Plus, I think whatever they had in mind at the end of AIT would definitely fulfill the criteria for an ordeal.

You folks are thinking about this all wrong.

The military has, by definition, the single best grade A bang-bang on the planet. Why bother with a mage, when they are such a rare comodity anyhow? Use them for the special things:

Chaff - to confuse enemy sensors
Vehicle Mask - to mask origins
Diagnose - the ultimate medic if they're any good
Pulse - knock out comms at a strategically useful moment for just a second or two
Catalog - during Intel sweeps
Detect Enemies and Combat Sense - avoid ambush
Detect Life Form - Combat SAR
Enhance Aim - as a spotter for a sniper or team marksman
Mindnet - totally secure battle chatter
Spatial Sense - get an instant feel for a building on entry
Clairaudience - like a drone, but better
Hibernate - to stabilize a critically wounded soldier for transport
Stabilize - short term stabilization
Sound Barrier - silence a last minute conference or the treads of a tank
Clean Air - detox after chemical attack
Fix - rapid minor field repairs
Magic Fingers - Oh, come on, you CAN'T think of 1,000,001 uses?
Physical Barrier - see Magic Fingers
Reinforce - self explanitory
Sterilize - clean up after a hit-and-run raid

Lots of banishing and counterspelling - this is your defenses.

Mages in the military wouldn't be about boom, they are force multipliers. And if you shoe-horn in cerebral boosters and encephalons these guys are your strategists and analysts too.

Mages can actually predict the future. That is way better than pretty much anything else they can do from a military perspective.

Your post is full of awesomeness. Thank you for explaining everything in terms of Shadowrun. +100 Points for mentioning Sprawl Sites and +1000 points for mentioning an Archetype within.

BlueMax

OK, let's do a little ground work...

We'll use a NAN state... out of... random grab... NAN-1. We'll use Ute for our example.

Now, the Ute Nation came out of the NAN formation, as we all know. Now, let us consider the territory they ended up with: Nevada. Southern Utah. Those are some harsh areas.

They are also the areas full of high security bases.

We'll assume, that during the "transfer of power" a lot of the bioweapons, nuclear, and high-end facilities were destroyed by the troops leaving. Just the sensitive stuff, since blowing up the normal buildings could very well have been seen as a hostile act, and NOBODY wanted to piss off the Native Americans following the Great Ghost Dance. Besides, what the hell does anyone care if the NAN guys get a bunch of barracks, mess halls, polluted motorpools and impact ranges, and crap like that.

The old 1980/1990 depot yards would be left. (Every post had an area back then where decomissioned vehicles were kept that anyone could go scavenge parts off of) Plus, it was quick withdrawl, so...

Anyway, that puts the basic military infrastructure already prebuilt. This is a trillion dollar boost.

So, let us go from there.

Tax Base? Ute? Oh fragging yeah. High tech, involved in the "Silicon Wars", going toe to toe with other nations for the "range wars" and competing with Pueblo for computer equipment. That's a nice tax base. Plus Ute is hostile to foreign companies, so there's an even bigger tax base.

Patriotism? We're talking a NAN state, which means that the youth and the older people are well aware of what not having a strong and tough military means. Trail of Tears anyone? (Yeah, wrong tribe, but...)

Low population? Even more critical that the military be tough as nails. Additionally, arguments are made that once someone gets out, they are able for recall at any time (just like in the US) if the government needs them, so the decision to implant the troops is made.

Basic Training:

Reception: This is where they will have their intake. DNA samples taken, medical checks, allergy checks, basic testing for knowledge and another test for intelligence. It's here that those not in the physical shape or intellectual shape will be tasked for "remedial training" to either get them to read and write and do sums or "waddle, fatty! Waddle for your life! It's Fatty Season!" hell.

Phase I: Phase I is also known as the "Red Phase," or "Patriot Phase." Phase I runs from Week One to Week Three. The first thing a recruit will notice about their new drill sergeant is that he or she appears to be a different species from the ones hanging around the Reception Battalion. He/she will appear to be much larger, much meaner, and very much louder than the guys at Reception, and seem to absolutely love push-ups. "Drop and Give me Twenty" is a favorite phrase (shouted, of course). On this first day, pretty much everyone will get "dropped." Dropped individually, dropped in pairs, and dropped as an entire platoon.

Week one is best characterized by a term known as TOTAL CONTROL. Total control is were the soldiers only do what they are told to do by their Drill Sergeants. While the Army actually likes initiative and innovation, Drill Sergeants hate it (at least during the first three weeks). The first few weeks of Basic Training is definitely NOT the time to find a better way of doing things. Soldiers arrive to the Basic Training Unit from the Reception Battalion and are immediately immersed into an environment where every move they make is scrutinized by the Drill Sergeant.

During the first week, a recruit will start Physical Training, and be given an initial PT Test. This test requires a little bit more than the screening in the Reception Battalion: push-ups, sit-ups, and a two mile run. All of which must be done under a certain time, or the poor slob ends up thinking he's in excersize show hell.

Total Control continues the second week, along with courses on Army Core Values (including classes on sexual harassment and race relations), and other military-related subjects (such as the fundamentals of bayonet fighting, and first aid training). During the second week is also where the recruit is exposed to the "Gas Chamber" for chemical warfare training. It is also during this time that the recruit will be exposed to his weapon, who is now his closest friend, confident, secret lover. They eat, sleep, piss, and if they feel the risk, fuck with their weapon in one hand.

During the final week of Phase I, the Drill Sergeants will (very slowly) start to move the emphasis of training away from individual, to "team." They'll be assigned a "Battle Buddy," which they'll do everything with. They might as well be Siamese Twins. Often, friendships crop up that last for decades. (I still talked to my Battle Buddy till he was hit by a drunk driver 2 years ago, and we were in Basic together over 20 years ago) The Ute Nation, and the Native American Tradition mean that often these men and women will become "blood brothers" and if you geek one, you best geek the other, because he will find you, and he will geek you.

Phase II: This is known as the "White Phase," or "Gunfighter Phase." The recruits are trained to fire weapons and throw grenades. During the three weeks of Phase II, the recruit will spend most of their time on various ranges. They'll start with basic rifle marksmanship, and move on to farther targets, pop-up targets, grenades, grenade launchers, and more. Also during this time they will be trained in hand to hand combat, knife fighting, and "combat movement"

During the second week, they'll get practice using bayonets (stab, stab, kill, kill), and an introduction to anti-tank weapons and other heavy weapons. They'll also get practice negotiating the obstacle course. They'll run the obstacle course carrying they're new friend (Their issued rifle). Additionally, communication procedures are taught, how to call in artillery, how to perform even more first aid, how to call in for fire support, how to build a fighting position, how to destroy a fighting position, how to snipe with an iron sights rifle, and on and on and on.

Of course, during Phase II, the recruit continues daily PT, as well as practices basic drill and ceremonies, hand to hand fighting, knife fighting, and everything else.

Phase III: The first week will be skill testing, another PT test, more ranges, and more training. The Second week will involve a field training experience with a special tactical field exercise. This exercise ties everything learned in basic together. The Drill Instructors will advise, but tactical decisions will be made by the platoon leaders and squad leaders. At the end of the week long field exercise, the recruit will return to Basic Training to discover the time has come...

For implantation.

Now, the Ute Nation is on the cutting edge. They are surrounded by rivals, and they skirmish with Pueblo all the time. They also look at the fact that anyone who leaves the service will probably be standing right there in line the first day their nation is attacked. So, it's off to the hospital with our little crunchies.

Basic Implantation:

Bioware*
Grade Two Synaptic Accelerators
Symbiotes Grade I
Platelet Factory
Tracheal Filter Grade I

Cyberware
Smartlink
Cybereyes
--Flare compensation
--Lowlight
--Thermo
--Rangefinder
Cyberears
--Comlink X
--Encryption X
--Dampeners
--Select Sound Filter
Datajack
Datalink
Softlink Grade 4
Orientation System w/ inertial recorder
50 MP Memory

*assumes that the character has a 3 Body

Once that is passed, we move to Phase IV...

Phase IV: This is the toughest time for a soldier. They have to get used to all the new equipment. Thankfully, a lot of how to use it once they have it has been covered in previous classes (GPS and mapping software usage, radios, crypto, nightvision), but still, phase IV is three weeks of learning to use their equipment. The first week is just how to activate and use the basics. Second week is using it and applying it, the third week is using it despite any damage or degredation the system has taken, as well as how to fire a weapon when the smartlink is not only misaligned, but burns from feedback/damage, and won't shut off.

Then comes our Ute Soldier's graduation from basic training.

Someone better at SR4 skills and augmentations might be able to do the writeup on our untrained soldier at this point. And he is untrained.

Up next would be:

Advanced Individual Training.

I'm not going to cover each MOS That would take waaaay to much space. So I'm going to cram them into basics. Each AIT course covers the following

Phase I: Red Phase, this is, once again, Total Control. Now, the reason this is done is to keep control over a bunch of lunkheads who have been trained to kill, and now need to be trained and honed into something more than just a proto-infantryman. Additionally, it's designed to keep an eye on them while they still get used to their augmentations.

Week I: Testing. This tests the soldier's intelligence, PT status, Augmentations Skills, and starts focusing on testing the skills they will need for their MOS's. Combat arms (IE: Infantry) will see more of the same from Basic at this point. Infantry training does not go through Total Control, as they usually just seemlessly move from Basic Training to what is often called Basic Training Two.

Week II: Now the preliminary training on the paperwork side of the MOS is done. Showing the soldier what types of vehicles and/or weaponry they will be using, familiarization with the equipment of their MOS. No training in stuff that needs augmentation will take place here.

Week III: This is the last week of Total Control, and the soldier will be starting serious training into the MOS.

Phase II: White Phase. This lasts a variable amount of time, depending on the MOS (Military Occupational Specialty) in question. Infantry for our little Ute Troops lasts 12 weeks, while Combat Medic lasts only 6 weeks. The shortest is Transportation/Truck Driver, which lasts 5 weeks four days.

Phase III: Chrome Phase: This is where the soldier gets his augmentations implanted and heals up from them. The recruit is given excellent medical care and frequent medical checks during this time.

Phase IV: Blue Phase: This is where our Ute Soldiers get their training to operate with their augmentations. Blue Phase can last anywhere from 4 weeks (training to use their implants) to 30 weeks for the exact same thing (A clerk is going to need less training than a drone operator who needs less training in using their augmentations than an infantryman) and once Blue Phase is finished, our Ute recruit goes out and joins his unit. It is after AIT that our recruit goes to special schools, if needed, before arriving at the unit. Once they arrive at the unit, and put some time in to show that the investment by the Ute nation was in good choice, then the Ute soldier may apply for such things as the Ute version of Navy SEALS, Air Force Commando, Army Ranger, Army Special Forces, Marine Force Recon. (No, they are not the same with different names. Each of them has very specific roles. You don't task Rangers for a SEAL mission, and you don't task Marine Recon for Air Force Commando)

Infantry Training
This is your basic "man on the ground" who is the backbone of the military. They are responsible for closing with the enemy and destroying them, securing areas, and performing combat operations. The brushfire wars of the early and mid 21st Century showed that infantry was not a dying breed, like analysts of the early and mid 1980's suggested. With anti-armor weapons ahead of armor on the curve, an infantry anti-armor hunter-killer team could successfully ambush and destroy an armored unit in most terrains.

Infantry training covers the following: Navigation, mounting and dismounting a vehicle under combat conditions, urban and terrain based warfare, sleep/rest deprivation training, weapons training, more hand to hand and blade fighting, calling in artillery, air strikes, mortar bombardments, reporting intelligence, using "squad level" drones, usage of heavy weaponry, usage of vehicle weaponry, prisoner procedures, survival, escape, resistance, evasion, combat movement, crossing minefields, and much much more.

Infantry soldiers are also trained in the use of scout, light, medium, and heavy armor, as well as light and combat power armor. Assault power armor is usually left to the Armored Corps.

