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crash2029
I'm a second-generation gamer and I could not really envision a world without pen and paper RPG's. I'm such a gamer nerd that whenever I go into a store that even remotely might sell RPG's I make a beeline for that section. Although it does not help that the closest thing I have to a FLGS is a Hastings 20 miles away.

I'm not sure this post has a point except that I am a diehard RPG fan, and I have been awake for far too long.
Draco18s
This flash of insight might not be practical, but I thought I'd share:

Anyone ever thought of getting a group together and playing at the Borders Cafe?

My group would never manage to be quiet enough, but I bet it's possible.
Wesley Street
As long as you weren't raucous, I'd imagine Borders would actually encourage that. Especially if you're playing a game the store sells (mine sells the core SR4 book). You could also check with the manager to see if you could have regularly scheduled "game days". The more people there are in the store, the more likely they are to buy something.
Draco18s
That's pretty much what I thought, I just don't know how easy it would be for most gamers to be quiet enough. wink.gif
BlueMax
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 2 2009, 06:51 AM) *
That's pretty much what I thought, I just don't know how easy it would be for most gamers to be quiet enough. wink.gif

Not to mention the language issue.
Now if only there as a great mass market game with distinct lingo.
InfinityzeN
Frag that drek for brains, I'm not cleaning my language up for any of these slot heads. biggrin.gif grinbig.gif
kzt
QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Mar 2 2009, 07:29 AM) *
The grand-daddy of them all is going to just up and quit? ohplease.gif I doubt it.

Who are they owned by these days? The drawback of being owned by real companies that pay real salaries is they expect real sales and profits. IS D&D meeting the sales and profits targets? Is it helping the execs meet the target for a bonus? How about increase the stock price? Is it at least paying it's overhead? If not it's GONE. Maybe they sell it, probably they want an absurd amount and it dies.
InfinityzeN
*POOF!* Yea, no more D&D! *Does a happy dance*

Seriously though, I never much liked D&D, but it has been around for ever, it is the most common starting point for role players, and in Iraq it was the system we played since it was very quick and easy, with no need for any complex story and plot crap.
JoelHalpern
Actually, the Borders bookstore I frequent often has the problem of all the seats (in the cafe and the rest of the bookstore) being full. I am not at all sure they would appreciate a bunch of gamers taking up 2 tables for 4 hours.

Joel
Draco18s
QUOTE (JoelHalpern @ Mar 2 2009, 12:03 PM) *
Actually, the Borders bookstore I frequent often has the problem of all the seats (in the cafe and the rest of the bookstore) being full. I am not at all sure they would appreciate a bunch of gamers taking up 2 tables for 4 hours.


Ask. Worst case scenario they say no.

For more challenge walk up to the cashier and ask them were the store is (i.e. if the store is on Market and 13th, walk in and ask "where's the Borders on Market and 13th?"). There's a story about a guy who it took him four hours to work up the courage to ask (it was a 7-11 somewhere). "You're in it, dude."
BlueMax
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 2 2009, 09:28 AM) *
Ask. Worst case scenario they say no.

For more challenge walk up to the cashier and ask them were the store is (i.e. if the store is on Market and 13th, walk in and ask "where's the Borders on Market and 13th?"). There's a story about a guy who it took him four hours to work up the courage to ask (it was a 7-11 somewhere). "You're in it, dude."

When I was a kid the local Denny's had a sign "No Games". We used to love to walk in stand for server, wait for them to seat us and say
"Ohh, No games. I guess your empty business will have to stay empty." They stuck to their guns and we stuck to ours. I still game, they went out of business.
It was actually Chess players that triggered the ban, paying, high tipping chess players. Frag the owner.

Yes, I wasn't the nicest teenager.

BlueMax
/First they came for the chess players and you did nothing.

Wesley Street
QUOTE (kzt @ Mar 2 2009, 11:44 AM) *
Who are they owned by these days? The drawback of being owned by real companies that pay real salaries is they expect real sales and profits. IS D&D meeting the sales and profits targets? Is it helping the execs meet the target for a bonus? How about increase the stock price? Is it at least paying it's overhead? If not it's GONE. Maybe they sell it, probably they want an absurd amount and it dies.

