Ok so the attributes thing EH I can go with it either way I really don't see the need to increase the cost so it meshes better with skills.

Costing more just means I now build my guys focused on their attributes more and either buy or raise skills for less later.


Combat Spells I get the increase in the drain to try to stem to use of over casting, yet it seems this is not why it was done if this is true then what is the reason for upping drain on combat spells?

Don't give me a speach on how it's cause your channeling more mana through your body so you take more drain, if that were so then the added drain should and would be present in all spell casting!


Ads sell books, sales means the game lives, so what ever.

The Drain change was supposedly designed to make Indirect Spells more attractive - something it has no noticeable effect on. The OR change does, however, but that has its own problems with it. What this Drain increase does do, however, is encourage overcasting of Direct Combat spells, as doing so results in lower Drain with the same effect.

The Attribute increase was needed, but poorly implemented. One of the major flaws of the system before was it basically double-charged metatypes for their bonuses. The new cost just makes that far more extreme.

The adds, as placed, are going to hurt sales of the core book. I will not be purchasing it because of them. Most people I know feel the same way, or very close to it. Many people that would purchase it, will change their minds when they see how the adds have been placed. Although less noticeable, the adds would accomplish their goal nearly as well in the front or back of the book, without ruining the sales of the core book.


And yes, I could have phrased the poll better, likely with noticeably different results, but changing it now would not have any real effect, & making a new poll I do not think would go over quite as well.

That is a good point. I'll admit that when I saw "leave as is" I thought that was SR4 before I read the next line.

You'd be surprised. I'm half tempted to rewrite the poll, just to see what happens.

Same here. That makes one full temptation; lets do it.

I'm all for it - I'm just not going to do it myself, as it would seem poor... something - form, maybe?

If you do so, it would probably be a good idea to provide a quote of the rule changes in the OP, along with descriptions of various alternate rules (if you include them - I would say you should, but not doing so may give a better idea of how many dislike the change in general).

Actually, I built a Troll Mage with the new rules changes in mind, and I will say: 10 dice pool(5 magic, 4 spellcasting, 1 Spellcasting focus) made me actually take an Indirect spell(lightning bolt), to go with my Mana Bolt, Mana Ball, and Power Bolt spells. Armour and Imp. Reflexes rounded out the grab bag.

As for those saying Meta's are getting punished for their stat boosts? They have ALWAYS had to pay more for their attributes then others. Then again, if you are building a troll, an Ork, Elf, or dwarf, those attributes that they have their highest are going to be, likely, where you are going to be putting a good bunch of points, anyway...Why make a Troll if you are going to have a high body or strength? Why make an Elf if you are not going to have a high Charisma or Agility?
You are getting a bunch of free points starting off..think about it: a Troll is getting 60 points worth of attributes for 40 points, plus dermal armour, thermographic vision, and a +1 reach. Yeah, it costs more for them to increase their Strength and Body..but it ALWAYS did.

hmmm
Just looked at the ad preview. I think it might have been better integrated into the whole, but it is in a crunch section, not a fluff section, so it's not the end of the world. It might prove valuable to newbs and the magic rules section seems an eminently sensible place to advertise the rules expansion.

While my core is looking pretty battered now i think i'll just scribble the errata into the appropriate margins, rather than shell out for the new core. I may change my mind in the future if i can pick up a decent paying job, but for now the mortgage needs paying!

Most people in this poll seem not to feel that way. maybe you and your group are not quite such a representative demographic.


The Banana Republic's approach to democracy: vote on the same issue over and over again until you like the results. But it is a nice test on how much influence suggestive questions have on a poll.

And for the record, I bought the pdf and will buy the printing of the book. Because it is better organsied and my cheap-ass FanPro printing of the SR4 core rules is falling apart as is. I really hope they pay for good binding this time. My SR4 (and late SR3) books are mainly duct tape zombies by now; not even my poor, bought used and battered in 1990 Seattle Sourcebook is in such a bad state as the late FP books are.

Seriously, FP, make the books a bit more robust. It really is worth an additional €3 for me.

What the poll does show, though, is that even if the changes were to be changed, there might be no solution that would please everyone on Dumpshock. NERPD, I guess.

Design by committee almost never works.

Design by building something that has internal check and balances, that stays true to its goal is much more likely to succeed.

I think that all the changes to SRv4 are the result of poorly implemented "listening to Players" and can only have produced a flawed product...
...Regardless of the good intentions.

