The assumption is that all sustained spells are 'combat buffs' and that having them on is like walking around town with a shotgun in your hands. This is often especially true with sustaining foci and quickening. I've seen this appear quite often on Dumpshock, and I disagree with it.

There are a great many spells that non-ciminals would love to have cast on them and sustained via foci or quickened. The Health spells provide such things as boosts to Charisma, Intuition, Logic, and Willpower - things that would certainly come in handy for corporate execs and researchers. Firefighters and divers would both love Oxygenate. Alleviate Allergy and Alleviate Addiction should be reasonable treatment plans for the elite with such problems. In fact, I'm sure that somewhere in the Sixth World, hair loss and male enhancement have been the subject of spell research too. Detection, Illusion, and even Manipulation spells can certinly find some legitimate use too, although the book-provided spells are generally oriented towards the needs of a runner team so fewer examples are available.

I guess that I'm just having a bit of a knee-jerk reaction against what seems to be metagaming (Oh, it's a spell - most of the ones in the book are best for illegal crap - so that guy with the spell on him must be up to something.).

iirc, if one can see that its a spell, 1 or more added successes can tell one the specific spell...

If you take the time to Assense, not simply at a glance.

the same applies to various forms of cybertechnology and genetech, as well. simply having cybered limbs doesnt necessarily make you a dangerous person. there's also context to consider. if im an awakened lone star on foot patrol and i find someone bearing a sustained spell im going to notice that person and judge their actions. if i have the time and the subject isn't standing in a crowd of other folks with sustained spells im going to try to assense what magics he is using. if i dont have the time to do a thorough check on him i will note what he is doing and if his actions are out of place i will then bring it to the attention of my comrades as a possible threat. if he begins to show suspicious activity we may stop him and ascertain his intentions. this doesnt mean i am on high alert, approaching with the full might of my magics ready to blast him and my weapon at the high-ready. if he then shows hostile intent i use whatever means i need, through escalations of force, to eliminate the threat.
so to your point, daze, i agree with you

Absolutely agree. On both HD's and fox's points.

It's not only metagaming, it's blatant disregard for the game world fluff and fiction.

OK, now I totally want to make a mage with Grow Hair and Enlarge Wang spells.

I wonder what happens when you cast Enlarge Wang on a woman...

Clitoromegaly.

I'm imagining something akin to a female hyena (the malest of the male hyenas are in fact female).

Nothing - Enlarge Wang has a restricted target (males) adjustment to reduce the Drain.

Oh...

I'm not the only one that actually has weird spells like this statted out am I?

Yes you are . .
Create Bullshit ain't weird <.< . .

I guess I missed that part on the character sheet.

If you're not rich and you have a spell on you, it's probably illegal.

If you're not uber-rich and you have a spell above force 3 on you, it's probably illegal.

So the poor magician can't cast any kind of spell ever.

Gotcha.

Well, iirc spells above force 3 require a permit, so will probably get the same reaction as someone openly carrying a gun or somesuch.

If an awakened officer saw you, astral scanned you, and assensed you, I can see him wandering over to ask if you have a permit for that spell, why you're using it, etc. Anyone can see a gun on your hip. Very few people can see that spell you have going.

Anyone else? What the hell do they know? Could be totally legit. Don't forget that you've got to be able to assense to tell what it is in the first place, so who's going to hassle you? Another random mage on the street that happened to notice the spell, assense you, and wants to play good Samaritan? Not likely. One, he doesn't want you to kill him. Two, he's likely got a few tricks of his own that the five-oh don't know about/like.

It just breaks the fourth wall to have everyone going "omg! force 3 spell on him get him get him."

Also, what happens if the spell is cast on SOMEBODY ELSE?
like the troll mage casting charisma on the poor orc to help him with a date?

Which is the same thing that would happen to you if you carry a gun and are not in the wrong place at the wrong time.
If you are then any high force spell and/or gun might trigger some heftier reactions.

There are a few small problems with this.

1. Magicians are really rare - only one in a few hundred people are actually capable of becoming one, and slightly less actually do. Of these, quite a lot end up attracted to shamanic totems completely unsuitable for Lone Star work (having a berserk combat mage around is almost always more of a liability than an asset.) As such, magically active beat cops are extremely rare - most of the mages are assigned to high-security targets or rapid response teams.

2. Astral perception is all fine and dandy, but picking out one magically active individual out of a huge crowd is nearly impossible - there's just too many people.