If the answer to all your hypothetical questions are "no" then WotC sells the D&D RPG IP to another publisher. Or they scale back what they release (and frankly they've been pumping out a lot of content, too much of it peripheral and unnecessary [is there that big of a demand for a Big Book of the Undead?]). But ceasing production all together? No. No way.

At any rate no one is showing any numbers to prove this is even the case. All I'm seeing is rabid speculation.
Thadeus Bearpaw
QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Mar 2 2009, 11:56 AM) *
If the answer to all your hypothetical questions are "no" then WotC sells the D&D RPG IP to another publisher. Or they scale back what they release (and frankly they've been pumping out a lot of content, too much of it peripheral and unnecessary [is there that big of a demand for a Big Book of the Undead?]). But ceasing production all together? No. No way.

At any rate no one is showing any numbers to prove this is even the case. All I'm seeing is rabid speculation.


I agree with Wesley, from whence do these numbers come? I checked Hasbro stock divedends and they were doing better than alot of companies are with the recent downslide. WotC's a subsidiary of Hasbro and D&D is a division of WotC so where does this speculation start? I'm not a huge D&D fan but according to some probably very unofficial numbers (one of which includes my FLGS) D&D outsells any other RPG by a signifigant amount.
toetag
QUOTE (TheForgotten @ Mar 1 2009, 11:40 PM) *
D&D is unlikely to continue in publication past Q4, 2009. Sales of 4th edition have been horrible.


Do you have any evidence for this or reasons why you think this will happen?
kzt
QUOTE (Thadeus Bearpaw @ Mar 2 2009, 11:31 AM) *
I agree with Wesley, from whence do these numbers come? I checked Hasbro stock divedends and they were doing better than alot of companies are with the recent downslide. WotC's a subsidiary of Hasbro and D&D is a division of WotC so where does this speculation start? I'm not a huge D&D fan but according to some probably very unofficial numbers (one of which includes my FLGS) D&D outsells any other RPG by a signifigant amount.

Rumors I've heard from industry sources is that Hasbro is really hard nosed about numbers (in fairly arbitrary ways) and has no emotional attachment to RPGs. If a product line stops producing there are other clever ideas out there needing funding. As long as they meet the sales projections everything is good.
Wesley Street
From ICv2's Top Fall 2008 RPGs.
QUOTE
Top 5 Roleplaying Games
1 Dungeons and Dragons - Wizards of the Coast
2 Warhammer 40K: Dark Heresy - Fantasy Flight Games
3 World of Darkness - White Wolf
4 Shadowrun - Catalyst Lab Games
5 Pathfinder - Paizo Publishing


And a year before that... from therpgsite.com. Top October 2007 games.
QUOTE
Average UNIT SALES for retailers' best-selling ROLE-PLAYING GAMES

All units are measured in PIECES sold; each boxed set, adventure, and sourcebook counts as one.

Product Line Manufacturer raw# UP!/dwn wtd. turnout
1 Dungeons & Dragons Wizards of the Coast 18.0 18.0 91%
2 World of Darkness White Wolf 11.1 UP! 11.5 64%
3 Iron Kingdoms Privateer Press 6.2 6.5 16%
4 Shadowrun Fantasy Productions 5.5 5.8 17%
5 Spycraft Mongoose 5.4 UP! 5.4 8%

6 Star Wars d20 Wizards of the Coast 4.5 UP! 4.8 18%
7 Warhammer FRP Black Industries 3.9 UP! 4.1 16%
8 d20 Modern Wizards of the Coast 3.5 UP! 3.6 17%
9 GURPS Steve Jackson 3.2 3.3 20%
10 Serenity MWP 1.7 UP! 1.7 7%

11 Rifts Palladium 1.2 UP! 1.2 8%
12 Savage Worlds Pinnacle 0.7 0.7 8%
13 Exalted White Wolf 0.6 0.7 20%
14 Game Mastery Paizo 0.5 UP! 0.5 20%
15 Legend of the Five Rings Alderac 0.5 0.5 9%