Every edition of SR has had major changes [weapon ratings in SR1->SR2, skill resolution in SR2->SR3, etc], but at least they made some sort of sense at a design level.

Most of the issues with SR4.5 seem to be about balance...
...So I think the questions should be about what the issues in SR4 to be addressed were, and what was the reasoning behind those changes that got us to SRv4.5 - maybe that would make identifying issues and providing solutions easier.

No. Most are due to poorly implemented streamlining, too little or too superficial playtesting of the V4 rules, a raving mad German FanPro line developer who hated Shadowrun and wanted to destroy the setting for an Anime setting where steampunk Nazis in Reichsflugscheiben are the main enemy (I am NOT making this up), and poorly implemented transhuman ideas and forced "updating" of SR to the current treds in near-future SciFi.

Listening to customer complaints is what made them make the Changes V4 to V4A.


Which game - or any product, for that matter - ever does?

This is being questioned in various threads Synner. None of them have gotten a dev response.

I'd love you to explain all of that, with examples - because it sounds very far-fetched.


Many things are being ranted about, but overall design does not seem to be being questioned.

In real terms, we seem to have a magnificent and beautiful rulebook containing a poorly implemented system update.
And why a rules update at all ??
An expensive, limited edition rulebook would have been more than sufficient [as per the Call of Cthulhu anniversary edition, or the original 4th edition rulebook]

And who celebrates a 20th anniversary, rather than a 21st ??
Except maybe, someone who know they won't be around for the 21st ??

A 20th anniversary is an increment of 10, and the big landmark anniversaries are usually every 5 or 10 years. Something special for the game's 20th anniversary is very reasonable.

There's a thread asking for a reason behind the DC spell drain increase. Specifically the reason behind the change. It is, in fact, titled Reason for the new drain mechanic.
There's also SR4A: Is Firewall 6 impossible?
And Karma awards (more karma with SR4A?) with regards to some comment about 9 karma being average, despite the RAW's insistence that 4-5 is typical with 10 as the maximum.

Voila, I riposte, and return the remark back to you: The design is being questioned in various threads. None of them have gotten a dev response.



A damn good question. I know I'd buy a shiny book with merely errata updates to replace my aging one. One that contains such profound altercations to the rules that I do not agree with, I will not buy, no matter how shiny.

Duh.

To answer the poll in a somewhat rational way, I'll break my statements up by topic.

Attribute Advancement Costs

I agree with Muspell on this one; however due to a lack of playtesting, I can't help but wonder if these rules would nerf humans and make orks even more broken. I haven't done the math, and I don't plan on it, but it's a thought that creeped into my head.
I agree with the idea that it's "unfair" to have metas pay more for attributes that are naturally better due to their nature of being a meta.
It may be fair to increase the starting cost of metatypes in BP, or add a cost to karmagen to counter-balance that.
I also agree that skills, particularly skill groups should have their costs lowered, because otherwise it seems that character advancement will grind to a halt or, if your GM begins issuing more karma, that your street cred/public awareness will shoot through the roof.

Direct Combat Spells

Admittedly, I like the change to Direct Combat spells since it does tend to help set apart the usefulness of Direct vs. Indirect CS. One is great for taking down the living, the other is a catch-all for everything else (since it really makes it apparent that channeling mana into technological devices is really hard, thus both the increase to OR and the drain/hit rules). That having been said, I would also like something to address the overcasting issue being made, including a possible +2 drain/net hit, or even a "Overcasting drain is Force+n, instead of Force/2+n". Though that errs on the side of making magic CRAZY dangerous to use.
But it's still a hell of a useful tool to have, so it may make people think twice about being uber-combat mages, and instead round out their spells and skills a little.

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Really, I could care less either way.

Nah, that's never a problem - you just need to remember to commit an atrocity now and then, then buy it off with street cred to keep your public awareness down. Why the occasional mass-murder keeps you out of the newspaper, I'll never know.

The Nexus plot line was cocneived by Chris Lonsing, then German SR line developer and a main force behind SR4. He, being a huge fan of Japanimation, wanted to make SR more manga. For instance, the Sakura Fubuki is his work alone; in the German newsletter, he said it was inspired from the Japanopop he likes to listen to, and while he is aware of the name not fitting either the weapon or the SR world, he was content to rub it up fans' faces that he loves his schoolgirl romance.