SR II skills
Gunnery
Firearms
Stealth
Military Etiquette
Military Theory
Demolitions
Leadership
Armed Combat
Unarmed Combat

Stats Used
Body
Quickness
Strength
Reaction
Willpower

Armor Training
Called the Lords of Battle, Armor soldiers are involved in everything from light attack vehicles to main battle tanks. Armor soldiers all trained to fit into 3 categories: Gunner, Commander, Driver, with all of them having training as a Loader. These soldiers are taught how to drive all armored vehicles in the military they are part of. Unlike the Euro-Wars focus on tanks, with the new global focus on smaller battles, most Armor troops find themselves piloting Banshee and the equivalent. Main battle tanks are rarely used, but when they are, all bets are off. Additionally, armor soldiers are taught the basics of caring for the vehicles. Track and tire changing, engine diagnostics and minor repairs, computer diagnositcs, etc. Heavy duty power armors, the kind that mount small artillery weapons and 40mm autocannons and Vindicator mini-guns fall under Armor Corps rather than Infantry.

Skills
Ground Vehicles
--Tracked
--Wheeled
--Hover
Military Theory
Military Etiquette
Leadership
Gunnery
Firearms
--SMG
Ground Vehicles (B/R) (no more than one or two points)

Stats
Quickness
Intelligence
Reaction

Artillery Training
The "King of Battle", the artillery training consists of everything from 60mm mortars to the big 11" MRLS rocket pods. Also woven into this are the anti-missile defenses (Patriot and the like). This MOS set is highly demanding with mathematics, as well as being physically strenuous. (You train in humping those heavy 8" artillery shells by hand) These soldiers are trained in man-portable artillery, towed artillery, and self-propelled artillery. They are capable of computing firing angles, as well as correcting their firing patterns based on reports from drones or infantrymen or computer/satellite intelligence.

Skills
Gunnery
--Mortars
--Self Propelled Artillery
--Towed Artillery
Leadership
Military Theory
Military Ettiquette
Firearms
--SMG
Ground Vehicles
Ground Vehicles (B/R) (no more than 1 or two points)

Stats
Int
Str
Body

(I'm breaking this up so it isn't too bad of OMG! WALL OF TEXT!)
Real quick point: I am DELIBERATELY oversimplying things. Notice I didn't put any chrome down for our little AIT guys. I'll probably go back and edit that in later, or just do a chart in a later post.

Logistics Training
This is everything from normal supply, to ammunition supply, to medical and vehicle supplies. These guys are vital to the military. Without them, soldiers know good and goddamn well that they'd be wearing rags and throwing rocks at the enemy. Failure of the logistics chain has lost more battles and wars. Now, in the Shadowrun universe, this is the biggest problem in the military. This is where shoddy or substandard goods come through, where massive theft occurs, and other problems.

Logistics people are trained in: Forklift and pallet handling, packing and unpacking (military packing is waaay different than you might think), inventory, shipping and receiving, paperwork, and usually massive crosstraining. Should a logistics unit be overrun, everyone knows their MOS reverts to Infantry. In a weird way, you'll sometimes find men and women who seemed to have trained for and adopted the mindset of SOCOM troops rather than logistics.

I'm wrapping Transportation in here. These guys would be trained in rigging, mostly Banshee-like cargo vehicles, semi-trucks, small courier vehicles, but some will train with cargo helicopters.

Skills
Military Theory
Computers
Military Ettiquette
Leadership
Firearms (Usually only a point or two)
Unarmed Combat (usually only a point or two)
Armed Combat (Usually only a point or two)
Drive
--Ground Vehicles
--Hover Vehicles
--Tracked Vehicles

Stats
Int
Cha

Engineering Training
These guys train in everything from building a bridge to blowing it up. They create the fortifications, slap together the prefab buildings, clear and deploy minefields, and anything else that requires construction. But don't make the mistake that these guys aren't trained to kill. They often train with infantry, and treat the "combat" part of "Combat Engineer" very seriously. They get construction training, vehicle training, minefield training, demolitions training, and crosstrain with infantry. Their trained with heavy weaponry commonly found on vehicles, and many of them have at least basic rigging wires in order to control the monster sized construction vehicles. (A 100,000 Kilo forklift is common, as is the 1,000 ton forklift)

Skills
Demolitions
Structure (B/R)
Fortifications (B/R)
Leadership
Military Ettiquette
Military Theory
Gunnery
--Heavy Weapons
Firearms
Unarmed Combat
Armed Combat
Drive

Stats
Body
Str
Int

Military Intelligence Training (Including Deckers and MI Mages)
In the modern theater, information is priceless. Not only do you have to be able to take small bits and pieces of data and put them together, you have to find the data in odd places, or out of a mountain of data, or out of one little tiny fragging report made offhandedly by some chrome skulled grunt. To top it off, you want to destroy the enemy's intelligence as bad as he wants to destroy yours, so you have counter-intelligence and counter-counter-intelligence. Both of the Matrix/Battlefield Network variety and the "wetwork" variety. Snipers often find themselves tasked to military intelligence, and those who think it's boring find out differently in combat all too quick.

In addition to learning languages, at least minor decking, how to analyze everything from reports to photographic scans to verbal snatches, and gunnery, intel guys find themselves training for armed combat and unarmed combat, since military intelligence is a priority target. Intelligence often includes rigger drone operations. Some officers are carrying around enough processing power in their skulls to allow them to keep track of the entire battlefield and make plans, and the enlisted aren't too far behind.

Military intelligence has the shortest "non-chrome" phases.

Skills
Matrix Ettiquette
Software
Computer
--B/R
Electonics
--B/R
ECM
--ECCM
Firearms
Armed Combat
Unarmed Combat
Pilot
--Drones
Military Theory
Interrogation
Computer Theory
Psychology
Sociology
Magical Theory
Leadership

Stats
Int
Quickness
Reaction
Cha

OK, let me mention something. Yeah, I'm listing skills, but that doesn't mean that those or the only skills that someone will be trained in, or that everyone gets trained with all skills, or even that all skills get equal time across all those MOS's covered in those sections. It's a guideline, a guess, and the best I could do regarding my SRII book. (Poor Rusty, stuck in SRII and 2052)

Now, let's knock the rest of this out...


Signals Training
How many of you think signals training is something to laugh at? Your a dumbass, go sit in the corner.
In the Shadowrun world (and IRL battlefield) signals is priority. Signals handles communications, which encryption to use, what communication to use, routes and directs all radio and network traffic. Without signals, we'd be relying on smoke signals and yelling. Even bugles and flags were signals, but it's gone from that to high speed data transmission. They route orders, send in intel updates, send back raw intel data, process requests for indirect fire and air support, and most importantly to the guys on the ground, directs medevac requests.

In the SR world, Signals training would be both for over-air signals, across hardline signals, and Matrix communications. On of these guys looking asleep probably is multi-tasking his cognitive processes and running dual or triple Comlink X's running flat out at max speed with mutating encryption algorythms and scrambled carrier wave with multi-frequency agility and using his cranial deck to keep an overwatch on the datastore all at the same time. And here you can't remember what your spouse told you to buy at the store.

Skills
Computer
Computer Theory
Software
--Encryption Programs
Electronics
--B/R
Military Etiquette
Military Theory
Leadership
Firearms
Gunnery
Unarmed Combat

Stats
Int
Quick
Reac
Cha

Arcane Training
This section shows a real imbalance in many forces. While some military forces put mages in combat roles (specifically, Corporate Armies), most standing armies use them for other purposes, mostly as force multipliers in order to really ramp up the effectiveness of other troops. A vehicle repair batallion might only have one mage per company, but with the right spells, the mage can pinpoint a fault or a stress crack in the armor or frame in mere moments instead of the three or four dozen man-hours it would normally require, if it was found at all. Artillery units could use watcher spirits as forward observers, as well as to keep an eye out for counter-battery fire and artillery interception. A medical unit could use a mage or two for emergency triage, to stabalize guys who wouldn't have lasted until they got proper medical care.

Arcane training is fairly brutal compared to what most mages think it would be in a standing army. First of all, there's going to be cybernetic and bioware enhancements. Then the first week is going to consist of an Ordeal and Grade Zero Initiation. A mage must pass the initiation or be recycled or even flunked out. Those who do not pass are often relegated to logistics and support positions. Then come binding and summoning spirits, as well as banishing and detection of the same. Astral security school, spell defense excersizes, all of the nasty battlefield stuff. At the very end comes Grade One Initiaition, along with the Ordeal.

Skills
Magic Theory
Conjuring
Sorcery
Leadership
Firearms
Gunnery
Armed Combat
Unarmed Combat

Skills
Int
Will
Cha
Reac

Medical Training
Everyone loves the medics. In garrison they hand out the "hangover packs" and in combat, well, you hope you never need them, but when you do, you sure as drek are glad they are there. There are more mages in the Medical Corps than anywhere else. It isn't uncommon to find a mage on an evac vehicle, bailing out as soon as it reaches NoE and running through fire to reach a wounded soldier. The use of watcher spirits can quickly locate wounded soldiers and civilians. Medical Corps personnel often help out during civilian disasters, and often spend time going through the Z-zones and places such as those getting "live fire" training.

Medical covers everything from specialist doctors to mages to bioweapons researchers to field medics crouched in the mud trying to tourniquet a severed limb under fire.

Skill
Biotech
--Extended Care
--First Aid
Psychology
--Deviant Behavior
--Group Behavior
--Individual Behavior
Cybertechnology
Firearms*
Armed Combat
Unarmed Combat
Military Etiquette
*No heavy weapons or gunnery training is ever given to medical personnel due to the Geneva Convention and the Ares Convention.

Stats
Int
Str (Patients are heavy, patients in full combat gear are heavier)
Body (See above)
Will

Vehicle Training
Vehicles are part of today's battlefield, and will only be more so in the world of Shadowrun. Vehicles allow a rapid deployment of force, both from vehicle munitions and by dropping infantry and other soldiers into a zone. Vehicle drives provide fire support, air support, drone support, transportation of troops and war material. Rigging is only part of it, also covered in the Vehicle Corps is the mechanics, who are vital, as without their skill vehicles would quickly break down and any force would lose the advantage that the vehicles give them.

Soldiers entering the Vehicle Corps are not given rigging wires upon entry, despite common belief. Professional standing armies require their troops to know how to drive all the vehicles they will be operating via rigging wires on manual, and that includes using an old joystick/terminal to pilot drones. Rigging wires are added halfway through, and usually mated with other cranial cyberware in order to make the pilot more efficient, able to spend longer jacked in, and increase their combat effectiveness.

Often vehicle mechanics have to be able to do programming and program repair, as well as program dianostics.

Skills
Drive
Pilot
Vehicle B/R Skills
Electronics
--B/R
Computers
--B/R
Software
--B/R
Gunnery
Firearms
Unarmed Combat
Armed Combat
Military Theory
Military Etiquette.

Stats
Int
Str (Ever driven something without power steering? Yeah...)
Will
Reaction

OK, last post for awhile. I'm doing this on the fly, making it up as I go along, so I apologize for any major errors in this post or the previous ones.

Now, I"m not going to touch special operations in this series of posts. Each nation/corp would have a distinct set of operators, each with their own training and their own feel. With that...

ADVANCED SCHOOLING
This is rarely offered at signup. Usually only Airborne and Air Assault is offered when a recruit enlists. The rest of these schools, and Air Assault and Airborne, are all tasked to the individual soldier upon request and by the soldier's unit. This is where politics and individual merits come into play. You cannot go to a school without your chain of command and the training officer/NCO signing off on it.

These schools are considered elite, and many of them bring about special responsibilities within the unit.

Airborne Training
See that perfectly good airplane? We're going to teach you to jump out of it and hopefully you're not so stupid you'll die.--Airborne Instruction, 1987

Airborne is more than just jumping out of a plane at some alititude. Airborne troops are taught how to pack their gear (and in some militaries, their chutes), how to wear their gear, how to fall, how to recover and hide their parachutes and jump equipment, advanced navigation, and of course, how to perform various types of jumps.