16 Hero System 6th Edition Hero 0.4 UP! 0.4 19%
17 Castles & Crusades Troll Lord 0.4 0.4 9%
18 Dungeon Crawl Classics Goodman Games 0.4 dwn 0.4 9%
19 Mutants & Masterminds Green Ronin 0.3 0.3 17%
20 Burning Wheel Key 20 Publishing 0.3 0.3 11%

MANUFACTURERS PIECE SHARE of retailers' best-selling ROLE-PLAYING GAMES
The average store reporting unit shares to us sold at least 69 copies (71, weighted) of its Top 12 role-playing games. (Last month, the Top 12 role-playing games accounted for 56 copies.) For just those top games (not the whole market), these manufacturers accounted for the most weighted unit sales:

1 Wizards of the Coast.... 37.20%
2 White Wolf .......17.53%
3 Privateer Press ........ 9.09%
4 Alderac ........... 8.20%
5 Fantasy Productions .... 8.18%
6 Black Industries ........ 5.78%
7 Steve Jackson ........... 4.70%
8 MWP ............ 2.43%
9 Palladium ........ 1.67%
Other...........7.22%

Chart Chat> The release of Spycraft 2.0 from Mongoose has pushed the game up the chart to reach the #5 spot in just a few months. Likewise, the news that there will be additional Serenity products forthcoming in 2008 has given that game a boost.


Whatever charts you go by, D&D represents 1/3rd of the RPG market. And unless sales have taken a gigantic tumble in the last year or so and no one has reported it I think it's doing okay.
kzt
QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Mar 2 2009, 12:20 PM) *
Whatever charts you go by, D&D represents 1/3rd of the RPG market. And unless sales have taken a gigantic tumble in the last year or so and no one has reported it I think it's doing okay.

The critical element that you are missing is that Hasbro isn't an RPG company. Hasbro in in the toy business. They evaluate all their product lines against the standards of the toy industry. Where does D&D 4 rank compared to toy sales?
Freejack
I was a little puzzled. FanPro sold 5.5 units and it's up?? Then I read the link. The number is an average of 5.5 units per FLGS. That makes a little better sense smile.gif Heck, I bought that much by myself at my FLGS biggrin.gif

Carl
Zen Shooter01
kzt, on what basis do you make the claim that Hasbro evaluates all sales against toy sales? I find it hard to believe that Hasbro is so dumb as to compare RPGs to GI Joes. It's two different endeavors. I find it hard to believe that Hasbro is so dumb as to say, "Our RPG product dominates the industry like an 800 pound gorilla. Clearly, it's time to shut it down."

I definitely agree that a lot of their new product ideas are really, really dumb. Draconomicon I: Chromatic Dragons, $40 US. How many dragons are there in a given campaign? And how much more information do I need after the dragon entries in the Monster Manual? Same thing for the new undead catalogue. Who's buying these books?
kzt
I have been told this by well connected people. Hasbro bought WoTC for Magic, that was a significant product. D&D was just a part that came along. Every division has to pull it's own weight. Transformers made them $480 million last year. How much did D&D?

The credo of the modern business executive is make the month, make the quarter, make the year. How you do it is much less important than doing it. The traditional stereotype of the "suit" isn't a creation from whole cloth.
Draco18s
D&D will survive through 3.5, not 4th. That or Pathfinder (OH WAIT, that's 3rd party).

If they want to have good sales they need to realize that 4th edition is not what the auld hat players wanted, but a way to get the younger, less intelligent, MMO minded kids into the game (no offense to anyone who likes the system--it just doesn't work for our group, if I wanted to play Pokemon I'd go pick up a copy of Ruby or something).
BlueMax
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 2 2009, 02:25 PM) *
D&D will survive through 3.5, not 4th. That or Pathfinder (OH WAIT, that's 3rd party).

