Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Spellcasting and gestures/spoken formulas
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Malachi @ Apr 14 2009, 01:00 PM) *
The Shamanic Mask is an optional way to have your character's spellcasting be noticeable. For your character, you can have their method of Spellcasting be gestures, spoken word, shamanic mask, some other sort of "visual manifestation," or any combination of the previous.


or none of the above because unless you have gease or centering hand motions, speech or some other sign are actually not required.
toturi
QUOTE (LamplightSlasher @ Apr 15 2009, 01:16 AM) *
That actually seems pretty clear cut. I know I will be requiring mages in my own game to make some kind of visible 'gesture'.

The magical effect may not be visible, a manabolt thus being invisible upon casting and until impact with the target, but the gestures required to cast them are still physical.

That's good. But what constitutes a gesture? A tilt of the head, a squint of the eye, a motion with a finger? Any of the hundreds of minute gestures you make when in a firefight?

As my mage tilts his head to gain to peer down the sight of his pistol, his finger tightens around the trigger of the gun, he whispers,"Pew, pew!" when he casts the spell.

Or my favorite - the "Me Troll Mage" tactic or its numerous sister variants "Me Shapeshifter Mage", "Me Somehow Immune to Normal Weapons Mage" to name a few. Geek the mage first, if you can. Else you'd might have hurt more of them shadowrunners instead of wasting ammo on the mage.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Kev @ Apr 14 2009, 04:16 PM) *
The funny thing is that a lot of that is just fluff, not game mechanic. Magic is like any other skill; you'll always perform it how you learn it. If people learn division by writing it out, then they'll naturally write it out when they need to do division. If you learn magic by concentrating and asking the spirits in Creole to lend you their strength, then TA-DA, that's what you'll do. But that's not the necessary part of magic; only the concentration and molding of mana is important, much like in division where the only thing necessary is the mathematical operations to acheive the result.

In my book, people notice magic due to the magician's intense concentration; perhaps they chant under their breath, or their eyes roll back slightly; whatever. When the spells cross the magical FORCE 6 threshold, well... then the air around the mage starts rippling, and you feel the mana being channeled and shaped around them.

Exactly.


QUOTE (paws2sky @ Apr 14 2009, 02:55 PM) *
Not hard, even for Bob the Pedestrian to spot. And while Force 5 is very beefy, its hardly what I'd call immensely powerful.

Not exactly - we will assume Bob is on the higher end of average, with a 3 Intuition. No Perception skill - he's just some guy.

So, we have 3 - 1 (defaulting) -2 (not actively observing) = 0. Unless he has vision enhancements (which are cheap, but 'that guy' is unlikely to have them), he will not notice spellcasting without GM fiat; aka -14 Threshold (Force 20) should be noticeable as long as you have some form of sensory abilities & are on the same block.
paws2sky
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Apr 15 2009, 04:44 AM) *
Not exactly - we will assume Bob is on the higher end of average, with a 3 Intuition. No Perception skill - he's just some guy.

So, we have 3 - 1 (defaulting) -2 (not actively observing) = 0. Unless he has vision enhancements (which are cheap, but 'that guy' is unlikely to have them), he will not notice spellcasting without GM fiat; aka -14 Threshold (Force 20) should be noticeable as long as you have some form of sensory abilities & are on the same block.


Okay, fine, Bob was a bad example.

For anyone else who's not completely oblivious to their surroundings, like Bob apparently is, you're going to have a reasonable chance of noticing a Force 5 spell. Even if you get down to DP 1, that's a 50/50 shot.

-paws
Malachi
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Apr 14 2009, 11:54 PM) *
or none of the above because unless you have gease or centering hand motions, speech or some other sign are actually not required.