HALO: High Altitude-Low Opening. This often entails jumping from so far up you need an oxygen tank and feel like your ears and nose are going to snap off from frostbite. The soldier is in freefall for a looong time, usually jumping from something rediculous, and opening their chute as low as 200 feet.
HAHO: A standard jump. High Altitude, High Opening. Now, these are two ways: Either a static line, where the soldier jumps, and a line attached to the plane tears open his chute, or a freefall opening ,when the soldier opens his chute.
LALO: Low Altitude-Low Opening. Only crazy people need to apply. Usually used on cargo. It really really hurts your balls when that chute snatches open.

Air Assault Training
No, this isn't just firing the guns on a helicopter. This is rappelling from a helicopter, sling load operations, and trying not to get crushed. You spend more time running from place to place and doing lots and lot s and lots of pushups than riding in a helicopter.

S.E.R.E Training
Survival, Escape, Resistance, Evasion.

Watch GI Jane, you lazy douche.

B.U.D.S.
Basic Underwater Demolition School. A soldier learns to blow stuff up underwater, as well as how to use underwater breathing apperatuses.

Sniper Training
If you don't know this one, look it up.

Combat Lifesaver Training
This turns your average potatohead into a serviceable field medic.

Leadership Schools
This teaches people how to boss other people around and other duties.


OK, I petered out. Sue me.

Listing all the possible military careers makes me think that it would be easier to have a lifepath character creation for military characters. They do this with Battletech RPG character creation and it works fairly well. Especially since you get situations where someone may start as an signal operator, cross train with the airforce for a while as a radar operator, and then cross train with the infantry.

Heck in some militarizes around the world (Canada being an example) generalized training usually means you know how to do most people's jobs (not as good as the person who is fully trained in that career, but good enough that your not useless if your attached to them). I see the NAN military taking on this type of training plan. Mind you I also see the NAN military being similar to the Clans in Battletech (few ranks, promotions based on actions, and a general superiority complex).

While Falconer has a point that SR's setting sees a return to large numbers of poor SINless who'd be willing to sign up just for a shot at 4 walls and a roof - and maybe even a job after they've done their stint, the kind of half-trained army he suggests isn't really effective.

Let's take the basic security drone: the Nissan Doberman, costs 3,000
Augmenting and equipping someone up to match their capabilities costs a over 20,000
And that doesn't include any costs associated with feeding, housing, and training them.

Just giving someone an armored vest and an AK-97 costs 1,100 to the 3,5000 it'd cost to get a Doberman with that same assault rifle. Personally, I'll put my money on the Doberman over three half-trained grunts with just basic weapons and armor. And that's ignoring all the other costs that would go into having soldiers.

While the exact numbers are going to vary for the other combat/military drones, the basic theme remains the same (the Tomino may be an exception; while tough, it's prohibitively expensive).

So, I'd expect to see the pattern being small units of extremely well trained and equipped riggers and security hackers overseeing much larger units of drones. Riggers to update the drones orders in real-time and apply metahuman ingenuity and skill far beyond what's cost-effective to buy in autosofts in those situations where they're needed; hackers to deal with matrix-based attacks on the drones. I'd imagine this will apply to both combat and non-combat roles equally. Relative sizes will probably vary, and I'm not sure exactly what range we'd be looking at, but I'd imagine somewhere between 5 drones per rigger/hacker pair and 20 drones per rigger/hacker, depending on the amount of oversight needed and acceptable margin for error.

Areas where drones aren't suited - either due to shortcomings of pilot programs, lack of suitable hardware, or simply because the level of technical skills needed is high enough that the pilot programs and autosofts needed to manage it become prohibitively expensive - will be the big exception to the pattern of drone units. Within these areas, I'd still expect to see the basic trend of highly trained soldiers equipped with high-end technology to help them get the job done (not necessarily everything they're going to need, but certainly everything that the higher-ups think they need - with probably some leanings toward getting them the things the higher ups think they might occasionally need). Sure, that quality of gear is expensive, but not compared to needing to train more of these guys because you didn't give the last batch the equipment they needed.

it's still cheaper and easier to put soldiers into walker PMVs with arms, imo.

you get the commlink built-in, their physical attributes become irrelevant, you only need to train them in gunnery and they know how to use every weapon, you only need to train them in pilot anthroform(biped+2) instead of the entire athletics skill group. it's cheap to give them 3 IPs or even 4-5 IPs, and with the +2 dice from hotsim and the +2 from control rig, you're looking at a significant boost to their effectiveness. the sensors etc would also be built in, and the person inside cannot be hit by spells because they're inside a vehicle and the mage can't see them... so stuff like control person, influence, etc are a lot less effective (it also means that those low-drain combat spells won't do anything because the vehicle is immune to stun, and isn't living, so they need to use physical spells that do physical damage, and they need to overcome the object resistance on top of that... which is likely to be better than what the average grunt's resist pool will generate)

so i don't expect to see much augmentation in the soldiers, personally. training, yes. lots of that. but the average soldier likely won't be getting muscle toner or anything like that... if they get implants at all, it is much more likely to be stuff like sleep regulaters (mentioned earlier, i know) and similar.

You're forgetting a lesson of history that it would be important to remember, something that history has proven repeatedly.

A highly trained and motivated force, properly equipped, will defeat a larger, less trained, force.

Case in point:

The Iraqi Army:


Coalition Forces


And we know how that turned out, now don't we?

With the small brushfire wars of the early 21st Century in the Shadowrun world, do you think that anyone has forgotten that simple fact? Small, well trained, well equipped forces would be even more imperative.

Conscription armies and uneducated armies are no longer as large of a threat as people think. People may still believe that human wave attacks work, but only if they are willing to suffer horrendous casaulties in order to do so, and even then, they may not succeed.

Armies would have moved to "Rapid Deployment" configuration, but still...

If you had to field a military, would you really want to take the chance of defeat if you could have prevented it?

Remember: Creating a victorious army costs a great deal, crafting the losing army costs a nation everything it has.

The Corps see the government as having more money and infrastructure than they do. The governments view the Corps as having more money and need toys.

There would be an arms race. Don't fool yourself. Shadowrun is all about the Cold War mentality.

I still stand by my point... a recruit is basically a professionalism 2 NPC (corpsec). Working it's way towards a professionalism 3+ (well equipped cop, going up to HTR, spec ops).

I can almost see an offensive/defensive split. In fact, the system argues for it. Look how often you have basic corp sec, who's only job is to play watchdog, slow down the force, while the HTR team burns in. Not all the military is HTR, you're going to have a lot of grunts whose job it is to keep things running and play defense. And remember Govs and megacorps are pretty much on the same terms here. (Ironically, Mass Effect uses a very similar concept for the humans... where other races were monolithic large standing attrition armies, humans tended to use more of an HTR approach).


Most everyone here is going for all the glamorous posts and assignments. This is why I called those equivalent to the million dollar fighter pilot investment. But for every one of those, there's your support echelons. Their percentage of the force structure will vary... but overall I agree there will be some. I just don't see people spending a lot on an easily replacable drone who will probably die in his first major firefight. (really what do you expect the combat casualty rate to be?) I'm not saying the investment won't be made, just I don't think it's the norm.

One of the problems with drones which never really gets addressed in the books....
How much does the care and 'feeding' (spare parts) of drones cost. They've given us a little more on their operational time. No figures for how much fuel costs/weighs (important if you need to distribute it in an combat zone). (really kinda silly if you think about it... especially w/ things like mods for 'stealing' power from grid guide).

A basic doberman is reasonable, but not as good as you make it out to be. You still need to arm it... so that's another 3000 for LMG + 500basic rounds. And then it only has 6 hour operational time, and only 6 armor (any hit from an AR will damage it, in fact first net hit from a SMG is dangerous as are heavy pistols). So now you upgrading their armor also? On the flipside, if one gets gunned down... chance you can recover it for parts. How does the drone's doggy brain react if it's caught by surprise?

Now, how exactly are you doing to address your C&C of those drones. Especially if the enemy is equipped w/ decent jammers and DF sets (sniffer software) for locating your transmitters. How many dedicated riggers are you going to field to service how many dobermans? (remembering to amortize their costs in?)

I'm not arguing drones aren't good, hell I'd bring some as well. I just don't see them being all that good if they're used as a replacement rather than a supplement to your unit structure.

I'm also not arguing that some factions wouldn't go the high-tech route. That one NAN faction sounds like a best case, very high-tech in nature, and little population to pull off of. However, now bring out something like Aztechnology... tons of cheap slave labour at their fingertips, backed up by some really scary cyberzombie and blood magic.


Your very baseline, reasonably equipped soldier would probably have IMO.... (professionalism 2 going on 3)
Urban Explorer w/ reversable camo pattern (probably w/ some minor chem protection against rain & chem war, and if lucky some IR suppression), biomonitor + autoinjector, AR(+GL maybe), goggles, respirator, hardened commlink. a handfull of doses of combat drugs (everything from no sleep, to betel (+1 percep), to aztec chew, stim & trauma patches, maybe a few doses of cram or kamikaze for use in a pinch). Selection of grenades, maybe a LAW (prior to SR4a's complete worthlessness fix for rockets & missiles). On top of that, maybe skillwires (so he can rapidly change to a mechanic or field tech, or even artillerist on the fly... think "The Matrix" where folks suddenly gain new skillsets on the fly).


I agree, that human waves have problems... and I don't see them being used. I just don't see there being enough of the best and supremely equipped to go around everywhere they're needed/wanted. But at the same time, there's an element here of life is cheap, battlemechs are expensive. And most wars in this time frame aren't really political but economic in nature.

And quite frankly... I don't really see anything like the Iraqi wars happening again in SR. Large standing tank armies... massive air forces... not really. They barely publish stats for attack helicopters and light fighter-bombers. It's hard to find a serious AFV/APC let alone MBT. It's suggested strongly that such are obsolete. (when your large standing force structure can get nailed by a thor shot, there's a huge incentive to disperse). Now, force your opponents to fight in close terrain like cities and such where your massive range and equipment advantage is reduced.

Also, cheap does not necessarily mean poorly trained. Stop and think what inexpensive access to non-invasive trode nets and full VR means. It means, you can train your warm bodies on the cheap w/ a minimal training budget.

I'd also expect that the overall size of 2080 militaries is much reduced, even compared to the comparatively small armies of 2008 (for those unaware, the German Army in May 1940 had more than two million men invading the West; as Rusty has already stated, the Coalition forces in Kuwait and Iraq in 1991 fielded 540,000 men -- and that force was gathered from five or six nations). As the digitization of the battlefield increases and the average intelligence level of the basic trooper subsequently increases as well, the overall number of Swinging Richards in a force also decreases. Another reason for this is that as the standard infantry weapons become more lethal over longer ranges, the need for massed numbers of said weaponry decreases; each individual soldier is worth a larger number of lesser-equipped soldiers. So with the continuous downsizing of forces, we're going to see a huge decrease in numbers of soldiers and thus numbers of units of action as well.

A case in point: Fort Lewis, Washington. In 2008, Fort Lewis is home to three Brigade Combat Teams of teh 2nd Infantry Division (the fourth is in Korea), each containing roughly 3,500 troops with integrated armor, mechanized infantry, artillery, and forward support (fuelers, transport, engineers, etc) battalions and a fourth brigade-sized support formation that owns all of the service-support units. You're looking at a permanent garrison of approximately 20,000-30,000 soldiers.

Now let's look at Fort Lewis, 2072. Runner Havens doesn't give an exact number of troops for the Metroplex Guard, but figure that Seattle's population is, say, seven million people, so to mount an effective national guard the 'Plex Guard would field maybe two or three full brigades and a support brigade -- totalling 10,000-12,000 soldiers at most.

