I definitely agree with this. Though I do know that the Flash pipe dream of mine would be a little more restricted, the initial version I've conjured up in my head would pretty much only allow you to play as some form of non-magical combat character due to the easy of building the underlying engine. Social would be built in on top (sorta menu-esque RPGs of the early 90s: chat interface with options kind of deal). Legwork would be minimized for the particular audience I'd be catering for (few choices, no "wide open sandbox" wandering around).

Magic would come next, requiring some base engine upgrades to support non-combat spells in combat (Invisibility, etc), though most of the engine would already be equipped to handle magic as just a flashier version of the things tech already does.

The Matrix interaction would come way late and probably end up being the Rigger of 3e than anything. Legwork might be "upgraded" to include "searching around on the net" plus some other hacking obstacles (unlocking doors, disabling cameras and the like--minor, if present).

Ideally it would be a co-op game and legwork / other menus would be done as a polling option: the game progresses towards whichever option was most popular (if a tie, then random between tied options). But as a single player game the Player would be one character with a couple helper NPCs.

Personally I would love to see what Bethsoft would do with a Shadowrun game.

Fallout 3 + TESIV: Oblivion + Deus Ex (I know that's not Bethsoft but work with me)

I think this would be tragically close to my perfect SR4. Bethesda is great at making /static/ worlds. While their crew is amazing it hasn't (yet) demonstrated the ability to make a reactive game, and that is something SR absolutely must have ... IMO

Yes. Gimme.

Really though, I don't think runs could be done in the same world/zone that everyone else exist. For the WoW players, think of the way phases/layers work in Icecrown. Maybe even instanced areas like WoW dungeons.

I think a Shadowrun MMO could be done, but not with today's standard MMO formula.

I'd prefer an awesome single person or small group game to a MMO, but even a MMO would rock if done well. What is weird is they have a fluff excuse for the immortality that mmo characters seem to have through doc wagon. You could have death penalties that get lighter as you advance your doc wagon contract.

Bethesda might be a good choice but I've been disappointed in there recent games. On the surface they are fun, but they don't have any lasting appeal to me. Oblivion cool after some mods that took away there lame difficulty mechanic. Fallout might be the same but I got it on a 360 so I have not been looking for mods. I really can't put my finger on it, but oblivion and fallout just did not have the same soul that morrowwind did.

The legwork could be handled trought matrix contacts (even if the option of meeting some in the "fleshworld" would add to the game), you make the call and chat a little, contacts could also be in need of a hand from time to time; than sometimes they could be interested in actualy meeting the Player Character, this would add time sensitive events and would help to develop relationship with NPCs (especialy love interests).
Speaking of the Matrix, it would allow to actualy integrate the gamers chat into the game, you log in shadowland and open the general chat, than there are personal messages, chat windows betwen two or more users, filesharing (of in game files, not realworld files), virtual market places, forums, reputation charts (so that assholes get singled out), escrow services, databases, shadow.wiki, virtual auctions, dating services (to have a distopian version of second life), etc.; it would allow the players to have access to many functions present in many MMORPGs (and potentialy much more) in a way that is consistent with the setting, the only problem is that on the matrix are exchanged countless of data dispite any copyright law, it's impossible to reproduce that (you have to either produce new video/audio/whatever file, face legal actions from the holder of the copyrights or give up) and some content would cause some eyebrows to raise (can you put pornografy in an MMO game?). All in all the matrix has the potential of having a much greater impact on the MMO than the PnP as it the PnP it's just said that the matrix has milions of uses, but it's confusing and it endes being used at only a fraction of its potential, while in the MMO it would allow the player to access so much content that it would come alive for what it should be.
Astral space is trickier, how do you represent an astral impression?

Like I said, a lot of things I haven't worked out yet. The "first iteration" would lack those things entirely.

The things that realy matter for a SR game being SR game are NERPS, how do you plan to implement them?

NERPS?

