That was my first point. I think that this is an acceptable reason to change hacking rules, because otherwise Logic is indeed useless.



You're stuck in 2009 thinking about computer programs, though. 2070 progs don't work like that. You do things by picking up icons and pointing them at stuff, not typing letters and numbers into boxes. You can probably use computers very well without even being able to read -- in fact, I'm sure that a great many computer users in the 2070s are illiterate and not too bright, and they still do fine because computers are advanced to where you neither have to read nor understand their inner workings. It's like Apple, only dumbed down even more.



But you're assuming that a) data searching works that way in 2070, and b) that the Browse program is just a search engine. I'm pretty positive it doesn't, and it isn't -- it's got to include some features that amalgamate contextual information. And you don't have to type out a string of characters, you just have to tell it "find me some Beatles songs available for free on in a format my media player can run," and it does that. You can't get stuck in 2009 thinking when you're dealing with Shadowrun hacking. Shadowrun hacking might be crazy unrealistic, but if you want to fix that you have to rewrite all the rules.

I'm not saying that you can't conceptualize a 2070's computer environment where logic is a factor. I'm just saying that, if you think it makes no sense that logic isn't a factor, you're wrong. There is a conceptualization where it makes sense. So don't feel compelled to change the rules based on a misconception about computing in Shadowrun. That's all.

now THIS will probably prove to be immensly usefull to me, once i figure out the correct syntax O.o

Debatable. Having taken a class on The Future of Digital Media (which is more related to how much more impressive graphics the XBux is going to have, but it also related to usability and interface devices), I can tell you that even in 60 years the amount of knowledge you're going to need in order to find what you want is going to stay the same, if not increase.

There's a limit on how much programming you can do in order to assume what the user knows. For example, my IM spellchecker automatically changes "Tath" into "That," yet what I wanted to type WAS "Tath," short for a friend's name, "Tathar."

Similarly GMail has a "are you sure you attached your files?" plugin caught me trying to send an email with the word "attach" in the body, despite the fact that I was talking ActionScript ("and the code attaches the movieclip to the stage").

The more you try and guess what the user meant the more wrong the system gets. In 2070 the computer will be reading your mind, checking subsurface thoughts to make sure that it's doing the right thing. But what if I have a brief thought about pornography? Now my search for The Beatles doesn't give me songs, but rather porno films. Oh god! That's not what I wanted!



If you take a look at some of the results that

intitle:index.of +�last modified� +�parent directory� +(mp3|wma|ogg) +"The Beatles" -htm -html -php -asp

returns, you'll find all of those server generated "here's a list of files" pages (like this one, which is a list of screenshots from Crysis), which is what "intitle:index.of" does, then it looks at the contents of the page looking for "last modified" and "parent directory" for files that have mp3 or wma or ogg in them, plus the search term, and not pages that are webpages (i.e. not TheBeatles.html and rock_sample.mp3 as two files). It's reasonably powerful. Anyway, the reason I know that string is because of Google 2 Person (that is, using some crafty Google searches to help locate open directories or otherwise shared files).

I wasn't talking about real world 2070. Shadowrun is probably waaaay off in terms of how computers are gonna work in the future. But it doesn't matter, because it's fiction, not a prediction. I believe that the current system presents us with a Net that doesn't require smarts, it's all 'point at the colorful icon' stuff, with the internal workings hidden. It's like, what if Apple crushed Microsoft, and they put Steve Jobs' head in a jar, and he developed an internet that everyone could use without knowing anything. You are free to create an alternate, more realistic vision of the future. But Shadowrun, being practically stolen from Gibson, who started writing in the 1980s, isn't that system. They've done some updating with SR4 to give us a wireless net, but at the core it's still Gibson's matrix.

Okay firstly... armor is a bad example case on your part. I see where youre going but it's a bad example.

Armor is literally that armor, it's a fully passive program. The only time it comes into play is when you're resisting cyber damage. You don't roll any tests w/ it. It's sort of like your anti-virus program... it's always running in the background and you almost never interact with it.