If they want to have good sales they need to realize that 4th edition is not what the auld hat players wanted, but a way to get the younger, less intelligent, MMO minded kids into the game (no offense to anyone who likes the system--it just doesn't work for our group, if I wanted to play Pokemon I'd go pick up a copy of Ruby or something).


Do you have to lump MMO kids into such a negative pit? I find some of them very intelligent.

I would love to contribute to this rampant speculation but I don't even have a good diving board from which to begin.
cryptoknight
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 2 2009, 04:25 PM) *
D&D will survive through 3.5, not 4th. That or Pathfinder (OH WAIT, that's 3rd party).

If they want to have good sales they need to realize that 4th edition is not what the auld hat players wanted, but a way to get the younger, less intelligent, MMO minded kids into the game (no offense to anyone who likes the system--it just doesn't work for our group, if I wanted to play Pokemon I'd go pick up a copy of Ruby or something).



Sorry but the Old players want 2nd Edition AD&D or even 1st Edition AD&D back... you can keep your feats and 15 class characters thank you very much.

With that said, I like 4th edition... there are some things I miss (like having characters with really good skills), but aside from that... 4th ed is pretty cool when you stop trying to compare it to prior editions.
BlueMax
QUOTE (cryptoknight @ Mar 2 2009, 02:44 PM) *
With that said, I like 4th edition... there are some things I miss (like having characters with really good skills), but aside from that... 4th ed is pretty cool when you stop trying to compare it to prior editions.


I am sorry, but out of context it sounds like you are referring to Shadowrun.

Now, my cubemates are wondering what the heck is so funny.
Zen Shooter01
KZT: "Well connected people"? All right then. I'll believe it.
Draco18s
QUOTE (BlueMax @ Mar 2 2009, 05:35 PM) *
Do you have to lump MMO kids into such a negative pit? I find some of them very intelligent.

I would love to contribute to this rampant speculation but I don't even have a good diving board from which to begin.


I have yet to meet some. As one of my friends put it (standing in a room where there were more laptops than people, and most of them running WoW and/or EVE), "I don't mind MMOs. It people dumber, and therefore it raises my desirability for a job, because I don't play."

QUOTE (cryptoknight @ Mar 2 2009, 05:44 PM) *
Sorry but the Old players want 2nd Edition AD&D or even 1st Edition AD&D back... you can keep your feats and 15 class characters thank you very much.


Fair enough. I haven't played any 1st or 2nd edition, but I've heard good stories about 1st edition from a friend of mine (we're trying to pressure him into running a game).

Anyway, my point was, I wish that they'd fixed the problems that 3.5 had, rather than starting from scratch. I don't have a problem with fighters having daily powers and such like that, but there's no contextual reason why they can only be done once. Per encounter makes sense (you trip a guy, everyone learns to stay away from your feet). Also, Wizards have always run out of power (and now they can Magic Missile all day, forever) and Driuds--who were never shapeshifters--are weirdo shapeshifters as their "this is what I do" thing.
Thadeus Bearpaw
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 2 2009, 05:21 PM) *
I have yet to meet some. As one of my friends put it (standing in a room where there were more laptops than people, and most of them running WoW and/or EVE), "I don't mind MMOs. It people dumber, and therefore it raises my desirability for a job, because I don't play."

Fair enough. I haven't played any 1st or 2nd edition, but I've heard good stories about 1st edition from a friend of mine (we're trying to pressure him into running a game).

Anyway, my point was, I wish that they'd fixed the problems that 3.5 had, rather than starting from scratch. I don't have a problem with fighters having daily powers and such like that, but there's no contextual reason why they can only be done once. Per encounter makes sense (you trip a guy, everyone learns to stay away from your feet). Also, Wizards have always run out of power (and now they can Magic Missile all day, forever) and Driuds--who were never shapeshifters--are weirdo shapeshifters as their "this is what I do" thing.