LMFAO!!!

It's the Talkenator widget. I'm using "NoScript" on Firefox. When I enabled t8r3.info, the chat window became available and firefox slowed down dramatically. I blocked it again and it sped right back up.

Carl

Generally, instanced "runs" throu fixers, player apartments with all the "vanity bling" you can think of, Pimped out cars/vans etc.

You start out in seattle.
First expansion Hong Kong.
Second expansion south america.
Third expansion afrika,
etc etc..
Target location ftw..

Seriously, I think that a lvl less shadowrun would work very well it should probably be a mix of FPS and skills, kinda like fallout is. Tho I am biased towards 3rd person. Skills would have a incremental cost throu the non linear curve until it just doesnt pay to sink karma into the skill/stat/magic etc..

Problem would be how to balance the PvP combat tho. You dont want Magic to rule, but neither do you want Sams to rule. The game would be more about dodging and taking cover than soaking massive ammounts of dmg and getting healed (like 99% of the MMO's out there today) And certain instances, you should have runner vs runner teams, BUT, one team plays the Corp SWAT teams (Kind of like Monster Play in LOTRO). And ofc, guilds would be gangs battling over the dead zones outside seattle, while the inner city would be patroled and a no PvP zone, where ppl can go and bling bling, no obvious weapons etc or lonestar gets you, bring a knife, a gun sure.. but a LMG is a nogo.. You fire the gun once, you got about 30 seconds to 1 minute before lonestar gets there, so run and hide and pray they dont have a drone on your tail. oooh.. so much potential !!

Meta plot would be corps battling eachother as allways. NO dragonslaying in this game!

Oh thanks a lot.
Will read that rather long blog when i have some time on hands.

If you were going to have any PvP, you'd want it to be like Dark Age of Camelot, with specific PvP zones. I'm thinking something like a few instanced dungeons where two groups both get the mission at the same time, and once in the facility go PvP, as well as a Mercenary Wars expansion so you can fly to a desert area and go PvP at enemies for cash and prizes, getting more prizes for more impressive things.

JaronK

Did you play LOTRO... it has amazing single player elements (Like npcs you just did quests for dying on you). I think it would take the right design team willing to push the edge of what defines an MMO even more than LOTRO or City of Heroes did. And then your talking such a small group of people I'm not sure it would make $

Single player Deus Ex like game would generate better revenue.

I've never been a huge fan of MMOs, despite being hooked on WoW for a few months. The only type of SR game I see working is either an open-ended action RPG ala TES: Oblivion (or Fallout 3), or a story driven RPG like Deus Ex. I'd prefer a Deus Ex style game, even though it would ultimately be linear. It would just need some really good voice actors and writers.

Maybe it's better making it a cooperative multiplayer, the competitive PvP aspect could be implemented like combat simulators on the matrix, in this way you can have arenas, big weapons and general havock without disrupting the flow of the setting; another option is the Miracle Shooter^TM. Yet I have to admit that the idea of playing as Corp security isn't that bad.

Naah, PvP without ingame consequenses are meaningless imho. PvP would be restricted to barrens tho. And MMO's are nowdays CoOp imho, we all use teamspeak etc etc, the game just doesnt require you to be THAT tactical wich you would hope a shadowrun MMO would, especially if you sometimes end up vs another runner team(prime runners) and not allways vs rating 2 guards.. =)

well, SRO/6WG seems to be pretty much dead these days, sad as it is ._.

Is it bad to use search than necromancy on the thread you find?

I was just curious, since I could have sworn I came across something suggesting there was a Shadowrun 4th MMO in the works on The Escapist or something: Is that still in the works for Catalyst or whoever?

As far as the discussion I was reading through here, I would suggest looking for articles on how things turned out for various MMOs that have now gone by the wayside and the few that are still up and running:
- Matrix Online
- Planetside
- Anarchy Online
- D&D Online
- LotR Online

I would like to note that the D&D Online and LotR Online are still going and have very loyal subscribers, as can be attested to by some online contests for fan voted favourite Developer I know they have been involved with on The Escapist.

