get to resist with intuition or willpower+counterspelling.

As for the power comparison, threading is enough to pull even with hackers, and then it´s not more dicerolling. Sprites are very cool, and you should use them.

How is threading not more dice rolling?

You have to roll for threading.

And point, invisibility was a bad choice. I'm not exactly up on the list of spells. I can however say that an Adept with 2 magic is still quite useful (throw all of it into armor: that's +4/+4 armor which you can't sneeze at).

No, it's +2/+2 Armor. Max Ranks in Adept Powers are Capped at magic. And now you have a combat character with less bonus dice that 10 BP worth of Cyberware can use.

Well, I would buy 3 hits for threading and fading, and call it done. Or buy 2 on each and call it done. The specific dicepool will only matter in a very few cases - IF your group adheres to the device rating table. Which I would strongly suggest. (Alternativly, see the Analyse=+2 for defense against hacking suggestion.)


(I also wish to add that I hope that you didn´t take my comment regarding your experiences as personal attack. I just remembered that your experience with one of the TM players was less-than-perfect, from a gaming POV. Are we good?)

Touche, I hadn't realized that ranks were limited by magic (doesn't effect the character I have who started with 4 magic and no more than 2 ranks in any given power.

Anyway, yes, cyberware can be less expensive than the magical variant (see Improved Reflexes--throw money at the problem and you can get Imp Ref 2 for less than 1.5 essence, which is 1.5 magic vs. 2 magic the adept power costs), but in some cases you can't use the cyberware (any playable HMHVV infected, drakes, and shapshifters).

Anyway, you haven't countered the base point that a weak mage is still useful while a weak technomancer isn't.

Hm. That's a great question, and one that hasn't come up in our game. Since if someone had a commlink with a DNI connection it's likely my TM would just hack the commlink and that'd be that.

I'd say, rules wise, that using Resonance Trodes would be just like hooking up a set of trodes on a person and linking them to a different commlink (in this case, the technomancer's living node). With the idea being that you can only have your brain in hot-sim/VR with one connection at a time (you cannot use two sets of trodes). They can switch back and forth, between trodes and an internal commlink, but not access both at the same time.

Remember the technomancer isn't hacking the person's internal commlink, but hacking the person's "brain" directly -- like if someone ran up to the person and slapped on some trodes and hooked them up to a hot-sim commlink (not their own). If you had an internal commlink, but someone forced some trodes on you and linked them to a different commlink, you couldn't use your own programs stored in your own commlink.

The Resonance Trodes prevent the person from accessing their own commlink (internal or external). A successful Opposed Test, by the rules, means the TM has overwhelmed the person and rendering them incapable of "switching" to their own commlink (or pulling out of VR/AR). (Hence the reason for the Opposed Test.)

Now, in our game, we have stated that another TM could use their complex forms when accessing the Resonance via Resonance Trodes. In fact, we've had two technomancers go into the deep resonance on a quest together. Fun times.

I have demonstrated the ability of resonance 4 technomancers to take well-defended rating 6 nodes. I don´t think that resonance 2 would permit you to surpass high-end agents in power. Both mage and TM can still be usefull in specific situations (levitate comes to mind, any movement is better than no movement in case of heavy loot), but both will often not even be able to perform (Background Count 2 / military installation rating 7 Nexus). A whole 21 karma for magic/resonance 4... who wouldn´t?

Is it true, or is it not true, that a poorly built technomancer has more problems than a (poorly built anything else)?

It seems to me that there is Only One technomancer build, whereas every other character has multitudes of options. Sure, some compromize effectiveness for interesting, flavor, or fun, but even in helpings of three or four they aren't detrimental ("I'll trade 14 dice for 12 dice in order to fit my backstory" vs. "I'll trade 14 dice for 12 dice for...you know, I'm not honestly sure, but that's what the rules say").

That 21 karma thing is assuming your using the Karma build, right? I am still only using BP, so its a different world for me. If only I wanst at work and could remember how different

I thought that trodes had to be placed on the head.

