After reading the post about ambidexterity, I was wondering why would anyone go for a laser sight.
Unless I'm missing something, both don't require cyberware (compared to previous editions), Smartlink cost more (modified gun, goggles, etc), Smartlink provide better bonuses (+2 dice, weapon info, quicker eject, etc). Please enlight me. Tx.
Full Version: Why go for a laser sight
'Cause it's cool looking? O.o
And in 3rd Ed Laser Pointer with Low-Light and Maginification was superior to Smart on all Ranges.
And in 3rd Ed Laser Pointer with Low-Light and Maginification was superior to Smart on all Ranges.
Because you want one?
1)Disadvantage. Sim Sense Disorientation
2)its an alternative to Smart Link
and its better to have one and need not,than need one and have not
3)Sometimes you encounter GMs that insist on playing Low-Level&Low Tech
these might consider Smartlink as inapropriate .So if you want to play with these,all you can use to get a small advantage is a Laser Pointer
HokaHey
Medicineman
2)its an alternative to Smart Link
and its better to have one and need not,than need one and have not
3)Sometimes you encounter GMs that insist on playing Low-Level&Low Tech
these might consider Smartlink as inapropriate .So if you want to play with these,all you can use to get a small advantage is a Laser Pointer
HokaHey
Medicineman
1) Intimidation. Because a red dot hovering over your <body part> has more of a psychological impact than simply pointing a gun at someone. You, as the potential victim, know exactly where the bullet is going to go and your mind will start working out all the ugly possibilities.
2) Backup. What happens when you lose your goggles/glasses/contacts and all of a sudden your smartgun doesn't mean frag-all? Doesn't affect cybereyes of course, but not everyone uses those anymore.
3) Misinformation. Someone sees you using a laser sight. They assume you don't have a smartlink. Why would you have both? No smartlink means you're low rent muscle, a magician, or have some reason not to use one.
Just a couple ideas.
-paws
2) Backup. What happens when you lose your goggles/glasses/contacts and all of a sudden your smartgun doesn't mean frag-all? Doesn't affect cybereyes of course, but not everyone uses those anymore.
3) Misinformation. Someone sees you using a laser sight. They assume you don't have a smartlink. Why would you have both? No smartlink means you're low rent muscle, a magician, or have some reason not to use one.
Just a couple ideas.
-paws
We can always go with the cheap not as effective optimal option doesn't make sense to me so why bother having it in the game and shouldn't we remove it thread.
QUOTE (paws2sky @ Apr 13 2009, 01:08 PM) 
3) Misinformation. Someone sees you using a laser sight. They assume you don't have a smartlink. Why would you have both? No smartlink means you're low rent muscle, a magician, or have some reason not to use one.
Just a couple ideas.
Just a couple ideas.
And I kinda like this one
Tx a bunch.
Using multiple weapons. Smart link bonus only applies to one weapon at a time (the rules are unclear, but this is how I understand them).
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 13 2009, 08:05 AM)
'Cause it's cool looking? O.o
And in 3rd Ed Laser Pointer with Low-Light and Maginification was superior to Smart on all Ranges.
And in 3rd Ed Laser Pointer with Low-Light and Maginification was superior to Smart on all Ranges.
...How do you figure? -1 TN vs -2 TN, only effective to 50m. What am I missing here?
Regarding misinformation, I don't get it. Yeah, it would trick someone to thinking you're not as dangerous if you don't have a laser sight. But most people opt for internal smartlinks anyway, since they're a less obvious way to tote a restricted mod. Wouldn't it have the same effect to point a bare gun at them, and keep the guessing whether you're a smartlinked badass, or a hopeless boob?
Plus, as far as the system goes, what does it mean that you think someone is less dangerous? You'll still get your full reaction roll if they shoot at you. I guess you could rule as the GM that they won't use full defense if they think you suck, but that seems kinda silly to me. Someone shoots at me, and I'm not in cover, I really don't care if they're a navy SEAL or a 10 year old kid. Even a kid with no training can shoot me, and I'm going to try just as hard to make myself a hard target. The only difference is I have a much worse chance of avoiding being shot with the SEAL. Plus, full defense is basically a metagame issue, you choose to full defense based on how many hits are coming at you. It's part of what keeps 4th ed from being ridiculously lethal. It's not realistic, and that's the problem with a quasi-realistic notion like lulling someone into thinking you suck with a fake laser sight. The system just doesn't account for it.
