Ah yes, the good old internet "you should read more about subject X, the subject of our discussion, to understand what I mean," implying that a person hasn't actually read anything about subject X.

My only response in this case is to say that it is likely that I have been physically closer to where R'yleh is supposed to be for an extended period of time living at a location actually named by Lovecraft than you have, so nyah. My mutated gibbering mouth-tentacles are longer than yours.

Ok we've gone from: Gibbering Hordes that a low tech society can't handle to, sudden outbreak of new paranormal animal, dangerous and nasty, most people around here pack AK's.

That leaves a smaller subset of intelligent "greater horrors". My reading of Earthdawn was the, everybody run and hide, was as a result of A (hordes of lesser horror) and B (a small subset of greater ones controlling the lessors).

Also remember Earthdawn was published in 1994. It is possible that the cultural context has changed. What was plausible level of damage to cause folks to run and hide in 1994 might no longer seem to logically follow in 2009.

I'm with you on that one. If the devs even decide to advance the metaplot to such a time as the horrors start invading en masse, they're going to be beatable. Because otherwise, what's the point of playing a game where you automatically lose. And if the metaplot doesn't ever get to a major invasion by the horrors (which is what I expect), all we're going to see of the horrors is in things like the Harlequin's Back adventure, and we know what happened there.

So really, this whole discussion is moot, and just rampant speculation by everyone involved.

Let me try to say the same thing with different words:

This isn't Earthdawn, this isn't Cthulu, this isn't Lovecraft. This is Shadowrun.

For all we know this isn't even Earthdawn's world's future.

This is Shadowrun.

Monkeys are similar to humans, but are really really different.

Monkey = Earthdawn
Human = Shadowrun

They killed Dagon with a WWI era unguided anti-ship torpedo fired from a diesel-powered submarine.

What's scary is the Body Horror, being slowly corrupted and knowing that you're being slowly corrupted, without being able to do a thing about it.

Because this is cyberpunk. The world is dying, not with a bang but with a wimper. The end approaches and defiance of that end is futile- but what else will you do?

Do not go gently into that good night?

Now about the Lovecraft thing. You miss my meaning. You've no doubt read more Lovecraft than I as my exploration of his dark mind is very limited. But what I take away from Lovecraft isn't the specifics, but rather the general impression:

We mortal men are insignificant, as insignificant as insects, before the might and wisdom of ancient powers that make the elves and dragons look like infants.

Being confronted with unimaginably powerful forces beyond your capacity to defeat might not be any fun, but that is exactly what I mean when I say dynamite isn't going to do you any good. Lovecraft's horrors will break your mind and eat your flesh, and that's just the footsoldiers. Wait until the general gets here.

... except where it says that hunting down and bitch slapped several GDs and put them in cocoons. Why? because got pissed at the /creator/ of GDs ... who he him created ... then one-shotted.


But here's the thing the great dragons did a pretty good job taking over, and there are what 6-12 active? How many greater horrors are there again? It's been show that GDs are pretty killable, and that's not the issue

Every society up until now has either fled or fallen before the might of the Horrors, yet you stand defiant against the darkness. You will stand your ground. You will fight.

Ok.

You want to fight the Horrors and win? First we must review what little we know about the enemy:

They dwell somewhere beyond the metaplanes and can only cross over once the ambient mana rises to a given level. The minor Horrors can stay long after this mana level has subsided, but they can be killed by physical means once stranded here on the material plane. The Horrors exceed us in the use of magic by so much that only by concealing our magic use can we use it without being destroyed. The Great Horrors are unlikely to be vulnerable to physical attack on the material plane because of their connection with their home plane.

So far we've heard ideas of weaponizing magic (not likely to be effective), using machineguns and explosives (unlikely to be effective against the greatest of them), deploying automated drones (which will only be armed with the machineguns and explosives) even the suggestion that we employ nuclear weapons- great idea, let's create a mana blight while destroying the very ground we're trying to protect.

