@muspellheimer: i really don't see where you got your interpretation on the essence hole rules. Not that i think merging cyber and bio holes together is a bad thing, but it's pretty obvious to me that you would also halve the remaining hole if the ratio changes. It adds to maths, but sr is hardly ever light on maths.

Re: gun firing rates. These are already unrealistic in sr. People always point toward experts emptying 6 shooters in less than a second and so on to justify high firing rates achievable through augmentation, forgetting that these experts are not augmented.
I find it far easier to just ignore these real life examples for the sake of playability. In my game i have been restricting firing rates for a while now. It deemphasises reaction enhancments, and promotes melee which leads to a playstyle i prefer.

Rules as Written, if you possess both Cyber & Bio augmentations, the lesser Essence cost is further reduced by 50%.

So, if you possess 3 Essence points of Cyber & 2.99 Essence points of Bio, the Bio cost is halved to 1.495, for a total loss of 4.495.

Now, if you obtain 0.02 points of Bio augmentation, the base values are now 3.0 & 3.1 - the cybernetic value is halved, bioaugmentation applies in full.

3 Essence cost is reduced to 1.5 Essence cost - what happens to the now 'regained' 1.5 Essence? It cannot be healed (barring genetic treatments - irrelevant to this), so it instead becomes an Essence Hole - available as a discount, so to speak, to any future enhancements. Because it was created by cybernetics, this 'discount' can only be applied to other cybernetics.

We now have 1.5 Essence worth of cybernetics installed, 1.5 Essence worth of cybernetic Essence Hole available, and the newly increased 3.01 Essence worth of bioaugmentation (previously 1.495, doubled because it is no longer the lesser value) - for a total Essence Loss of 6.01, killing the recipient, who previously had 1.505 available Essence, & installed a mere 0.02 Essence worth of new 'ware.

I don't think there is a hole in that circumstance. The essence cost of your cyber is reduced to 1.5 when you install the bioware. If you subsequently removed 1 essence worth of cyber and had gene treatment to heal the hole it would only increase your total essence by .5, since cyber losses were halved when bio exceeded cyber.
The math does get quite convoluted, but i don't know that this complicated sequence of surgeries is all that likely to happen in most games.

in our game we got a couple house rules:

ground vehicule and water vehicule.

now those 2 skills are way to wide. with ground vehicule you can drive, bikes, tanks, cars, carterpillars ect... same for water.

now a sail boat and a speedboat wont be the same.

so we decided to make those two skill GROUPS instead of skills.

Next come the Detective skill group:

Perception
Investigation
Search

and I personally would even put intimidation in to make it more interesting. Our game is about legwork and investigation so it made senses to have a search and investigation skill.

Finally we found armour a little too good for joe average. Sure mister shadowrunner has a 20 dice pool but joe average street thug should be capable of killing someting.... Armors are never perfect and localization slows everything down...

so when you roll body+armour, roll armour dice another colour or separately, every one lowers armor value by one to determine if the damage is lethal or stun. A glitch means that armor is completely bypassed. exemple a vest with 6 armor rolls 2 one. so if the weapons make 4+ dammage, its lethal.

I really like the detective skill group idea, I might have to steal that. I understand why Perception isn't in a skill group, but it is one of the skills I think everyone needs to take, and you're already stretching BPs, so I don't mind giving the players a little break by putting it in a group. I think adding Intimidation to the group isn't a bad thing, either, mainly b/c it's a skill that pretty much everyone tries to use at some point or another.

Bonuses are dice, penalties are Threshold increases.

Every -2 dice in a RAW description is +1 Threshold.

Wound penalties are Threshold increases rather than dice penalties.

Range Modifiers are +1 Threshold per range band past Short.

No armor stacking. PERIOD. PPP can be added but also adds to the minimum Body requirement for penalties and isn't concealable.

No bullets are AP unless specifically described as much by the ammunition description.

Whilst I'm in no position to houserule in a game, I do wonder how things would change if the soak roll first reduced physical damage to stun and then removed stun once there was no further physical, instead of just removing the damage entirely.

That way you can remove the "damage less than the value of your AV is stun" rule and make your troll soaksam vulnerable to small arms again.