Also, note that IIRC there is also a Fallout MMO in development. Those familiar with the character creation in the 3 games has some similarities with Build Points in SR4: Attributes, Skills, and Qualities.

To my newbie SR4 self, the most important aspect to any SR game is the ability to keep the open ended character creation Build Point system. Next up I would say that Goal Based Experience is the next most important aspect - this involves giving rewards based on the accomplishment of goals, not how those goals are accomplished, thus there should be no 'right' way to play the game. Next, I would suggest that there would need to be quick way to do extended tests in real time, then to make use of something like the slow motion the used for the Fallout 3 combat from the PiPboy 3000 targeting system I think it was called to account for the turn based nature of combat, even the use of Initiative Passes and Combat Turns (Free/Simple/Complex Actions). Next up I would hope that personal space was really important: Lifestyle costs, Team Personalized Headquarters, Gang Territory, Corp Territory, Developing Contacts, etc.

ACTUALLY the Fallout CharGen was more or less the Gurps System. But they were dumb and rejected it because it was too violent for their tastes.
There's practically no activity in the 6WG Boards. They were the ones who started on a SR MMO. But they got C&Ded by MicroDreck.
Now they are, according to some rumors, working on a more Gibson/Neuromancer Cyberpunk Game. But as i said, pretty much dead by now.
Will have to dig around on The Escapist or something. Never heard of that before. I ain't no big fan of MMO's myself, but damn it, i would have shelled out time and money for one in the SR World <.<
Or for WH40K MMO ^^

The only people still playing D&D online are either those that haven't gotten to higher levels yet, or are the people who don't mind the following:

Dungeon (setting: some crazy god's mind)
Fall off the edge: death
1 Character death: fail mission
Traps (cannot be disarmed): push character off edge

Oh, here, i forgout about this one:
http://awakenedmmo.org/

Oops, my mistake, it may have only been some silly rumor but the rumor was started (for me anyways) by this (look at the last paragraph) dated last year, so its probably old news:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/...ms-Closing-Down

But other than that, from various forum threads at gaming sites, it seems like next to D&D, Shadowrun is one of the most recognizable franchises that gamers would be interested in playing a RPG or MMORPG based on. It really deserves far better treatment than it got from the FPS that was done of it, though there was a funny series of machinema done by the same guys who did Red vs Blue using it: http://magic.roosterteeth.com/archive/?sid=magic

Yeah, it's pretty Sad that some Fans are seemingly the only ones who want to try to make this real.
Smith and tinker did a flash game ala pokemon with the Target Audience being 8-10 years old.
Smith and tinker are the people who, right now, have the rights to use the Shadowrun and Battletech IP.
At least, in terms of electronical usage. Everything paper related is in the hands of Catalyst Games Labs.
Or in germany, Pegasus Games. Yeah, no, i don't know why the Corporation sounds like Yu Gi Oh either.

Er, how do I not sound mean about those screen shots and preview video... I understand that is a work in progress but it doesn't inspire one with confidence. Are they officially licensed or is that like a fan project? If it is a fan project rather than a commercial venture, I can forgive it of a lot, like I do with mods for PC games ... unless it likes to crash to desktop or freeze up a lot. I loved playing Natural Selection mod for Half-Life and am very curious to see how Unknown Worlds does with its commercial venture of that property with Natural Selection 2, http://www.naturalselection2.com/, now that has a nice promo/preview video. Sven Coop, that was a nice mod too, had a number of maps that make me think of Shadowrun too, though combat heavy obviously. There was even this mod for Half-Life 2 that screams Shadowrun, even had a "matrix", what was it called again ... oh, here it is, Dystopia : http://www.dystopia-game.com/

Nope, that's Fanstuff.
And yeah, they don't look good.
6WG had a playable Pre Alpha.