30,000 men at a post under no immediate threat versus less than half of that at a post now completely surrounded by potentially hostile powers. Each UCAS Army base therefore houses not a full division of troops, but probably only one or two brigades' worth, which makes the deployment of the 6,000-strong Joint Task Force Seattle to Fort Lewis by General-now-President Colloton a significant long-term operation.

We aren't talking about corpsec here, we're talking army, and NO army with a lick of sense is going to deploy troops with less that 3 skill into a live fire zone except in dire emergencies with seriously extenuating circumstances. The thread isn't about HTR or FireWatch^TM or anything para-military. This is full-time stand-up armed forces. The two don't even BEGIN to compare. You keep assuming that there are large numbers of grunt troops. Look at the modern military of any Western industrialized nation. The troops are highly trained, even standard grunts. They train with live ammo on realistic battlefields. Throw in a little VR/AR and they won't be able to tell the difference any more. If there is one truism, it is that when the penny drops, you will fight like you trained; Therefore you'd better train like you want to fight. Training takes a LOT of money. "Beans, Bullets and Gas", plus spares, maintenance and repair. The fighter pilot is the top end, pinacle of the training system... except for something like SEALs. But that's because she's flying a $140 million US plane. So it makes sense to make the meat guidance system worth it: 2% the price of the plane. But a modern infantryman (with a far better educational background) costs upward of $100,000 to train, to say nothing of equipping. That means you get about a platoon of plain grunts for a fighter pilot. It makes NO sense to train up street troops to that level of expense and then throw them away or view them as disposable. The motivation of the troops is immaterial: it's the people paying to "build" them as weapons that matters; those people want a high Return On Investment, be they corp or national.

As for the support echelons you mentioned, they're even more expensive ESPECIALLY if you have to up-train them on entry. The schooling for maintenance on any of the modern networked technologies is long and intensive. You can't have any street recruit just pick it up in a few weeks. And if you plan to equip them with 'wires, the cost just jumped to the point it starts to make sense to actually train them, and your UPKEEP just skyrocketed. In the end it's a bad sollution over time. And remember: the military isn't going to just slap in 2nd hand or basic grade 'wires. The minimum they will go for is Alpha, because (if you remember older versions of the game) Alphaware is actually more rugged as well as more efficient, etc.

And finally, looking at the modern US Military, what fraction of the troops fall into some sort of "specialized" fighters? Marines have to be called specialized. You think the techniques for storming a beach can be learned from a cheat sheet? Mountain divisions, armored divisions, air-assault and paratroop divisions. Even mechanized is a specialty with unique training needs. All these require more training above and beyond that of the basic grunt, but they still aren't "special forces". Then there's the first tier SF guys, the ones who get the unglamorous jobs. Rangers, Green Berets. Then at the top of the heap, your super-specialized and ultra-skilled troops like Army Snipers and Navy SEALs, Delta Force. It's not just "good troops" and "whatever". The actual fraction of un-specialized grunts drops with each passing year.

And you make an excellent point about not being able to be omnipresent. That's absolutely true. And it's EXACTLY why you would want to focus on using what manpower you DO have in the most efficient fashion. So why have a platoon of grunts when a squad of PCA, while more expensive, gives you better results with fewer and less serious casualties? The ability to rapidly re-deploy is reshaping the Western militaries as we discuss this. The Stryker APC is being so heavily purchased BECAUSE the thing is so quickly and easily air mobile. (I am not going to get into a discussion of the merrits and flaws of that tin can here) Your grunts would have dificulty in that fluid a battle space, and would be highly vulnerable to their betters even employed in defense. And in defense, you have a better control of the EW environment, meaning you could use drones more effectively; their basing, maintenance and rearming can be done on a very short turn-around from their fixed facilities, and each is far more capable than a grunt.


OK, here you make some good arguments, but there IS extensive information on drone endurance: lots. Power is NOT a problem in 2080. Drones are largely electric, and solar cells and other power systems are compact, efficient and powerful. The drones can even have solar absorbtive paint! And you're right, they wouldn't be a replacement; I said as much in an earlier post. The problem of a dense EW environment IS a serious concern for drone control, and even on the 2010 battlefield, EW is of vital concern. That's why the things have a Pilot program though: so they can operate on last instructions until communicatuions are re-established.


The Azzies would use a human wave as a way to power up a blood spirit, not for any benefit they might really have on the attack. If you refuse to go to a minimum level of technological aptitude, you stand no chance against an opponent that does. Slave labor wasn't really economically feasible by the time of the first War Between the States, and by 2080 it's so unprofitable, nobody could/would afford it. Even slaves need to eat, sleep, have minimal health care (unless they are death camps), and training to assemble whatever it is they're doing. Don't forget, the Jews building the V-2 missiles were all highly trained people in related fields before their incarceration. Your street troops aren't.


You can't have it both ways. Your street troops are going to be given tricked out gear, combat drugs (which as mentioned before repeatedly havw their own problems, especially considering many of these folks had drug problems or were pushers before enlisting), heavy weapons (a separate skill, you will note), and then on top of it all you're going to the expense of skilwires and the associated chips? But these are "cheap" troops? Doesn't work that way. Double or tripple your investment, increase your return tenfold.


All modern wars are economic; It just depends on how you define "economy". Gulf Wars: Oil. Iran/Iraq war: Water; Yes, water. WWII: Oil, Rubber, Tin in the Pacific; the economic sanctions of the treaty of Versailles in the West. Dress it up in whatever patriotic, alarmist or paranoid clap-trap you like, but it always comes down to power, money and resources.

The only kinds of wars that AREN'T fundamentally economic in nature are ethnic / civil. Vietnam, Israel vs. All, Korea, Chechnya, Bosnia.


You're defeating your own argument here. Al'qaeda and the Taliban are arguably trained to level 2 or 3 proficiency and have comparable education levels to your street troops. But modern troops are extracting a punishing kill ratio. Add PCA to the mix, especially in close, and the ratio will become ruinous, even against a single squad of troops. And the authors have said repeatedly in the past that just because they aren't publishing it that it does not exist. Hell, the Fields of Fire sourcebook had some viciously nasty APCs in it. It's not all about range. The Viet Cong went to great lengths to set up schools to try to bring up minimal understanding so their fighters could use their combat training more EFFECTIVELY. And the AK-47 is still engaging the M-16 to this day, with training being a key determinant in success.


To some extent you're right. But with the abysmally low level of basic education amongst these street recruits you're postulating, you're going to need massive amounts of hands-on flesh-and-blood supplemental training. Otherwise these kids will wind up treating the VR like a FPS, and that gains less than nothing.

It's an intriguing idea, and you're right about people from the streets taking any shot at a SiN and a job. But the real militaries wouldn't touch the majority of them with a three meter pole. They don't have the baseline of skills to be effective, and it would be prohibitively expensive to give it to them. It's just not enough of a ROI when you're trying to maintain a small force in absolute terms while maximizing your effectiveness. Remember: one person eats the same, draws the same pay and needs the same basic services as another, and goes through the same basic training. That's why personnel is such a huge cost. That's what you haven't taken into account. To achieve the same level of effectiveness, you would need a lot more troops in an absolute sense, and when you add up all the additional up-training, multiply the individual costs (including basic training) times the number of warm bodies, and multiply the "less expensive" gear enough times to get the same ability, your ROI starts to point to the "expensive" troops. The extra flexibility and responsiveness would just be a nice bonus in the end.

I'm not citing the basic doberman as being good. They're the weakest of the drones that are actually designed with some level of combat in mind, and suffer some serious vulnerabilities, as you said.

But let's take a moment to look at what's needed to bring the basic Halloweeners Street Gang member up to par with just one of them.
You still need to arm them: 3000 for the LMG and 500 basic rounds?
They needs training to be able to use that gun (Halloweeners start with pistols or automatics, but LMGs are heavy weapons) - ???
They need some armor to match that of the Doberman - Urban Explorer Jumpsuit: 500
They need something to give them an extra init pass (Drones have 2, but need to use one of them for piloting) - Wired Reflexes: 11,000
Our higher-ups are going to want to be able to communicate with them and monitor their current status-

Transys Avalon w/ Novatech Navi, Firewall upgraded to 4 (Security drones are Device rating 4): 7,900 (Assuming that upgrading the firewall is priced at the difference in costs)
Biomonitor: 300
Standard vehicle/drone Sensor Package: 1,275

He needs to eat, he needs somewhere to sleep, he needs clothes/uniforms, he needs to be paid: ???

This guy still has some weaknesses over the drone (lack of built-in recoil compensation, vulnerability to chemical attacks, vulnerability to SnS, tendency to panic, ability to ignore orders, ability to be a traitor, inability to be jumped into by a rigger) but I think that about covers the basics. And even completely ignoring the uncertain costs for training, lifestyle, and pay, that gives us a pricetag of 23,975 for someone who's about as good in combat as a 7,000 drone when it isn't being worked by a Rigger. Which brings me back to:



This is what the rigger team is for. Give them the right skills, and they can come very close to being able to turn the drones on the spot from basic infantry/watchdog to HTR. And you aren't putting your expensive-to-train, expensive-to-equip HTR people in the line of fire where a lucky bullet can leave you needing to train and equip another one.

Hi,

First of all I would like to thank the amazing posts by Rusted Scrap Metal.

Some things I would wish to point out to people:

The most amazing equipment is useless unless there is someone trained in its use, aware of its tactical purpose and strategic operation. This is true irrespective wether it is a hammer or a SA80A2, both of which after several centuries of careful design are very good in their respective jobs.

Professional forces are now knowledge oriented and expertise driven. The British Army expects to qualify for being an officer a minimum of a BA. This is also true in the Canadian Defence Forces.

Technology is an assistant to knowledge and expertise. The SA80A2 is useless without careful maintenance and care. Any of our kit, and there are some very specialized equipment, without proper training is useless. Careful maintenance of skills is key to all functions. We are especially drilled with the constant knowledge of why we do things. Without proper maintenance of my rifle, it will cease to fire, ceasing to fire I have become a liability, a liability that can get my whole squad killed.

Maintenance means not only cleaning and oiling, but also such things as regular time at the firing range, exercises, multi-environment training, and counter sniper training. This is also followed by regular tests to make sure that all my skills are at the standard set by the Force.

There are different learning systems in each army, but they are all geared to go through different tiers of learning. In today's battlefield conscription (included such backward armies like Finland's) does not have any advantages. At the best you end up creating a Soviet style organization where troops are drilled on some very basic company and brigade level tactics. While being able to conduct them efficiently, they are easy to counter as they cannnot drastically change or shift based on prevalent battlefield needs. They also cannot change with the introduction of new technological aides.

As for additional training, there is a lot of it. Whether adventure training, combined arms training, or expertise driven training.

People use medieval warfare as an example of how wars will be fought in 2080. There were very few professional armies in the world at the time. The Roman Empire when it collapsed meant that long-standing professional armies also collapsed. From the ashes Charlamagne initiated the use of cavalry as a rapid reaction force which would be drawn from the landed. A household which had a horse would get a tax reduction and increase in prestige.

The forces that existed during that 1000 years that existed became highly specialized in their one equipment. A welsh bowman, a world expert on firing a bow, did not understand strategic or even tactical importance of what he is doing to the point where without his sargeant-in-arms he would be lost. Even large-scale technical devices such as the arbalest were used with little consideration of why it works the way it works. They often did come up with small technical mprovements, but not revolutionary designs.

Armies were not composed of professional units (except for some mercenary units, which were often reviled even by their own commanders), even then they were often swelled with conscripts in the hope of loot (the first crusade was probably the first ideologically based war in the middle-ages, which drew people together for ideological reasons and not for the gain of wealth (see Runciman, The First Crusade, and the History of the Knights Hospitallers vol. 1)).

Warfare of the time was marked my massive logistical problems (as in lack of water, food, proper equipment), morale (desertion was common), and times when warfare could be conducted (the majority of the people being agricultural meant that if an army was to be formed in April the whole kingdom would starve to death come August).