One of my favorites... but PPP is also up there of course, especially the inobvious set... sans helmet, of course, nothing like wearing a helmet to make you stand out...

So, you're proposing a rule that effectively doubles all DVs, since you first have to convert them to stun, and then from stun down to nothing? That would be instant knockout for most characters from almost any weapon. Trollsams would go from "seriously harmed by narrow full burst, but not dead yet" to "why did I bother spending so many points on damage resistance?" Damage resistance is already a losing game, because you need an average of 3 dice to resist 1 DV. You're proposing, not to make the trollsam vulnerable, but to make the trollsam an idiotic choice. The only useful character under your rule would be one that focused on dodge and ignored Body, because Body literally would not matter in a system where all DVs effectively double.

Seems to be what is being implied here... Would never use it myself...

And what, exactly, happens then to the remaining 1.5 you have already lost? It is not healed, as that is only capable through expensive & long genetic treatments. It is not filled with the bioaugmentation Essence loss, because that does not work with RAW.

It then either becomes a 1.5 cybernetic Essence Hole, or permanent Essence loss - I'm inclined to go with the hole.

Why not simply use the old Essence/Bio-Index System again?
Such Problems simply do not show up with that, or am i missing something there?

What your missing is that I am attempting to explain why installing 0.01 Essence of new 'ware, with 1.5 Essence to spare, kills someone due to Essence loss in SR4 RAW (coincidentally, also why healing 0.01 Essence with genetic treatments can do the same thing), & thus why RAW is retarded.

thus me saying:"use the SR3 Bio-Index"

Ok, I think you're making a mistake with your example.



Good so far. Bio exceeds cyber, cyber is halfed, that leaves you with 1.49 Essence.



Check p.128 of Augmentation. It says that essence holes are created "when a character has an implant removed or upgraded." It says nothing about when the balance between cyber and bio does a flip-flop. According to RAW, the only time you get an essence hole is when you remove implants, so adding .2 essence in your example would not create an essence hole. It would change your cyber value to 1.5, your bio value to 3.1, and your total Essence would be 1.4. You can't claim to be applying RAW when you do something that RAW never tells you to do. The one time essence holes result is from the removal of 'ware, not from the change in flip-flops. Flip-flopping of essence totals doesn't make a lot of biological sense, but then again neither does the entire concept of Essence. It just happens. It doesn't create essence holes, because the text never says that it does. And instead of dying, nothing bad happens to you, you just lose a little bit more Essence.

RAW tells us two things:

1) Lost Essence can never be recovered (barring specific genetic treatments, or use of the Essence Drain power)

2) You cannot use Essence lost due to cybernetic installations to fund bioaugmentations.

So, in my example, your cybernetic Essence loss is reduced from 3.0 to 1.5 - leaving 1.5 unaccounted for. You do not regain this lost Essence, and it cannot be used to fund your bioaugmentation. So, what then becomes of it - Essence Hole or Essence Loss? It does not matter either way for this purpose - you now have 1.5 cybernetics, 1.5 unaccounted, & 3.01 bioaugmentation, killing the character.

Yup, you just recalculate the totals and calculate your new Essence. You never took anything out, you just added a little more bio.

And it doesn't have to make biological sense. Changes to biology impact it, but Essence itself isn't biological, it's metaphysical.

And the SR4 Essence is neither biological, nor metaphysical . . it's bad and wrong . . yes, it is badong . .

This is what I think is your flawed assumption. The only essence you lose in this situation is the .2 for your new implant. Your totals being flipped is not losing or gaining essence. You still have 3.0 of Cyber and 3.1 of bio. The flipping, where cyber becomes 1.5, is not regaining 1.5 essence, it's simply changing how your total essence is calculated. That 1.5 essence is still there, it just counts for 1/2.

At the very least, you should be able to agree that my reading of the raw is plausible. I don't need you to agree with me, but it's far from a done deal that the RAW is messed up. You are using a broken interpretation, and refusing to consider alternate interpretations, just so you can dish on the game. If it's a broken interpretation, don't use it, because you have a non-broken interpretation that would 100% solve your problem without disrupting the game in the slightest. If you prefer your interpretation to mine, then use it, but don't complain. Complaining about using your own broken interpretation is like complaining about hitting yourself in the face. You can do it if you want, but you've got nobody to blame but yourself.

