well ill be...

either it was like that in older editions, or i have never really read the assensing table in proper detail...

Gotcha on what you were responding to.

Still not getting why people think that a mage walking around with any force anything spell is somehow randomly getting noticed by the general public. Yeah, it's easier to see when a force 4 spell is being cast, but once its done you still have to be able to see the astral to "notice the guy with the spell on him."

This is part of the metagaming this thread has been attempting to discuss.

How do mundanes, the vast majority of the populace, tell the difference between a Force 3 and a Force 4 spell? (Answer: They can't.)

(In general,) How do mundanes even notice if a Mage has a spell sustained? (Answer: They can't.)



Even if the opposition has Assensing, they need 4 hits to tell "The exact Essence, Magic and Force of the subject." (SR4A, pg. 181)

The only difference is that a Force 4 is easier to notice by a mundane, but all they'll get is, "Holy shit that guy's casting a spell." What spell, what force, targeting who? No clue.

Exactly, so there is no automatic recognition of spells that are past the legal threshold of 3. Not even mundanes trained to deal with mages can tell the exact force.


And more importantly, they have no means of even noticing (much less recognizing the exact force) spells that are being sustained that were cast prior.



So unlike the guy hauling around an assault rife in public, a mage sustaining a spell has a significantly greater chance of going completely unnoticed and that's the kind of thing that the media in SR feeds on, that's why people fear mages - because you can't tell who is a mage nor what they are up to just by looking at them.

That's one key point to make. I've just been assuming everyone was keeping it at the forefront, but it might be worth making sure it's part of the thread: people around the mage can potentially notice (Perception test) the mage casting. Once that spell has taken effect, however? Mundanes have no way of seeing it. (And yes, of course they can see a spell with a visual effect; that does go without saying.)

It doesn't matter what force the spell is. Unless you're able to see the astral, you have no idea the guy's a mage. Even if you can see the astral, you have to successfully assense the mage to see how powerful the spell is. And even if you can see the astral and you assense and discern that it's a powerful spell, any reaction that the viewer/observer takes should befit the situation and context.



Word.

That's quite metagamey again. There's more than a fair chance that the spell in question is Improved Logic (all the corp researches would love this one). It's more like walking around carrying a briefcase - it might have a gun in it or it might just be papers... and it should get about the same amount of attention as a guy carrying a briefcase.

How are mundanes able to tell the difference between someone who is casting a spell and someone who is ordering a pizza in AR? I wave my hands a little and mumble, and 20 minutes later I get a pizza ... or not. What about someone who is playing a game? Or someone in a business meeting, calling up schematics? How is the average person supposed to tell the difference between the subtle gestures of spell casting, or not so subtle gestures, as the case may be, and someone using AR? According to the media, mages wave their arms, shout and dance? The lack thereof shouldn't set anyone off. What if someone is partaking in a concert halfway around the world? They yell and shout, because they are half way there, but to the people on the bus, he is no more dangerous than the person today with a boom box enthusiastically listening to his music. Even if they see a shamanic mask, it is only for a moment, and the person is left thinking, "What did I just see? Was that magic?" If no apparent crime is reported to the cops along with the, "He did magic!" I don't think there will be much response. How many times a day do they receive that call when someone acts wierd? And I still go back to the whole AR schizophrenia thing.

Writer, that post is full of awesome and win.

Sigged. That is worth saving.

Writer: first off, I generally agree with you.
But in terms of game mechanics if somebody passes the perception test for noticing somebody casting a spell - how you RP that noticing is mechanically irrelevent, he noticed and therefore has a chance to react.

Now how that person reacts is a question of context: if your in a tense meeting between parties who are as like to kill each other as defecate in the woods then it'd be entirely appropriate to open up (casting a spell, any spell, at that point is tantamount to reaching into a jacket - they may or may not be reaching for their concealed gun, but is it worth waiting to find out?).
Doing the same on a crowded bus and it would have an altogether different effect.

What's true for casting spells is equally true for sustained spells. Those people who succeed in noticing them can react to them (its exceedingly difficult* to succeed in noticing something only able to be sensed on the astral when you lack an astral sense). How they react is based on context.