All of these ideas have one thing in common: They assume a defensive battle. The enemy will attack when it is most advantageous for them and least advantageous for us. Waiting for them to come here and then assuming our technological superiority (if indeed we have technological superiority- it's been a few thousand years since we've dealt with them after all) will do the trick is over-confident to say the least. It is likely that the lesser horrors are already pouring into our realm. The greater among them are probably collecting intelligence from their minions and planning their invasion as they bide their time (or as they rape another plane whilst they wait) so assuming technology will be a surpise to them is a bad bet.

What we need is an offensive campaign. As General Patton said, "When in doubt, ATTACK!" Get some mages with bigger balls than brains, send them out to track back these minor minions to their native metaplane(s) and have them bring back some intelligence. Once we know where they are, we can send teams to attack them.

And how pray tell do we "attack" them? Magic is out. They're far too powerful for that. Technology is out, unless one of you smart guys has found a way to cart a lightmachinegun across the metascape. The weapon we use is one that appears to be very effective against the enemy but is probably the last thing you'd consider when reviewing your armaments list: Music.

In Earthdawn every character is required to have some kind of artist skill in order to prove they aren't horror marked. The horrors can't make music, or dance, or sculpt. And what was it that laughing-man used to shatter the astral bridge across the metaplanes? Bird song was it not?

Send a team of musician mages to the enemy's realm. Have them put on a concert, maybe some Mozart or Tubular Bells. Put them on the defensive. Maybe they'll decide to attack an easier target plane. Maybe a premptive strike will catch them unaware and level the playing field.

Maybe they'll begin to fear us.

Why am i suddenly reminded of country music to kill invaders... darn where does that idea come from...

There is some movie where country music literally explodes aliens heads. Can't remember the name though.

You should read a bit more Earthdawn to understand that most Horrors are quite killable. Horrors. Y'know, the things we're talking about (as opposed to Cthulu and his buddies, the things we're not).

Well said. If the metaplot really advanced to the arrival of the horrors, Shadowrun would be changed so much we'd probably not recognize it anymore. Or the horrors are used in one arc/adventure series, then reduced to a nuissance threat on the level of the shedim, blood mages, toxics and insect spirits, while the world continues to work like before with minimal changes.

Mars Attacks, based on the old bubblegum cards from the 50s. The music was Slim Whitman, if I remember correctly.

they can make the claim all they want, but by the stats, Verj is owned by every Great Dragon in existence. His 6 attacks against their 10 is pretty damning, but the big thing is the Dragon's ability of Disrupt Fate and Suppress Magic. He can take a common dragon in a stand up fight, but he has no chance vs. a GD.




in shadowrun yes, I've played some pretty high level, ridiculous DBZ-esque Earthdawn games, and I still don't think my munchkins wet-dream of a character could survive a round with a Great Dragon.

Your wizard never created a "Dragon Slave" or "Giga Slave" spell then. (For those who don't know Slayers! the first is no charm/dominate spell, but causes massive destruction, would be more aptly named "Dragon Slay". The second is the thermonuclear variant of it and can, if going out of control, destroy the earth.)

The Mazoku from Slayers! are similar to the Horrors, by the way.

He couldn't. (Talking about an ED character lasting a round with a GD)

-------------------------

The Horrors will not be able to "Flood the world with blood before an unstoppable wave of minor Horrors" because horrors are... well... killable. Their not spirits. Their not manifesting. They actually do make the trip.

Most likely, they don't make the jump back to their home plane but actually move on to the next plane which is in a magic upswing after slaughtering the last one. Their like the Zerg or Nids with a means to travel through the astral plane to reach their next target.

Endless numbers of nasty (if little more than mindless) killing machines.
Untold numbers of moderately powerful and smart killing machines.
Just short of untold numbers of powerful and very smart killing machines, good at manipulating.
Huge numbers of very powerful and extremely smart killing machines who twist and manipulate all.
Large numbers of extremely powerful and unbelieveably smart corrupters and manipulaters.
Numbers of unbelieveably powerful and unknowingly smart... well... Horrors.