However, back to Shadowrun, you actually want to have a small military since that means that money does not go into maintaining a large peacetime force. You will spend more money on housing, feeding and clothing 150,000 conscripts a year than maintaining a 15,000 professional army. The reason why a country would insist on maintaining a conscript army is not because of military considerations, but political ones. A conscript has clothes on his back, a warm meal in his belly, money for a pack of fags and his time occupied. Conscription is a powerful nationalizing and class normalization force.

As for Shadowrunners if they are native guides. They get the native guide treatment, they get cash in hand and a warm handshake with promises of more money later. They don't get training or weapons. Why? Because a paid hand is only good until someone offers them more. So next week those same weapons and training could end up being utilised by the enemy. That is known as political suicide. If the native guide wants training then he or she pays for it just like every other third world military.

SA80? Kit? Fags? You wouldn't be British, would you? *grin* I was originally wondering where you were from, but the choice of rifle was a dead giveaway.

In Vietnam, the special forces of the times wanted Indig guides to help them with the local terrain, language and culture. But they trained them carefully to at least a minimum standard so that when the fit hit the shan, as you put it "The would not become a liability to the unit". Of course, it would depend on the mission at hand, and rest assured the military would have delved deep to find a shadowrunning team that had enough of a para-military operational style to be a best-fit mentality for quick integration. I don't think it was meant that the 'runners would spend months preparing with the SF troops, rather that folks as already skilled as veteran 'runners could benefit tremendously from an intensive crash course of formal small unit tactics, entry procedures, logisitcs, transportation and evac'. Tell me your rigger couldn't pick up a thing or two hanging 'round with the crack military S/VTOL crews for a few days practicing NoE insertion and retrieval? Or that the samurai wouldn't have her eyes opened watching the precision and teamwork in a SF-style building entry? And a hacker working with the SF's team hacker (in 4th ed, the hackers are actual team members working on-site) might pick up a couple very useful ideas about how to best support a small close-knit team in close-action?

No, I think that there would almost HAVE to be a short working-up period if the SF was going to trust the 'runners in the scrap with them, and it would be a very educational experience for BOTH sides, something the military would be more than delighted to use to THEIR advantage. Average troopers don't trust or respect the local militia, historically. But SF Indig guides are with them for a reason, and they know they are there to pass on THEIR detailed local knowledge and specialized skills as much as the SF are there to diseminate their own.

I think a separation needs to be made.

For me an indigenous guide is someone who is familiar with the lay of the land. They do not wear the uniform, carry a rifle, or be one of us. The purpose is that the liason has to liaise and that means that he or she guides us through the environment without breaking cultural taboos. That person has to look, talk, and walk like the locals. They often also work as an interpreter. Sometimes you are lucky that you have a person like this attached from MI or even more luckily a member of your squad.

Now, if I want to say learn urban survival, I go on a course. Same as everyone else. I learn how to survive in that environ. I learn about survival. This is also true with language courses.

If I was going to hire a shadowrunner team for a run in a foreign country I would go back to what I know, which is phoning up our RSM, CSM, SSM and see if they know some good lads from their regimental days I could employ. Equipment would be local, some hired hands as well that they trust, but then they are there for the money and because I was recommended by their old mates. If they are missing skills, or I am unsure of their professional quality, I would use an old RSM to put them through the paces. They are taught mission specific skills, but this is all coming out of my pocket. MI only uses such characters when no other option is open to them.

If they insist I can see about using my connections to get them a contractor status so they can take a last minute seat in course. They will certainly not learn items which are classified, but they will learn how that skill has been integrated into the Forces. They will also be dropped out if they fail to meet course requirements, or behave in a way in which can be construed as hostile. In short, being on the course is a privilege, you behave like a fuck muppet and you will be booted.

I see two options with cyberware and bioware, either it is elective which means that its cost is docked from your pay (normal to alphaware) or then you need to have a specialist qualification to gain specialist kit (equivalent to the restricted gear quality), e.g. you have to clock a certain amount of flight hours with fixed wing craft before you are allowed the wires to remote pilot its UAV equivalent.

Okay... firstly... more commercial than those you listed.. You ignore the political aspects of all those wars you list at your own peril Karenshara.

Germany did not fight for merely economic reasons. A major case can be made, that the humiliation of the terms of the treaty drove a lot of public sentiment against the French and English. The economic conditions provided a fertile ground for National Socialism (or Democratic Socialism) and it's dictates of nationalizing production while leaving it owned in private hands in name only (sound familiar). But Hitler's reasons for pushing the country to war were not economic.

Japan had economic goals, but there was also a very heavy political reason for it as well. Japan had been upgrading it's forces for the past ~100 years. It was largely a military government, which needed wars and victories to keep itself in power. This was the reason it needed the rubber and fuel, and the reason why when the US cut off those supplies, it's China campaign was in peril and forced their hand.

Gulf War I.... I can buy oil... also because it was a threat to the established political order. Which formed the threat to oil. Remember, Iraq was nominally a US ally at the time it invaded. So long as Iraq was focused on killing Iranians we didn't mind, it was only when they shifted their eyes to our other allies to the south. Second war, IMO, mostly because Iraq had repeatedly broken the terms of it's cease fire in the first, and brought about a continuous of the first war from low simmer to front full burner. Sanctions were about to fail, it was either then or withdraw in defeat. (remember sanctions and blockades are acts of war... just because outright fighting isn't going on, does not mean acts of war are not present; from that mindset, the first war never ended).

Interestingly, in shadowrun, the EEZ is something of a reality. Japan has it's economic zone and is now a major superpower of sorts.


On the marines... not really. It wasn't until Inchon that marines became the amphibious group and the army had it's amphibs stripped. Prior to that, it was the army with the majority of experience w/ largescale amphibious operations. Quite frankly, jarheads as a seperate service of the navy makes no sense. It only made sense as part of the whole... department of the army, department of the navy split since the founding of the country. When you have DOD now... w/ unified services... marines are little more than Stryker brigades (they've typically been like the army only light fighters w/o the heavier equipment... more of the rapid reaction force).

Another thing, is we regularly see cannon cockers and dismounts used as line infantry these days. So much for the specialization and AIT training.


I disagree wholeheartedly w/ your assertion that all western militaries are alike. We're in a wierd period right now where the US is a little unique. It took the last war for a lot of the other countries to sit up and take notice. In fact, there was a large problem that our allies couldn't integrate adequately w/ our own forces. They'd neglected their own forces for so long. Now a lot of them, are taking notes and changing.

Classic case in point. No offense to the few german professional military core. But a large portion of the German army is currently just a bunch of conscripts, held in there for political purposes. (to use defense spending to pay for welfare checks) It basically puts young men on the dole for 2 years during which time they're not in school and delayed from entering the workforce, and raising unemployment. This is since the unification. It's more or less the equivalent of paying people to dig ditches, then fill them back up and start again.


Your assertion that AlQuada is prof 2 or 3... not quite, more like 1 or 2. Those who actually go through the camps and such a bit more, but they'd be far rarer than the fanatic recruits. Their biggest problem is most of them can't shoot straight nor have body armor. It's more accurate to compare them to a reasonably well organized gang. Numbers and bullying can get them so far, the biggest problem is finding them and rooting them out from the populace as most of them are just organized crime gang street toughs. If you're terrorizing them, the locals take the terrorists they know over the terrorists they don't. So I dispute that element... you'll notice I included a lot of basics such as basic armor (which is reusable for the next guy).


Two, support echelons today, do not have the benefit of skillwires. I can turn anyone into a professionalism 5 whatever w/ just a good batch of programmers and a lot of warm bodies. (10k for standard rating 5 skillwires) Need an aircraft mechanic today, no problem. Need more armorers, we'll shift the first squad over to the armory after a quick skill upload to work on upgrades... Need to turn my assembly line into instant combat grunts to defend their jobs from the evil shadowrunners trying to raid the factory... upload an automatics skill and break out the weapons/armor locker. The riggers are having problems and need extra manpower to fix up the drones... no problem here's some more mechanics. And skillwires are a great tool for making productive use out of them after they muster out and maximizing my profits.

Also, chips are no longer used for skillwires except as a slang term. If I have a few thousand people... it's quite economically feasable for me to write and maintain my own skillwires software base and deploy it. Or to bulk license it. Or obtain it as part of the supply contract (w/ my order for 50 attack choppers, I get 200 floating seats of the maintenance skillwires).


I disagree on the problems w/ combat drugs. Most of them only have trouble if they're regularly abused. If it's the kind of thing which only gets used once in a while for the moths of boredom followed by 10 minutes of sheer stark terror. Especially if your medics are trained reasonably well, I don't think they'd be nearly the issue you make them out to be. Most of them are pretty cheap too (about the cost of a few bullets)... is it just me or is there no cost chart in the BBB for combat drugs like there is in arsenal?

As a point... amphetamines were widely issued and used by the military at large by a long time... including past 2000 in the US military. So I don't think it's unreasonable.


On Drones:
Yes power is still a problem. Read Arsenal on drone duration and operation. Why bother with such things as 'multi-fuel' engines if everythings electric. Even if you do spend extra to give the drone enhanced solar capability or extra efficiency... it still costs extra and eats up mod space. If you have liquid fuel engines, now you need to get them gas. Plus of course your ammo supply... and people/maintenance bots to reload the drones when their bin empties (drones can't reload themselves).

I'm not saying that there's not a lot of uses. And frankly, I think a doberman is one of the better picks... reasonable armor off the line, and importantly quadrapedal movement (rough terrain.. no problem). The main problem with it is any medium drone can't have much more armor (and that barely defends against Ex, let alone Ex-Ex, or APDS). (exception, adding reactive armor on top, which is basically an ablative armor and adds another source of in the field maintenance hassles). Not a bad drone for GP usage.



On infantry:
What is the core mission of the infantry? To take and HOLD ground. It's a unique role which none of the other arms (air or mechanized) has ever been able to take over. Light infantry are the units which can afford to be spread out and provide presence. In some states, they'll also be your local police presence.
What is the combat mission of the infantry? To find and fix the enemy, and if necessary destroy it.
Typically until very recently... doctrine was that the infantry's mission was to fix the enemy in position so that artillery, mechanized, or airpower could destroy it w/ a minimum of casualties. It's only recently, w/ the COIN bits that their close assault functions have been dusted off. (things like the M-14 only got reissued because doctrine of fixing the enemy and destroying them w/ machine gun fire or mortars/artillerry had too much collateral damage compared to a designated marksman w/ a good battle rifle).

To that aspect, maybe what I'm saying is more suited to a national guard.

I agree about keeping a small core of highly trained professionals. But they can't be everywhere. And I believe shadowrun is an environment where expendable troops are a political reality. In todays world, there is close to no such thing as acceptable casualties.

Although, I think full VR does provide the best training regimen. Even todays military uses simulated training VERY heavily. Field exercises are nowhere near as common as they used to be. Not that they aren't used. Also remember, it's optional to disconnect the users muscles from the brain, there's no reason biofeedback clothes could not be used to develop the users body/muscles at the same time you're developing his training skills.


Quite frankly, I also believe this has another important political goal. It provides a path for upward mobility. Without that, the pot boils over and I have bigger civil unrest problems.

First of all great thread, lots of quality reading here.

I think that there will be smaller, better trained and equipped standing armies in the SR world of 2060+. However, I can see the use of conscription being used for the Metroplex guard (and the like.) Cannon fiction mentioned that they guys who were guarding the wall in Chicago were guard members.

The way I see it, I can keep a small standing army (fully funded and equipped) and a large group of part timers who I can call in for short term situations. They might not be as well trained or equipped as my regulars, but if I spread my regular soldiers out amongst the weekenders, I can greatly increase my potential benefit.

I stumbled across this.... SR2 Contacts

Formal Tribal Warrior:
Commentary: "The former tribal warrior was a regular soldier for one of the nearby tribal bands before he realized that border patrol and immigration supervision duty was not his true calling. Though he feels strongly for his homeland, he has gone outside the lands to satisfy his desire for action and adventure."