In some contexts a sustained spell is enough to tip the balance** for getting you shot, in other contexts its enough for a negative reaction (ie to get you searched and your SIN and licenses interrogated, or to have the Johnson walk out on you***), in others it'll pass unnoticed and in yet others it'll get you better treatment (Magic to a large extent equals money and or power in the corporate world and money and power equals visible respect from the peons).

As a GM and a player you have to be alive to these contexts and if players/NPCs act inappropriately for their context their needs to be consequences. But, and here's the rub, different players, GMs intrepret the context differently.

Imp

*I don't like the term 'impossible' because given the exact right set of conditions it may be possible, I don't know.
**Only very rarely would a sustained spell alone, devoid of any other causal factors, be sufficient justification for killing a guy. And in those circumstances its probably because the guy pulling the trigger has a sociopathic hatred of the awakened (ie BANG! BANG! BANG! What, I don't like witches.)
***'I'm sorry, would you kindly remove that spell. I find it exceedingly rude, and if it continues this meeting doesn't.' Equally, I can imagine a sign over a bar favoured by the awakened which says 'The owner/manager of these premises reserves the right to deny entry to any persons under the effect of an active spell' in much the same way most people are expected to check guns at the door (when you refuse and give him lip the Fomori bouncer kicks two shades of #$@% out of you).

I agree with most of what you wrote Imp but, noticing something you don't have sensor for is just plain impossible. Noticing a spell lacking phyiscal clues without assensing is like sensing electomagnetic fields without Ampullae of Lorenzini. It does not work.

Actually, if your close enough and the EM radiation is strong enough you'll start slow cooking yourself. Something I'm told you can actually sense, its subtle, its takes a while but you can (apparently) feel it (its why sitting on HF radio antenna whips is now considered a bad idea). That being my point, your impossible is my exceedingly difficult.

Imp

Edit: Actually, now that I think about it, there was a mate of mine with a metal plate in his head who used to get splitting headaches from EM radiation. We're talking levels that are considered 'safe' for everybody else.

The difference in those examples is that while you still cannot sense the EM fields you can sense the effects such a field can have on your body or foreign objects in your body and then know that this probably is caused by an EM field. The problem with sustained spells is that some of them don't have effects that can be sensed, unless assensing. Increase Logic for example. While talking to a person with this spell on him, you might find out that he is terribly smart, but you cannot sense whether that is a natural condition, 'ware, or a spell.

To me, an interesting issue, though I am not sure if it is still the case in SR4, was the old "Spells above Force 3 need a permit." With the continued refinement of magical theory and the increase of Manaflow to the point where magicians can now put any amount of Force they are capable of casting into a single spell..... How do you license a Force 3+ Spell? Or is it that, if a Mage has a Magical Power Rating(as determined through assensing and a battery of tests), that they have to register all their spells? How does one enforce registering what one knows? Heck...if I have Healing spells registered(since my Licenses would be broadcast through AR), and I see an accident, would I be obligated to be there and use the spells, just like I would be obligated if I, RL, was certified in First Aid?

Something to remember, of course, is that if I have a sustained spell, and can cast it at Force 4+, and have it registered, my licenses ARE showing up in AR. So, I am walking down the street, and the cops see me with Sustained spells, they look at my licenses, see I am licensed Armor(my SIN info says I work as free-lance bodyguard, and live in a neighborhood that, while OK, is really close to the Barrens), Improved Charisma, Improved Intuition, and Stun Bolt. I am, apparently, in "Condition Yellow" state of alertness. Am I a threat to them just walking down the street to buy some halibut at the fish market?

The problem is, we all know that we are playing SR and the GM is knowing this too. So we usually don´t get into usual interactions or sitations mundanes or civilians do. I, for myself, can´t even go to a pub without being harrased, shot, or socially attacked in any way. If WE go out on the streets, we go there to cause trouble. And unfortunately everybody seems to smell that.

This kind of sounds like pink mohawk players vs grey trenchcoat gm. If that is fun for you, that is great.

Naaa...I´m playing an charisma-7-female-elven-mage with an academically background. But does it make my life easier? Nope

What do you mean, "can't have a sensor"? A simple ward will be triggered by a sustained spell. Watch them bounce around, or force their way through, or just check the entry time stamp with the log from your magical security provider, which will most like arrive within seconds.