Now, you're on the money with intimidation. A laser sight would make someone more afraid, because they know when the gun is pointing at them. Imagine a guy starting cross-eyed at a laser dot on the tip of his nose. That guy is freaked out. He's probably more freaked out than when a gun is simply pointing in his direction, and he has no idea if it's going to hit his nose or his shoulder. And misinformation is pretty much incompatible with intimidation, someone isn't going to be more afraid based on a dot on their body, but also less afraid because they think people who use dots are wusses.
Plus, as far as the system goes, what does it mean that you think someone is less dangerous? You'll still get your full reaction roll if they shoot at you. I guess you could rule as the GM that they won't use full defense if they think you suck, but that seems kinda silly to me. Someone shoots at me, and I'm not in cover, I really don't care if they're a navy SEAL or a 10 year old kid. Even a kid with no training can shoot me, and I'm going to try just as hard to make myself a hard target. The only difference is I have a much worse chance of avoiding being shot with the SEAL. Plus, full defense is basically a metagame issue, you choose to full defense based on how many hits are coming at you. It's part of what keeps 4th ed from being ridiculously lethal. It's not realistic, and that's the problem with a quasi-realistic notion like lulling someone into thinking you suck with a fake laser sight. The system just doesn't account for it.
Now, you're on the money with intimidation. A laser sight would make someone more afraid, because they know when the gun is pointing at them. Imagine a guy starting cross-eyed at a laser dot on the tip of his nose. That guy is freaked out. He's probably more freaked out than when a gun is simply pointing in his direction, and he has no idea if it's going to hit his nose or his shoulder. And misinformation is pretty much incompatible with intimidation, someone isn't going to be more afraid based on a dot on their body, but also less afraid because they think people who use dots are wusses.
The real reason? Tracer ammunition which, if it hasn't been errata'd out, stacks with the Laser and provides a +2 bonus when you're firing Long Burst for a total of +3. If you're going for a Full Burst then it all stacks up to +4. Tracers are not compatible with the Smartgun bonus.
they make handy pointers for operation briefings.
Full burst with tracer rounds,
with Smartlink: +3 dice
with Laser Sight: +4 dice
It's like an extra point of recoil compensation. Particularly nice when you're chipping Heavy Weapons and can't afford to glitch with Ex-Ex.
with Smartlink: +3 dice
with Laser Sight: +4 dice
It's like an extra point of recoil compensation. Particularly nice when you're chipping Heavy Weapons and can't afford to glitch with Ex-Ex.
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Apr 13 2009, 10:53 AM)
Using multiple weapons. Smart link bonus only applies to one weapon at a time (the rules are unclear, but this is how I understand them).
You do not get the bonus for Smartlink when splitting your dice pool for firing with two (or more) weapons.
You also do not get the bonus from Laser Sight when splitting your dice pool for firing with two (or more) weapons.
Edit: nevermind
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Apr 13 2009, 01:05 PM)
You do not get the bonus for Smartlink when splitting your dice pool for firing with two (or more) weapons.
You also do not get the bonus from Laser Sight when splitting your dice pool for firing with two (or more) weapons.
You also do not get the bonus from Laser Sight when splitting your dice pool for firing with two (or more) weapons.
I only recalled that a friend of mine figured out someplace it ended up being better, and his latest character is a dual wielding cyber-elf and I had thought I recalled that character using laser sights (it's been like 3 weeks since we last played, and longer since he found the one spot it worked better).
Apparently it was the tracer rounds in full auto.