Well given the "success" of MS's Shadowrun online FPS, and the fact that it is FASA/MS (not sure which one anymore) that own the rights to all digital versions of the game I don't think we'll see one anytime soon. Also, Matrix Online was generally not a success. It peaked at about 50K active subscriptions and declined to 30K by essentially the end of its life. (source: http://www.mmogchart.com). If there is any chance of SR having an MMORPG you'd need to look a the success of the upcoming "All Points Bulletin" to see how that does. They'll have decently similar markets.

Actually, right now, the electronic Rights are at Smith and tinker, as far as i remember.

The reason I brought up some of those MMOs is at least partly because they are no longer around. Not all of their lack of success was due to gameplay or setting. There are a lot of intellectual properties IMHO that suffer from lack of support on the marketing, continued content support beyond launch, and customer service.

Oh, and it would be ideal with a SR4 MMO was done with the payment model for Guild Wars, but the monthly subscription model seems more standard for that part of the gaming industry, unfortunately.

to hell with that Noise.
I would probably Pay even if i was not playing the SR MMO just to keep it going . . .

Oh, that's not what I meant, its just that it is possible that having a particular payment plan can open you up to a larger casual market who can justify a one time expenditure but not necissarily an ongoing bill in addition to their ISP tele-cable / electrical / infrastructure bill. It is not usually discussed with regards to games but having lower system requirements will open up your number of possible customers as well, especially internationally, though your screen shots / promo videos aren't going to impress the smaller niche market who want to run your game at max settings on their $3000+ super computer gaming rig. To me buying Guild Wars and its expansions would be a bit like buying the Core Rule and Expansion Flavour books of a Pen & Paper game.

Games like WoW like to brag about their large numbers of subscriptions, but what they are less honest about is that they aren't showing the numbers by geographical location (aka what kind of ping a player can get to the server) and they aren't exactly disclosing how many of those numbers are now expired subscriptions (aka the player no longer plays [pays] the game but their character(s) are saved for a while). Games with fewer servers placed around the world are just going to have a smaller total subscription numbers, but they also have to deal with fewer logistical costs in maintaining those servers around the world. WoW China plays alot differently than WoW West Coast USA or WoW East Coast USA, that sort of thing *shrug*

That's got to be the single most exact analog i have heard about that as of yet O.o

Also, i am one of those 3000+$ Computer-People *g*

Mark me down in the "single-player open-world" column. I have no faith whatsoever in the ability of any developer to make an MMO (or any publisher to allow the creation of an MMO) that doesn't degenerate into a grind. A new Shadowrun video game would be awesome, but only in certain formats.

I wouldn't mind a "single player open world plus co-op capability," myself. That way you can team up with your buddies and go do jobs, but you don't have to deal with every hyperactive thirteen year old and jobless thirty-something with nothing better to do but grind all day...

Meh, you don't have to do this in most MMOs now anyway. I've gone for weeks on WoW without interacting with other people.

@CW: Actually WoW does have that many ACTIVE subscribers. It is something of a "fluke" in MMOs -- most of the others aren't looking to be "WoW-killers." That link I posted counts active subscriptions (ie. people paying monthly) not just people who bought the box. You are correct in stating that they don't show the geographical base for the games. Most of the MMO industry is focused on Asia since that market is nearly limitless for MMOs. WoW is estimated to have about 4-6 million of their players in China alone. So speaking in terms of North America/Europe it isn't nearly as massive (since Korea is also a huge chunk of the market).

A Shadowrun MMO could probably eke along at 30,000 active subscribers but that is such a low amount that no one probably wants to bother. If you can get to around 300,000 you are pretty successful.

An MMO? Hell no! I actually like Shadowrun, see?

(Local Nodes) JasonMFNBourne is broadcasting : LF lvl40 PhysAd/MysAd 4 BC/RenArc run.

(Jackpoint) CharginMuhLaz0r says: 400 DPS melee SS LFT.