I think the issue with the decline of 4th edition is that there's more and more quality opponents entering the field and RPGs are one of those things wherein the older games are still viable and useful games. When I was younger (early 90s) the only games of which I was aware was Warhammer 40k and D&D. I know now that there were dozens of other games at the time but those were common enough for me to have heard of them. With the ensuing game RPGs have increased as a hobby and we have more games, more game equals a better qualia of material to judge them by. Having now read near a dozen games, I would never again play D&D. But either way it took years for me to amass the information to realize exactly how big and indepth the field was.
MMOs do for RPGs what comic book movies have done for comic books. you can read hundreds of comic books and have years of indepth story telling or watch the movie and just get a gist of what's going on. But partly because of the deal with MMOs I think you're seeing alot more people that find RPGs to be an acceptable and interesting practice. D&D is the most accesible, it's easy to learn, easy to play and everyone and their dog has played it. But that doesn't mean the quality or caliber of other game systems has declined, it certainly doesn't mean sales have declined. Indeed the games that I've discovered last two years (Shadworun 4th ed, Cthulhutech, Dark Heresy) have all be fantastic games that i've greatly enjoyed.
Demonseed Elite
I have trouble finding any credibility in any argument that paints MMO players with a broad brush. After all, I'm one of Shadowrun's writers and I've been an MMO player since Ultima Online. UO, Dark Age of Camelot (where I was part of Mythic's player/tester program), Anarchy Online, City of Heroes, EVE, World of Warcraft, and now Warhammer Online.

Try not to make such ignorant statements when trying to claim the ignorance of others.
kzt
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01 @ Mar 2 2009, 04:15 PM) *
KZT: "Well connected people"? All right then. I'll believe it.

Sorry, don't have permission to name names.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Mar 2 2009, 07:10 PM) *
I have trouble finding any credibility in any argument that paints MMO players with a broad brush.


I'll admit that they come in all types, but I've seen little evidence to it.
I mean, there's a guy out there who decided to solo a 40 man level 60 raid. That's 40 computers, running 40 accounts, all leveled to 60 4 at a time, then hooks all his inputs to 1 keyboard and macro-scripts them together.
The guy had to be rich and unemployed.
Demonseed Elite
Yes, but that is so ridiculously far from the norm. If that's your standard, I guess all Shadowrun players are deranged elven lingerie thieves.
hobgoblin
freakin posers...
TheForgotten
QUOTE (toturi @ Mar 2 2009, 07:46 AM) *
Dark Heresy targets the large pool of Warhammer gamers and cannibalises mostly the existing Warhammer gamer groups. And mini gaming is much more expensive than RPGing.


Prince August Molds

There are some options, at least for fantasy/historical as long as you do not have to have "official" minis.
TheForgotten
QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Mar 2 2009, 07:20 PM) *
From ICv2's Top Fall 2008 RPGs.


And a year before that... from therpgsite.com. Top October 2007 games.


Whatever charts you go by, D&D represents 1/3rd of the RPG market. And unless sales have taken a gigantic tumble in the last year or so and no one has reported it I think it's doing okay.


D&D 4th Edition was released in Q3 2008. A good question would be how many of these sales are either players handbook or "Core Books" (DMG, Monster Manual) and how many are follow on sales. If everyone in gaming decided to go buy your basic book to see what you've done with the game, you're going to get good sales. Question is will they be sustainable to other products the way D&D 3.5 was.

Everything I'm seeing locally seems to indicate that sales outside the three core books have fallen off a cliff.
HappyDaze
QUOTE
Driuds--who were never shapeshifters--are weirdo shapeshifters as their "this is what I do" thing.

D&D Druids have been shapeshifters as far back as AD&D (1st edition), so the 'never' really makes that statement looks uninformed.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 2 2009, 06:21 PM) *
I don't have a problem with fighters having daily powers and such like that, but there's no contextual reason why they can only be done once.

I don't know what kind of crazy changes they had in 3 and now 4 (I'm one of those people who wants AD&D 2nd edition or earlier back), but my take is that you're asking a game steeped far more in the tactical miniatures wargaming tradition why it isn't more simulationist. Verisimilitude simply wasn't high on the list of priorities (see also: classes, levels, HP, alignment).

And yes, Druids have been 'shifters for as long as I can remember.