Yeah, but didn't Tracer Rounds lower your weapon's power, since you had to put in one tracer for every three or four bullets?
no they don't and they're the only ones to be mixed with other Ammo
(i'm using them with my Nartaki Char)
with a mixed Dance
Medicineman
(i'm using them with my Nartaki Char)
with a mixed Dance
Medicineman
I always viewed laser sights as the poor man's Smartlink. The real reason is probably because they are easier to procure and cheaper. Sure, it doesn't matter to a runner, but what about gangers? As a ganger, what if you couldn't get your hands on the smartlink retinal mod, or smartlinked goggles? Let alone the 400 nuyen for the external Smartlink? Well then, plop down 100 bucks for the laser sight, better than nothing.
Plus, if you are unaugmented, laser sights have another advantage: they don't need extra equipment. If you don't have cyber, and your goggles get taken/broken, they your Smartgun is useless. Laser sights always provide bonuses, whereas smartlinks do not.
Plus, if you are unaugmented, laser sights have another advantage: they don't need extra equipment. If you don't have cyber, and your goggles get taken/broken, they your Smartgun is useless. Laser sights always provide bonuses, whereas smartlinks do not.
QUOTE (Adarael @ Apr 13 2009, 07:57 PM)
...How do you figure? -1 TN vs -2 TN, only effective to 50m. What am I missing here?
IIRC laser markers had a higher range when used in the dark - 50m was the range in bright daylight. Plus, lasers could be used with scopes. Smartgun was incompatible.
Maybe it's because almost all of my SR3 characters had a propensity for single-shot weapons that this love of laser sights escapes me, but I'm almost positive of two things:
1) With rifles, no laser sight can reach the distances required where scopes have an actual effect. This may be due to the fact that I usually was using sniper rifles, though.
2) Scopes may be incompatible with smartguns, but I didn't think vision magnification cyberware was - which was the other thing I almost always had.
Still, the last time I looked dilligently at SR3 rules was 2005 or so, and consequently I may be misremembering.
I'm still sure the Fields of Fire rules indicate weapon power drop if you load in Tracer rounds...
1) With rifles, no laser sight can reach the distances required where scopes have an actual effect. This may be due to the fact that I usually was using sniper rifles, though.
2) Scopes may be incompatible with smartguns, but I didn't think vision magnification cyberware was - which was the other thing I almost always had.
Still, the last time I looked dilligently at SR3 rules was 2005 or so, and consequently I may be misremembering.
I'm still sure the Fields of Fire rules indicate weapon power drop if you load in Tracer rounds...
There were High-Power Laser-Pointers, range of 500m, which is good enough for Pistols, SMG's, Shotguns and Hunting- and Assault-Rifles.
Also, Built in Vision Magnification 3 meant shooting at targets as if they were at short range, even if they were at long range.
And THEN there came the -1 from Laser-Pointer. So, in effect, you had lowered the target number to hit from 7 to 3.
And for less Essence/Money than the Smartlink would have cost you.
Only at Short Range, where the -2 to TN from the Smartlink made your TN a solid 2 the Smartlink was better.
But not by that much either, because, seriously? 2 or 3? Not such a big difference in the number of times either one comes up.
Also, Built in Vision Magnification 3 meant shooting at targets as if they were at short range, even if they were at long range.
And THEN there came the -1 from Laser-Pointer. So, in effect, you had lowered the target number to hit from 7 to 3.
And for less Essence/Money than the Smartlink would have cost you.
Only at Short Range, where the -2 to TN from the Smartlink made your TN a solid 2 the Smartlink was better.
But not by that much either, because, seriously? 2 or 3? Not such a big difference in the number of times either one comes up.
QUOTE
they make handy pointers for operation briefings.
And we have a winner!
Laser sights are, I think, far less susceptible to hacking.
Of course, how could i forget that? O.o
you simply CAN'T hack a single LED with battery and on/off-switch x.x . .
Although . . you could use it for morse code O.o
As for the operation briefing: i am so stealing that ^^
Hrm, figure this is as good as anywhere else to ask:
does SOMEONE know where i can find the gun-cam rules for SR3?
i've read through the core book, man and machine and canon companion.
could not, for the life of me, find the frigging stuff. . .
How's it work?
what do i need?
Obviously, Gun-Cam on Gun . .
Something to view the images with.
But do i only need the smartlink to transmit?
Or do i have to DNI it?
does the smartlink suffice for viewing the gun-cam images?
or do i have to implant image link for that?