Weapons and magic can kill the lesser ones fairly easy, even if they are a near endless hoard. The problem comes from the more powerful ones who corrupt and manipulate and control and do all sorts of unknowing things behind the scenes.

Over in the 800 BP thread in Community Projects, I have Bongo Slade, Mystic Drummer. His long-term goal is to find the heartbeat of Gaia, and play it. Now I know what he will do ... next.

Some of this talk about horrors not doing anything humans don't - makes me wonder if one day someone won't make a game where you play humans who have perfected genetech to the point that each individual can have some awesome body of his own creating, including whatever features he thinks best. Humans as a group have found ways to jump across space and time and basically own everything, enjoying a giant orgy of indulging whatever their basest and wickedest desires, served by mindless, base creatures - until a small group of mutants find goodness and fight back, eventually driving humans off of their particular realm.

Read Ivan Banks: The Culture series

It fits quite well into what you mentioned execpt that it's controlled by artifical intellegnces that well are a bit too smart, well meaning, and noisy for thier own good.

Hmm the Horrors vs the Culture: Who wins...... Ultimate magic vs Ultimate Sci-fi now that is a hard one. Would probably bet on the Culture. The horrors would get to the point that the Culture sees no redeming value and that they must be elminiated. A short time later they collasp the horror's home dimension. Well that or they go hand in hand destroying everything in all existances.


Regarding this post though the main horrors won't be in SR for at least a min of +500-1000 years so it really doesn't matter. If it was sooner am sure the ex-Pres would have put spell matrixes and more information regarding horrors them into his will. As well with information on how to build the runic shelters.

If looking for a good novel though would recommend Talisman (Earthdawn). It is a few short stories about a windling (pixie) that gets trapped into magical amber and has to live through countless years trapped. Shows a good example about how the world turns.

Oh, just thought of something. For a look at "The Horrors verse a high tech/high magic humanity", give the old ICE game "Dark Space" a look over. Granted, humanity in Dark Space is just a little (well ok, a hella lot) more advanced then in Shadowrun, but it will still give you a good idea.

Hell, they even have their own version of the nethermancer who can turn their version of a Horror to "toxic goo" if he can suprise it/get the jump on it all by his lonesome. Well, if he is a 15th circle that is.

Well, if the Horrors ever arrived at Earth in Shadowrun, I also expect the Doctor to arrive in his TARDIS and to save mankind (again).

Also, Daleks!!!

Because Daleks and Horrors fighting each another is probably cool, and needs to be realized.

And these are the one's that departed when the mana level started to fall. The one's that remain in ED are vulnerable because they're stranded here on the material plane- they can't go home because the bridge between here and there is gone.
When the mana tide rises high enough for the Horrors to make their crossing in SR, it won't be the same as in ED because the mana cycle will be on the upswing rather than on the downswing. Thus those horrors on the initial attack may not need to physically come across to the terrestrial plane where they'd be physically vulnerable until after resistance to the invasion has been quelled. I'm sure they have plenty of minions that can do the quelling.
Which is the reason an offensive campaign is the best bet. The enemy is most likely more vulnerable on his home plane than ours.

Now, since I'm a redneck, I gotta ask: How do I get my shotgun across the metascape? Astral rift? Engineered alchera? Do I need to fashion it out of orichalcum?

It's correct that Horros can't create art in any form, but they're not damaged by it either.

Bah stop ruining our Robotech dreams, a teenage girl singing pop love songs conqures all (as it well should). I bet they have never seen someone kiss before either and that will send them into shock to the point that we can easly dispach them while they are confused.

kissing's a part of lust, and horrors feed on that just as much as rage, hate, and greed...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkhtbOGDaCk

Win.