Stats: Attributes fairly high, Bod:6, Quick:6, Str: 6, Cha: 3, Int: 5, Wil: 4, Ess: 5.3, Rea: 5
Skills: Armed Combat 3, Athletics 3, Car: 3, Computer (B/R) 1, Electronics (B/R) 1, Etiquette (Tribal): 4, Firearms: 5, Gunnery 4, Rotor: 3, Unarmed: 3

Initiative: 5+1d6 (EG: it has no initiative boosters or things which really give extra IPs)
Dice Pools: combat 7
Cyber: only low-light retinal mod and smartlink
Contracts: 4 contacts
Gear: Armor Clothing (5/3), Pistol, low lifestyle, medkit, simsense entertainment, survival knife, thermographic binocular, Trauma Patchs (2) x4, SMG, 13500Y


Based on that description and almost no cyber... classic case of a char w/ reasonable skills. His primary duty was more of what I'd call today a customs or INS officer (paramilitary police). Also some of his commentary regards attack helicopters (this guy is obvious also a pilot).


Former Military Officer (Low-grade):
Cyber: datajack + Smartlink
Initiative: 5 + 1d6 again
Combat pool: 8
Equip: roughly the same...

Comments: ... still belives in a strong national military, even thorugh current economics dictate the virtual impossibility of maintaining a full-sie standing army. Nowadays, most national forces have been scaled down and specialized into small, elite units. With a locked command structure, upward mobility through the ranks is almost nil. .... begun to look elsewhere for his future."


So early on, most but not all go w/ small elite core forces. And quite frankly, both the former military officer and the NAN trooper above, really aren't all that cybered up. They're pretty baseline, reasonably good equipment, reasonably good skills to use them, almost no cyber to speak of.
Ironically, they almost argue for cheap and expendable over high quality as the text dictates (compared to the street sams or even the burnt out cybermage).

I apologise in advance for the length of this wall of text. But there are some good points raised I wanted to deal with.



All wars have a political component; to paraphrase Clausewitz, war is born in the womb of politics. I did not suggest ignoring those political considerations: I was advocating looking at the underlying causes of those same politics rather than accepting the politics themselves at face value. If there had been no oil under Kuwait, would the United States and her allies have responded with such alacrity and overwhelming force? Of course not. While you can buy oil, that oil must be supplied to market, and having that much of the world’s supply under control of one person with stated …quot; and acted upon …quot; desires for weapons of mass destruction, seemed like a very Bad Idea. Even Gen. Walter E Boomer, USMC agreed that it was fundamentally a war for the free flow of oil: in other words, as he put it “a war for the American way of life.� That’s a direct quote from a private conversation.

Your observations about the “economic conditions� being “fertile ground for [the Nazis]� are exactly correct, and if you don’t believe that the supply of what are still referred to as “strategic materials� was at the core of his need to expand, you missed a chapter somewhere. Both Germany and Japan had severely limited sources of certain commodities vital to (especially military) industry at the time. Combined with little things like the Washington Naval Treaty and its revisions, both nations were limited to smaller fleets than their opponents as a means to SECURE the sea lines of communication to guarantee flow of the vital materials. Add in the loss of highly industrialized border areas to France and a belief that eventually Stalin would come knocking for Germany’s industry and to neutralize the threat… Ideology provides a convenient means to package a war, but the ultimate goals must include some form of economic security because the price tag of war is vast. Consider if Germany had faced only Briton, with the Americans on the sidelines. Britain came within literal DAYS at one point of being STARVED into submission by the predations of German U-Boat wolfpacks. So Germany controls continental Europe unopposed, and can focus her attention exclusively on the Soviets. And Japan controls the entire pacific, denying the US access to the same commodities that drove them to become expansionistic. Keep in mind, that these were WORLD wars, and fighting to control each other’s colonial territories was a major, though oft overlooked component of that struggle; those territories were the SOURCES of the contested strategic materials. Remember that it was US sanctions against little things like oil that drove Japan into the arms of Germany. Japan didn’t need the fuel and rubber for “little wars�, she needed it for industrialization. Synthetic rubber was a dream at the time, and the transition from coal to oil was firmly under way by this point. Do not forget the religious stature of the Emperor and the attendant respect that gained him from the Japanese people.

On Iraq, as I will touch on below, it’s about control of the single most valuable resource on the planet today. The possibility that the continued supply of that commodity could become a weapon in itself was a clear and present danger to the world economy. What if we had allowed Iraq to stay safely in Kuwait? The Saudis had nowhere near the forces to stop Sadam from pushing south into the richest developed oil deposits in the world. Once he had control of that, he could demand the world sit idly while he built another reactor and restarted his nuclear weapons programs in earnest. If you don’t know what I’m talking about, Google “Osirak Reactor� and get back to me. (I personally believe we owe Israel a great debt for that raid. What if Iraq had possessed nuclear weapons prior to the invasion of Kuwait? He burned the oil wells when he retreated as it was.) And Kuwait was a MUCH closer ally than Iraq. We supplied weapons to Sadam Hussein so he could kill Iranians lead by fanatic religious leadership with open (and demonstrated) hostility to the United States and her interests. The second war in Iraq… I am not going to get into the disgraceful chain of events leading up to the invasion. Sanctions are not “acts of war� incidentally, and while a “blockade� is, an internationally sanctioned “quarantine� is not, as set by precedent during the Cuban Missile Crisis by president John F. Kennedy. Enforcement of sanctions by force, when something like the United Nations backing the effort, is not a “blockade� in the strictest sense.





A bit of history: the Marines were an amphibious assault unit well before the outbreak of hostilities and had, quite literally, written the book on how such operations should be conducted. The US Army was NEVER an amphibious arm, and they adopted those responsibilities out of necessity because of the enormity of the task(s) compared to the size of the Marine Corps. There was serious consideration prior to the Normandy invasion in Europe of shifting the Marines from the pacific to Europe expressly for their skills and experience at amphibious warfare. Close Air Support, as we know it today, was conceptualized, pioneered and developed by the Marines. The amphibious tractors and landing craft were developed for the Marines. Please don’t ever say things like that in front of a Marine to their face. Seriously.

And the Marines STILL form our amphibious arm, though many of their units have been tasked to land-bound operations as we are committed in an ongoing conflict, and every Marine is an infantryman. And the Marines were the armored spearhead in the 2^nd Gulf War, driving clear to Baghdad. In M-1A2 tanks, the heaviest and most powerful ground combatant vehicle in the US Inventory. They have their own APCs, both tracked and wheeled: AAVP-7’s and LAV-25’s respectively. They have significant air attack assets, both fixed wing and rotary: AV-8B Harrier II’s and AH-1W Super Cobra’s respectively. If you ask a Marine, they will tell you that you have it backwards: the navy exists solely to transport and deliver the Corps to its next fight.

As to the way specialized troops are being pressed into “general infantry� missions, I have a close friend who was a cannon cocker until he lost his leg performing a “general infantry� mission, so I wouldn’t go lauding that example. That is an example of a worn out and over-stretched military grasping for the warm bodies to fill boots and carry rifles that you seem so fond of. That’s not AIT; It’s basic training. Everybody goes through exactly the same courses. And it is my opinion that part of the reason we have experienced the casualty rate we have is that non-specialized troops are doing those duties.





Yes, they DID neglect their militaries, but that is not the same as neglecting their doctrine. Please keep the two separate. The “last war� forced them to “take notice� that president George H.W. Bush’s vaunted “New World Order� was nothing of the sort; meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

I’m not going to comment on your observations about the German military present day, but it goes back to your own previous argument: if it’s so blatantly obvious that conscripts are sub-par, why would anybody want to have an army like that? I repeat: if you don’t have a SiN, you legally don’t exist. The government does not maintain welfare programs for people who do not exist. Of course we “know� they’re there, but to the eyes of the law, they are non-entities.

And when I mentioned Al’Quaeda, I was specifically referring to those who have been through the camps. Let’s take a close look at what Shadowrun says the skill levels are: 1) Trained; 2) Beginner; 3) Professional. The proficiency of the people coming out of those camps in terms of combat skills has proven to be frighteningly high, and in some areas like hand-to-hand combat, even higher than the basic (not AIT) training courses of the US Army. That’s enough to earn a level 3 skill. As to not shooting straight, tell that to the families of slain American and allied servicemen and women felled by sniper’s bullets. Their biggest problem is the weapons they are employing: the AK-47. At any kind of extended ranges, even with the problems I mention below about extreme range accuracy with the M-16, the AK-47’s round is very inaccurate. It is in all senses the classic “assault rifle� on the original German pattern: massive fire power at point blank and short ranges appropriate for close assault combat. Planners in the US Army have always favored long range marksmanship, which is one reason the M-16 had quite so many problems gaining acceptance and reaching full maturation. And not everybody shooting those AK’s has been through the camps. Those folks ARE more like an urban street gang …quot; spray and pray. Please keep the two separate. I was only talking about the hard-core and formally trained terrorists.




OK, once more, start with at least Alphaware, so double your costs. Second, add in lifetime support costs for the system in terms of maintenance and repair. Third, the Army isn’t going to write the code for the chips itself. It will have a corp do it for them, say, Ares. They will ship out on “chips� with a serial number. (I will use chips from now on when referring to the single copy protected piece of code, wether on chip or loaded on ‘wires.) They have copy protection, and once uploaded will be tied to that series of ‘wires. So you have to pay the full price for each trooper. Maximum skill is 4 for active skills, per BBB. Rating 5 wires just means you can have 10 points of skills loaded at a time. Now your costs are going up again. And there is no flexibility or learning curve, at ALL. Every time a new system is fielded that needs a chip to work it, you need to upgrade the chips. Lots easier to let a flexible meat-ware processor handle it on its own, since minor changes will be intuitive to a (meta)human while the chip will be baffled. If you think copy protection isn’t an issue, read Unwired. And if you think the Army would implement a system of breaking it, you think Ares wouldn’t sue, and sue big?




Where to begin? “Especially if your medics are trained reasonably well�. So the medics, one of your “rear echelon� folks that would be easy to ‘wire, are going to be up to dealing with the idiosyncratic reactions? Maybe. Either that or you have SOME “R E� folks that have to be smart, educated and well trained. If you plan to use the drugs like that, you’re losing sight of the fact that each person reacts differently to combat, especially the first time, and adding the shock of a combat drug to that mix… *shudders* As for “stimulants� generally, the militaries have been using coffee and tea (read: caffeine) since as long as we’ve had them. I have less issue with the stims and other basic “crutches� you mentioned. Really, I don’t. But those are for extending function, not really boosting it. In a real firefight, you don’t need “stimulants�. You need them for guard duty, or the lull after the fight. It’s those hard “combat� enhancement drugs I take issue with.





I didn’t mean drones have unlimited range/power. What I meant was that in an OPERATIONAL sense, their needs are paltry compared to the voracious appetite of a turbine-powered MBT or attack helo, or heavens help you a petrochem fueled fighter. And the military would select the power plant/propulsion most suited to their needs. If minidrones were able to carry enough power for several hours of independent operation in a battery, it would make sense for the military to select them. Most drones in 2080 are going to be short legged tactical battlefield systems, not the world-spanning Global Hawk missions of today or the day-long missions of Reapers. Those systems will still exist, but their needs are met at a strategic level, not a tactical or operational one where getting the right fuel to the front line is crucial. The ammo issue is immaterial …quot; it is the same ammo as the troops they are supporting. The military has always been big on standardization.

Oh, and please don’t use the word “ablative� in the same sentence as “reactive�. There is a HUGE technical difference in both design and function. The only similarity is that both are “consumed� in their use. And don’t assume that every round in every assault rifle is APDS or Ex. First of all Ex has a little mis-fire problem. And APDS is actually LESS effective against unarmored targets IRL (as opposed to the BBB). Most soldiers would use regular ammo for almost everything, with a clip or two of APDS for hard targets. If you need it to go “boom�, that’s what grenade launchers and rockets are for. Why use expensive ammo when normal ammo will do fine? And I am sure doctrine would call for the firing of APDS and similar high-value ammo in aimed short bursts, with full auto resulting in a lengthy debriefing and lecture by a CO requesting an explanation of why you felt it was vital to expend so much expensive ordinance like that. Oh, and I’ll need that extra stripe back.