Larme is right. There is nothing wrong or retarded with RAW essence.

When you flipflop essence, you dont "lose" nothing. The multiplying factor (*50%) for the lesser essence rating is just for effects of calculating the total impact on essence.

In your exemple, if the char has 3 cyber + 3 bio, then his actual bio rating IS 3. It is turned to 1.5 just for effect of calculating the final impact of implants in your body. It doesnt means anything else than that.

And if you install that 0.01 essence cyber, then its cyber essence would flip flop to 1.505, and his essence total would be 4.505, or ronded up, 4.51.

I have SR4A, and this explanation was cristal-clear to me.

Rather, what's really going on is that when you have 3 cyber and 3 bio it effects your system as if you had only 4.5 essence lost. When you gain that 0.02 cyber flip-flopping which one counds for half it's not "oh, this 1.5 essence lost is now in bioware and not cyber" (or vice versa). What's happening is that it's effecting your system as if you'd only gained 0.015 worth (do the math) of cyber. Your aura is still as fucked up as before, both systems (cyber and bio) are fucking up your system just as much, but it's not killing you. Remember, the "half the lower amount" is a mechanical effect indicating that someone who's already augmented can get a little bit more augmentation safely, provided it's a different kind.

Once again, the essence rule is not complicated.
In response to the question of where 1.5 of essence lost to cyber comes back from upon adding 0.2 essence worth of bioware, i offer a further question. Why, in this situation, does 0.2 essence of bioware cost you 1.7 essence?

What you are saying is correct, but only half of the issue.

You have 3 Essence in cybernetics, applied in full, and 3 Essence in bioaugmentation, applied at 50%, for total Essence loss of 4.5

When you receive another bioaugmentation implant, the larger value shifts, to 3 Essence in cybernetics, applied at 50%, and 3.01 Essence in bioaugmentation, applied in full.

What you are all missing is that, by RAW, you cannot use Essence previously lost to cybernetics to 'discount' bioaugmentation. In the above example, you have 1.5 Essence lost due to cybernetics, & the previous 1.5 loss is still there - it is not instantly 'healed', & it cannot, by RAW, be applied to the now increased bioaugmentation Essence loss.


The final result is 1.5 (cybernetics), 3.01 (bioaugmentation), & 1.5 (cybernetic hole - strict reading of RAW, you don't even get this, its just a flat loss), for a total of 6.01 Essence lost, & the death of the recipient.


The exact same situation can be applied in reverse when someone with sufficient Essence loss (over 3.1 each in cyber & bio) decides to take something out of their 'larger' value & heal it with genetic treatments.

Mind thowing up what you're using as the basis for your assertion? I'm pretty sure I know, but it would be good to have a common reference point.

Even so, a hole is never created. That's what you keep ignoring entirely.

If you have cyber that costs 2 Essence, and you take it out, then you have an Essence hole of 2 that cannot be "filled in" with bioware.

If you have cyber that costs 2 Essence, and you put in 1 Essence worth of bioware, you halve the bio total, and are now down 2.5 Essence.

If you have cyber that costs 2 Essence, you put in 1 Essence worth of bioware (putting you down 2.5 Essence), and you take out the cyber, you are left with 1 Essence worth of bioware and an Essence hole worth 2 Essence. Bio implanted after this can't just fill in that hole, but a month later you get a new piece of cyber that costs 2 Essence. You're down 2.5 Essence.

If you have cyber that costs 2 Essence, and you put in bio that costs 3, you flip the calculations, halving the cost of the cyber and counting the whole of the cost of the bioware, putting you down 4 Essence. No Essence hole is created in this situation.



Emphasis mine.

It's pretty clear.

Has to do with the math of halving one part, then halving the other.

3 and 2.99 (1.495) = 4.495
3 (1.500) and 3.01 = 4.510
subtract and we get 0.015

The other 0.005 is caught up in that 1.495 to 1.5 shift.

By the way, I thought about ditching this essence rule of "keeping 2 separated essence metters and summing the higher one with half the lower one".

If I just sum up all essence costs from all implants together (regardless if its cyber or bio), would it crash the game somehow?

You wouldn't be able to cram nearly as much in, but it wouldn't be unworkable since everyone would have the same limit.

