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Kerenshara
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ May 26 2009, 10:27 PM) *
I notice a sniper didn't get them either. Just saying.

*Laughing*
Well, that depends on who you believe about where our troops are and are NOT going. I was assuming they didn't have permission to go where they think he is... but the drones are routinely watching there if the occasional Hellfire stike is any indication.

QUOTE
Wait what? Future drones are really small and can be painted in super effective camo. Why do snipers have some sort of ninja ability to evade detection and stealth drones don't?

Also, what point defense actually in the books are you going to shoot at drones with?

Ok, let me outline my assumptions: I was assuming the drone would carry a meaningful payload AND have extended tactical range (endurance) to make loitering for a target possible. We also need excellent sensors. Even the best of stealth can be counteracted in some fashion. The B-2A Spirit stealth bomber is actually (weakly) visible on very low band search radars, but what is crucial is that it is the next best thing to trully invisible to the radars used to localaize, track and engage (three separate bands until very recently) an airborne target. Visual stealth on a flying target is very dificult because of shadowing and the relatively large number of viewing angles in comparison to lighting angles (in other words: shadows in things like the inlets for the engines/fan blades/whatever). Infared is probably largely tamable if you don't want weapons engaging a warm updraft. I figured a payload of at least a small guided rocket, because hitting a moving target from an airborne platform, gyro or no, is a nightmare with a bullet. A high RoF machine gun would work too, but the rocket would offer more stand-off. All that adds up to size - not the little mini, micro and small drones we 'runners are familiar with. I am talking something... call it a wingspan of 15 to 20 feet. I assume it has an airfoil because of my "loiter" requirement. And another problem with "stealth" - it's maximally effective from the front. No plane can be stealthy equally from all angles. And a loitering drone has to turn its back on you some time. All of that adds up to an increased likelyhood of detection.
As to point defense (this is why I wanted stand-off range - a heavy pistol packing drone will be in trouble as it closes on final), there are plenty of game mechanics ways you could rig something up to automatically engage anything coming in on an attack profile. The advantage of a high speed missile is that it minimizes engagement time, and allows follow-up on a miss, or a saturation attack with multiple rounds to swamp the point defense. Keep in mind, with the low prices on electronics, every drug lord and two-bit warlord will have something set up to cover his lair. An example would be to mount an HVAR to a radar/ultrasound/thermal/optical sensor and a traverse mechanism. Instant Phalanx on the cheap.
And as to sniper "ninja-ness", fast movement may make it difficult to hit a target, but it makes them very easy to spot in the first place. Slowly moving into an optimal position selected by trained eye and intuition while covered by advanced thermal blanketing and locally derived camoflage will defeat most ground-level detection systems, unless you want an alarm every time a squirel chases a nut.
Sure, I'm painting with a very broad brush, but there are times to have a human in the loop directly. Not to mention the drone's reliance on radio (which is detectable) for communications when requesting confirmation of its target. Or did you plan to have it shoot everything that might be the primary target? The sniper has more time to decide than the circling drone with the ever-changing angles to target. There are plenty of other targets that drones would handle, easy. But the question was "why would you need snipers?"
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Falconer @ May 27 2009, 12:11 AM) *
I really don't know what else there is to say... I've tried to make my case, I don't think I've convinced you. And I'm not wholly convinced that the military is nothing except runner grade professionals as some seem to think.