Trodes do. In my opinion, Resonance Trodes are different. They simply require a touch. The technomancer is using the target's bioelectric field (read the Skinlink echo, which is the prerequisite to Resonance Trodes). If it had to be placed on the head, the description would state so (instead of saying it requires a touch-based unarmed attack). Note that when this was originally written, the first description used "his hands" rather than "his touch" in the description. We changed it for obvious reasons (like, what if you have no hands? Can't you kick someone and 'trode them that way? Although some freelancers made the obvious jokes you'd expect from a roomful of guys... ). I'd also say that since bioelectric fields extend slightly beyond the skin, and clothing does not interfere with the use of skinlinked devices, that a technomancer can use Resonance Trodes on someone even through light clothing. [In our game, we don't allow it through armor or heavy clothing]

Almost true, poorly build hackers have the same problems, but can correct them on the cheap. I think it´s a matrix rules thing.

There are tons of possible TM builds - more so if you use the karma system. Munching a TM with 400 BP is a bit complex, but getting one that will work is pretty easy. The question is not "how many dice would a munched hacker have", but "how many dice do you need?"

Any problems are caused by TMs being on an exponential power scale. The instinctive min/maxing is counterproductive if you increase your matrix power beyond what you can use. And it is absolutely possible to walk out of 400 BP chargen with the ability to take any rating 6 node.

a problem I see in TM builds is, that you can hardly explain, why the character only has matrix skills, because a TM can only be a technomancing since the Crash and there must be something he was doing before and it is unlikely, that he has forgotten everything of his non technomancing live. There a some little exeptions here: 1. a otaku-technomancer who survived the crash an didn't burn out, but fluffwise these are rare. 2. your TM is a teen and so 6years ago he was something like 12 years old.

my own TM is above 30 and he was a coroner (in Fort Lewis' CID), before he "awakened". So I gave him good medical skills, which leads to a lack of BPs, therefore he started with 1 in the cracking group. So if you try to build a TM with a proper background story and skills, there are much to less BP.

cya
Tycho

If you min/max without shame, a 400 BP TM can start with a "karmic worth" of about 700. With max. positive and no negative qualities. The problem is not "can´t afford", the problem is "greedy bastard". (And I certainly understand, I prefer the karma system because it pacifies my efficiency-minded self.)

Going with resonance 5 (maxed CFs) instead of resonance 6 (maxed CFs) gains you 37 BP or 90 karma. That can buy 2 or 6 attributes from 1->3. Only one is likely to happen without perceived need.
The deduction that you need to min/max TMs is still wrong, because TMs can mechanically work from resonance 4 upwards. (Maybe even resonance 3 for street campaigns, but I lack experience with that kind of game.) If you go with lower resonance/CFs/skills, you have enough points for other stuff.

Do you have a ref. to say that threading a CF can be done reflexively without taking any action?

I read my BBB and Unwired quite carefully the other night and found no reference to this interpretation. It doesn't state that threading takes an action, but nor does it state that it can be done in response to an attack to generate a protective program for that roll only. Even then you have to cope with the Fading, requiring further investment of BPs (or karma if you're that way inclined) to max your Fading pool, and adding significantly more rolls to your game.

From the FAQ:

Dissonance.

One non-submerged dissonant specialized in compiling with a couple meltdown sprites could Surge (damage to the DEVICE, not matrix condition monitor) a node into absolute non-functionality in a few seconds or less. Which of course is pointless on Joe Average's commlink, but if you target infrastructure and major physical matrix chokepoints, you can cause a lot of damage real fast. Consider the potential for just three dissonants working together, one hacking, one frying nodes, and one running cybercombat overwatch.

It wasn't just the TM's causing damage on their lonesome, either - rioting caused by loss of infrastructure, pro-emerged groups, viruses, and feral AI's either drawn to or intentionally released in the shattered Geneva grid. Ex-Pacis and Winternight managed to take down the whole WORLD'S matrix - the issue is not that it is impossible to cause this much damage: it is in fact very very easy if you're smart - but that, when it happens, you need a way to capitalize on it, because nobody smart enough to cause that much damage would let the opportunities that arise from it go to waste.

Run idea:
Assume you have an agile runner team. They get an urgent message from one of their sources that the security nodes of corp X in Seattle will be down for at least one hour, or until rebooted manually by an admin. Most of the admins are supposed to be dead.
No planning - drive home, choose gear, select best available target, go. Fence goods without being caught.

also, dissonant technomancers can cheat. they get to make dissonance pools (or wells, or whatever they call them) from one of their echoes which means that even crappy dissonant technomancers can do some scary stuff if there is even a single powerful dissonant TM around to prepare an area.