3. A competent magician can also pick out people with low Essence. Unlike magicians, many of whom specialize in curative medicine or other benign pursuits, the only reason someone would have an essence less than 1 is because he or she is a freaky killing machine.

No, they can't cast a spell while in a nice neighborhood. This is sort of a tautology though, because what is a poor person doing in a nice neighborhood anyway (cleaning people excepted, of course)? You should generally expect that, if you're in an A area or above, and you look poor, the police are going to harass you or, at minimum, give you the dirty eyeball. Damn poor people. If you don't like it, stop being poor.

But as he bounces off the wards on the doors of a lot of places....

Why not? This isn't D&D, where casting a spell means flailing around chanting in fake languages and sprinkling bat shit on yourself (not knocking it, love me some D&D). You think "I guess I'll cast a spell" and you cast it. You can even do it while walking and chewing gum. (I'm being slightly facetious; I realize that there are rules for noticing that somebody is casting.)

So my problem with this notion of "everyone will know you have an illegal spell going you can never cast one anywhere aaaarrrrrrrgg" still stands. It doesn't matter what kind of neighborhood you're in, somebody that's capable of detecting not only that you have a spell up, but also that it's restricted still has to have a reason to check you out, and check you out successfully, before you even begin to have to worry. On top of that, a good fake license, fake SIN, and a fake story (not even necessarily all three) are the next step.

You might argue that in a nice neighborhood there are more potential entities that have the capability to notice (more police presence, more astral security presence in the form of watchers maybe, etc.), but they still have to have a reason to notice and then pick you out and assense you. It's still not the instant arrest/death sentence some people seem to be arguing that it is.

...And quite frankly, if you toss up an increase charisma/bullet barrier/detect enemies spell in a nice neigborhood and your fake licence on your fake SIN checks out according to Astral Perception Cop's commlink, he has all the more incentive NOT to bother you unless you're behaving in a suspicious manner. Why? Because the rich people that live there pay the cops to be unobtrusive. Rich people can afford those spells. Rich people expect to be deferred to, as well, not questioned by someone that makes a tenth what they do.

Cops constantly heckling every corporate mage or dude with a mage friend iat the country club is a good way to annoy those people, and they have the money and influence to suggest your zeal may better serve the community in a more dangerous and less expensive area of town. Where people are less likely to be annoyed by inane questions - or at least less likely to be able to do anything about it.

"I'm a mage. People want to hurt me. Are you telling me it is illegal to protect myself with an Armor spell?"

"Normally, I don't think so well. I have this gift of magic, so under my tutors guidance, I learned Increase Logic. Now, I can do my own shopping. Do you want to take away my corporation given rights to think?" (Okay, so maybe that last bit will need some Fast-Talk.)

"It is a new spell called Comfort. It makes my new clothes feel very comfortable. See my smile? The spell is working."

"I'm going to help a friend move, so I cast Increase Strength on myself."

"I'm going bird watching, so I have Detect Birds sustained."

"That beautiful scent you smell? Just an illusion. Smells good, though, doesn't it?"

"THAT CONSTANT STREAM OF FIRE COMING FROM MY FINGERTIPS? THAT IS MY VENGENCE UPON --" *BLAM* *BLAM* *BLAM*
"Yes, sir, we found the disturbence. Situation Resolved. Alert the fire department."

My point is simply that when you intend to run around with a spell of force 4 quite often you may want to get a (fake) license for it.
Just like the guy who carries a pistol.
I don't see a reason for exceptions there.

Indeed, if your point is that no one would notice you have a spell cast, that is a valid argument. I was assuming, a priori, that we're talking about a situation where, for whatever reason, the police notice you casting/sustaining the spell first (maybe you have trouble in a ward. Maybe it has obvious effects. Whatever.)

I agree, if the police cannot detect you have a spell sustained, they will not target you for that particular reason. Since less than 1% of the population is capable of astral projection, and most of them are going to find better jobs than beat cop, it is seriously unlikely you're going to get in much trouble for that reason. Perhaps a civilian might notice and tell the police to harass you, but in that case, that civilian is already rich and you're already poor, and they can make up whatever reason they like (the police can't easily verify the story), so they aren't actually picking on you specifically for sustaining a spell.


However, they'll still harass you for being poor.

Few things to think about when looking at how sustained spells might be looked at, by canon.

