Spending Edge on a regular basis. What do you do when a spirit has been mistreated? It can't rebel any further.

1... Handled through roleplaying
2... Spend Edge to resist the Binding Test as well
3... Carry out Orders to the Letter of the Law, not the Spirit (No Pun Intended)
4... And lets not forget, Spirits have control of their powers, NOT THE MAGE... they are tools to be sure, but they still control their actions within the confines of their orders... They can still choose exactly how to carry out their orders, and when or not to spend any edge... etc.

Lot of things that spirits can do if they are mistreated...
Eventually, a mage mistreating spirits is going to have ALL spirits spending Edge to resist them... as well as drawing the attention of other, possibly hostile spirits...
What about those Free spirits that they may want to deal with... Good luck doing any of that if you are known for mistreatment of spirits...
And don't even think about going on any Astral Quests... in the LAND OF SPIRITS you are THEIR bitch...

Etc... ad infinitum

I don't really see any problems here...

Define mistreating?
If the summoner acts within his tradition towards the spirits, and treats them as expected, they should not act in a particularly hostile or resentful fashion towards them.
If the summoner calls upon spirits to help them a lot, them to me it seems they'll be happy for the work, so long as they get the manna they want as payment.
I've wondered what would happen if summoner offered a spirit Karma to not resist a binding.

Define mistreating?
If the summoner acts within his tradition towards the spirits, and treats them as expected, they should not act in a particularly hostile or resentful fashion towards them.
If the summoner calls upon spirits to help them a lot, them to me it seems they'll be happy for the work, so long as they get the manna they want as payment.
I've wondered what would happen if summoner offered a spirit Karma to not resist a binding.

Having spirits regularly spend Edge to resist a normal summoning test is not conducive to keeping summoning as a viable mage tactic, as the poster's own example of someone taking 20 Drain from attempting to summon a Force: 5 spirit demonstrates. Sure, it's "within the rules", but I agree with HappyDaze that it's dickery. It would also be "within the rules" to have a gang with physical Attributes of 5, skills of 4 plus specialization, wired reflexes: 2, and Auto-Assault 16's as the opposition (I'm talking a regular gang, not something like the Ancients).


As a tangent, on the subject of spirits being willing to help, remember that the mage's tradition will, in large part, determine how they act. Hermetics have a big advantage in that they expect spirits to be dumb and servile, so that's what they get. Other traditions, though, might consider spirits as capricious but powerful beings who must be flattered, bribed, and cajoled (as Voudoun does).

I wouldnt spend a spirits edge to resist summoning tests unless the mage was abusing his spirits. I dont mean rules-wise, i mean getting them to reduce their magic performing services over extended periods (cant quite remember which one does this, is it maintaining a spell for a long time?), constantly causing spirits to become disrupted by asking them to fight etc....or perhaps if they have a mentor spirit associated with a certain type of spirit they might become angry quite quickly if the summoner doesnt comply to the teachings/methods of their mentor

I do not think that allowing high force spirits to use their inherent abilities to resist summoning/binding attempts is classified as dickery. If you were in a territory held by the Ancients, then would you complain that they had the stats that you so generously provided above? As a point... Low level spirits are the "gangers" of the spirit world, however as you move up the feeding chain of spirits, they become more powerful and cease to be "gangers" equating out to the more equivalent abilities of "Agents" of military or corporate organizations... Just how the power levels equate... So when I attempt to summon a Force 3 spirit, I get a Ganger warleader or some such, who is very powerful on his own terms... but when I need the "James Bond" or "Terminator" of spirits, well then I am going to have to summon more towards the upper end (and probably take some physical drain to boot if I need to exceed my magic rating).

If we need the end all be all of elemental lords, well, I do not htink that it should be easy and a Force 10-15 Spirit should be EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to successfully summon, let alone to bind to service for the really cool assistance abilities. Apparently you tend to disagree... that is definitely your perrogative to do so, but not in my game...