(Mage senses ward getting disrupted, informs client at once by priority message.)

People seem to forget how cheap wards are, and how much of a hassle they make sustained spells.

I think the main focus of this thread is questioning whether someone will be harassed, or even noticed if they have a sustained spell active on their person. Yes, wards are cheap, but you won't find them at every corner. You won't find them in public places, such as parks, sidewalks, libraries, grocery stores, or any store, for that matter. What is the point of keeping out astral intrusion if someone is expected to walk through the front door? The back rooms may be protected, as well as private rooms and business offices.

But, getting back to a mage with a sustained spell, chances are, no one will notice, or care, if they have a sustained spell in ordinary life. If you want that spell for a meeting with a Johnson, agree to neutral ground, where there isn't a ward. Want that spell for a business meeting in the warded board room? Well, maybe there is a reason there a ward active. Ask if it is okay. Need that boost of Charisma for a speech on next seasons CEO approved marketing campaign? Go for it. Need it for the Logic for some research in a restricted lab? If it will help you find the answers faster, no problem.

Think of magic as a knife, not a firearm. There are too many good reasons to have a pocket knife to panic whenever one is discovered, or even suspected. Everyone from carpenters and electricians to craftswomen and stockboys carry them. Some call them box cutters. Some call them terrorist weapons. It all depends on whether you are using it to cut up a box, or are holding it to the throat of a stewardess. Magic can enhance your abilities, protect you, keep you healthy, make you look better, and a whole range of other uses. Oh, yeah, it can also fry your brain or turn you into goo. Are utility knives inappropriate in some places? Yes. But you don't get shot for having one in public.

While the potential of magic is in a whole different league than a simple knife, those that can detect magic will understand it isn't something to fear unless it is being misused. I don't fear the martial artist or the soldier or the power lifter waiting in line with me at the bank. I expect them to obey the laws and not try to kill me. I also believe that the authorities can stop this person, should they decide to go psycho. All I have to do is survive until they arrive. In most public areas, the mage probably won't be detected, but if, for some reason, people recognize his potential, and all he is doing is waiting in line at the bank, they may oggle and stare, oo and ahh, but no one is going to start shooting.

Unless of course, the game master feels the player needs some excitement while waiting for the pizza to arrive.

Except we're talking about walking around in public with sustained spells.

Unless in your games, mages have been paid to ward entire city blocks.

How many of you have curtains so people can't peep into your home from the street?

How many of your wealthy/famous NPCs are concerned about astral intruders/voyeurs?

Why wouldn't most locations that the upper class frequents be warded?

In my game, wards are standard security for high lifestyles and corresponding offices, clubs and shops. And where there are no wards, odds are, no one really cares about spells anyway because no one important lives there.

Well, you CAN'T even ward entire city blocks. A warded space must be enclosed. You can't just amorphously ward "that 3 meter bubble over there by the fountain" in some park unless you put up some walls.

Edit: Read "enclosed" as "having a 3d boundary demarcated by objects." So theoretically you could ward a crosswalk by using the street and points on the 20th storey of the buildings on each corner.

Up to and including force 3 I do.
Beyond that every spell needs to be registered even if it's just a boost charisma to get a date with that hot secretary in your office.
You simply can't know if the guy casting his illegal force 5 makeover on himself also has manaball in his repertoire so you better expect the worst.

Spells don't have Force ratings anymore, except at the point of casting. For three editions, you acquired spells with specific force ratings. Now, however, you just acquire the spell. You can't register force ratings.



Sometimes, the Force doesn't even indicate how powerful the spell is.



The Force is a limiter, but if you cast a Force 6 spell and only get 3 hits, do you have to register it?



I agree with this, mostly, but any shop that let's people walk into its commercial area isn't going to ward that same area. A cybershop may ward the surgery rooms. A clothing store may ward the dressing rooms. Any shop might ward its back office rooms. Offices probably won't worry too much about it in non-sensitive areas. While the amount of money a company is paying to lease another building might be of interest to a competitor, paying a mage to manifest and hang out in a business office wouldn't be worth it. Yes, the mage has to manifest to actually hear words. Otherwise, they get the emotional interests of the speakers. Also, most data will be transmitted by AR, so, again, the mage won't pick up anything. And, having a mage manifest, clearly magical and unusual, will draw magical security.