I am working off some old material, and haven't had a chance to update a lot of it. Makes EX seem pretty overpriced and dangerous...
You have clearly stated your convictions, and the arguments are well reasoned. Where I think we differ is out take on the universe itself. You seem to believe that somebody in a position of power cares about the SiNless and sees a way to gain significant benefit from getting them registered and utilized. I see the world being darker and more jaded than that; They aren't collecting a wellfare check, provide some money to the system as a whole (sales tax applies even to the SiNless), and tend to stay in their own areas of the 'plexes, so the corps and givernments could care less. Hell, they're easy to exploit since they have no rights before the law. I just don't see any factor outweighing all that enough to provide an incentive to lift them up in any large numbers. Like I said, your idea of a SiN for service has merrit: it's good PR and it's also a very useful and effective safety valve for pressure from below; Even if they choose not to try, there was an out. And so long as the induction testing is severe enough (not exclusive, mind, just "are you as smart, educated and fit as our least SiN recruit?) it would provide fresh blood and meet the stated objectives without watering down the pool of personnel too much. Be mindful, you're shooting pretty low in your definition of "runner grade" based on the thread thus far. Prime runners have primary skills at 5 and 6, secondaries at 4+, and are loaded in ways my to make my hypothesized "networked & enhanced" low-end SF trooper look like a poser. By definition under descriptions of firearms skill in the BBB, a newly minted rifleman is skill 3. A starting Sammie is a 4 if they're mainly gun-toting. So I was assuming lower numbers than maybe came across. But ANY kind of advanced branch (I see Airborne getting stupid huge as a percentage by 2080) would probably push that back up to a 4, like a starting 'runner. And even "National Guard" units would have that newly minted template as a meter stick; They would take a long time to get much higher though. And the last perception diference is that I don't think you Grok just how uneducated most of the SiNless really are according to the fluff (compared even to today's abysmal public education results). We aren't talking functionally illiterate: we're talking iconographically literate ONLY. And that doesn't cover basic math since your 'link does the hard work for you, or science because that stuff isn't important, right? The gulf between the SiNless and those born within the system is vast and deep. On most of the technicalities, there isn't TOO much fundamental disagreement. It's mostly a matter of perception.
QUOTE
Everyone:
I also don't see combat drugs getting used that much except under duress. Check the grunts out once under it under training to see how they react to it (familiarize them with it like they do CS gas)... then only dose them when they're in a pitched battle. (I see a grunt getting maybe some cram(+1rea, +1IP), or maybe some long haul (stay awake for 4 days). The reason being... how many combats do you expect your basic level grunt to survive. If they can survive the first say 5... they're a good candidate for a cyber upgrade as a blooded veteran combatant. An extra IP in a combat situation is a HUGE advantage and well worth the 20Y or so a dose, especially if carefully administered by a biomonitor. If you don't expect them to survive their first say 10 battles.. is it really worth the 10k for cyber as opposed to the 200Y for drugs?

OK, now HERE you're starting to approach this from a workable angle. Your comment about five survived firefights reminds me of a Sci-fi novel but - Armor? where the curve said after five battles you were more survivable but after ten the odds started to catch up with you? Anyway, you want to do everything you can to survive the first battle: remember that basic training exclusive of re/up-training a SiNless uplift is over 100,000¥, and that's lost money too if they die. Now, for your National Guard-esque troops, the ones out of PCA, this might make more sense... but not for stand up military or first line service. That's a lot further than I figured I was going to be willing to bend, but as you presented it HERE and in the case I covered, sure, it could be a useful force multiplier.

QUOTE
Here's primary roles I see for drones.
Pack Mule: Somethings got to hump the extra ammo and supplies
Supply Mule: Great way to distribute airdrop supplies to units in the field. (Kull aerial supply drone)
Heavy Weapons platform: Why use a team to pack the crew served weapon when you can stuff it on a single drone.
Indirect Support: extention of heavy weapons... instead of a crew served mortar, a self-propelled mortar which can fire and scoot to a new position to avoid counterbattery.
Secure Comms: It's prohibitive to put it everywhere, but it's usefull to have something w/ a sat link, and act as a local comms relay
Medical: Valkyrie Module to stuff your wounded into, if you care that much about them.

In a heavy EW environment, a lot of those drones are probably going to be on laser link, or even have fiber run to them.

Your observation about NoE flight applies to laser communications too, omae. And lasers back-scatter (basis of laser guidance) so they aren't entirely un-detectable. And they're entirely LoS limited. Fiber is nice for short range work, but that short and you can probably burn through the jamming (The EW rules for jamming are a joke, even compared to some of the other over-simplified stuff) anyway.
I liked your summary of roles, it's obviously not inclusive, but it IS indicative of where the Army is already looking in 2009 towards the future. I see lots of mini/micro drones used for house-to-house recon on a squad level as well, plus the existing heavy dose of long-duration general recon. The satcom relay is kind of redundant though: The Iridium sat-phone was small enough to include in a basic soldier's kit in 2005. Jump 65 years foward and high speed uplinks wouldn't be an issue. It wouldn't fit (probably, and certainly per RAW) inside a wrist-sized or clothing-embedded comlink, which is why it's an extra, but it's not a dish with serious orientation problems. Much more likely to be a stealthy short-ranged mesh relay point to help ensure communications in a heavy EW environment without having to wait for the (significant, in tactical combat) delay to bounce off a satellite. But I agree for the most part.
psychophipps
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ May 26 2009, 05:08 PM) *
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Which is another argument for the kind of networked and enhanced light troops for strikes and PCA over conventional armor. Face it: even at 45 mph / 72 kph an Abrams target isn't that hard a target in the open, can't dodge and has a heck of a time ducking for cover. A suit of PCA can protect against all known small arms while allowing it to avoid heavier return fire generally. In fact they're tough enough to MOUNT a lot of that wicked firepower, and it's very easy to fully network them. But then it will come back to education and training.