Secondly, your argument in the end comes down to... anything is possible. Fine, but good science fiction tends to have an element of the familiar. Because that's how people relate to it. If you want to play in 'Idiocracy' more power to you, but many of us won't consider joining you.

Thirdly, I'm not looking at this from a possibility perspective. I'm looking at this purely from a game mechanic standpoint. As it stands now... deckers and riggers are basically the sum of their equipment. Outside of a handfull of dice from skill. The bulk of their dice come from equipment. Mental stats barely come into play, when they really should. The tests required to write/maintain software are so long and involved that most don't even bother just stealing/buying software toolsets.

Fourthly, I have nothing against the street sam packing some decking skills of his own. Not the least to defend his own cyber and weapons from opposing deckers. Or to backup the main decker when an appearance by the heavy metal street sam isn't the best choice.


Veggiesama:
Looking at the rigger chart. Yeah, it'd need a lot of redo only if you try and do everything (jumped in and remote control). Especially w/ the way the keep jumping between things like Response(hardware) + skill. But if you only do remote control.. it's fairly straightforward. (link attribute/mental remap)
Attack(agility/logic)
Melee defense: Reaction/intuion + Melee skill
Ranged Defense: Reaction/Intuition
Full Defense: Reaction/Intuition + dodge + Melee skill (if melee)
Infiltration: Agility/logic
Maneuver: Reaction/Intuiotion + Vehicle Skill
Perception: Sensor + perception (I'd keep perception the same, especially w/ the improvements to sensor rules)

Not all that hard of a list. Again all the above dice pools capped in 'force' or hits by the command program rating.


Also, one other thing. I have nothing against riggers needing a bit of agility and reaction if they're not jumping into their drones. Quite frankly... I think remote-control (command) is hands down the best way to run your drones for most things. The rigger is at far less physical peril (hotsim while jumped in == dumpshock... or direct exposure to enemy deckers attacking the drone electronically). Also it takes less cyber (no rigging module).

If you think about it from the perspective of a decker who uses drones on the side... it's almost perfect.

Your comments regarding... might as well be a street sam... yeah drones almost are! Only if you lose the drone you lose some money and might be able to recover a bit of it from salvage/spare parts. You fire up another and go right back at it. If the street sam goes down... he may be dead w/ no such easy 'resurect' option. So for that reason as well I have little against seeing deckers/riggers using physical/mental stats if they're not jumped into their drones.

And if you read the actual fiction (say, Psychotrope) you'd understand that Logic still plays a part.

I don't know what the disagreement is here. All I'm doing is providing a fluff justification for Logic not being used in the hacking rules. Whether you justify it or not, Logic isn't used. The only thing I'm saying is that the current rules can be justified. If you reject that, you can rewrite the rules. I really don't care what you do, I'm just explaining why keeping the current rules looks like an ok thing to me.

See, I would have constructed the chart differently. I would have replaced Response with Reaction across the board. Yes, you'd have Reaction + Gunnery and Reaction + Infiltration, but that would feel more "riggery" to me. Plus they wouldn't have to be so... umm... "MAD" (multiple ability dependent), to use the D&D parlance.

Then I'd replace Command with Logic, following the Hacker rewrite. So Jumped-In requires Reaction, and Remote-Controlled requires Logic.

But then there's some business about whether or not to use Intuition. I would probably stick with Sensor, like you did.

But the point is: I don't really want to reconstruct a chart. The "Use Logic instead of Program Rating" rule is intended to be a quick patch on a simple problem, but there are so many unintended consequences that you really have to rework the whole system (I have nothing against this, but I have yet to see it tackled): the whole rigger tables change, technomancers have to be reworked, and we haven't even talked about what effect +Logic bioware has on this (especially compared to poor Technos), whether we change the Matrix Initiative and Matrix Damage Resistance tests too (and how), and so on.

I came up with a way to reword my Damage house rule.



If you're still hung-up about the "choosing" idea, then making it always happen (could be interesting, but would make combat a little more painful on those halved DV round-ups) or only when the character would otherwise be knocked unconscious (too limited use for my taste). I just like the tactical gamble that a choice provides. YMMV.