Do i get Smartlink-Bonus for that thing?
Can i hold it arond a corner and get the -2 to shooting it?
Some simple page references would be enough for me ._.
i may not actually get to ever play again, but this has irked me the whole frigging time i actually got to play <.<. .
you simply CAN'T hack a single LED with battery and on/off-switch x.x . .
Although . . you could use it for morse code O.o
As for the operation briefing: i am so stealing that ^^
Hrm, figure this is as good as anywhere else to ask:
does SOMEONE know where i can find the gun-cam rules for SR3?
i've read through the core book, man and machine and canon companion.
could not, for the life of me, find the frigging stuff. . .
How's it work?
what do i need?
Obviously, Gun-Cam on Gun . .
Something to view the images with.
But do i only need the smartlink to transmit?
Or do i have to DNI it?
does the smartlink suffice for viewing the gun-cam images?
or do i have to implant image link for that?
Do i get Smartlink-Bonus for that thing?
Can i hold it arond a corner and get the -2 to shooting it?
Some simple page references would be enough for me ._.
i may not actually get to ever play again, but this has irked me the whole frigging time i actually got to play <.<. .
for sr3:
smartlink couldn't work with vision mag so it had to be combined with a range finder.
lasersight would work with vision mag.
The result:
Smartlink was best at close range, but anything beyond short was tied or worse than a laser sight + vision mag.
Also you could modify laser sights to be visible on different spectrums (low-light, thermal) and extend them pretty far.
Typical use would to be to put lasersight on any weapon meant to fire far or give it to an adept to save from needing the smartlink implants.
Sams would typically rely on the smartlink and use the laser sight when it benefitted them.
smartlink couldn't work with vision mag so it had to be combined with a range finder.
lasersight would work with vision mag.
The result:
Smartlink was best at close range, but anything beyond short was tied or worse than a laser sight + vision mag.
Also you could modify laser sights to be visible on different spectrums (low-light, thermal) and extend them pretty far.
Typical use would to be to put lasersight on any weapon meant to fire far or give it to an adept to save from needing the smartlink implants.
Sams would typically rely on the smartlink and use the laser sight when it benefitted them.
Smartlink is better then a laser-sight, but a laser-sight doesn't require special cyberware, googles, cables, or wireless link. This means for the non-techno savy characters it is sometimes better to have a laser-sight then go through the trouble of making your gun smart.
laser sight: availability 2. joe blow can legitimately have a laser sight on their gun (provided it is otherwise legal).
smartgun: availability 4R or 6R, license required, people will be asking questions if they are aware of it.
laser sight can be a laser designator.
laser sight is cheaper for throwaway/backup guns (such as you might keep in an emergency stash). not a huge issue for, say, mr street sam who can get by with just a few guns, but let's suppose you're a drone rigger with a fleet of laser-sight using drones... (especially if you then use the aforementioned tracer rounds).
convenience. it is a complex action to install/remove a laser sight. it is an armorer + logic (4, 1 hour) test to add (or presumably to remove, though this isn't mentioned) a smartgun system.
smartgun: availability 4R or 6R, license required, people will be asking questions if they are aware of it.
laser sight can be a laser designator.
laser sight is cheaper for throwaway/backup guns (such as you might keep in an emergency stash). not a huge issue for, say, mr street sam who can get by with just a few guns, but let's suppose you're a drone rigger with a fleet of laser-sight using drones... (especially if you then use the aforementioned tracer rounds).
convenience. it is a complex action to install/remove a laser sight. it is an armorer + logic (4, 1 hour) test to add (or presumably to remove, though this isn't mentioned) a smartgun system.
QUOTE (Aaron @ Apr 13 2009, 03:07 PM)
Laser sights are, I think, far less susceptible to hacking.
You hit the nail smack dab on the head. With no connectivity, even via skinlink, you can't hack it at all. For the ultimately paranoid, the complete invulnerability to hacking makes a laser sight a good deal.
I never got why a laser sight - look, there's a red dot there where I am aiming at! - would work any better than a smartlink - look, there's a crosshair symbol where I am aiming at! - tracers or no tracers. In my game, anything a laser sight can do a smartlink can do, and then some.