(Jackpoint) AnonymousLegion says: lol melee sammy n00b lol.

Picture that, forever, while Lone Star beat cops seemingly shoot at you for existing - because everybody uses wildly illegal weaponry to save on Palming and fake credentials.

Now, a Shadowrun game based on the Jagged Alliance series? Yes, absolutely.

I can see it now... Redmond Barrens becomes the new "Barrens". Barrens Chat under the same name even. Hillarious!

Back to the topic at hand -
I'm definitely not for an MMO. I am strictly a casual gamer. MMOs and casual gaming don't mix (and yes I've tried, so it is an informed opinion).

- J.

As a disclaimer, I did not actually read the thread, but Meatbag pretty much sums up my feelings on the subject, with the following addition, a MMO that stayed true to Shadowrun wouldn't play very well as you could not have any classes, levels, ect AND there is no way in hell that you could appease both the Pink Mohawks and the Ice Cold Pros.

*EDIT*

OK, read the thread, and my opinion has not changed.

QFT. Unfortunately the turn-based games are largely going the way of the dodo. Not sure you want to develop a niche game for a niche game. It would be pointless to make an SR video game if it isn't going to pull new blood in.


Edit: Should also remind people that there is likely a new Syndicate game on the way so the success of that would give us a clue as to whether anyone else will give SR another try.

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of playing an MMO to begin with?

Only in spirit. WoW is pretty fun to explore alone.

Yeah. I drew a lot of flak on the Warhammer Online boards for claiming that WAR was more successful than WoW because I actually want to play WAR with other people. Whereas in WoW I wish they'd fuck off and die. Nothing more frustrating than getting to the murderplace and finding 4 other people farming the same creature you are.

I play WoW occasionally and I have no idea what the hell you just said.

I remember the first time I tried to play an online game, it was rainbow six. I got onto a server thing, and then the others in the room/server/whatever finished their mission/map/whatever and decided to load up something I had never heard of. I politely asked to what they were refering. One of them responded "are u a n00b?" I responded "What is a 'n00b'?" The next thing I knew I had been ejected from the server. It was years before I tried anything like that again. I just don't hold truck with this gol-durn 'l337' stuff.

Ouch. Yes, many people in online games are douchebags, and on behalf of all sane people, I apologize that your first experience sucked so badly.

Shadowrun will never truly work as a video game for two reasons:
Illusion spells
Manipulation spells.

A GM can cope with all the crazy inventive use of open ended powers. A computer can't.
While it is true that rougelike games are extremely deep in terms of what you can do, it's still not human grade.

I know doing crazy shit with magic is where I derive a lot of my fun in SR, reducing spells to a list of pre-recorded effects would kill that.

Slotting in I337 Linguasoft!

1: Looking for level 40 Physical/Mystic Adept for Bug City/Renraku Arcology run.

2: 400 damage-per-second melee Street Samurai looking for team.

3: Don't you know that melee street samurai are inefficient? You must be new.

This kind've bullshit is everywhere, and if you've managed to avoid it, I consider you very lucky.

Heck, i don't even PLAY any MMO's and i STILL understood it . . how sad is that? <.<

didn't even bother to try understanding it
Not the WoW i play. I tend to stick to RP servers

I think that Shadowrun is far too cinematic, in my mind, to ever be made into a MMORPG. A multiplayer game, sure, but not a MMO.

My perfect Shadowrun game would probably look closer to a mixture of Fallout and Mass Effect than anything. Multiplayer elements would allow you to join up with others and form an actual Shadowrun team. Possible strong modding communities or actual GM tools a la NWN would make for that P&P feel.

I just don't personally think that SR can be accurately translated to a MMO setting simply because it is a singular entity; it's not about killing, leveling up, or getting UBERGEAR. It's abou subtlety, subterfuge, cyberpunk, and... okay, yeah, trolls with miniguns. But still.