I'm having trouble imagining where a mage would run into a ward on an average day of shopping and running errands. Most official errands will probably be done online, while most shopping will want people to come in, so privacy isn't an issue.

And install a camera system, and set up a matrix feed, and charge by the minute.

But that would be illegal in most jurisdictions, Mr. Eidolon, and ... oh, I didn't realize it was that cheap. How much to access the archives?

A normal wall is opaque to astral. It will keep an astral form from looking into your home from the street.


Most if not all. However, see the next point.


Quite simply - because the upper class might be hampered by these same wards. With any security, you have to consider if the intereference in your own life is worth the added security. While many people are not magical, there are enough that putting up "walls without doors" is problematic.


Clubs and shops have "walls without doors"? That would be pretty contrary to allowing public access. Alarm wards would be fine - like a bell that rings when you open the door, but the standard ward is counterproductive in many cases. Remember that if your SR incorporates pieces of a world that requires handicap access to public buildings, it's not too hard to imagine that wards preventing entry to dual natured individuals is going to be a no-no on such places too.

Alarm wards seem terribly underused when they should easily be the most common type of ward.


Or they have enough Awakened presence to know that too many "walls without doors" is problematic.

"Walls without doors" make perfect sense if a) you can grant permanent, easy access to people with little hassle (such as if I hire a company to ward my home), and b) the people it blocks out really can't do much there anyway (what's the point of allowing in astrally projecting mages to my bar if they can't drink and can't pay? Should I seriously be concerned that this will also keep out people with 'increase charisma', 'trid phantasm - tip' and vicious shapeshifters out as well?)

The number of businesses which benefit from allowing CUSTOMERS to walk in while sustaining spells or astrally projecting is fairly low. The number who will suffer by excluding those people is only ever so slightly higher. And certainly, the benefits to any business which transacts private business vocally, or which physically keeps secrets which it might suffer by sharing, are significant. I would imagine many social gathering places would have a ward or guardian spirit, and basically all banks, data storage areas and other moderate or high sensitivity locations.

I'd also like to point out that wards are far from the only tool available here. An elemental bound to an area can be quite effective, and more discerning. It allows security to pick and choose who enters, without requiring the original caster on site. But this goes back to the question of, what does security do when a suspicious looking guy sustaining spells on himself enters the room.

Absolutely true to the first part, but for the second the answer has already been provided. See posts #61 (Me) and #70 (Writer).

But to give it another take: to answer the question 'what does security do when a suspicious looking guy sustaining spells on himself enters the room?' you need to know so much more.
Other questions need to be answered, like:
What is the room?
How appropriate is magic to the circumstances?
In what way is the character looking suspicious (if its just another sex offender with an enlarged wang, well then that's just a little more added to the price, and the guard saying 'Could you come this way, sir, your private booth is ready.')?
What form of security is it (a bouncer, a rental cop or an ex-Sami Corporate bodyguard)?
How does the security view magic?

As ever, Context is King. Different reactions to sustained spells are appropriate for different circumstances in exactly the same way different reactions to knives, guns, dead fish, massive bodymodification etc etc etc are appropriate in different circumstances. Attempting to definitively answer the question is, as a result, impossible* because of all the possible permutations. Its up to GMs and players to decide this for themselves while they play the game.

*This time its appropriate, .

Imp

Imagine you're a rich (and therefore good looking) citizen in the 6th world. Imagine all the urban legends going around - people waking up next to a male troll they thought was a female elf the night before. People getting mind controlled, and "donating" all their money - or worse. Etc. etc.

I know that I'd rather frequent a bar where people can't walk in with spells active, and dual-natured beings can't walk in. I'd prefer a bar where there's active magical security, so no one can mind trick me for all sorts of purposes, but at least wards will make sure that any spell on me will be wiped when I leave, and mundane security can stop a number of the things a mage could try with me the bar.

I really do not see how "our place is warded" is supposed to be a negative advertising for most shops and clubs catering to rich people.