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Apr 14 2009, 02:29 AM)
I never got why a laser sight - look, there's a red dot there where I am aiming at! - would work any better than a smartlink - look, there's a crosshair symbol where I am aiming at! - tracers or no tracers. In my game, anything a laser sight can do a smartlink can do, and then some.
Because Smartlink is not just the cross-hairs?
I always figures the Smartlink was reading all the data from your body position etc calculating it with your target, range to target, speed of target, your speed, and putting a cross hair for where your gun is pointing and then putting a circle or something for where you need to point your gun.
Remember when old smartguns allowed you to rake a full autoburst through an area and a) no waste of bullets and b) no hitting your buddies in the back(unless you wanted to)?
Prettymuch, only reasons I can think of for a Laser Sight are, as mentioned it is not likely to be hacked and it is legal without permit. Thus, for your legal gun(you know..the gun you take out in public), you would want it.
A smartlink doesn't actually create a crossheir, it creates an estimated trajectory for the bullet based on observable conditions. If you are using a smartlink system, other aiming devices just don't help. A smart link doesn't take tracers into account, so you can either use the link, or a tracers.
Smart gun systems do have disadvantages that lasers don't, namely that they can become hacked. They also have to be synced up with a visual device, which means either cable spaghetti or creating a wireless signal that can be detected. Laser sights can also be detached and attached to other weapons without modifying them.
Smart gun systems do have disadvantages that lasers don't, namely that they can become hacked. They also have to be synced up with a visual device, which means either cable spaghetti or creating a wireless signal that can be detected. Laser sights can also be detached and attached to other weapons without modifying them.
QUOTE (TheOOB @ Apr 14 2009, 10:24 AM)
A smartlink doesn't actually create a crossheir, it creates an estimated trajectory for the bullet based on observable conditions. If you are using a smartlink system, other aiming devices just don't help. A smart link doesn't take tracers into account, so you can either use the link, or a tracers.
Smart gun systems do have disadvantages that lasers don't, namely that they can become hacked. They also have to be synced up with a visual device, which means either cable spaghetti or creating a wireless signal that can be detected. Laser sights can also be detached and attached to other weapons without modifying them.
Smart gun systems do have disadvantages that lasers don't, namely that they can become hacked. They also have to be synced up with a visual device, which means either cable spaghetti or creating a wireless signal that can be detected. Laser sights can also be detached and attached to other weapons without modifying them.
See, I do not follow the "A lasersight can be better than a smartlink" opinion.
First, in order to calculate the trajectory, and create AR crosshairs, the smrtalink needs a rangefinder - to determine where the point of impact would be. That means it can duplicate a laser sight easily.
And I really don't know why anyone would think that it would matter with tracers whether or not the red dot in my field of view is projected by a laser sight on the target, or projected on my display link by the smartlink system.
As far as hacking/wireless/cable goes: Skinlink.
Portability? There are external smartlinks as well.
In short my point is that a smartlink would include a laser sight's functionality.
Biggest thing a Laser Sight has going for it: it is LEGAL.
As I said: Imagine your character is a SINner, and you have a legal gun, registered, and you have smartlink in your Cyber Eyes(which, of course, have their wireless shut off and are skinlinked, so LoneStar does not see it flagged when you walk by). You have your Legal Comlink with your actual ID on it, your licensed self-defense pistol, and you have a laser sight on it...because laser sights do not require a permit..
As I said: Imagine your character is a SINner, and you have a legal gun, registered, and you have smartlink in your Cyber Eyes(which, of course, have their wireless shut off and are skinlinked, so LoneStar does not see it flagged when you walk by). You have your Legal Comlink with your actual ID on it, your licensed self-defense pistol, and you have a laser sight on it...because laser sights do not require a permit..
QUOTE (Cardul @ Apr 14 2009, 12:28 PM)
Biggest thing a Laser Sight has going for it: it is LEGAL.
As I said: Imagine your character is a SINner, and you have a legal gun, registered, and you have smartlink in your Cyber Eyes(which, of course, have their wireless shut off and are skinlinked, so LoneStar does not see it flagged when you walk by). You have your Legal Comlink with your actual ID on it, your licensed self-defense pistol, and you have a laser sight on it...because laser sights do not require a permit..