You are quite correct that infantry take and hold ground, whereas armor might deprive the enemy of it, and drones can deny it’s use to the enemy. But paratroops are “infantry�. (Technically, amongst the lightest infantry around, especially in the air-assault / vertical envelopment phases.) Mountain troops are infantry. Mechanized infantry are: Infantry! They are more than capable of taking and holding ground: that’s why the M-2 Bradley was built; To allow the infantry to keep up with the new high-speed M-1 Abrams tanks under protection from small arms, artillery and CBR threats, then dismount on the objective and secure it, along with the flanks of the now-parked Abrams which is providing their long-range fire base.

As to doctrinal shifts, your comment on the M-14 rifle’s re-issue is so far divorced from the realities of front-line combat in Afghanistan, I wonder where you got your information. The actual reason they dusted off those weapons was that the 5.56 Nato round has a MAXIMUM engagement range of 600 meters, and at those ranges it’s more a matter of luck than marksmanship hitting a target, and forget penetrating the least bit of cover if you do get on-target. The M-14’s 7.62 Nato round is lethal out to well over 1000 meters, and that’s with just good marksmanship (ok, and a very nice sight). The problem is that many engagements are taking place across the width of mountainous canyons or across vast open stretches not to be found in Iraq due to the urban nature of most of the fighting. And not all armies abandoned the idea of the “designated marksman� originally, so they had less to “dust off�.

As to the National Guard comparison, here I think you MIGHT be on to something. But remember what we said before about the peace-time utility of things like PCA. Now, it MIGHT make sense from a political stand point to offer training and education to volunteers, but they would still have to come by the SiN somehow, because that would be a program for “citizens�, not “riffraff�.



No, but neither can a conscript army be everywhere. Even in a full blown war, you’re mainly manning the FLOT (Foware Line Of Troops) and the logistical chain supporting them (and their security elements, of course). In the Balkanized 6^th world, you don’t have the US Military with 2/3 of it’s strength strung around the globe. And remember, corps have their own security forces (which are better trained and equipped than even most pre-Iraqi Freedom National Guard forces) as well as serious stand-up military units. So the actual number of places you “need to be� is relatively small. Very high speed troop transport means you can redeploy within hours. A bigger danger is deep penetration precision strike missions, and here the enemy is certain to bring his very best. That means you’d better have your best troops defending or in a position to respond FAST, because even huge numbers of untrained troops will be massacred by crack (Skills at 5+) soldiers with moderate enhancements and PCA dropped in with a supersonic VTOL that just screamed in NoE under radar. You are completely right however, that there is no such thing as acceptable (friendly) casualties.





Forget biofeedback clothes. Simsense can deliver very painful negative reinforcement for doing things like getting killed. If you have that implanted comlink with SIM module I mentioned, you can actually have the program overlay VR over real terrain. These days, guys train with lines on the ground to familiarize with a building’s layout prior to entry in a hurry. Imagine being able to see the whole thing, as well as “projected� bad guys over targets to absorb your live rounds?




Upward mobility. What makes you think either the corps or the governments have ANY interest whatsoever in providing “upward mobility� to the SiNless? Huge sections of the Seatle Metroplex are so far gone, the cops won’t even go there, and without a SiN, there’s no way to collect a check …quot; you’re not a citizen and you don’t exist.



Seriously: Which version of the game did you come in under? I'm curious.

Why the hell would you use skillwires in rear area anything? Drones for that are right there in the book, and being in that they don't need to eat and electricity is cheap, they are going to be better than anything you can do with people. Sure there will be some down time for recharging and the odd overall, but it isn't 8 hours a day

Drones don't get bored or want time off either, so everything will get done absolutely to spec no complaints.

Well, if you're willing to slog through the walls of test in this thread (a lot of that my fault, sorry) we have been bantering about using a military version of the "chipped workforce", where completely untrainted persons could be made able to perform administrative, maintenance, medical and other functions a drone would be a little poorly suited to fulfil. Problem is, the big advantage of a human is "intuition", which 'wires deprive you of. You're right about patrol duty, though.

There are medical drones right there in the book. Drones are ideally suited to do medical and maintenance fuctions. Heck, a drone is actually cheaper than the skillwires, let alone paying and feeding the guy.

I haven't looked too closely at the 4th ed drones yet. We have a serious (and good) dedicated rigger in the party. I do notice they added "anthroform" so presumably they're a LOT more advanced. Well, I guess that kills the entire idea of a 'wired rear echelon.

There are medical and aerospace maintenance drones in arsenal. The clever part is that they can be jumped into by riggers too if the job is too hard.

Would mean the rigger has to posess the skill themselves, but it WOULD really allow a rigger mechanic to cover a LOT of area. Thanks!

First Cthulthudreams... this quickly segues into the slightly off topic realm of why ever bother w/ people at all. If all you ever need are drones and riggers.

Why bother w/ guys in the factory at all, drones can do it all.

In the end, it comes down to a social/political limiting factor. Drones don't buy the products they make, people do. At what point do you end up w/ "The Matrix" where machines produce simply for the sake of other machines and humans are out of the picture. That's not meant as a reductio ad adsurbum argument either. Once you go down that path, where does it stop. Especially if you're only goals are economical.

We'll just make all these people sinless.. and why. We don't care about them.. they're just a waste of space. So much easier just to erase them from the system.

And most of the skills I'd consider chipping, are simply mechanical ones... aiming and firing your gun 101. Things like battlefield tactics, and perception... those are things a drone does not have. And is no match even w/ upgrades for an actual human intuition. And again, if your force is monolithic you leave yourself vulnerable.

On the drones... yes there are some repair drones... yes a rigger can jump into them for some tasks. But again now we get into the problem of how many riggers for how many drones. How much does it cost to train each and every one of those riggers let alone outfit them. How do you maintain usable comms in a battlefield environment for them. How do you avoid getting your support echelons thor shotted like they will in any kind of a static emplacement base.

Again, I'm not saying that they won't be used and won't be used a lot. Just a full blown replacement is a far different than as a supplement.

Oh yeah, but the as the drone can run a skill 4 autosoft, you'd have a few highly skilled riggers who'd only come in for the really difficult jobs in your rear echelon. In combat you'd need more people, but considering the range of capabilities on offer with drones (particularly hunter killers), you're still going to have lots of them.

It's actually an excellent question, and one being asked as we speak by modern military commanders? There are some excellent reasons to pull people totally out of the equation. But as I mentioned either above in this thread or elsewhere, if the drone is reprogrammable after launch, it's hackable. And Electronic Warfare makes long range communications tenuous at best. Remember also that IRL, bouncing off a satellite relaying to a second and getting back down is a bare minimum of 2/3 of a second or so round trip. That makes direct remote control from across the world problematice. So far, the idea has been to keep a manned aircraft locally to be able to reprogram the drones on the fly. When you're close physically, EW concerns are partly ameliorated. If left to their own devices, drones are frighteningly literal, and will be unable to adapt to completely unforseen circumstances. Say you pop up at the IP (Initial Point) to begin your final run to target, only to see children playing outside because your intel sucked. A human will abort. A drone will carry through with the attack. The biggest advantage of the manned bomber in the Nuclear Triad is that it can be kept in a loiter status (more Cold War) and most importantly: it can be recalled up to the moment the weapon is released. Same kinds of things go for close combat drones. I can't see turning that all over so easily. Drones are set to improve battlefield awareness, replace humans in the most risky situations (bomb disposal, medical retreiva under fire), and increase mobility and firepower. But nobody's quite ready to let them fight the whole war.

In terms of training costs versus implantation, there is one last thing to consider about 'wires versus anything else. The maximum number of "skill points" you can cram into 'wires = rating x 2. So the best 'wires are 10 points. Giving them, say, Automatics 4 only leaves 6 points left for anything else. Hand to hand? Clubs? Blades? Heavy weapons? Throwing? Even with plus-coding (Unwired), which gets very pricey very quickly, you're going to have an upper limit to simultaneous skills/ratings. If you don't have a Comlink, you need to have the original shipping chips to swap out. And though you could use an external comlink, that's too easy to damage in the middle of combat if it's not implanted. A head hit that takes out the 'link is probably fatal anyway. So the best way to use 'wires would be in combination with a implanted comlink (Sim module, hardening and skinlink) and a data jack. That would also have the advantage of being able to slave in any external worn gear. And power is a non-issue for cyberware. I can see a place for 'wires in the military, just not as a general "grunt" issue item. The big thing, frankly, is going to be the ability to pull up field manuals and so forth with a comlink, especially an implanted one with a Sim module, as it needs no "input" devices like AR gloves for manipulation, nor any output device since it's in your natural vision. The drawback would be most of the SiNless are functionally illiterate.

OK, let's say they institute a recruitment program. I will grant that there would be political/PR benefits as well as occasionally gleaning some new talent. I woud submit, however, that there would be rigorous (for the uneducated) entrance tests of both body and mind. Pass the test, and you won't cost too much to get fully trained. Fail, and we're sorry. Maybe next year. It wouldn't be a general cattle call. The modern (and future) military is just too technical to "make do" with uneducated people when others are available. Now, the military MIGHT have an outreach program where they help communities help themselves educationally and so forth, and that wouldn't be that expensive. THAT has some merit worth considering. But you'd still need to pass the entrance exam.

Your argument about intentionally disenfranchising people is worth discussing. The spending power of the SiNless is very low, so economically they neither contribute nor consume a large amount, even collectively. But they also don't pay taxes, which is why a government does not want to grow their base. Ideally, a government would want to DECREASE the number of SiNless, but so many of them would be below the "poverty" line it would be a net loss in revenue. Most factories ARE run by robot/drone in the 6th world. Take a modern computer chip plant: a few siled (and educated) technicians to watch over the machines and clear any problems/faults. The largest group of people will be in the development, marketing and engineering sections... and of course managment. That still leaves a whole lot of people. And computer code needs writing and debugging. People still prefer to be attended by (meta)human physicians and emergency services personnel. Chauffers are a thing of the past except exclusively for prestige and/or personal protection. Maintenance of your car would be by drone in a AAA Corp sector, but by a person in low to mid income areas. Delivery of packages is drones. The way I prefer to think of it is "[drones] are doing the jobe Americans won't", to steal and butcher a common phrase. And as a final reason governments and corps don't want to increase the rolls of the SiNless is Big Brother. It's easy to monitor and track somebody with a SiN. Frighteningly so. That's a measure of security and power unto itself.

I'm going to try and cut this down a little to avoid getting a new installment of "War & Peace".




One of the problems w/ quoting Clausewitz is outside of the military, he's rarely studied or understood. Most people are only familiar with the classic statement "War is the extension of politics by other means"... and then it gets blamed for WWI w/ the entangling alliances. So it normally gets the argument and point discarded by the wider populace.

No need to go into things like the naval treaty here. As the treaty never worked... it was about as effective as the Kellogg-Brand pact And has little bearing on the subject at hand.

Germany had plenty of assets which were fully capable of thrashing the French yet again. Even w/o the full blown access to everything and anything. In a way, Germany was successfull at one of it's war aims... it destroyed the colonial system for both France and England, even though it lost the war. At the least, it greatly accelerated the downfall. The same network you allude to when you go into the naval assets.



Avoiding getting too deep into this. All *LARGESCALE* military assaults prior had not been marine actions. For a long time, marines primary mission in life was to provide ship's security. It was the exception to the rule to find them engaged bashore. And I can cite this going back to the war of 1812. Ironically, after the Barbary actions... it sort of fell by the wayside. "From the halls of Montezuma" comes from the marines who were attached to the army units who again did the amphib landing unopposed, and then went to Mexico city under army command.