The appearance of a force 8+ spirit should be epic... And in the entire time that I have played 3rd and 4th edition, I have only witnessed a successful double digit spirit summoning once (Force 10)... After removing the obviously broken mechanic of spending a permanent Karma (or two) to successfully summon (and bind) a maximum rated spirit for their one service. 4th edition has gone a long way to balancing the powers of magic, and if the magically aware are still a little more potent than your average Street Samurai, well, they pay tfor the privelege...

If you want the Force 16 Spirits to be common, well, it is your game... YMMV





Which in My experience, is very common... on all examples... In my experience, the overuse fo the service "Spell Binding" is the one overriding reason for spirits to resist summoning and binding of most spellcasters, as when it is ordered, the spirit loses Essence Permanently... when is the last time that you went out to assist someone and was willing to lose a leg to do so... I bet you would resist ever helping such an individual again wouldn't you...

The only time that I managed to have spirits that were somewhat "Willing" to serve at the very high levels 5+ was when I was playing a Necromancer (Serving the Mentor: Dark King) that honored his servants (spirits) and rarely asked anything that would cause the above situations... It was mostly through roleplaying, but there you have it... I was able to actually convince the spirits to serve (generally through a lot of negotiation before the actual summoning/binding because I tended to undertake Astral Quests to their realm so that I could gain their service... as a result, I was, on more than one occassion, able to summon high force spirits without the added resistance (and even bind a few under the same circumstances with little to no resistance)... and still, there was always a class of spirit (Blood/Viscera Spirits - Descriptive of Water Spirits (Health Category)) that always gave me trouble, even with the above circumstances, even at the low end, as they did not care to serve... again, all because of the roleplaying and "Fluff" of the Tradition as it was written... and even in the end, the Spirits of the Necromancer made little to no difference, as he died a most horrible death, while surrounded by several of his bound spirits that could do nothing to intervene... Sometimes ultimate power ends in a humiliating and unavoidable death... that is how the dice ultimately fall...

There you have it... My Two Cents

As I've said before, for most Spirits, servitiude to magicians is their natural state while in the material world and 'near' Astral (metaplanes being 'far' Astral) - so why should they resist what is natural to them?

The way that I read it is as follows...

Spirits are only in the "Near" astral BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN SUMMONED... so, would it be so unnatural for them to not want to leave the FAR ASTRAL (As you describe it)?

When a spirit is disrupted, they are sent back to their metaplane... as evidenced by the need to quest there if you want to bring back a disrupted, bound spirit before it base time for return... using your logic... spirits do not live there, and are just visiting the Near Astral and somehow get "snared" in a summoning...

By my reasoning... you have your spirits that inhabit their own metaplanes... and that is where they reside until they have been summoned. hence, summoning rips them from their metaplane and brings them to the "near" astral so that they may serve the summoning magician. In this instance, The spirit is well within its "Rights" to resist the summoning any way that they see fit. Including the expenditure of Edge to resist.

Now, I will conced that when a spirit is in the "near" astral, its nature is to serve, but since they do not reside in the near astral, I see no reason that they could not resist that service... Spirits do not sit in their Metaplane WAITING to serve... Just because they are forced to serve the summoneer once they have been summoned/bound does not make that service desireable or wanted.

Spirits are powerful and alien to the world... the deepeer into the metaplanes that you get, the more powerful and alien you tend to get... Using your analogy, All Shedim and Insect Spirits are just waiting to SUMMONED so that they mayt SERVE... and it has been shown throughout the history of Shadowrun that this is definitely NOT THE CASE...

But as I have said... Your Mileage May Vary; but it seem pretty apparent that though spirits serve those capable of summoning them, they do not do so out of a need to be useful, they do so because they are forced to do so through magical coercion. A coercion that they are free to resist in any way that they are able.

My Two Cents...

If the player has been properly roleplaying out their relationship to the spirits why would they put extra effort into rebelling? The mage in question had Spirit Affinity, had actively befriended his spirits (giving them names befitting his tradition, etc.) and generally done everything right. Having every force 6+ spiritact like he'd mistreated them would have been unfair.