I don't see any problem with it, is what we do for the most part...

Ummm... Draco, i'm fully cognizant ofthe math.
I asked that question of Muspellheimr to get him to reconsider his position; since he insists that when the ratio of bio to cyber flipflops, the full cyber essence loss continues to apply even when the bio loss is also counted as full. This seems to be a profound disconnect which I am attempting to point out. Of course I'm being ignored, except where I can be misinterpreted, which I suppose is par for the course on the internet. <sigh>

Ornot,
You seem to have misunderstood. Muspellheimer isn't saying the full amount of the cyber continues to apply, but rather since you have seperate Cyber and Bio Essense Holes you suddenly get a very large Cyber Essence hole, as follows:

3 Cyber + (2.9 Bio)/2 = 4.45 Essence Lost = 1.55 Essence = Alive and Kicking A
Add 0.2 Bioware and you get.
(3 Cyber)/2 + 1.5 Cyber hole + 3.1 Bio = 6.1 Essence lost = -0.1 Essence = Dead

You'll notice that the Cyber value has been halved, but since by RAW there is, apparently (I havn't checked), two seperate essence holes halving the value of the Cyberware doesn't give you back Essence to use on the Bioware.


And while this mechanic seems illogical, does that necessarily mean its wrong? Metahuman understanding of essence stems from their understanding of magic and magic certainly doesn't follow scientific rules as we understand them IRL. Maybe this is actually the way Cyber and Bioware impact on essence.

Imp

Edit: Clarity and Formatting
Edit: Oops, thats what you get for THINKING you read the entire thread, when in fact you hadn't.

Essence can be measured IP with a good assensing role, and by 2070 there probably have been enough studies to know that for almost everyone a standard Cyberleg costs one Essence. The few exceptions may also have been studied to a suffient extent.

It may have been the intention to screw with characters who start with cyberware and later upgrade to bioware, but IIRC at least one developer regrets that the rule of two holes has been introduced.

In my opinion this rules does not fit in with the fact that there is only one Essence score, as opposed to previous editions, where you had Essence and Bio-Index

And, I'm sold. Anything that makes life easier.

Imp

Either use the one Essence hole thingie that can be filled up with anything you like and say that the switcharoo gives you an essence hole, or simply convert bioware essence cost into bioindex cost and use the 3rd ed bioindex.

I'm jumping into this a little late, but, where does it say in the rules that cyberware and bioware create two separate "holes"?

The way I read the rules, the player, not the character, crunches the numbers down, halving which ever is lower between cyber and bio, then adding it to the higher value. This is not something that the SR universe needs a calculator to figure out. It is just a mechanic to show that cyberware and bioware are not the same thing, and that they affect essence differently in some abstract way that allows overlap.

The game mechanics are abstractions to make a fantasy game playable. In game, I doubt there are corporate mages that write down numbers, stating "a limb is one sixth of the subject's essence", or "the essence loss seems to have shifted after the bioware implant."

That with the two holes is in either an errata or in the FAQ.

This is were I disagree.

Why wouldn't a mage do that? Essence and its loss is just as quantifiable and observable in game as other stats. A good Assensing Test (4 Hits) gives the mage the exact Essence score which ingame equates to the exact knowledge how affected the body is by foreign objects. If he does this test before and after an implant has been installed, he knows exactly what impact the implant has on the person. If there are studies with enough test subjects, you get a pretty good approximation. Especially for expensive treatments like cybermancy this is almost essential. Which corp would like to blow millions of ¥ on a cyberzombie, just to have the subject die on the table, because they tried to cram in 'ware worth 12.01 Essence.

No, it is in the Augmentation:

I actually don't see this as overly complex and have no problem with it. I also don't agree that raiding your bio over 3 (using the previous example) causes one of these holes. It simply shifts whether bio or cyber is the dominant intrusive aspect.

What this rule does is prevent a character from loading up on cyber at creation with the goal of going to all bio later since funds are more available and bio has lower essence costs. In other words, Wired Reflexes 2 can't be removed once you've got the funds (and a contact that maybe the PC spent creation points on just for this) to add in Synaptic Accelerator 3 and 1.5 essence worth of other stuff.