~J
Draco18s
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Mar 2 2009, 09:57 PM) *
D&D Druids have been shapeshifters as far back as AD&D (1st edition), so the 'never' really makes that statement looks uninformed.


My data, as it were, comes from a friend who recently graduated from my university (ok, partial truth: I graduated already too) who had been going there since 1991, or so. While Druids have always been able to take on animal forms it wasn't what they were, it was a perk of being something else. 4E Druids are not forest guardians. IIRC they're not even going to have divine magic (well, "power trees" are all fluff now, it doesn't matter what the fluff says your power comes from, everyone gets it).

And sorcerers have been written out entirely (it's actually impossible to fit a sorcerer into D&D 4; what are you going to do, let them have a choice of only 3 powers instead of 4 (choose 2 instead of 1?), but they can cast any of them at any time? How is this not blatantly BETTER than a wizard?)
BlueMax
Hey lads, we have other 4th ed threads. Again, see who is designing those MMOs and then look at who designed paper RPGs....

BlueMax
/put his cart before his horses
//how do you go down a steep hill buddy?
Adarael
QUOTE
Again, see who is designing those MMOs and then look at who designed paper RPGs....


Uh... the same people?

Seriously. Arena.net, who make Guild Wars, employs several friends of mine. They include:
-The old line editor for Legend of the 5 Rings - who also wrote many of the splats, many books for 7th Sea , and who is author of many Dragonlance novels.
-An author of a decent chunk of Changeling: The Dreaming material.
-A general writer of D&D splats and adventures, who also delved heavily into CCGdom. He's always been a rules cruncher, though.

There are about 3 more I know who don't work at Arena.net, but I'd have a harder time listing their pen and paper credits.

Seriously, the whole "MMO gamers are stupid" is a dead meme and has no truth behind it. Many people here on dumpshock have or do currently play MMOs, myself included.
What you mean when you say this statement is "there are more stupid people playing MMOs than tabletop" - which is true, because MMOs have a vastly larger following. The percentages of idiot to awesome are about the same, though.
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (Synner667 @ Mar 1 2009, 04:09 PM) *
If it's expected that the SR4 rulebook is no longer sufficient to play the game then it no longer costs $35 to start - it actually costs $200+. And you think that's ok ??


You don't really need them to enjoy SR, the additional core rule books beyond the BBB just add depth to the game.
Cain
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Mar 2 2009, 10:27 PM) *
You don't really need them to enjoy SR, the additional core rule books beyond the BBB just add depth to the game.

No, but you'll have trouble keeping up with the Joneses, so to speak. Imagine a 400BP character from the base book, pitted against a 750 karmagen character using all the books. Mr. BBB is going to get eaten for lunch.

I mean, take the worst the BBB can offer: a pornomancer, with about 30 dice. That's nasty enough, but with RC and the other books, that can get pushed to 51 dice. Suddenly the BBB pornomancer is just another social adept.
BlueMax
QUOTE (Adarael @ Mar 2 2009, 09:03 PM) *
Uh... the same people?

Seriously. Arena.net, who make Guild Wars, employs several friends of mine. They include:
-The old line editor for Legend of the 5 Rings - who also wrote many of the splats, many books for 7th Sea , and who is author of many Dragonlance novels.
-An author of a decent chunk of Changeling: The Dreaming material.
-A general writer of D&D splats and adventures, who also delved heavily into CCGdom. He's always been a rules cruncher, though.

There are about 3 more I know who don't work at Arena.net, but I'd have a harder time listing their pen and paper credits.

Seriously, the whole "MMO gamers are stupid" is a dead meme and has no truth behind it. Many people here on dumpshock have or do currently play MMOs, myself included.
What you mean when you say this statement is "there are more stupid people playing MMOs than tabletop" - which is true, because MMOs have a vastly larger following. The percentages of idiot to awesome are about the same, though.


I agree 100% and was trying to set this up. Games are games. People should play them and have fun.
BlueMax
QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 2 2009, 10:58 PM) *
No, but you'll have trouble keeping up with the Joneses, so to speak. Imagine a 400BP character from the base book, pitted against a 750 karmagen character using all the books. Mr. BBB is going to get eaten for lunch.