Not a fan of PCA, for reasons covered in another thread, but the US Army is definitely heading in a "lighter is better" direction if the FCS model is any indicator of their current thinking. As for the networking bit, you can currently network any and all current US military vehicles/infantry in a manner that dramatically increases situational awareness and tactical cohesion to a level unheard of at any time in history. The main issue, as I have read and it might be incorrect, is that the US Army started cranking out the gear before they had the network locked down which is causing a lot of compatibility issues and limiting the equipment's ability to get the full potential of the communications web.

I agree that education and training are the key. The issue with uneducated and/or minimally trained troops is that in the face of situations outside of their current direct orders, they will often do nothing.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (psychophipps @ May 27 2009, 12:58 AM) *
Not a fan of PCA, for reasons covered in another thread, but the US Army is definitely heading in a "lighter is better" direction if the FCS model is any indicator of their current thinking.

I want to be clear: by PCA (Powered Combat Armor) I'm not talking about the heavy-ass suits of anime and manga lore. I am referring to the heavier military-grade suits of full body armor (Arsenal) with the AGI and STR boosts as options, sporting "hardened" armor (no damage unless DV exceeds armor absolute, IOW no stun) plates. That's enough to let troopers execute very fast movement, agile as all get out, and keeps the encumbrance of the suits from being a serious issue. They are still leg infantry able to take advantage of reasonable sized transport and man-scale cover; Even air-drop. And they AREN'T the be-all end-all, I just see them getting a lot more play since MBTs are becoming ever more vulnerable and hard to airlift/deploy quickly.
Cthulhudreams
Drones are better at both mission profiles you've just called out for snipers: Drones are pretty damn hard to shoot down as they are hard to see, but more importantly they can actually land, and then just wait. Or wait in a tree and drop on your head. Or fly in massive attack style, relying on small size and cheaper than missle status to actually make them quite hard to shoot down.

incidentally, PCA and profliration of batteries means you need vehicles - not just for transport, but because you can also use the engine as a generator.
Chrysalis
I have currently corked a beer as the stuff seems to get bigger and bigger that I have (I am moving, I mean I can survive with a bergen and the rest is just extra).

This is also a segway to another topic which stuff. My own professional opinion with any of the drones and such is that they are all very nice, but until they come up with a vehicle, which:

  1. Has a reliable service time without breaking down
  2. Does not create a large signature (heat, electronic) for enemy observers
  3. Can go up 60 degree inclines, scale cliff faces, and is not bogged down in mud.
  4. Can work in usual infantry weather (which is -40 deg. C to +60 deg. C), not to mention being salt-water proof and tested at 10 meters depth in water.
  5. Does not involve soldiers to carry more stuff now since "logically" the drone is carrying the rest.



It would be nice if it would operate in a support role with weapons, but that is not important. See point 5.


Drones are dumb. They do not think. They cannot distinguish friend or foe without IFF verification. They do not understand the difference between a wedding party firing into the air and AA fire. Drones do not understand the difference between teens with ruck sacks going into a school and terrorists. They do not understand the difference between the local VIP undergoing defensive driving and terrorists.

Combat is a fluid concept. This is not Somme in 1916. It is certainly not the Korean War either.

Let me give you an example: You are walking down the streets in Belfast, it is a Sunday afternoon. Mass has just finished and people are coming back from church. You have been doing a morning patrol of the area and you are getting back to your local station for lunch and a bit of posting on ARRSE. There is a god awful explosion which has enough force to set off all the car alarms in your area and smash windows. If you have been smart you have grabbed some real estate at this point.

You run to the end of the road. The corner church and the church goers who were outside are now a bloody mess, a quick look at the area you count over 20 civvies injured, there are another 20 standing around.