And even then, summoning a Force 16 spirit without burning Edge is likely to be fatal. My player didn't burn Edge-- I rolled badly-- but he still ended up at 8 boxes of Physical.

Because being summoned is how spirits rise in force. They get paid in mana, which over time causes them to get better.

It's the same reason runners go on runs. If they quit running and find a Day Job they don't get karma.

In regards to the Edge reference... I expect a character to burn edge to summon a force 16 spirit, that was not the issue...

It was in reference to older rules that allowed one to absolutely succeed, no matter the difficulty, at a single task... thus you could burn a point of Karma (now Edge) to summon the obnoxiously powerful spirit and not die doing so... and then spend another Karma to bind it and not die doing so... voila, I can now rule the world with my obnoxiously powerful spirit because no one can oppose me...

That was fixed with the way Edge expenditures now function...Burning an Edge point now only gives you a critical success (4 Successes)... not generally a good idea unless you are rolling so few dice that a critical success is a statistical impossibility and you absolutely musty have it... On contested rolls it is not as useful, as you must still exceed the number of success generated by your opposition to succeed. Against a powerful spirit... 4 successes may be enough, then again, it may not be... definitely a better resolution in my opinion.

As to the Way that Spirits are treated... it is a campaign, roleplaying, issue almost always...

In a campaign that does not allow the character to delve into the relationships that a mage/shaman/whatever has with his tradition and his spirits, it is a control...

In a campaign that allows such, it is a control for those that do not take the time to invest themselves into the tradition and the way it treats spirits.

It is something that is used in our campaign to balance out the world view of magic with the "Crunch." If all you care about is the crunch, then in our campaign you will always suffer under the controls put in place to showcase the exceptional power of mages. Those who are in complete harmony (or at least attempt to be in harmony) with their worldview/magical tradition, and who take the effort to stay in favor with it will reap some benefits.

Again... it is not against the rules to make summoning difficult... In our campaign, the summoner of your Force 16 spirit would have had his summoning dice pool to resolve the summoning of the spirit and his Binding dice pool to resolve the binding of the spirit. He could even spend his edge to do so... perfectly within his right. If he has negotiated with the spirit on an astral quest (necessary in our campaign for a spirit of this extreme magnitude), had the requisite magic rating, and was in great favor with the tradition as a whole, it might have been resolved with the spirit resisting with only 16 dice... on the other hand, if he was not in synch, he would have been facing a summoning resistance of 32 dice and a binding resistance of 48 dice (rather than 32)... there is a reason that such spirits are rare (as summoned) and almost non-existent, even in legends (as bound). Even so, I have yet to ever have a reason, ever, of summoning such a powerful spirit... for the same reason that I do not, ever, look to have access to a Main Battle Tank on the Streets of Hong Kong... it just has no real place.

I hope that this (as well as the previous information that I posted) sheds a little light on why spirits can resist a summoning, if they so choose to do so... As a magical character you have access to a great deal of power, and like all power, it must have some constraints. There is always a price paid for every decision that you take... You can always attempt to summon any spirit of any power... there are always consequences to doing so...

That being said... As long as the consequences are laid out for the game world, you cannot complain when they are enforced. It is not Dickish for a spirit to want to resist with all their ability, should they choose to do so, and a magicial should be ready for the possibility that this may occur at any instant... as a GM you always have the option to not apply modifiers as you see fit, as long as they are applied consistently and rationaly.

It would be dickish if it was arbitrary, which it never is in our campaign (and our application of the options are acceptable under the RAW)... You known the risks, you takes your chances.

My Two Cents

That's the point of view of a shortsighted hermetic mage, not of a spirit. It's like saying the natural state of a human in space is with a suit. Well, what's wrong here is "natural state". The natural state of a spirit on earth is a nonsense to begin with.
There are many, many things in the books that suggest spirits are independant beings with their own values and mindset. Qualities (spirit bane), the sole fact that the rules state that spirits can resist with edge (if they never wanted to, that rule wouldn't be there), the fact that they can try to interpret the rules to trick the summoner if upset, etc.
It's actually heavily suggested that binding a spirit -elemental, kami, or whatever- is certainly not appreciated by spirits, at least in general.