1. Magic is rare, and there's very rarely an active magical patrol unless extra security dictates. Megacorp office, check. Local strip mall, not likely. Sustained spell less likely to be noticed in the Ikea store just off that.

2. Few people can work magic, let alone understand it's limitations. This means those that *do* have the ability to catch it will also not likely freak out thinking a makeover spell is actually concealing some ravenous demon/bug spirit hybrid from Mars.

3. Joe Schmo beat cop, unless a mage/adept/etc., has no possible way of knowing if someone is a caster or not, only suspicions. The elf there with twigs in his hair, elaborate tribal designs all over his body, and a massive tome with the word SPELLS written on it? Might be a hint in there. The troll with a chipped library in his comm, wired up to his fancy sunglasses that match his corp suit? Much less hint-y.

4. Magical ability and knowledge is hard to gauge, even for those in the know. Billy the Brawler there with the club, you know what he can do. Adam the Mage however, might've decided to take some time to work up the spell Slay Part-Time Security Guard just to keep his Drain in check. Or Obliterate Living Matter. Or whatever else this week's trid says.

5. Last point of the moment, magic use ups the ante immediately and (often) lethally. Bar fight goes bad, some drunk stabs or even shoots the other, and the charges vary. Same fight, but the drunk is an adept or a mage and uses their ability and the other guy dies, it's an automatic Murder One. Thank Brackhaven for that.


Not trying to sound like the same old, "Oh Noes, magic is teh uber!" sort, but look at it from the standpoint of the scared, helpless, biased and ultimately more dominant majority. Spell-slinging is dangerous, there's no way to really attempt to control who has it, and those that don't get scared. Same for the Rage riots, technomancers (in Emergence) and so on. I'd also suggest checking out more of the X-Men stories for similar parallels. Humanity doesn't like being (or believing they are) #2 to anything.

To muddy that up even more, you have the posers that like to run around looking like what people expect a mage to look like. Fake talismans, sticks in the hair, "magical writing" tats, the works. So that dolt with the "spellbook", yeah, he's not the one that just blasted the security guard.

There is also a little bit of 'Trid is reality' going on. Unless he's actually dealt with magic before to a large extent Mr Part-Time-Security-Guard is going to think that magic actually works the way it does in the trids. So in Eidolan's example above that poser kid may well get shot by the jumpy guard whilst the actual mage sitting in a parked car with the tinted windows isn't even seen.
This effect is going to reduce with experience and training (the professional rating), So while a mall security guard probably has no idea what magic looks like, a Lone Star cop probably had a day of lectures on how the 'magic' you see in a trid is wrong.

Also, what hasn't been mentioned yet is jurisdiction. Magic is treated very differently in different parts of the world. Walking through London with a sustained spell and no obvious license for it is going to get a very different response than doing exactly the same thing in Kingston.

In any event, much like an orc driving a decent car, an obviously awakened character (ie somebody has/should noticed) is probably going to get more attention than regular joe next to him. Given the right set of circumstances (cops with an anti-awakened beef - say some other cops have been killed by magic recently - and add a little bit of confusion) this could result in a shooting (for the 'right' set of circumstances, think about any times cops have shot an innocent because the cops 'thought' they were going for a gun).

Take this as an example of the 'right' set of circumstances to get a PC killed for legal use of magic:

Regular day in Seattle, you as GM have provided a little flavour with a news report of a cop dying during a drug bust. Rumours are that an awakened criminal did it and he got away. As a result Lone Star is a little jumpier than usual.

Two of your characters are driving down the street and get pulled over as part of a routine traffic stop. One of the cops (a rookie) has astral vision - he's not even awakened, just has astral vision - and spots a sustained spell. He tells his partner. They come over, asks the guy with the sustained spell to get out. The player decides to be funny and gives them some lip. You and the other players around the table laugh. The cops don't, they draw and ask again for him to get out. He gets out and thinks - because he's in a hurry and has contraband in the boot - it might be a good idea to boost his charisma and fast talk them. His eyes glaze over just a little and both cops (who by this time have held an action and are looking for any strange moves) open up. The other player (the driver) makes the best of bad situation and speeds away - his character never really did like the arrogant mage anyway.

The same example above would work without the astral vision and the sustained spell if the character in question was a NAN Shaman with a couple of reasonably obvious fetishes, anything to make a cop think that he should pay more attention and be a little more alert to danger. To be less harsh (it being a little extreme to kill a PC at a regular traffic stop) you could have both Cops draw tasers or be firing stick and shock ammo instead.