My information on the Nexus storyline mainly derives from conversations with German writers. I haave no recordings of that, so I can only sum up from memory.

The idea was centered around Hitler's supposed retreat in the antarctic, neuschwabenland. This is a reasonably popular German conspiracy theory of the 50s, actually, as is Hitler's spaceship Andromeda.

Anyway, something magic was to happen there, and an underwatwer magical Nexus was to appear that starts spewing out magical steampunk Nazi flying saucers. A side story was to be (I really am not making this up, I swear!) a teleporting island full of ninja pirate zombies, a time travel storyline involving an immortal elf vampire in Prague who overruns the city with a Golem army and blood of a True Native Tasmanian, and a story about werewolf Nazi terrorists terrorisingh Poland, and a band of Querx (blue dwarves, native to Saxony) fighting them, with their village elder dying but being brought back to life by a unicorn's kiss.

The Nexus storyline would have had a global impact, was not at all coordinated with the US crew, and would hence have been German exclusive. Luckily for us all, FanPro went belly-up before lonsing could put his ideas into actual books.

I heared that from a couple of authors. I may have fallen victim to some kind of practical joke - I hope I was, in fact - but others have heared the same from different guys at FanPro D and confirmed it was indeed meant seriously. Yes, it sounds totally insane. It is.

Also, Lonsing's German newsletter is a good read to get a grip on the man. Sadly, it is rather a lot of stuff and would take a lot of time to be translated into English, which I do not have.

I actually find myself more interested in that storyline, insane-o as it may be, than I am in most of the official Shadowrun canon...

Blue Dwarves from Saxony. Surely that was a wind-up?

(emphasis mine)

Freudian slip?

Some form of typo. Happens to me a lot. Given that FF didn't catch it (it's not misspelled, clearly) I didn't catch it.

No. They had already been described in the (printed) second Germany book, which never was translated to English (It isn't that interesting, since it is 300-odd pages of descriptions of every German city of more than 50.000 in 2070; the only really interesting parrt is in the end, the stuff on life in the 60s and Loffy vs. Nachtmeister). The Querx actually is a local saxonian (Lausitz, to be precise) legend, a race of little people driven out of the land by early Christians.

OK, first..YAY that that did not get implemented!

Second, it almost seems like what you are saying, Hermit, is the impression I got, where part of the reason for the changes is to give Shadowrun BACK its feel where magic had an achilles heel of tech, Mages could pass out from a really powerful spell and so tended for quick takedowns rather then prolonged spell slinging battles, and skills defined the Runners, not Attributes.

Now, the question is: do you LIKE that direction?(Personally, I think there was more playtesting put into this then SR4..and from what I have seen going through the PDF, it is, over all, better written then the original SR4.)

No,Hermit is not making this up!
the Nexus Affair was the reason why I changed my Point of View towards Christian Lonsing(Vegetarian Wendigos ,
Spike Baby Three Headed Dragons in the 19th Century,Stargates for Time Travel,Nazi-Werewolfes on Reichsflugscheiben)
But that is Long ago.We should bury this Incident .Now Its CGL & Pegasus and I think they're doing a fine Job

With a Dance on the Grave of the Nexus-Incident.May it Rest in Peace and never Torment us again
Medicineman

I must have missed that incident... link, Medizinmann?

No Link ,Just Information from some Workshops (too me it seemed also too sincere to be an Aprils Fools Joke )
I really don't want to write anymore about this. I just didn't want Hermit to stand up there alone and be regarded as
Making this up ! (even though he might think that Hell is freezing up )
....oO( I forgot the Omegaware with no Essence-Loss)

with a dance on Ice
Medicineman

Yay? Thanks, though. I know it sounds totally outrageous (well, it is). I thought so myself.


Urgh, right. Yes.


Sure. Just wanted to point out where some of the setting's flaws in fluff (as I see them) might come from, and what kind of person Lonsing was.

Last commment on the subject: In one of the newsletters, he wrapped it up with "But now I am finally done with the newsletter and will go and do some work in my minis project. Because, even the SR line developer gets to do something he likes to do occasionally."

That was the official SR fan newsletter. Talk about epic fail in PR, eh?

So the "Nexus-Plot" is about the smurfs fighting Nazis?

Hmm, that sounds... original...

And Lonsing really wanted to incorporate this into Shadowrun? Whoa...