As your squad secures the area, a squaddie comes across another car bomb this one has partially exploded. He counts that there are 6 155mm shells in the fire.

View and answer the questions in the following order:

Question 1.
[ Spoiler ]


Question 2.
[ Spoiler ]


Question 3.
[ Spoiler ]


Question 4.
[ Spoiler ]
Cthulhudreams
Dude, your first mistake is that you are assuming force tailoring just doesn't exist. Drone forces occupy the same role as mechanised infantry.

But anyway you are setting up the drone augemented force to fail, because you are making completely unreasonable assumptions, and also incorrectly presuming the operating methods of a drone force. For example, you have completely ignored drone capability in prevention by significantly superior on sight capability. Renraku blimps have a loiter time of weeks!

QUOTE
Drones are dumb. They do not think. They cannot distinguish friend or foe without IFF verification. They do not understand the difference between a wedding party firing into the air and AA fire. Drones do not understand the difference between teens with ruck sacks going into a school and terrorists. They do not understand the difference between the local VIP undergoing defensive driving and terrorists.


This is wrong - they can distinguish between friend and foe without IFF verification, and can implement rules of engagement, otherwise it would be not possible to use them in security roles unless you where extraterritorial - which not everyone is. If you just open shooting to kill you have committed several crimes - using disproportionate force for starters.

QUOTE
1. Has a reliable service time without breaking down
2. Does not create a large signature (heat, electronic) for enemy observers
3. Can go up 60 degree inclines, scale cliff faces, and is not bogged down in mud.
4. Can work in usual infantry weather (which is -40 deg. C to +60 deg. C), not to mention being salt-water proof and tested at 10 meters depth in water.
5. Does not involve soldiers to carry more stuff now since "logically" the drone is carrying the rest.


1) Well, as the drones are clearly used in security work - where the main criteria are long servicing intervals and low service costs to keep down overheads (which eat into profit), drones clearly can do that.

2) Every security unit in SR is equipped with radar that can pick up people and drones with equal capacity, so man sized drones are the same nature of profile as a man sized person. Heat sigs are equivelent too for spotting in SR, so they have that problem under control

3) I suspect the military issue version of the steel lynx would be tracked, and thus can probably climb 60 degree inclines- but more important drones can fly. This is super huge capability infantry guys just don't have.

4) Well, no limitations one drone endurance are stated except for the water one - infact as drones suffer no discomfort they would be better off in low or high tempreture situations. (Clearly lubricants and fluids in SR have benefited from another 80 years of material science, you can definately make improved greases with the manufacturing technology demonstrated in SR that we don;t have).

5) Soldiers certainly won't be carrying any less stuff!


Anyway for how I'd deal with the situation:

Your problem has 4 dimensions

A) Patrolling & Interdictions

B) Medical response

C) Bomb disposal

D) Capability to deal with unexpected events.

So lets address the problem by dimensions

patrolling

I'd never get there - Surveillance UAV drones with chemical sniffers and pattern matching software carpeting the city would have already identified and traced the terrorists, as I would have banned the possession of explosives and firearms. If I had confirmed that any person was carrying munitions, they would have been interdicted by high endurance drone platforms with lethal force, preferably engaged with a sniper rifle from a drone platform. Given the 24/7 survillence coverage I can impose with no force exposure, it would be almost impossible for the terrorists to obtain these sort of weapons. Chem sniffers in SR4 have unbelivable levels of capability compared to modern platforms. As all civilians are required to produce an ID - and I'd be relying it all back to a rating 6 SIN scanner, you'd be hard pressed to evade the orwellian big brother eye.

That sort of measure is pretty cheap, highly effective and almost impossible to deal with as a terrorist. Police states have low crime for a reason, and it is relatively easy to impose that level of coverage. It also posses an easy answer to question 4.

I would also not bother running street patrols.

medical response Instead, I would respond to incidents using multiple rapid response forces. In a civilian situation, I would have emergency response teams on stand by with medical drones in the racks. For the same price as 1 doctor on duty, 1 nurse on duty and a paramedic on duty 24/7 withan ambulance, I can run more than 30medical drones with the capability to conduct full surgical interventions, and support them with multiple ambulances built on the doc wagon platform, including a defensive capability from the doc wagon platform. I'd fit a mix of gel bullets, tasers and tranq darts, and potentially allocate a security drone per ambulance equipped with relevant pacification devices. Tasering someone wounded is non-ideal, so i'd probably go a tranq gun so I can give them tranqulisers - which might be medically required anyway!