Imp

Except for that large number of spells which have obvious physical effects. Trid phantasm, armor, invisibility (if you see a figure topple through the postcard rack, that's worth shooting at and, maybe later, questioning), flaming fingers, drumstick fortress, 'turn to soup'... All pretty obvious. I'd argue even increased reactions may be noticed enough to be worth shooting at (although whether it's due to magic or an illegal mod is undetermined, and ultimately, pretty academic).

Put quite succinctly by Inane and nezumi, magic is not something that's lightly played around with. Shadowrun's dealt with it for a long time, the people living in the world have *some* knowledge of it. But a lot of that is helped out by the mass media, and also culturally/regionally.

Some places are more likely to look better on an active magic user, especially one that conforms to what they expect. A shaman in the NAN is likely to be highly respected, so long as they don't run over wildlife in their SUV while blaring the latest single by the Trogs. Other places, not so much.

In a nutshell, in every game I've ever read about that had magic, there was always one (usually) unspoken rule that Shadowrun 1st Ed ended up putting into print; Geek the mage first. There are numerous reasons, but I doubt anyone can deny that logic when they're staring at an opposing team with a caster. Don't be obvious, don't stand out too much, and if at all possible, hire some slot to run around with the group dressed in animal hides and twigs, carrying a large book that says "SPELLS."

The point is that not every mage needs to be 'geeked' - there are plenty of non-combat magicians out there in the world, and not everyone with a spell on them is a magician. Regardless, you're playing a sociopath if you shoot someone at the first indication that they have a spell on them (and what did his extra 3 cm of wang ever do to you). Some people want to play sociopaths, and if that's your thing, go for it - but the setting should treat you like a sociopath.

Only 1 centimeter per hit? You'd need five hits to get an extra two inches, meaning fifteen dice for a reasonable degree of reliability. I'm thinking Grade 3 initiates have better things to do with their mojo than make somebody's genitals bigger.

The Noticing Magic section says nothing about recognizing a specific spell, neither does the assensing table.

You proved only that more improvements need to be made! Males being as they are, some Grade 3 initiates will still be plugging away research towards an improved version of Enlarge Wang in several corporate facilities.

Males being as they are, I'm pretty sure there must be an Enlarge Bust spell floating around. 1 cup size per hit, anyone?

My Spam email folder would suggest otherwise.

Ain't that the truth...

http://xkcd.com/570/

You beat me to it ...

This. Mages may not be common, but wards are common in the better areas. And just about everyone doing security - from bodyguard to those doing the system layout - for anyone with money will take magic into account. Spirits, wards, watchers - sustained spells can draw a lot of attention, and for mundanes, they are often too much of a hassle to use, with wards around.

Dude, this is fragging Shadowrun. Three quarters of the population is kept, by force, in the rotting, radioactive, acid-rain coated remains of the city and denied the right to rent shelter or buy food. This is what's enforced by the LAW and has been institutionalized. As a matter of practice, hospitals find living people and chop them up to sell their organs to the rich and the police, rather than enforce peace, intentionally instigate mass gang wars to keep the poor too busy and too dead to make trouble in protected areas. This isn't your daddy's Portland. We aren't 'nice' to other people, except when there's something in it for us.

Now imagine if you will, you see some dumb trog in pants with patched knees and a heavy, armored jacket spray-painted with a gang logo wandering through your turf hauling some big-ass assault rifle. What do you do? Do you walk up to him and ask to see his permit? Do you call for backup and wait? Sure, maybe. But if you whip out your gun and shoot him first, no one is going to be asking you any questions. The guy is clearly trouble, and that's just one less armed trog on the street. It's only an issue if he was someone.

Now imagine, if you will, you see some dumb trog with the patched pants and armored jacket, but now he's floating down the street, glowing bright and lightning leaps from his fingertips. Are you going to go ask HIM to see his permits? Hell no! I wouldn't even wait for backup. Those mages can read your mind, then turn it to goo. This is a fragging hostile takeover. You take that dumb trog DOWN, or you turn tail and let some other poor schlob decide.

You gotta remember what magic is. It's like a lead box labelled 'enriched uranium' in block letters. Sure, he might be a nuclear engineer for Renraku, or he might be putting that in his DeLorean. But if he's dressed like a damn bum and has that burning anger in his eyes, you gotta figure he's not here for puppies and flowers.

nezumi, your examples prove that you have no idea what I'm talking about. You have failed the thread.