But spellcasting is noticeable (as has been quoted in the rules), so the Magician must do something in order to make Spellcasting noticeable. If you don't want your mage to gesture, hand wave, or manifest the shamanic mask, then their magic creates a more noticeable "physical" effect on the world: wind rushing, visual distortions, distinctive smell, etc. The book lays out the crunchy rules for noticing spellcasting, there is no option to make your mage's magic "unnoticeable."
Draco18s
I'd like to point out that by RAW it's easier to notice magic being cast in ShadowRun than it is in D&D where the mage has to do jumping jacks while shouting jibberish. By RAW D&D rules a fighter with a rank in Perception and a +1 from stat rolls his d20 versus a target number of 15 + spell level (he needs a 13 to notice a 0th level spell). And he can't even identify the spell unless he has Spellcraft (another 15+spell level TN).
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Malachi @ Apr 15 2009, 08:31 AM) *
But spellcasting is noticeable (as has been quoted in the rules), so the Magician must do something in order to make Spellcasting noticeable.

No. Look at ritual casting, even mundanes can feel a large enough build up of mana around them, and if these "signs" were required then why would geases, and centering include them? If it is a penality to the caster to have them (gease) then why would you get bonus BP for admitting you have them anyway?

QUOTE
If you don't want your mage to gesture, hand wave, or manifest the shamanic mask, then their magic creates a more noticeable "physical" effect on the world: wind rushing, visual distortions, distinctive smell, etc. The book lays out the crunchy rules for noticing spellcasting, there is no option to make your mage's magic "unnoticeable."

Sorry, those 'signs' are not required at all. All that is needed is mundanes in the area to notice a shift in mana, which they seem to be capable of doing according to the ritual casting rules. Now given ritual casting takes hours instead of moments, the 'sudden' shift in mana for normally casting is likely what tips most mundanes off.
If you want to READ more into the rules then are written, feel free.
Muspellsheimr
Basically what it comes down to is:

Magicians are not required to perform any action to cast a spell, unless they have the Geas quality.

Most magicians will perform some kind of action while casting anyways, as a focusing technique.

Regardless of if you perform said actions or not, spellcasting is noticeable - I have always gone with the explanation of observers noticing the mana gathering around my character (remember, it is a Perception test, not a Visual Perception test), with no visual or audio effects, although observers may "see" it, lacking the ability to understand what it really is.
paws2sky
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Apr 15 2009, 03:21 PM) *
Basically what it comes down to is:

Magicians are not required to perform any action to cast a spell, unless they have the Geas quality.

Most magicians will perform some kind of action while casting anyways, as a focusing technique.

Regardless of if you perform said actions or not, spellcasting is noticeable - I have always gone with the explanation of observers noticing the mana gathering around my character (remember, it is a Perception test, not a Visual Perception test), with no visual or audio effects, although observers may "see" it, lacking the ability to understand what it really is.


Good summary.

-paws
Zurai
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Apr 15 2009, 01:41 PM) *
By RAW D&D rules a fighter with a rank in Perception and a +1 from stat rolls his d20 versus a target number of 15 + spell level (he needs a 13 to notice a 0th level spell).


Errrr.... no. Without a feat or class feature that says otherwise, spells cast with a somatic component are automatically spotted and identified as spellcasting, and spells cast with a verbal component are automatically heard and identified as spellcasting (subject to the normal spot/listen range rules). There are no spot/listen checks to identify spellcasting; there is a spellcraft check to identify which spell is being cast. Actually, the rules specifically say that spellcasting is ALWAYS obvious and cannot be hidden or missed.

Now, of course, you can take Still Spell and Silent Spell to remove the gesture/verbal components, but that's expensive in feats and increased spell levels.
The Mack
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Apr 16 2009, 05:21 AM) *
Basically what it comes down to is:

Magicians are not required to perform any action to cast a spell, unless they have the Geas quality.

Most magicians will perform some kind of action while casting anyways, as a focusing technique.

Regardless of if you perform said actions or not, spellcasting is noticeable - I have always gone with the explanation of observers noticing the mana gathering around my character (remember, it is a Perception test, not a Visual Perception test), with no visual or audio effects, although observers may "see" it, lacking the ability to understand what it really is.


Nicely put.

Unless you take a geas (which makes them mandatory flavor), movements, gestures, verbal components, chanting, singing, etc., are all just flavor.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012