Given that a conventional force would need multiple ambulances to extra these guys in multiple trips, the drone force could extract all civilians These guys could easily evac the entire wounded civilian population, including everyone standing around and commence treatment before a non drone augmeneted force could possibly deal with them. As I would be evacuating to a hospital, I could benefit from economies of scale and leverage the small cadre of doctors for situations the drones are unable to handle (which is unlikely, as they make surgical tests with only a few less dice than a doctor, given that they can apply more manpower to the situation). Also remember drone medical evacs are a fact of life in 2070, so being ushered into an ambulance by a drone isn;t going to provoke an extreme response, unless they wouldn't want to go in under any circumstances. In which case I'd evac everyone else and dispatch on site guys to do it.

Bomb disposal and human response

Now, as I don't advocate an all drone response, I'd also dispatch a single infantry platoon (Which is only ten guys, 3 x 3 man squads + a commander + drones up the wazoo) to the site. In my previous discussions on the subject, I priced out drone mech inf battalions at roughly the same price as a conventional mech inf company by cutting squad sizes drastically (3 men, including a driver) and relying on heavy drone augmentation to produce significantly superior firepower (replacing all company and battalion attachments) as well as providing 24/7 UAV coverage. Now, these guys in an IFV or helicopter would be first responders - but as we have multiple 'eye in the sky' flying to the crash site, the unexploded car bomb would be found by drones with chem sniffers. The drones would identify all SINs in the area immediately and virtual human operators would contact, simultaneously, everyone in the expected blast area and provide them with the quickest route to safety. As 2/3s of the population is noted to use neural interfaces, I could reasonably assume that the majority of humans would start evacuating immediately, and that drone loud speakers and herd behaviour would get the majority of the rest.

While the first response team is on route, bomb disposal experts on call in a 'rolling call centre' enabling virtual telepresence globally, reducing my overhead costs, would assess the on site drones telemetry and conduct a risk assessment of the bomb. If it was deemed too dangerous, only virtual and drone contact would be permitted to minimise risk to my forces - but if it was deemed 'okay' the bomb disposal experts would stand by to jack into drones assigned for the task to the first responder unit. This would enable me to deliver relevant expertise directly to the hot zone without exposing any personnel. If the situation is dangerous I keep my humans at stand off, but if its OK I send them in to deal with any reluctant leavers or trouble makers.

Interdicition

While this is happening, I'd have my on site humans trying to get recalitrants and trouble makers under control. I'd be less fussed about securing the physical evidence that you might think. My big brother drones tracked everyone and everything that was in the area for the last month - and the car - so my data mining and assault forces are already going to be responding to arrest anyone who has been near the car recently, or sending a team to the set of location of the car straight away.

The trade off is I have less capability to respond to multiple simultaneous events - but I'm betting that my patrolling capability would make that sort of planning almost impossible.

Overall this response has

A) I'm not on site. Conventional humans lucky enough to be in the area will respond a bit faster. Unless they got killed in the blast of course.

B) I have physically less men to deal with issues. IF there was 30 car bombings across the city in one go, I'd be screwed, but that is almost impossible to deliver

C) I can get forced into a dilemma where I have to deal with trouble makers OR try and get a mother and her kids to leave - and I cannot just (for some reason) taser the trouble makers.

In return I get

A) A much faster and comprehensive medical solution to the wounded

B) Relevant bomb disposal expertise delivered to the site almost instantly, at no exposure to my personnel. Equipment takes time to get there, but the response can be planned prior to that

C) No exposure to my infantry assets patrolling

D) Much better patrol coverage and interceptions as a result

Overall the fact I provide a better response in 3 of the 4 dimensions and reduce my force exposure in terms of people (the most expensive bit!) in return for reduced capability to deal with some edge cases, its not a bad deal.
psychophipps
Another thing to keep in mind is that you won't really need a rigger or rigger training to use SR drones. You connect to the drone via AR, lock it onto something you want the ass tore out of via tacnet, and let the autosoft take care of the rest. This frees up your infantry to gather intel from the aerial drone(s) as they maneuver to flank the target(s) that the drone(s) are engaging from cover. If the target is a big nasty, just have either an aerial drone or a ground drone lock a laser designation on it (with GPS backup) and sit behind the hard stuff waiting for the big bang before you head in to mop up.
Making good use of the autosofts also cuts down on the chances of getting hacked. Set your drones to take commands only from specific prompts via your custom OS, and watch everyone not insanely tech savvy scramble around wasting their resources on getting at your drones. Set them up for LOS comms instead of AR/Matrix signals and it'll work even better. Just slave a laser com unit to your helmet visual view and you're good to go as long as you can see the drone.