As I said: Imagine your character is a SINner, and you have a legal gun, registered, and you have smartlink in your Cyber Eyes(which, of course, have their wireless shut off and are skinlinked, so LoneStar does not see it flagged when you walk by). You have your Legal Comlink with your actual ID on it, your licensed self-defense pistol, and you have a laser sight on it...because laser sights do not require a permit..
Since a pistol has about the same legality rating as a smartlink - "restricted" - I fail to see how that would matter. If I have a permit for a gun I'll have a pemit for the smartlink. If I do not have a permit for the smartlink why would I have a permit for the gun?
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Apr 14 2009, 02:35 PM)
Since a pistol has about the same legality rating as a smartlink - "restricted" - I fail to see how that would matter. If I have a permit for a gun I'll have a pemit for the smartlink. If I do not have a permit for the smartlink why would I have a permit for the gun?
Game mechanics wise - doesn't matter a thing. But if you start thinking about "real" licenses for whatever stuff, odds are, you ain't getting a license that easily for more dangerous items. Joe Average buys himself a light pistol, so he needs a license. He justifies carrying it for for self defense. OK - says the person giving the license. Jim Toughguy wants to get himself all goodies. He buys the heaviest legal pistol and a smartgun. He also says he is using it for self defense. The person giving the license might recommend to move out of the neighborhood and not give license to a troll-slaying device.
So you get a forged license for your equipment. Which one the cops might think when pulling you over that you have a legit license for all that stuff? Again, gamewise, it is exactly the same possibility to get busted for carrying a fakelicensed light pistol or an assault rifle with smartlink.
At least around here the police who gives the license asks for what purpose you need the gun. For some hobby target shooting you don't need a cannon with a smartlink. Of course if you are on more dangerous line of work, you an have such, but you need probably a license for that, too. If you got the coin, go for it all. If you just need a gun and bit of help for aiming, get a gun + lasersight.
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Apr 13 2009, 07:05 PM)
You do not get the bonus for Smartlink when splitting your dice pool for firing with two (or more) weapons.
You also do not get the bonus from Laser Sight when splitting your dice pool for firing with two (or more) weapons.
You also do not get the bonus from Laser Sight when splitting your dice pool for firing with two (or more) weapons.
I just double checked this hoping you'd be wrong.
I was certain laser sights were applicable to both weapons when dual wielding but it seems I was mistaken. I should know by now not to question you...
- J.
QUOTE (BullZeye @ Apr 14 2009, 02:08 PM)
Game mechanics wise - doesn't matter a thing. But if you start thinking about "real" licenses for whatever stuff, odds are, you ain't getting a license that easily for more dangerous items. Joe Average buys himself a light pistol, so he needs a license. He justifies carrying it for for self defense. OK - says the person giving the license. Jim Toughguy wants to get himself all goodies. He buys the heaviest legal pistol and a smartgun. He also says he is using it for self defense. The person giving the license might recommend to move out of the neighborhood and not give license to a troll-slaying device.
So you get a forged license for your equipment. Which one the cops might think when pulling you over that you have a legit license for all that stuff? Again, gamewise, it is exactly the same possibility to get busted for carrying a fakelicensed light pistol or an assault rifle with smartlink.
At least around here the police who gives the license asks for what purpose you need the gun. For some hobby target shooting you don't need a cannon with a smartlink. Of course if you are on more dangerous line of work, you an have such, but you need probably a license for that, too. If you got the coin, go for it all. If you just need a gun and bit of help for aiming, get a gun + lasersight.
So you get a forged license for your equipment. Which one the cops might think when pulling you over that you have a legit license for all that stuff? Again, gamewise, it is exactly the same possibility to get busted for carrying a fakelicensed light pistol or an assault rifle with smartlink.
At least around here the police who gives the license asks for what purpose you need the gun. For some hobby target shooting you don't need a cannon with a smartlink. Of course if you are on more dangerous line of work, you an have such, but you need probably a license for that, too. If you got the coin, go for it all. If you just need a gun and bit of help for aiming, get a gun + lasersight.