It's completely up to the GM, but I certainly think it's more dickery to tell your GM to get lost because he offered some challenge and roleplay opportunities, than to have high-force spirits resist with edge.

Whether or not the spirit resist with edge depends on what the gamemaster feels about. I personally consider several factors:
-High force spirits don't like to be summoned by noname streetmages - he may be too proud, or too busy, for instance. On the other end of the scale, a low-level spirit will be a lot more humble and less likely to resist. I have exceptions for both cases.
-A Mage renown for sending spirits to their doom will have trouble summoning more, they will resist as much as they can. A humble mage who treats spirits with respect will have a much easier time.
-Spirits who agree with the character's value or immediate goals will be less likely to resist with edge: summoning a spirit of the air to take down a nasty coal power plant guarantees that the spirit won't use edge -unless you're trying to summon a force 12 elemental lord.

Thank You for your support Werewindlefr...

I'm not sure if I'd go with greater than force 3 being so point of edge spending spirits. But I could go with any overcast summoned spirits and all bindings are resisted with edge. Spirit affinities or good roleplaying might stop edge from begin used.

And your viewpoint assumes that Spirits have metahuman desires and behavioral patterns, so we each make assumptions that simply don't work for the other.

Nope. He's only one person at the table. He really only has whatever authority the players decide to give him. And they can take that away mighty fast if they so choose.

A good GM would offer challenges that I can make use of my character's abilities - including summoning and binding if my character has them - to deal with rather than simply trying to just take my abilities away or neuter them. If the GM can't or won't do so, them drop 'em.

And the players. Just considering the GM's feelings alone leads to dickery.

Um, unfortunately... you may burn a point of edge permanantly to achieve critical success on one test, as per BBB 68. BBB 59 defines "critical success" as 4 or more net hits.

I couldn't speak to the SR4A errata, however. Was this one of the changes?

If not, this makes binding bitchin' large (force 10, Mwahahaha!) spirits to four services just after character creation a definite option, regardless of the strength of the mage... assuming you want to burn a point of edge on each of the summoning, binding, and drain tests. Rather expensive at 30BP and 15k , but if you REALLY MUST have the biggest weapon in the room...

Heh, at 1 hour per force, your character may want to restrict his major bindings to Midsummer (or Midwinter, for you nocturnals) in order to get the whole ritual in before sunset/sunrise.

But the players' feelings here are akin to puting cheat codes in a game, because then they rock and it's funnier when they rock.


Yes, and your character's abilities are not "I can summon spirits however I want", it's "I can summon spirits who may actively resist summoning". He did exactly what you said: he allowed you to use your abilities as written in the book. What you asked for are more than what your abilities are supposed to allow.
People complain that spirits are overpowered. They're not, when you consider the built-in limitations. You're calling what your DM did dickery when he just used the limitations that are necessary for game balance. Because you know what? I can summon a force 10 spirit with a rookie character without breaking a sweat and win the game. Is that fun?

If your DM didn't want to give everyone a free thunderstruck, would that be dickery? If he doesn't allow 500 BP characters at the begining, is that dickery?

You don't have the same conception of the game as your DM. That doesn't mean that what he does is Dickery. That means you need a DM more suited to your needs.
My point of view is the one of the book: spirits aren't masochists who like servitude by ***holes (hermetic mages are close to being that ) who don't care about having them killed.

Remind me never to game with you. The GM's word is law (except when RAW states otherwise (unless the GM has previously stated houserules that the players agree to)).

You appear to completely ignore (or ridicule, or dismiss) what you do not agree with (Kick the GM to the Curb if he does not give em what they want, eh? Seems like a way to run out of Good GM's)...