I can easily imagine a light infantry brick working with a pair of medium ground drones for firepower and a similar pair of flying drones for recon. Give them some decent customized non-powered infantry armor, a good sensor suite and tac net, smartguns including smart grenade launchers with a pair of SAWs, and let them take care o' biz. Just the thing to give your 'runners a heart attack if you play them smart and ruthless.
Rusted Scrap Metal
Do you REALLY think that after the Second Matrix Crash and all the otaku and technomancers around, that ANY military is going to rely solely on armed drones?

That's ignoring operational and "real world" considerations for the shiny hardware of drones.

A drone is susceptable to ECM measures (we're talking sophisticated multi-phase arrays, not some crap carried around in a street sam's pocket), where the human brain isn't.

Oh, and APDS is IN GAME and not IRL?

In 1988 my squad replaced an entire Forward Storage and Transportation Site worth the ammunition.

30mm chain gun for the Apache Helicopter:

30mm APDS (tungsten) and APDSDU (that's depleted uranium for the cheap seats) not to mention APDSFS (that's fin stabalized)
120mm APDSFSDU (Armor piercing discarding sabot fin stabalized depleted uranium) for M1A1 Tanks.

In Desert Storm, hundreds of thousands of these rounds were used.

During Force XXI we tested the feasibility of APDS 5.56mm rounds, they were found to be only marginally effective and more likely to cause minimum trauma through and through wounds, although the .50 caliber M2 GPHMG was put on the list to receive the rounds.

APDS rounds have been around since the 1980's.

They are real, they have been used on the battlefield.
Rusted Scrap Metal
Additionally, a lot of you are missing the point of large militaries.

A military is not only designed around the lightning operations, but with the long haul. And militaries are expected to function even when everything is not in place. When supply lines are compromised at best, non-existent at worst. Drones are designed to used, and thus lost. They require generators and massive amounts of support. Seriously, even a dozen drones would require almost the same support as an advanced fighter/bomber with VTOL capability. The rate for part failure would be high, and most drones would spend more time in the repair bay than on mission, providing they didn't suffer from kills.

Drones would be seen as a force multiplier, not the force itself.
Falconer
QUOTE (Rusted Scrap Metal @ May 27 2009, 07:21 PM) *
Oh, and APDS is IN GAME and not IRL?

NO... 'and APDS *AS* IN GAME and not IRL.

*sigh* for once and for all... I'm quite familiar w/ ammo loads and types in the present day.

The comment was NOT that AP loads don't exist today. The comment was aimed at the comment about how IRL they trade damage for armor penetration while in SR they get it all. I didn't want to segue off topic into IRL vs Shadowrun, the comment was solely to be interpretted in that way. I still don't care to get off topic into how they are today and how SR doesn't model todays rounds.
Rusted Scrap Metal
QUOTE (Falconer @ May 27 2009, 03:59 PM) *
NO... 'and APDS *AS* IN GAME and not IRL.

*sigh* for once and for all... I'm quite familiar w/ ammo loads and types in the present day.

The comment was NOT that AP loads don't exist today. The comment was aimed at the comment about how IRL they trade damage for armor penetration while in SR they get it all. I didn't want to segue off topic into IRL vs Shadowrun, the comment was solely to be interpretted in that way. I still don't care to get off topic into how they are today and how SR doesn't model todays rounds.

Gotcha.
Bob Lord of Evil
Elements of this post are going to agree with a number of other posts in this thread. As always...this is only my opinion.

Countries’ preparing a defense is profitable for the corps. Wars on the other hand, disrupt supply routes, result in destruction of vital infrastructure, and corporate collateral damage (real estate, personnel, data loss) as such these things are not profitable for the corps. Given that so many of these corps are not limited to operating in a single country, they have no 'national' horse in the battle.

Cost effectiveness is the watch word for the 2080 Sixth World. Massive armies are a thing of the past.