And here's what I decided to do about that Logic debate earlier. I still don't like it, but it seems like the simplest way of handling things without having to rewrite tables and/or harm certain character builds:

Ok, that just makes trolls invincible. If they stay on their feet until BOTH condition monitors are full, they go from bullet eating monsters to OMGWTFITCANTBEKILLED. That might be reasonable if you think that the current system is too deadly as-is. I don't. I think it's the right amount of deadly. Tank trolls are not invincible, they can be hurt by powerful attacks, but the number of defense dice they have mean that they generally stay standing when someone else would be killed outright. If they take damage eating ware like platelet factories and trauma dampers, they're even better. Under your system, a tank troll with damage eating ware would just be wrong.



Those are some pretty decent rules. I don't think they're necessary. It might be a good thing to make Logic more useful, but I like that hackers don't have to spend all their BP on mental attributes. That leaves them able to do more than one thing, so they can play with the rest of the team and not hog all the play time running the matrix with nobody else participating.

I really like the magic mechanic. Force limits net hits and overcasting.

I had often wanted to mirror those in the matrix. Logic or Program Rating limiting net hits and have some form of overcasting. That way the program rating and logic get used in every matrix test.

I do use the optional rule of Skill + Attribute (mainly Logic) with the Program rating limiting net hits, but it seems so wanting to be able to "overcast" as well. With program optimization (in unwired) you get to surpass that limit, but nothing to the upper limit as you get with force x 2 in magic.

But alas, I don't get many players really geared up to be in the matrix enough to make it worthwhile for me to really flesh out "overcasting" rules in the matrix...

"Overcasting" in the Matrix is called Threading. It's sort of the technomancer shtick. Look into it.

Yeah, I've yet to read anything about technomancers. I removed them from my first game. While I've allowed them for my second game, no one has expressed interest in a technomancer, so still I have yet to read anything.

But I am assuming this is only for technomancers, therefore not really the application I was thinking of. But, you've piqued my interest, so I'll take a look. I may be able to bolt on threading to a hacker and not have to reinvent any wheels.

Basically they make a skill roll, which increases their CF rating by [hits] and later take drain. Other actions have a -2 sustaining penalty, like spells, but it's a non-action to thread.

Still having not read it by going on this synopsis...that's really not what I was thinking about for hackers. More like being able to run a program up to twice its rating (or logic) and then suffering a drain because you ran the program higher than its rating (or logic). With magic, drain steps up from stun to physical, so I was thinking hackers would step up from no drain to stun drain (or maybe even the equivalent damage as a dumpshock).

If the above is accurate, then technos can roll for more powerful CFs, take drain and a sustaining penalty. Certainly similar to magic, but not really mimicking Force mechanics like I was pondering...

The Magic 1 you get from Knack/Astral sight stays at 1 unless your essence drops below 1.
Makes those more of an option for mundane builds.

That's the synopsis on how TM Threading works, I know it's not the same (and the drain they take is dependent on how much higher the threading is and if it exceeds their Resonance it's physical, not stun, IIRC).

I agree it's probably not the best way to do it for normal hackers. To which I can't suggest anything.



Of course, your dice pool for casting the spell isn't very high...1 Magic + 1-2 skill?

Yes, you're pretty much limited to spells that only require 1 hit to take effect like oxygenate, shapechange or poltergeist but those can be real handy.
Spirit knack can also come in handy outside of combat and astral perception is pretty good anyway.

I agree that there are spells that could be useful, but it's pretty limited.

Interesting... But really worth it in the long run?

Indeterminate. You can't buy your magic any higher than 1 either. Maximum 7 dice to using the knack, most players will either start with 4 dice in [skill] (best out of chargen) or only 1 or 2 (maximizing role play: hey guys, look at what I can do! Not very well, yet, but I'm practicing!).

I use the other Optional rule where Skill + Program hits are capped by Logic. That still brings Logic into play without changing too much of the existing game mechanics (thus screwing over TM Threading).