I mean, take the worst the BBB can offer: a pornomancer, with about 30 dice. That's nasty enough, but with RC and the other books, that can get pushed to 51 dice. Suddenly the BBB pornomancer is just another social adept.

When does this happen though? I mean the showdown or comparison? What does it matter what some dude has on his character at some other table?

Dream79
QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 3 2009, 06:58 AM) *
No, but you'll have trouble keeping up with the Joneses, so to speak. Imagine a 400BP character from the base book, pitted against a 750 karmagen character using all the books. Mr. BBB is going to get eaten for lunch.

I mean, take the worst the BBB can offer: a pornomancer, with about 30 dice. That's nasty enough, but with RC and the other books, that can get pushed to 51 dice. Suddenly the BBB pornomancer is just another social adept.


That would be why if you are only using the BBB to run the game, you only allow characters to be made with the BBB.
ravensmuse
Cain's thinking of Missions games, I'm betting. Which doesn't matter, because (and no offense meant here Missions folks) the majority of SR 4th players don't play Missions or play Missions alongside their own regular tabletop games. It's not a situation that comes up if there's a group decision to just use the Core.

People have to be choosy with their hobbies now because everything is in the shitter. The last rpg book I bought was the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, and that was mid-summer of last year. With no group and no real FLGS in the area (I'd have to go into Boston, which is expensive either due to gas or a train ticket) it's just not worth it to continue to purchase material I'm not going to use. This situation will probably turn around at some point, but there's no real reason for me to be buying books right now.

I would love to know where this "Dungeons and Dragons 4th edition is dying!" meme is coming from. Because while I know general gamingdom would love for this to happen, I haven't seen conclusive proof that such is happening. There's stories of "people I know" and there was that bunkus from last year where I think it was Chris Pramas (Green Ronin) was saying it - but I doubt the validity of someone who's business model now relies essentially on the disgrunted and people who want to play 3.5. I have yet to see one conclusive link provided.

DnD 4th edition is trying to get new people into the hobby using a roleplaying system that isn't as bogged down in legacy mechanics or legacy roleplaying "must haves" and from what I've seen (anecdotal, obviously) it seems that the people actively engaged in the roleplaying hobby hate it. And yet I hang out in places that are only tangentally attached to the roleplaying scene and I've seen people come out of the woodwork looking for more information on getting a group together and playing.

I think that scene is changing and the older generation(s) are feeling displaced. FLGSs are being replaced by the internet (and good fucking riddance). Ebooks are replacing hardcopy. People network online. Damned kids and their fool internet games are being actively enticed into the roleplaying hobby by making systems more actively reflect their damned internet games. This is a good thing. It's hard to get people into the hobby when it's a large investment in both time, people, and money. How many groups have you had fall apart because of inter-party drama?

So WotC punted and tried something new. DnD 4th is easy to get into (seriously). It's easy to buy things for - there's seperate books for GMs and players. It's also getting a lot of geek media coverage (I've seen Wired articles, lots of interviews, they've got the Penny Arcade / PvP / Wil Wheaton doing podcasts for them, they're actively outreaching to female gamers through Shelly Mezzanoble). And it freaks a lot of us old timers out because they're doing it in a way that we're not familiar with.

It's actually pretty close to the shift going on now in the video gaming world; the Wii is kicking ass and the guy with the 300$ - 700$ gaming rig cannot for the life of himself figure out why. The graphics aren't as sharp and cutting edge, it runs on SDtvs, it seems to have a lot of simple / party games...and it's blowing him away that it's outselling his favorite system 2 to 1. Seriously! Go out and look at some of the media out there, not just the fan blogs but the magazines and websites too!

Why is it doing so well? Because it lowered the bar. The wii-mote isn't as intimidating as a Dual Shock is. It's got games that don't require a whole lot of investure - you pick it up and play for upwards of half an hour and shut it off. There's no complicated HUDs, no xp totals to constantly worry about, no pre-conceived notions of how you play - you just play the fucking thing. My girlfriend asks to play games with me now because we can sit there with one controller and play a board game for an hour. This is a great thing.