Small infantry units (6-8 soldiers) complemented by the presence of two fire support drones, with MMG's and 20mm smart grenade launchers. These units will have a light-weight air deployable cargo drone that will be able to carry suppliers and gear for the unit. This drone will extend the time that they can be operational without resupply and probably have excavation capabilities (i.e. digging trenches, foxholes, bunkers). Small recon drones will be on point (thankfully) during patrols.

Indirect fire support (i.e. artillery) will be 60 miles away and able to put a 150mm round in a circle 0.5 meters in diameter. Said indirect fire will pop off 80 rounds (battery of four) and on the move within 40 seconds. There won't be thousands of artillery pieces raining down massive barrages. Company sized units will be providing artillery support for battalion sized infantry units (and doing it in a precise and timely manner).

Area denial weapons (i.e. mines) will be deployed remotely but will have friend or foe id capability. Their advanced sensors and top down engagement configuration will allow them to engage anything from panzers to heavy infantry in power suits. Four base units (each with 4 launchers and a magazine of 6 mines) will be able to cover an area of one square mile. Once the battle have moved beyond that area the mines will be remotely recovered and repositioned to the next area needed.

Air assets are going to be predominantly drones that are capable of standoff engagements with incredible loiter times. Hardened targets will require penetrator munitions that will have to be delivered via stealth aircraft but still will be released up to 30 miles away. FAE weapons (although deplored) will be used when you just have to send a heavy handed message. Nukes will (thankfully) continue to gather dust and be the boogeyman of the modern battlefield. Chemical weapons will be used with disturbing frequency in third world regions but nobody is going to be claiming responsibility for their employment. Biological weapons will not be used because of the fear that once released there is no reliable way to recall them or limit the scope of their damage (not to mention the fear that mutations might occur rendering cures ineffective).

Again, just my two cents.
Bob Lord of Evil
Oh, and I should added that I think Powered Armor is going to be employed a lot. Not the big manga/giant robot stuff, man-sized units. Put a soldier inside a powered armor suit, you have better protection than the best dermal plating, more strength than muscle augmentation can offer, add an onboard computer, sensor suite, enhanced vision modes, hear mods, chamelion paint and I see NO reason why the government would cyber up a soldier. An opinion which no doubt will draw a LOT of ire from players who liked to use that as the reason why their characters had cyberware. Sorry, not gunning for ya just seems how things would be (in my flawed and ever so human opinion). grinbig.gif

If you extrapolate that new carbon nano tube aerogel (IRL) that can be used as muscle, non-hydraulic based power armor is going to be viable. IRL material engineering advancements keep blowing my socks off!!! Sorry, I just couldn't resist that one.
Cthulhudreams
The really silly thing is everyone who thinks that drones are a solution for every problem the military has, and says people are instead required blah blah blah and then use what is effectively front line light infantry as an example. Man, footsoldiers are a totally trivial component of a modern military.

Let us just examine artillery. Consider the force elements in a military just of artillery unit!

Artillery exists at the battalion, regiment, brigade, division corps, army and front level level, and has different capability and missions at each level. Please point out to me precisely where anyone is required in the actual delivery of shells on target. Firesupport will need to be allocated by humans at tactical command, but actual mission furfillment is best done by drones. They don't make mistakes.

What about armour? Do you really want to keep crews of 4, when you could just get 1 rigger and a maint. drone or 2? Why the hell do you want a seperate commander, gunner and driver?

What about ground support crews for helicopter based military aviation? Do you really need a person to man the fuelling hose? If you think that - why? What about munitions handling? Armoury work?
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Bob Lord of Evil @ May 27 2009, 09:41 PM) *
Oh, and I should added that I think Powered Armor is going to be employed a lot. Not the big manga/giant robot stuff, man-sized units. Put a soldier inside a powered armor suit, you have better protection than the best dermal plating, more strength than muscle augmentation can offer, add an onboard computer, sensor suite, enhanced vision modes, hear mods, chamelion paint and I see NO reason why the government would cyber up a soldier. An opinion which no doubt will draw a LOT of ire from players who liked to use that as the reason why their characters had cyberware. Sorry, not gunning for ya just seems how things would be (in my flawed and ever so human opinion). grinbig.gif

If you extrapolate that new carbon nano tube aerogel (IRL) that can be used as muscle, non-hydraulic based power armor is going to be viable. IRL material engineering advancements keep blowing my socks off!!! Sorry, I just couldn't resist that one.