That doesn't really work with the most popular pistol (Ares Predator) having a built-in smartlink.
Because it's Style over Substance and since smartlinks are now wireless or skinlinked, you can't have bonus Style points for having a wire between you and your gun.
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Apr 14 2009, 06:05 PM)
That doesn't really work with the most popular pistol (Ares Predator) having a built-in smartlink.
How so it doesn't work? The one giving you a license might not allow you to get the permit to even buy it... and you need another permit for the smartlink on your eyes/glasses/whatnot. Quite sure Joe Average can't get the permit for either one just like that. You need a reason to even be able to buy a heavy pistol and even if the gun has a smartlink built in, alone it's just a rangefinder and whatnot together. It's the combination that makes it more dangerous. Or are you saying that Ares Predator is just another pistol, like a simple Beretta? Of course most who do want a heavier gun will have adequate reason to get the permit for the smartgun system as well as the kickass gun, but for a "civilian", it's not the same. It's like the thing with the concealed carry-license. You can't get it just like that and/or everywhere, can you?
But as I said, game mechanics-wise, there is no difference. Some GM's might want to limit such if one lives in a town where the law is more strict than in Seattle, for example.
And Blade nailed the most important Style over Substance - reasoning anyway.
The Ares Predator is as easy to get as the easiest light pistol, and as restricted - 4R. And it is the most common heavy pistol on the market, as far as I know. And it has smartlink as standard.
You're free to assume smartlinks are in your game more restricted than pistols, but that's not what the books lay out. By the book, smartlinks are common, and widespread.
You're free to assume smartlinks are in your game more restricted than pistols, but that's not what the books lay out. By the book, smartlinks are common, and widespread.
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Apr 14 2009, 07:34 PM)
The Ares Predator is as easy to get as the easiest light pistol, and as restricted - 4R. And it is the most common heavy pistol on the market, as far as I know. And it has smartlink as standard.
You're free to assume smartlinks are in your game more restricted than pistols, but that's not what the books lay out. By the book, smartlinks are common, and widespread.
You're free to assume smartlinks are in your game more restricted than pistols, but that's not what the books lay out. By the book, smartlinks are common, and widespread.
Now you got my point somehow mixed up. I am not talking about availability, but how difficult it is to get a permit for whatever item. And I said many many times already, that in game terms it doesn't make a difference. Availability means how readily available the shops/market keep the item, not how illegal item it is. For example BTL recordings have availability 4F. Easy to get & illegal. In some parts of the world it is more easy to get AK-47 than clean water, but that doesn't make AK-47 any more legal.
Runners get all their licenses as fake so for them, it is just a matter of money can the license pass or not. I was talking about a legit SINner who wants to go buy a gun with all the stuff included and licenses to them. If it was so easy to get such license, why would people walk around the street and not carry a heavy gun if they can afford it and it was so easy to license? I'm just referring to how things are in RL licenses. In the rules it doesn't really say how it goes, but I doubt the world has changed so much that everyone is allowed to pack an assault rifle (AK-97 has availability of 4R). Hiding it is bit more difficult, but nobody comes to rob you if you got AK on your shoulder.
Again, the ares predator is one of the most common pistols. It has a smartlink. So do a lot of other weapons. That leads to to the conclusion that smartlinks are not less legal than pistols themselves, nor any harder to get a permit for.
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Apr 15 2009, 02:26 PM)
Again, the ares predator is one of the most common pistols. It has a smartlink. So do a lot of other weapons. That leads to to the conclusion that smartlinks are not less legal than pistols themselves, nor any harder to get a permit for.
p. 301
QUOTE
The Availability rating represents how easy (or hard) it is
to acquire a piece of equipment. Availability represents a range
of factors: scarcity, legality, distribution issues, and so on.
to acquire a piece of equipment. Availability represents a range
of factors: scarcity, legality, distribution issues, and so on.
p. 303
QUOTE
A restricted item may be purchased,
owned, and transported under special cir-
cumstances. For example, you are allowed
to purchase and own a gun when you have
a firearms license for it. To
carry a gun with you, you
may need a more specific
concealed carry permit.
owned, and transported under special cir-
cumstances. For example, you are allowed
to purchase and own a gun when you have
a firearms license for it. To
carry a gun with you, you
may need a more specific
concealed carry permit.