Nez, you're still on "poor guy in an AAA neighborhood," but I think you were the only one ever talking about that, really. You've got a point, that if you look like trouble making gutter trash surrounded by sparkles and fairy dust you're out of place and suspicious, but it doesn't really have that much to do with the thread's meta-concept, which is that mages tend to get unduly harassed in games and it doesn't reflect the game world (in which very few people would know the person was a mage in the first place if they weren't advertising it). Slight disconnect somewhere.

Also, the number of people kept in the barrens is one quarter, not three quarters.

Didn't quite mean to make it seem that everyone who glows and doesn't wear the same corp card should be shot, but at the same time magical aptitude is rare and worrisome to the public majority. It's akin to walking around with a concealed firearm that can't be (relatively) easily disarmed, only permanently removed through extreme measures.

The Star isn't going to just gun down anyone magical, nor is any average joe on the street, and again, unless the magical person is actively *trying* to show off as magical, they're not likely to have any clue at all. Just another wageslave who happens to be a wagemage. Should trouble come down though and they're involved, the response will be much more... not deadly per se, but immediate and conclusive. The criminal with a gun or cyber get knocked out, cuffed, and cuffed again with some that'll shock him if he tries any internal weaponry. The criminal mage gets knocked out, cuffed, cuffed again with something that'll shock him if he tries to go astral, then gets a bag over his head that includes a hose down his windpipe to keep him from seeing and speaking.

Given most day-to-day mages likely have good corp/government jobs and are unlikley to get into any trouble themselves, it's not a big deal. High-Force spirits from the Star or local corpsec aren't going to be following you 24/7 to make sure you're legit, you can live in relative peace. It's just that when magical nastiness does occur, and you're a suspect or obviously involved, security won't look at you like you're just another drunk in a barfight. You're a serious potential threat.

Just please note the word potential. If the mage complies, it's my feeling from canon that they'd have very little draconian enforcement pushed on them. If they resist and look to be trying something funny, they may be overcasting to summon a Force 10 spirit of anything. If taking a shot at that point means I play sociopaths, it's safer than being sane. : )

S'far as not everyone with a spell on them being a magician, that's also true, but they might not *know* that Bob the Potentially Lucky asked his buddy to sustain a charisma-boost on him. And really, how many mages would willingly use their concentration, sacrifice a spirit task, or spend a bunch of energy (and karma) on quickening a spell on someone else? Remember, even the Permanent beautific spells technically are instant; no sustaining, no long-lingering aura, they just don't immediately revert to their previous condition, similar to healing.

1) What kind of shadowrun are you people playing??? Do you play runners who dress like boring suits or who only walk around the barrens? Gah! SR4 has rot your minds!

2) My point isn't that this is appropriate for all cases. My last post was specifically aimed at HappyDaze, to indicate that such a situation can come up without that individual being considered inappropriate for society. It is COMPLETELY believable in Shadowrun that a mage gets shot on sight by a guard, without that guard being considered sociopathic. That's just part of the setting. The original question lacks context (and so does HappyDaze's continued comments on it). Context is the #1 way you'll decide whether to shoot or not to shoot.


I will give you, if you have a guy who looks completely normal and has a force 3 or lower spell cast on him, he shouldn't have any direct legal trouble, although he may face discrimination if a mundane figured him out. A mage with a force 4+ spell is asking for trouble, in the same way that if I walked around hauling an assault rifle in public, even if I had a license, cops would be on me like white on rice, unless I had a clear reason for having it (like a shirt that says SWAT or something).




Source?

All magical effects noticeable to a Mundane are Powerful. The Mundane will not know the magical effect.

Big guns noticeable to a people are Powerful. The people will not know if Big Gun is Loaded.

React to your taste.

My characters who don't want to be harassed by the cops (most of them) dress like everyone else. The character who doesn't give a shit is the one riding a bike and wearing colors. But even he has a suit and will wear it when doing things like meeting a Johnson in a private hotel suite.

New Seattle in 3rd edition and Runner Havens in 4th. The Seattle metroplex officially has a population of between 3.5 to 4 million, but it's estimated 500,000-750,000 SINless also live there. This is also borne out by looking at population number projections for Redmond and Puyallup vs. total metroplex population.

i am so on your side in this O.o