Of course, if the character has the time and money then they can remove the cyber, get gene therapy to fix the 'hole', then add in the bio. That amount of time and cred costs add up, so I'm okay with that. You basically have to remove the ware. Go without it for quite a while (making it harder to make money during that time). Finally, you can put in the new ware.

Yeah, as if mundanes were not gimped enough allready . .
it did not work in SR3, due to essence/bio-Index, so why not simply keep that?

Dear gods people. Am I so completely incomprehensible?

Right... this is my last attempt to explain this in a logical fashion.

You have 6 essence total.

Tally up the essence cost of all your cyber and all your bio.

Divide the smaller number by 2.

Add the two numbers.

That is how much essence you have lost.

If you change the ratio of one to the other, work it all out again.

DO NOT apply cyber or bio essence loss directly to your essence pool; work it out as above every time.

You only get an essence hole when you have 'ware taken out.

I apologise to those of you that feel the same way I do, but people keep quoting me, telling me I'm wrong and then spouting either exactly what I am saying, or utterly failing to explain themselves.

Yes, except for a few key things.

1) The bioware Essence cost is increasing. It cannot be 'discounted' without a bioware hole, which you do not possess, so you suffer the full effects of this increase.

2) The Essence has already been lost from the cybernetic side, & is not restored.


What you are explaining Ornot is how it should work, and how it does with a single Essence Hole for both cybernetics & bioaugmentation, that applies whenever the what you have costs less than what you had. It may even be what was intended. But it is not RAW.

In the example I have been using, you have already lost the full 3 points of Essence to cybernetics. Just because the current cost is reduced to 1.5 does not mean you can ignore the remaining 1.5. It cannot be applied as a discount to bioware, whether it's a hole or not, & your bioware cost has just increased by another 1.5 Essence, thus, the death of the subject.

The reason not to switch back to bio index is that the current rules work 100% fine. There is no automatic death when cyber and bio flip in terms of which one gets divided in half. The new rules work great, and the problem with them has been refuted over and over in this very thread. I actually don't like the old system very much either, 9 bio index is a hell of a lot. The only "brake" on bioware was that you'd go into overstress, but light overstress really didn't matter very much. These rules allow you to have plenty of ware and be very powerful, but you can't load up on 6 essence of cyber AND 9 essence of bio. That was simply too much.

And again, I think we all agree: dividing your cyber or bio in half is not regaining essence, it's just switching how you calculate essence. The rules are very clear the essence holes only happen when ware is removed. Therefore, per RAW, there is nothing at all wrong with the essence rules. Topic over?

Muspell, I think that Ornots point - which I happen to agree upon is something like this.
- You have 6 essence points (so far we agree )
- You have to keep a tally on your essence loss for cyber and bio SEPERATELY
- The highest value (at any given point) you deduct from your essence in full
- The lowest value (at any given point) you divide by two and then deduct from your essence.

When you then install a new piece of equipment, you do not apply it directly to your essence value as you did in SR1-3, rather you go back, and recalculate your cyber- and bio loss seperately - check which one you get to half and then you reapply it to your starting/normal essence.

I agree with you that the current rules work find, Larme. Just to be nit-picky, the old rules for bio index were calculated as Current Essence + 3. As one lost Essence, the amount of bioware you could install also decreased, as there was less "meat" to upgrade biologically.

All correct, except that once you determine which value is halved & which is applied in full, you apply cybernetic & bioaugmentation losses separately - it is not a single lump sum, due to the Essence Hole rules (regardless of if they apply in this circumstance or not, they do make you apply cybernetic & bioaugmetnation losses separately).

While this claim cites a rule, it inaccurately applies the rule to this situation. The book states this:



The book makes no mention of whether this calculation changes when you add more cyberware or bioware, but does acknowledge that the totals could change over time. Using any reasonable logical interpretation this would mean that the equation does not change. The Essence "hole" you describe (for the book example) would be 1.5 from Cyberware and 2.5 from Bioware, as the book clearly states. If you removed the bioware that created that 2.5 essence loss then the character would have a "hole" to the size of 2.5 for bioware. This "hole" could not be filled up with cyberware, and as you can see this also isn't involved in the above equation and so this rule is consistent with the main book's rule on essence loss.