I would read these the way I have already written previously. You run the game the way you want it.
And why do you think that a smartlink would be less legal than a pistol itself? What do you base this on?
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Apr 15 2009, 03:06 PM)
And why do you think that a smartlink would be less legal than a pistol itself? What do you base this on?
Not less legal per se, but would need another type of permit for it's purpose. Just like having just a gun permit or the conceal carry permit. If you got a carry permit for a gun and you can use it only on shooting range is different in my books than to carry a smartlinked heavy pistol under your jacket. Both are legal things to own with a license, but obtaining permits to the latter one ought to be hell of a lot more difficult and more rare. For practice shooting smartlink isn't really necessary but for a bodyguard it could be vital.
I am just saying that you can nowadays get a permit to lots of things if you have really a reason to have the whatnot. Explosives are good example about this. Self defense C4 is likely to not pass
QUOTE (BullZeye @ Apr 14 2009, 11:17 AM)
How so it doesn't work? The one giving you a license might not allow you to get the permit to even buy it... and you need another permit for the smartlink on your eyes/glasses/whatnot.
Or maybe your hacker can create a Smartlink program (a rating 1 program) that runs on your commlink and interfaces with your displaylink contact lenses/glasses/goggles so you don't need the expensive and capacity sucking smartlink cyberware. I base the idea of making a smartlink program from the idea that Technomancers can make a Smartlink complex form. Complex forms are just programs plain and simple.
Besides, what does a smartlink do? It interfaces you with the weapon. Cardul said it best:
QUOTE (Cardul @ Apr 14 2009, 03:21 AM)
I always figures the Smartlink was reading all the data from your body position etc calculating it with your target, range to target, speed of target, your speed, and putting a cross hair for where your gun is pointing and then putting a circle or something for where you need to point your gun.
Your commlink could run a program to do EVERYTHING that Cardul said without having to have the cybereye mod. You just need a commlink and a way of displaying that data. Also with either a trode net or cyberware (datajack, or cyber commlink) and a skinlink you could have the DNI control of the smartgun.
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Apr 15 2009, 04:59 PM)
Or maybe your hacker can create a Smartlink program (a rating 1 program) that runs on your commlink and interfaces with your displaylink contact lenses/glasses/goggles so you don't need the expensive and capacity sucking smartlink cyberware. I base the idea of making a smartlink program from the idea that Technomancers can make a Smartlink complex form. Complex forms are just programs plain and simple.
No their not.
And anyway you can allready get smartlink to you contact lenses/glasses/goggles, no need for ware if you don't want cyberyes
QUOTE (Mäx @ Apr 15 2009, 10:16 AM)
No their not.
And anyway you can allready get smartlink to you contact lenses/glasses/goggles, no need for ware if you don't want cyberyes
And anyway you can allready get smartlink to you contact lenses/glasses/goggles, no need for ware if you don't want cyberyes
The reason not to get the smartlink cybereye mod is that it takes up 3 capacity in a cybereye. For 3 capacity I can get Flare compensation and Lowlight or thermographic vision... Smartlink is way too bloated.
Cyber eyes already have a displaylink and if you have a commlink you can run a program that does all the functions of a smartlink.
Now Mäx, are you telling me a hacker could not create a program to do what a smartlink does? A smartlink is not something like thermographic vision or vision magnification. It just does ballistic calculations and if there is something a commlink does well it does do calculations and run programs.
Now the reason to do all this crap? You might lose your glasses or goggles, but if you have a cyber commlink and cybereyes then you can get the smartlink function for free (both
and capacity) and it's undetectable.
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Apr 15 2009, 10:30 AM)
Now the reason to do all this crap? You might lose your glasses or goggles, but if you have a cyber commlink and cybereyes then you can get the smartlink function for free (both and capacity) and it's undetectable.
and capacity) and it's undetectable.Read that again and tell me that it's fair.
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