You throw spirits against mages, not mages against spirits. The reason is because of critter powers, which are not subject to counterspelling. At force 8 a single spirit will Critter Power a mage into unconsciousness in one round (foce 6 is close behind).

Taking care of spirits is the job of your gunbunny (or other damage dealer). A Force 6 spirit is not that hard to deal with: it only has 12 hardened armor. Getting 12 raw damage (not burst bonus) isn't terribly difficult (and you need less damage per point of armor piercing).

Yes, anything that takes out a spirit is going to be trouble for the party, but this is a good thing. It forces them to think, and maybe even run away and re-think their strategy. Also keep in mind that anything that takes out their spirits should be taking damage, so even if the spirit is dead, the thing (or things) that killed it aren't going to be in good shape.

Probably consider letting the amount of ghouls you intended to confront the players directly with sneak past the ghost (or come from behind) and attack them.
The ghost will still be taking out many ghouls so the mage won't think that it is useless but the other members of the team get to do some dice rolling as well.

Turn one
One Spirit 10 Ghouls, 9 ghouls threatening PCs

Turn 2
One Spirit 9 Ghouls, 8 Ghouls threateningPCs

Turn 3
One Spirit 8 Ghouls, 7 ghouls threateningPCs

Turn 4
Ons Spirit 7 Ghouls, 6 Ghouls threateningPCs

etc...

It can even last longer if the ghouls take a little longer to take out of the fight if they do things like go to full defense

so, crunching some #s (buying hits):

turn one spirit kills one ghoul with elemental attack.
ghoul 9 attacks w/+4 = 10 dice vs. the spirits 14. ghoul takes 6P.
ghoul 8 =10 vs 13. ghoul takes 6P.
ghoul 7= 10 vs 12. ghoul takes 6P.
ghoul 6-3= nothing happens or ghoul takes 5P
ghoul 2 and 1= deal 4p to no effect.
spirit goes again and kills another ghoul.

so whats that? two turns before they're dead? the ghouls retreat after one, then the spirit hunts them down.

I agree with sneaking around to attack the PC's, but I can't believe how powerful spirits are. my mage took one box of drain summoning this thing and still has 3 tasks remaining. the only reason the party even went in was because our group's fighters were bored. I thought the dark conditions and high infiltration made the ghouls a good challenge. and it's going to work ok, but I end up having to cheat a little. It seems when you have a mage and a rigger. things have to happen on a grand scale to keep it interesting.

also, if a mage goes unconscious, does the spirit keep preforming its task?

Slight error in your calculations. Unless the spirit is somehow an adept with the counterattack power, all those ghouls take 0P, as the defender in melee combat does not automatically strike back such as they did in prior editions.

I.E. If I am a ghoul, and I hit you with 1 success, and you defend with 9,000 successes, I still take no damage. You're just really, really well defended.

Also, if I were those ghouls? I'd be spending some edge. Every ghoul spends an edge, because they can be pretty sure that spirit will rock the shit out of them if they don't swarm it and take it down. Even if the spirit spends edge to counter them, it runs out after 6 edge, leaving 3 remaining edge-spenders attacking it. And they may have edge stats above 1, as well.

What!? I re read the rules for melee, and... it doesn't seem to specify either way, the fluff lead me to believe that either person could be hurt in the attack. can I get a qoute on this?? you're blowin my mind.

There is no counter attack damage. That's previous editions.

Also, look at the full dodge rules for the defender. The ghouls do not need to attack the spirit to occupy it sufficiently.

Really, the spirit can take longer then 1 turn to kill a single ghoul.

Also take a look the friends in melee modifiers. If 4+ ghouls are together in melee versus the spirit they will all get bonuses.

A spitit could have elemental Aura, which would do DV to whomever attacked, but the ghouls doesn't need to attack, just go to full defense when attacked.

my mind is blown. this is my 1st campaign in 4th ed (if you couldn't tell). I guess I just assumed melee was a series of maneuvers from both sides. and not "you punch me then I punch you". but rule wise, it sounds like you puch me, then I punch you. the max bonus on friends in melee is +4 , so they probably won't ever hurt the spirit. the spirit in question has elemental attack and concealment. So, its looking like Big daddy ghoul gets an assault riflr w/ APDS and my close combat phys ad is going to scrap her characterwhen i tell her she only does damage on attack.

I meant that the Angel will use edge, which will most likely send the summoner to hell.

Or she needs the Adept Counterstike power, or the Riposte marital arts maneuver. Granted, both those eat up passes, but there is no free melee attacks.

Also, melee is a series of manuvers from both sides. It's just that whomevers turn it is, is the one pressing the advantage, and the other person has to concentrate on defense, unless they have special training.

Also, the Ghouls don't need a assault rifle with APDS. A Machine Pistol or SMG loaded with Stick-N-Shock works much better, doesn't cost nearly as much, and takes out force 6+ spirts more effectively. 6s AP -1/2 takes care of them quickly, as spirits only have 1 damage track. A narrow long burst does something like 12s with a single net hit, and a force 6 spirit has at most 16 dice to resist. Two Narrow long bursts can make a spirit go away very quickly.

In this case, I would agree with you whole heartedly...

You know... I keep hearing a lot on the "Use Stick and Shock" dogma... And I have a question...

Per the rules for Immunity it states on page 288 of the BBB:
"A critter with Immunity has an enhanced resistance to a certain type of attack or affliction. the Critter gains an "Armor Rating" equal to twice its Magic against that damage. this immunity is treated as "hardened protection", meaning that if the damage value does not exceed teh armor (prior to Burst or Automatic fire modifiers), then the attack automatically does no damage.