At the Chasm, the Horrors were held at bay by the song of the goddess Thayla. Granted, this is no ordinary song, but one "of perfect purity and goodness".

Still, there might be a way to do something similar.

Edit: Just thought I'd mention the source - Dragon Heart Saga

Oh man, I love this! Bongo Slade would go nuts ... imagine: learn the Heartbeat of the Gaia and play it at the chasm to hold back the hordes.

Well I was thinking something more like this, this, this, or maybe this.

But if you'd rather side with the Horrors, you know, to each his own.

so, I started playing the first, then the second, then the third... all at the same time...

it shouldn't have been as awesome as it was.

that sounds an awful lot like the plan a malkavian I built in oWoD...

The last time I dealt with Malkavians we were going into battle. Whilst I rallied the Brujah for the fight the Malkavians were dispatched to ready the shotguns.

DON'T EVER SEND THE MALKAVIANS TO GET THE SHOTGUNS!

So we use superior tactics and stealth to take the enemy by surprise and just when we're about to kick ass the shotgun goes: click

The Malkavians insist I only ordered them to bring the shotguns, I didn't say anything about the SHELLS!

Needless to say, that's the last time I trust a Malkavian in battle.

Just a quick point, the SR universe has already been invaded once. In most places the insect spirit got rooted out, except of course for Chicago. Yeah the big bads came onto this plane to be big and bad, and got wiped out by a bio weapon. When humanity decides its us or them humans can get extremely nasty and vicious. (Oh and according to Shadows of North America the Tir had a shit fit about the UCAS actually beating the insect spirits).

This debate keeps coming back to "humanity sucks and is incompetent, they're going to get slaughtered because of this super powerful ability of Horrors to go Astral (never mind that they can't in Earthdawn)". Let me simply humbly suggest that it is impossible for six billion humans to disappear into underground vaults. Faced with an enemy trying to kill billions, the gloves are going to come off. If the survival of the human race requires will Godzilla in the astral, or even an army of Godzillas I expect that Godzilla will wonder what the twinkling light in the sky is just before the white light hits and there's nothing left.

Any species that would treat a nuclear grenade launcher as a serious weapon system is not somebody you want to mess with.

I'm listening to them together right now. Yeah....

Seriously, humans are no joke.

That said there are a couple horror in the horror book that /only/ exist on the astral. And any one, like many horrors, with circle 7 nethermancer skills can actually open portals that move you bodily onto the astral, so it is actually worth talking about. Damage Shift cost a karma point (read as edge) and makes you invisible for 50 seconds, which is more than enough time for to teleport way (an 8th Circle illusion, 7th circle nethermancy). One horror is explicitly stated as knowing every spell in Barsaive, which is a lot more that was ever printed.

Too bad for your statement that Shadowrun has very little cyberpunk left in it. Now it's much more transhumanist meets fantasy. Nowhere in SR do they give the impression that things are hopeless. Quite the opposite, really.

You've got a point there.
I think where SR differs from pure cyberpunk (other than the elves) is that the "end" isn't really the end. It's more like a rebirth. The world as we know it comes to an end, but only because a new world is emerging. And, as with all child birth, there is pain in the process.
I don't expect 6 billion people to disappear into underground vaults. I expect 10+ billion to die. (I also expect the population to continue to increase until the horrors arrive)
And any species that uses a nuclear grenade launcher isn't long for the material plane. Though if you could somehow get one onto the metaplanes I can see serious possibilities.
I also don't expect the horrors to be completely ignorant of our technology. Look how far the pathetic humans have come in just a few thousand years. We'd be fools to expect the Horrors not to have become even more dangerous in the interim.
Also, this obsession with nuclear weapons...Not my first choice for a defensive action. But since the Horrors are unlikely to be genetically similar to humans, maybe a biological weapon?