And that's what DnD 4th did - it lowered the bar of entry. It's easy to pick your race, your class, a few powers, and know exactly what you're doing. There's an array pre-adjusted for you so you plug it into your stats. You adjust a few things. You pick out a few items, a weapon or two, and some armor. And then you just play. I mean, it's not really that hard to figure out why it's working for WotC just like it's working out for Nintendo.

A healthy hobby is good - a lot of the old guard is passing away, and if we continue to be elitist and unfriendly (imo the hobby has a serious issue with proselytization and elitism, not to mention hygiene) then we won't attract the new blood that will give us new ideas and new games. Which means becoming even nicher, even more insular, and a slow but sure death.

We don't want to become Warhammer, after all...
Adam
QUOTE (ravensmuse @ Mar 3 2009, 08:02 AM) *
I would love to know where this "Dungeons and Dragons 4th edition is dying!" meme is coming from. Because while I know general gamingdom would love for this to happen, I haven't seen conclusive proof that such is happening. There's stories of "people I know" and there was that bunkus from last year where I think it was Chris Pramas (Green Ronin) was saying it - but I doubt the validity of someone who's business model now relies essentially on the disgrunted and people who want to play 3.5. I have yet to see one conclusive link provided.


While Pramas isn't a fan of 4e or the Game System License, I think you're putting words in his mouth -- and I think you're overstating Green Ronin's reliance on 3.x-loving gamers, with Mutants and Masterminds' popularity, the Freeport series, a Song of Ice and Fire on the way next week, and other stuff they have in the pipe.
Wesley Street
QUOTE (Dream79 @ Mar 3 2009, 02:50 AM) *
That would be why if you are only using the BBB to run the game, you only allow characters to be made with the BBB.

This may seem like a rather obvious question but does it really matter if characters are made with only the BBB or a combination of the BBB and a peripheral core rules book? You're all playing on the same side, yes? I don't understand this idea that there is going to be some sort of one-up-manship at a table where you play as a team.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (ravensmuse @ Mar 3 2009, 02:02 PM) *
Cain's thinking of Missions games, I'm betting.

no need to bet, as its his preferred stick for beating the dead horse of SR4 brokenness with...
ravensmuse
QUOTE (Adam @ Mar 3 2009, 08:37 AM) *
While Pramas isn't a fan of 4e or the Game System License, I think you're putting words in his mouth -- and I think you're overstating Green Ronin's reliance on 3.x-loving gamers, with Mutants and Masterminds' popularity, the Freeport series, a Song of Ice and Fire on the way next week, and other stuff they have in the pipe.

It might not have been Pramas. I'm digging up the relevent link now. I just wish RPG.net's search function actually worked for once.

Also, I apologize for overstating his company. Didn't mean anything by it, just got into the spirit of the post, as it were.

ETA:

You were right, I was wrong.

QUOTE (Matt Sprange)
The fourth edition is something of an odd duck for us, and it is no secret that sales thus far have been somewhat behind those for third edition. The game itself is very different from its predecessors.


I'll pull back my comment about how it's third party companies complaining, but he just leaves it open to, "open secret". Open secret to whom? Wouldn't we have heard more by now? *shrug*
Tiger Eyes
QUOTE (ravensmuse @ Mar 3 2009, 09:02 AM) *
Cain's thinking of Missions games, I'm betting. Which doesn't matter, because (and no offense meant here Missions folks) the majority of SR 4th players don't play Missions or play Missions alongside their own regular tabletop games. It's not a situation that comes up if there's a group decision to just use the Core.


Technically, Mission characters are made following the rules in Shadowrun, Fourth Edition. If you sit down at a Missions game, every character there should have been made with the same 400 bp rules and follow the same rules for karma advancement. Missions can be played, and GM'd, with only the BBB. A player with only the BBB should not be at any disadvantage over a player with all the core books (although the core books offer more gear and magic traditions and whatnot, you are still limited to starting availability rules and the like).
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