Immunity to Normal Weapons:
"This immunity applies to all weapons that are not magical (weapon Foci, Spells, Adept or Critter Powers). IF the critter has the allergy weakness, then the immunity does not apply against non-magical attacks using the allergen."

Now... Looking on page 154 (the combat section of the BBB, Electricity Damage).. Nowhere does it say that the WEAPON damage caused by the Stick and Shock is MAGICAL...

Therefore the spirits Double armor would apply and then would be halved (for a total Armor rating of the Spirit's Force to compare against the damage inflicted)... Also, when comparing the amount of damage agains teh Immunity of the Armor, you do not include any of the modifiers for Burst/Autofire as they do not count to the damage inflicted for comparison purposes against the Hardened Armor... Now sure, for a spirit of lower force levels (5 and less) you may indeed hurt it... but I do not see it as the cure all for High Force Spirits that APDS ammo could possibly represent...

Also... the damage value of a Stick and Shock - 6s(e) replaces damage for the weapon itself (page 313 of the BBB), so if that is correct, placement means absolutely nothing and additional hits would not add additional damage, as the impact from the round is INCONSEQUENTIAL to the damage inflicted. Such that any Force 6 or higher spirit would IGNORE the damage as it does not exceed their modified Armor rating for comparisons.

Is there any errata that changes this, because if not, then Stick and Shock WILL NOT HARM Spirits of Force 6 or Higher, Ever...

I could be wrong, but that is the RAW...

Thanks

I read as the Stick N Shock replaces the weapons base damage with it's own, not the entirety of the damage dealt. It's just a taser in a bullet, and net hit from taser attacks increase the damage you deal. Net hits represent better placement, and tasers don't have a rule that net hits don't increase damage, after all. A hit to your neck from a taser will do more to incapacitate you then a hit to the hand, after all, and I don't see Stick N Shock functioning any differently .

Perhaps... Okay, But you are still gonna need incrementing number of successes based upon the Force of the Spirit (ie, 1 Net for Force 6, 5 Net for Force 10... Good Luck) for it to have ANY effect at all... Hardly the univversal Antidote to Spirits of high force...

You are right about it not being the universal antidote to spirits. That is a mage with a Stunball spell. It's just that SnS from a automatic weapon is a good, low cost countermeasure for midrange spirits. There are better answers, such as a 121 with APDS or a Thunderstruck.

The Gauss Rifle is particularly nasty. -1/2-4 AP Takes hardend Armor down from 20 to 6, and then your looking at 10p minimum, soaked with maybe 20 dice?

No, I'm not bitter at the heavy weapons Adept for Taking down a Yama king in 1 pass.

well, he was really damn lucky on that shot, and he just had a ridiculous dice pool

These things happen, even to the best of them

With wide bursts the spirit is frequently reduced to virtually no dodge dice, so 4 net hits is well within the range of normal. Now the spirit can likely reduce that down a bunch, but 2 3 guys can drop a spirit quickly with wide bursts. Also the taser starts at 8s so a single net hit damages a force 8 spirit, and that is a fairly hefty spirit. Now like virtually every extreme in this edition a min/maxed conjuring specialist who routinely conjures force 10 spirits is a real pita. I likewise hate dealing with 20+ dice pool elves in automatics.

That is definitely True... Though you still have to HIT the Force 8 Spirit with the Tazer...




And No Joke... Of Course, I have been playing a while, and I guess in my grouip we are very lucky... I have yet to actually see this mythical elf with the 20+ Dice pool for Automatics... Our average Combat Dice Pools sit around the 12 Dice range with the Spread Being 9-14 Dice. Now with a good Edge, this goes up some , but it is just not done in our games much... we like the challenge of a well run game with verisimilitude, and consistent characters with 20+ Dice pools in combat skills is (aside from stretching Verisimilitude) just making it exceedingly more difficult for the GM to keep the setting real...

After all, I have a character (Physical Adept) that is almost at 400 karma (a very old characte), and NONE of his skills are above a professional Rating of 3... though in all fairness, he does have a LOT of skills... He is a fairly high grade initiate (Grade but he still has to take things into consideration because the world is STILL a threat... As it should be... and he is even capable of running with Characters with starting Builds (400 BP, some of which have better dicepools than he himself does) as he is not overpowering (though he Does have a great deal of skill breadth and depth)...

This is the thing that I really like about SR4 (and Anniversary SR4A), there is no lack of things to purcahse with Karma, and characters, assuming that they avoid the Gross Power Creap (20-30+ Dice in Attacks, 40+ Dice to Resist) that is common in a lot of Roleplaying games (Shadowrun in particular), are viable for a very long time in a mixed campaign environment.

Any Way... Just My Two Cents

I was talking with my GM yesterday about why SnS is so good against spirits, which in turn makes it extremely effective against just about anything else (being electrical damage it fucks up drones and vehicles too!) and it comes down to its "AP -half."

What I off-handedly proposed was that SnS takes a normal AP modifier (say -1), but bypasses ItNW by dealing "elemental damage, which is resisted by Impact Armor (Spirt's Force) + Electrical Resistence."

Against a human target this is generally effective: 6 damage + net hits is usually enough to get someone wearing the medium to medium-heavy armors, electrical resist factoring in however it factors in (does it add directly to the armor value for comparison purposes? Or does it just add dice? I'm not actually sure) but it's not overpoweringly awesome.

Against a spirit it retains that effective "AP -half" from the ItNW that it currently has (keeping it at "the mundane's answer to spirits") and against drones and vehicles it has to bypass their high armor, but does significant fucking-up if it does (SnS shouldn't effect cars, ever: staying in your car during a lightning storm is one of THE smartest things you can do, in SR this is reflected by their double-digit armor value: SnS won't have enough successes to penetrate to something critical).