It seems to me that you just want a game where you are always right rather than a game where the GM provides obstacles and challenges to the story. Did you not notice that both myself and Werewindlefr have offered roleplaying opportunities to the discussion so that one might circumvent the possible reasons for the challenges in summoning spirits. All the challenges put forth would make use of your abilities, if only you were willing to take advantage of them...

If the player did not design the character to take advantage of the possible resolutions, then that is a problem that rests with the player not the GM (and is not strictly a Mage problem in my opinion... how many Street Samurai have no Etiquette or Negotiation skills... a fair number in my experience)... A game has to be fun for ALL players, not just you... and the above challenges bring the Magician character somewhat into line with the perceived worldview of the game... Magic is rare, and thus anyone who can manipulate it is very powerful... So maybe you have to go out and negotiate with a spirit or two on an Astral Quest before you summon them... so what... That is the price you pay for power in my opinion... or you do so without the preparation and suffer any of the societal consequences that have been put in place to handle spirit interactions...

You roll your dice and takes your chances...

My Two Cents

You are right... My Mistake...



I was really hoping (obviously unsuccessfully) that they had fixed that loophole...



And Agreed on that...

As do you. Welcome to my ignore list.

First, I have ignored nothing that you have said, nor have I ridiculed you (much)... and as you can see throughout the boards, I admit when I am wrong. I did not dismiss your arguments; Your point of view is a point of view that I happen to not agree with, so I provide rational discussion on why I believe it works as I view it (and pretty much every one I have ever played Shadowrun with views it as well)... I was hoping that you could also do the same... If you can only counter with "I Ignore You" well, there you go... your perrogative after all...

I guess I won't miss much from your refusal to have rational discourse on why there are limits placed on the "Fluff" side of spirit summoning... After all, we can't all be Ultimately powerful in our own minds...

However, Thanks to everyone else who has contributed to a relevant, fun and informative discussion on Spirit Society and their foibles, not everyone does things the same way, and I am always enlightened when I see something that I have never seen before... I know that for the most part that it is "Fluff" for the world of Shadowrun, but without the Fluff, where would the game be...

If I was an Internet Troll, I'd say at WotC .

(Is already gone with 8 hits on his Strength+Running)

Ask the player if he could tone down the use of spirits.

Talking helps.

I'm the GM in our current group.
Our general rule about Summoning/Binding Spirits is that unless they exceed the mages Magic attribute, most Spirits won't have a problem with it. (Mage is powerful enough to have its respect.)
Going above that, the mage better have a good explanation (or incentive) ready to appease the Spirit to not attempt to break free.

So asking a powerful Beast Spirit to beat stuff up won't be much of a problem, while asking a powerful Fire Spirit to just guard something will cause EGS => "Extreme Grumpiness Syndrome"

During our 3 year campaign no Force 7+ Binding has been attempted.

...And dropped by 2 to 3 shots of Stick-N-Shock ammo.

That's like the Dark Lord Sauron being tazed to the ground. It's just retarded.

And what about a Christian theurge, who prays to God for a servant to help him, and the binding mats are actually incence and prayers/Bible verses written on papers that are burned? And when the Angel (read: spirit) appears (sent by God), the mage thanks the Angel for coming to his aid?

And when he spot-summons, he prays for deliverance and thanks God when the F10 Combat Angel (fire) comes to his rescue?

Would they resist summoning with Edge as well?

Possibly. "God moves in mysterious ways" after all...

I don't really have a preference one way or the other yet on this point, as spirits are pretty low key in our game. I will say the general discussion of high Force spirits kinda makes me wish (from a background/coolness point of view) that there were Ritual Summoning/Ritual Binding skills.

You mean Teamwork tests? Yeah, they exist. All you'd need is a group of Hermetics doing a Teamwork Summoning to try and get a F12 spirit, and then a Teamwork Binding to get him to stay.

No, I actually meant Ritual skills, but I suppose what you're suggesting works.

Note also I was talking more fluff than crunch. If I was looking for a more rules oriented theory I probably would have suggested some way that Ritual Summoning/Binding was different than normal, other than simply adding dice.