Your example is that a character has 3.0 essence worth of cyberware and 2.9 essence worth of bioware. The character then gets .2 essence worth of bioware. In this case the book clearly indicates that the character has an essence loss of 3.0 from cyberware and an essence loss of 2.9 from bioware. And then later has an essence loss of 3.1 from bioware but maintains the 3.0 from cyberware.

Different terms could have made the process clearer. For example, using the term "essence loss" for the separate totals would seem to be a poor choice as it might confuse people reading quickly or easily confused. So, in order to make this clearer: "Cyberware Essence Loss" is the hole that cannot be filled by bioware (and vice versa) whereas "Total Essence Loss" is a value determined by a simple equation involving "Cyberware Essence Loss" and "Bioware Essence Loss."

Okay, not surprisingly I don't agree with you Muspellheimer. Note I don't have SR4A, only SR4 and I'm looking at page 84 and nowhere does it state anything about essence holes - it seems they were only introduced in Augmentation if I'm not mistaken (I think somebody already mentioned this).

In Aug pg. 20 it states that "The removal of an augmentation that costs essence resultst in an "essence hole"..", nowhere is it implied that essence holes can occur in the way you describe.

Furthermore also on page 20 in Aug second paragraph under the boldfaced Essence it goes:
Essence losses from cyber and bio are tracked separately. Only the higher of the two totals deduct from essence in full, the other deducting only half.

This more than implies (to me) that you indeed do calculate it in the way I (and others) have desribed. You calculate cyber loss in one column, bio in the other - halfing the lower one and then apply it to essence. Should your essence loss for bio and/or cyber change you go back and re-start your calculations.

Oh, and regarding lump sum, if that bothers you (even if I'm not sure I wrote that) then you just deduct first the cost for cyber and then the cost for bioware.

Can I ask you to do something? Take a cup of your favourite beverage and sit down and read page 84 in SR4 (or similar in SR4A) and page 20 in Augmentation - thinking that what it says is the way it's been laid out here and try to see if it makes sense or not.

Yes, everyone agrees that you're wrong. Now maybe you can agree to disagree with us, and end the conversation, because it's just going in circles now. We can get back to the topic of house rules that people think are essential.

Here's a couple of mine:

Movement Rules

Movement Rates
Humans, elves, orks Walking = 3m/IP, Running = 6m/IP
Dwarfs Walking = 2m/IP, Running = 4m/IP
Trolls Walking = 4m/IP, Running = 9m/IP

Rules for Sprinting
1 success = 2m/turn or 1m/IP (rounding up)
2 success = 4m/turn or 1m/IP
3 success = 6m/turn or 2m/IP (rounding up)
4 success = 8m/turn or 2m/IP
5 success = 10m/turn or 3m/IP (rounding up)
6 success = 12m/turn or 3m/IP
...

I couldn't stand us always have to screw around with a 1/3 of a hex movement, so I just made all rates divisible by 4 and we all have 4 IPs. Even is some are only available for continued movement. As for the virtual 5th IP...it doesn't involve movement so its not affecting anything else.


Distance Change
1m = 4feet = 1hex

And this I did because I'm an American and can't think in meters. This effectively turns everything into hexes and the only impact is that I have to scale my maps to 1 hex = 4 feet.

I did expand a little on the training rules (basically associating costs to finding trainers, since I couldn't find anything like that in RAW) and a new system for addictions. I'll share those if anyone is interested.

I have Movement House Rules in my game as well.

I have divided up everyone's movement over 5 passes (mostly because it makes the base numbers divisible, but also because my hacker player has 5 passes).

EVERYONE gets to move on all 5 passes. It prevents silliness like a 1 Pass guy being able to get somewhere before the someone with more passes. Now, Initiative matters for movement, and it becomes a lot more tactical for movement.

I also am adding the "Switch Mode" to apply to running versus walking change (stolen from someone on Dumpshock!).

Of course, my players tend to stand out in the open and blast away, depite the consequences...

From the 'Can a rating 1 Commlink run programs' thread. A commlink can run up to response programs without penalty, penalties apply at response +1.

Oh and for the record, I agree with Muspellheimer. But would tend to ignore it on grounds of RAI, as Dakka Dakka implied.

Imp