The only thing the power armor can't replicate is the reflex boosting of 'ware.
Critias
I'm not sure what SR4 book (if any) powered armor is in...but is the reflex enhancement issue something that could be fixed with a Vehicle Control Rig? Plug into the armor, kick a ton of ass, and do so for way less essence-cost than the individual enhancements would be (dermal plating, muscle enhancements, etc), all set up so that all you take home with you when you muster out is a VCR and a datajack, with the armor staying in the service to keep kickin' ass with a new recruit inside?
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Critias @ May 28 2009, 12:39 AM) *
I'm not sure what SR4 book (if any) powered armor is in...but is the reflex enhancement issue something that could be fixed with a Vehicle Control Rig? Plug into the armor, kick a ton of ass, and do so for way less essence-cost than the individual enhancements would be (dermal plating, muscle enhancements, etc), all set up so that all you take home with you when you muster out is a VCR and a datajack, with the armor staying in the service to keep kickin' ass with a new recruit inside?


At this point it's not a suit of power armor, but more like an armored walker like a Heavy Gear or a Tau Crisis Suit.
Jaid
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ May 28 2009, 02:06 AM) *
At this point it's not a suit of power armor, but more like an armored walker like a Heavy Gear or a Tau Crisis Suit.

and is crazy easy to make into awesome.

base vehicle is a daihatsu-caterpillar horseman PMV, with advanced cargo module. it starts off with enough room for a single person, the advanced cargo module has a reasonable amount of storage (less than the amount of room in a large car trunk... specific amount unknown). it starts off with one or two mechanical arms, costs 17,000, and has a body of 6 (room for 6 mod slots). it has a respectable handling of +1, and a reasonable speed (10/20 accel, max 75)

normal armor 12 (1 slot, 2,400 nuyen.gif )
walker mode (2 slots, 3,000 nuyen.gif )
rigger adaptation (1 slot, 2,500 nuyen.gif )

this leaves 2 mod slots before overmodding, which i expect will be used for all kinds of different purposes. heck, even the armor mod might not be on all models (probably not needed for riot control, i suppose).

mods i consider likely to be popular include smart armor, body stabiliser, chameleon coating, engine customisation, extreme environment adaptation, improved economy (very popular i'm sure), flying fox gliding system (paratroopers), gecko tips, gyro link (for models with turrets), life support, lock-on countermeasures, rigger coccoon, satellite link, signature masking, special machinery (for all sorts of various jobs), suncell, and weapon mount. also improved matrix attributes, but i don't consider those to be real mods...

in all probability, if militaries use something like this, their version starts off a little more awesome ( a little faster, already a walker, already has rigger adaptation and armor, and being a military vehicle has device rating 5 instead of 3 for normal vehicle).

overall, the base model costs less than 30k nuyen.gif and can allow you to easily give your troops 2 IPs or 3 IPs, and allows access to some really impressive dice pool modifiers (+2 dice from hotsim, +2 dice from control rig). and not only is a control rig cheaper than even the cheapest wired reflexes (in both money and essence, allowing for easier healing as well), but it doesn't make you particularly more dangerous most of the time. meaning i can take a group of poorly trained recruits (skill level 2) and put them in the cheapest model vehicles (device rating 3) and they'll have a dice pools comparable to veteran troops (skill level 4) with fairly solid attributes (specifically, attributes at 5). they don't suffer from armor encumbrance, and don't need to be particularly fit (although making your soldiers fit isn't that expensive i imagine, so i'm sure they wouldn't be complete couch potatoes... but probably not straight 5s either).

naturally, if you take skilled troops (say, gunnery 3/ballistic +2) and give them upgraded response (ie 5 for a military vehicle) you'll have a very significant improvement in overall awesome as well. they'll be equivalent to a street sam with 5(automatics +2) and 5(7) agility and response (and 3 IPs, 1 of which must be used for controlling the vehicle admittedly). that's pretty good, in my books. throw in a control rig booster and some veteran troops, and you can get 4(6) (ballistic +2) pretty easily for skills, and with various methods you can get effective response higher too...

that being said, many shadowrun fans seem to really dislike the crazy robotic vehicle scheme, so i doubt this sort of thing will ever make it into canon no matter how much sense it makes =P (or, if it does, it'll be as something experimental and obscenely expensive most likely)
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