Which depends entirely on the power level of your campaign.
If a force x spirit would unbalance everything in you campaign then as a gm you better make sure that the summoning fails, especially since burning edge let's players do things they wouldn't do otherwise because they'd either fail or die trying.
That's also not limited to magic. If some sammy tries to build a nuke because he has all skills needed and contacts for the uranium you better don't allow it as well for example.

I have no intention of striaght up NERFing the mage for summoning spirits. I'm just trying to find ways to handle a force six spirit without having to throw a Mage in every fight. I don't want to dump 10 ghouls on it and then have the spirit gone and 10 ghouls turning to attack the 3 Runners standing behined it. I'm also not sure the mage would survive a ghoul with an ak98 full of APDS ammo after it cuts his spirit in half.

Somehow I don't see a Guardian spirit resisting with edge being summed into a fire fight, a guidance spirit resisting being summoned to instruct the caster or a task spirit being summoned to fix the casters car.

That was Awesome...

I am sorry, But I have never seen that happen in our game...

Of Course, You Mileage may vary...

Depends... If higher than 4+, Probably, unless he has done more than pay the lip service to the tradition and its methods... Lots of people attend church, that does not make them devout...

Where did that come from... Most mages I have seen Rarely to NEVER pay the spirit in Mana (or Karma)... That is generally only for the Free Spirits... and yes, that is how they get better...
But general lackey spirit summoned to fight for you... probably not gonna get any mana from the summoner...

Just My Two Cents

If the Theurge summons it to help him in a break and entry run to steal the blueprints for a new weapon from Ares to give it them to Aztechnology, the Angel will tell the him/her to get lost.

It happens in our games all the time, so yes mileage may vary. APDS do a fairly nice job as well.

I think the claim is that the drain is mana being paid. The drain test is the negotiation on how much mana is being paid. I have never seen anyhting in the rules to support this idea, but it may be in the fluff somewhere and I missed it.

Seems to me if that were the case, a lot of spirits are gonna steal them some mages, take them home and use them as mana batteries indefinitely... I don't know... Just seems wrong to me...

BUT...
I guess that that is possible.. Makes a little sense, not much, but a little...
I have not even seen any Fluff regarding that interpretation, however...
I always saw the drain from summoning equal to the drain of spellcasting... pushing your body to the limits of what it is possible magically always exerts a toll on the body, in this case, damage whether through exaustion (stun) or through Internal Damage to brain/body (Physical)...

Just My Two Cents

But according to the rules, once successfully summoned, there is no discourse... it is for all intents and purposes a slave to the summoner until services have been rendered...

SO... either the spirit resists initially, or after serving this once, goes home and tells his friends that the summoner breaks all the rules, and then all other spirits resist with all that they are worth... End Result, Spritis will begin to resist with Edge...

So... I am not sure what your point would be in that instance... You would be enforcing an ingame resolution to the summoner's actions...which is what we do to start with by default...

Yes, APDS IS a wonderful equalizer... When you can get it of course

And considering how rare/illegal they are, every tom, dick and harry should likely not be packing them.

If he wanted to literally Burn the Sin away from him ...

Don't then. In the end you have TOTAL CONTROL on what goes on behind the screen. If the spirit that is summoned is rocking the cat box with the 4 ghouls you intended to be the obstacle in the way, add a few more to menace the group that come from a different direction. That way, they all get a little action, and the mage doesn't feel gimped. Another idea is adding a non combat issue for the players to deal with. After the ghouls are dealt with, maybe the players might find a "holding pen" of SINless the ghouls were holding for later consumption. Just a little diversion to get the other players involved.

This is what worked for me. The player decided he was getting bored with his summoner, and moved on to a different character.

Sure APDS is hard to get. But I have no problem equipping any lone star team I'd see as a threat to the runners with it. And again stick and shock is spirit bane and it has an availability of 5R, its really easy to get.

Well, what did the player tell you when you told him that he shouldn't summon spirits that often for the sake of playability?