I really don't know the Horrors, not having read or played Earthdawn, but they seem to me to be at the top of the food chain, and described as unbeatable in those past times. If a species isn't challenged, it tends to stagnate. Humans have evolved so rapidly, particularly in technologies of destruction, because we prey on each other. There are examples of falls into complacency and stagnation (eg. the Roman empire) that demonstrate we too can fall into that trap. If you buy into this position, then it is reasonable to assume (hope?) that the Horrors haven't needed to progress.

And, given they are held back by the gulf between planes, how would they know of our status now?

A very human tactic suggested earlier is the preemptive strike. That seems interesting to me.

I can't imagine a species worthy of the name "Horrors" to have organized itself into any form of Utopian society. Now granted they may have become over-reliant upon magic and thus may have neglected technology (or we can hope) but I also don't expect any species capable of competition with Great Dragons to be stupid. If I were in their position, I wouldn't come blindly storming out of the gates of hell at the first opportunity. I'd send scouts first. And we already see dark forces entering our world. The Shedem, Shadow and bug spirits, are but a taste of the threats we have yet to face. How many of these are the pawns of greater threats?
Again let me point to the most significant difference between ED and SR. It's not technology, but the fact that ED takes place as the tide of magic is going out while in SR the tide of magic is coming in. Though it is true the threats in ED are more powerful than those in SR, keep in mind that the most dangerous horrors had already departed our world before ED takes place. These greater threats are the ones that world of SR will have to contend with, either in a thousand years if Laughingman and his associates are successful, or much, much sooner.

I love when this discussion comes up every year or so.

I look at it this way, when the horrors show up, they will make a mess. Lots of people die year one. Billions.
Humanity gets its act tougher once everyone stops panicing, and make a pretty good show during the next 2-3 years or so. Those smaller weaker ones are pretty easy to kill once you know their are there. And the dragons, Immortal Elves, and other power players in the metaphysical world teach us how not to die.
Mana level continues to rise, and the bigger meaner ones start showing up. And worse, the more subtle sneaky fraggers who don't just show up to bathe in your blood. It gets ugly again as minor civilizations and nations collapse.
Again though, we learn how to fight them, and the Great Dragons are out there having to crack skulls again. Perhaps we realize that a nasty astral bacterias works, or something else semi ingenious. Little celebration. Really smart people are getting out of dodge, and now living full time either in orbit, or on the moon.
Now another few years, decades perhaps, the REAL horrors can arrive. Those big scary fraggers with Names. Now? Now we as as squashy bags of water and iron get desperate. A few smart ones have gotten around to building neo-cairns. A few dumb ones think that we can unleash the power of the atom, and find out that sure, it might even kill one or two, but you just did some terrible things in the process. Makes you wonder how a horror would react to a mana warp, such as the one that an atomic blast creates.
At this point, we are hosed. How ever the big players from the 4th world survived, they are doing it again, either by fighting or by hiding. Humanity is reduced to total populations in the millions, tops. Even the major horrors find the neo-cairns a tough nut to crack, with better materials, better magic, and better information to keep them safe.

Perhaps I'm a pessimist, but I read my copy of 'Harlequins Back' (which for those of you who haven't, its perhaps the greatest story ever put to paper for an RPG, with the best GM guidelines written) and I look at what it took just to slow them down.

I want a copy of that.

Here's a new one: We've got mentor spirits, sprites, free spirits, and all sorts of other pseudomagical entities on the Matrix. Stands to reason that Horrors would start showing up there, too.

I would wonder, though, if we could arrange a Blood Wood sort of deal, but replacing the physical pain with mental anguish. A few Spice Girls songs on infinite loop mixed with a bit of Miley Cyrus would do the job.

And thus, Verjigorm gets rickrolled. He is not amused.

What? No Britney Spears?

Actually that is rather cool. With better coordination and mixing I could see a World Music chart topper.

Damage Shift doesn't make you invisible.

Indeed, that was an, interesting, experience. And far better than it had any right to be

Yes, but you can still see the Horror.

The Win!