The marines had little to do w/ the army landing in Africa, then refining on Sicily, then refining again in Italy, by the time D-Day came around... the army was the only force w/ experience in massive scale amphib operations. The island hopping campaigns did not use nearly the number of troops or logistical problems that the army came into in landing on a continent vs. landing on a small isolated fortress island. Precisely, because while moving a lot of men, they didn't move a lot of heavy equipment with them as was necessary in Europe. (Japanese tanks being a bit of a joke, more akin to an armored car)

I'd like to see a cite, where the marines were ever seriously considered for bringing in for Normandy while they were engaged in the Pacific campaign and after the Army had already demonstrated 3 largescale opposed landing operations. Even in the Pacific... by far the largest scale invasion was of the Phillipines and that was again done by the army, not by the marines. Which is why it's surprising that MacArthur later turned around and tapped and rebuilt the marines for Inchon. After that I agree, they became the de facto amphib branch.




Because they are alive and entities... and they're consumers. There is some form of a productive economy of which the corp markets feed. And they're a political problem. Just because they're sinless doesn't mean that there aren't a significant portion of your own citizens who just don't care.

Look at how many nutjobs go apeshit over the humane society in this day and age. Let alone the vegans or animal rights types.

Also, they're a resource to be tapped. If not, why not just go on an urban renewal program... and raze the whole area w/ nerve gas, then build it back up properly.




Okay, firstly... 'snipers' here is used loosely (compared to our own standards at least). If you can producively use a small portion who are good shots in such a way, giving them half decent rifles... why not. I'm talking in terms of the general case, specially thinking of early clashes between US trained Iraqi's and insurgents (line units). To extend that to the specific case, is like using the exception to prove the rule.

And again, just because they've been through the camps doesn't make them great. You're basically reducing the argument to... they have crap equipment... therefor they suck. Which was part of my point in the beginning.




Disagree strongly.

Alphaware is just an extra cost... not worth it. Maybe in prior editions it had something like that, but I've seen nothing to the text you indicate anywhere in 4e. 4e is even heavily lacking the cost of living adjustments necessary for say regular cyberlimb maintenance. If the grunt wants to take a pay cut for alpha... more power to him.

Two... single use, no way. You really need to read the new rules. Especially when skillwires software itself costs 10's of thousands for a single 'seat'. The ludicrously low cost of skillwires software was one of the things I'm very glad they fixed in SR4A. It's so expensive it's easy to justify paying a small team of programmers a few 100k a year just to have your own written in house for widescale deployment. There's nothing in the system, stopping people from

Also, when I'm dealing w/ expensive software... (this comes up a lot)... it's not done per install, it's one per active seat. I can have the software installed on 100 computers, but only 10 can use it concurrently. The rest are out of luck until it's there. So even if you did buy... you should easily have a system where active software is checked in and checked out... using the term 'chip' is a bad misnomer.

Also Ares... sue... who are you joking. It's a megacorp... it's companies are extraterratorial to the country. This isn't a contractual violation, it's a treaty violation. Treaties aren't enforcable by the courts. They're only enforcable to the extent that laws are passed to implement the treaty. Granted, it's bad business to piss off your supplier if you want to buy more from him in the future. Here I don't exactly how the corporate court comes into play.. I'd have to reread that.





We'll have to agree to disagree here... as the side effects of drugs are never really covered in the rules well. Nor how quickly people become addicted or massively changed by exposure to them.

I think we're largely on the same page here... another way to view this is those combat drones have a short operational range, before they need to be returned to their 'tender'. Or the tender needs to come to them.




I know the differences, at this point you're just nitpicking... they're both degraded as the unit takes hits and turn into a huge maintenance hassle when it comes time to service the armor. Which makes them from a game perspective interchangeable.

I want chapter and verse that Ex has a misfire problem. It's never mentioned not once in 4th that I've seen.
APDS is in game, not IRL

Rockets and GL's need workable scatter rules to be effective... especially rockets and missiles (with thie $$$$$$$$$$$$ pricetag!)



Actually it's quite well informed. I've been there. I will not go farther than that in this forum. You probably wouldn't believe me anyhow.

You and I are saying EXACTLY THE SAME THING DIFFERENTLY. The infantry was not expected to need to engage targets outside of close range w/ direct fires, w/ heavy weapons being used at those ranges. (Or calling in external fires/support). That changed, when they suddenly learned they couldn't deploy a sniper w/ every platoon/squad... and the designated marksman started to be deployed again w/ the squad. (ironically this copies an old standard russian deployment model... each squad had a SVD and someone specially trained to grab it from the APC when needed and use it. Not a full blown sniper, but a designated marksman. This was specifically because the accute need to be able to engage extended range targets w/ minimum collateral damage came up.






You missed the point completely. It had nothing to do w/ 'pain'. It had to do w/ developing muscle groups and body scores while they're in training. If they're motor nerves aren't cutoff, and the clothes are effectively forming a 'weight machine'. It's all about burning off the flab and turning them into lean, mean, healthy fighting machines.

Under normal simsense... those same muscles would atrophy a bit, and while skills would be developed, the body would not be.




Political reasons... if they're as worthless as you say. They're nothing more than a drain on society, and a potential source of much trouble and unrest. You still have your own SIN'ed people who are concerned about them and can make a problem for you (in an elected government, granted in a megacorp/dictatorship things change).

Not all of them are going to be worthless dregs... You want to harvst those and turn them into productive citizens.

Again... why not just call it the ghetto, and send in the drones armed w/ nerve gas to raze the place if they're as inconsequential and worthless as you say.


Originally 1st... I missed out on pretty much all of 2 and 3... only with 4th did I finally pick up the book again.

One very important thing to remember is that the separation of the US into it's new smaller parts has resulted in a great decrease in the potential for military spending. With the separation of California alone, the UCAS lost the 7th largest economy in the world, as an example.
With this in mind, I see the typical forces being separated into National Guard-type defensive units that are little more than security guards with basic disaster relief and "round end towards enemy" training and decent, if a bit dated, equipment. The offensive/strike units will have top of the line gear and training that would be considered "elite" by today's standards. With the de-classification and non-exclusivity of most military weaponry and technologies in the SR universe, it will be a lot cheaper to get the "State of the art bang-bang!" that your force(s) will need.
To be honest, with the dramatic increase of battlefield IT and it's rapid reaction capability, you'd be much better off with a small group of elite airborne-capable units with stealth capability and heinous amounts of force-multiplier weaponry like drones, smartguns, and smart grenade systems than you would with trying to maintain a larger force that will simply get ground into mulch by the advanced weapons of the SR universe. Once you get found by weapons like this, you tend to get dead really fast unless you can get unfound on the quick.

"Speed is life", is just as true for a modern ground unit as it is for a cutting-edge fighter pilot...and it will only get worse by 2070.

Drones cannot replace skilled human professions - management consulting, lawyers, engineering in the R&D sense as well as design and product development, banking are all not replaceable by drones.

Given that and the nature of the setting, it is quite reasonable to have a world in which no blue collar professions exist at all. All those people will have become disenfranchised SINless who need massive education programs that weakened states cannot afford. In this world, anyone without a masters degree is essentially useless.

Corrected portion in bold.

No, they are actually useless. There is literally nothing they can do that a drone cannot, and because they need to eat, you need to buy drones to farm food for them, because they lack the technical ability to even work as a farm hand.

At which point you may as well just replace them with a drone than some bizarre move of buying drones to enable you to enslave humans to do whatever it is you want, rather than just getting the drones to do whatever it is you want.

They actually have less value than a robot - they have been completely dehumanised and have no value.

Edit: There is a few obvious exceptions just as personal servitude and sex slavery where a real human has better look and feel than a robot, but indentured servants as prostitutes is illegal in most countries.

The point of a drone isn't to replace an infantryman, it's to enhance that infantryman as an individual fighting unit.

By simply giving each trooper a dog-brain mini/micro drone with a decent sensor suite, you will make one SR-tech infantryman the equivalent of a modern day fire team as they will be able to gain more effective intel, be more accurate with their organic weapons and supporting arms, have exponentially more situational awareness, and generally be more able to do much more with much less per-round armament and support than at any time before this.

Same job with 1/5th to 1/10th manpower? Sounds like a winner to me...

Oh yeah, for fighting you definately require people with real brains doing the thinking - I've advocated fore models built around mechanised infantry before here

I am a bit divided on drugs, they enable the enemy to take one or two more hits before going down. They are also used as a recruitment and retention tool. Addiction being the key parts in this. The individual gets a sense of godlike individuality. They lose sense of their mortality.

The problem I have is having to fucking organize such a yob group of 18 year old windowlickers. We are dealing with kit that has a price tag in the hundreds of thousands of pounds. These are not Our Lord's Army Tom, Dick's and Harry's whose most complex piece of kit is an AK-47 and a truck.

My squad has to deal with explosives, with incoming fire, with C&C, we coordinate with all sections of the MoD, not including respective NATO troops. The squad may be on the field for days if not weeks. You start taking drugs that alter perceptions, they decide that sticking their head up from their shell scraping as a laugh, now I have to go into his fucking shell scraping and call in artillery, or operate the GPMG or use the laser designator, so that we can finish our objectives. I find out that someone in my chain of command likes the drugs, he is in for a "chat" with my commander and RSM. There are enough things that can go fucking Pete Tong on the battlefield without giving domides with rifles drugs.

I agree. The use of combat drugs would be very selective and only in certain circumstances to keep your army from turning into a bunch of crackhead wastrels. I also concur that most enhancements would focus on increased IT capabilities (datajacks, etc) except for the very highly elite as it would be a waste to use the high-speed/low-drag tech on grunts for the most part.

There are very few things that cyber/bioware can do that decent medic support and good kit can't do just as well for a lot less money.

Basicly it all comes down to money how cost effective is the weapon/force that you are using reguardless of any thing else it must be value for money

Huh. I'm rather surprised that PWCs aren't playing a bigger role with the the whole "Corporations rule the world" lens that Shadowrun does. I expect with a Tom Clancy video game and one coming from the folks that do SOCOM, There will probably be some source material coming out soon.

That's an interesting observation, but I would say that I don't blame Clausewitz for WWI, but rather his adherents and their own narrow interpretation of his writings (read: the idiot Generall Officers on BOTH sides), and truth be told, far more on Mahan, because his work largely got the major COLONIAL powers, and those with those aspirations, thinking in terms of battleship navies. But that's getting far afield.


Well, considering that the Marines were fully deployed in the Pacific and had already conducted the bloody invasion of Guadalcanal in August 1942... Operation Torch didn't take place until November. The marines were picked for the significantly more dificult island hopping invasions - you can defend a small island easily because you KNOW where the enemy has to land. Against something like the coast of West Africa, there's a lot of room. If you want to define total man-landings, the Army DID have more men over the beach. And I will not deny the amount learned from EVERY landing, Army and Marine, during the war and poured into the Operation Overlord planning. But the Corps didn't even have enough men to handle the islands in the Pacific on its own. You mention logistical problems, but I think you have it backwards. Invading over a few dozen or even a few hundred miles from a secure primary base is one thing, but stringing the needed logistical chain over THOUSANDS of miles of open ocean, in vessels incapable of achieving even twenty knots, is something unbelievably difficult. Landing on the small island is tactically more difficult, in terms of trying to minimise casualties, but if that island happens to be located in the middle of the Pacific ocean and your ONLY air cover has to be provided by aircraft carriers whose captains are much more interested in sinking Japanese shipping and knocking down Japanese airplanes than providing direct ground support for the troops on the beaches. Your comment about a lack of heavy equipment made me boggle a little. The Marines went ashore with the same light arms in the first wave as the Army until the DD Shermans made an apearance in June 1944. But the second landings included the same heavy armaments of Sherman tanks (usually the Diesel models in the Pacific theater so they could more easily use the existing Navy supply chain, which coincidentally saved lives by not burning as easily) and artillery used in the opening phases of every invasion up to Normandy. You're right about the relative usefulness of Japan's "tanks" on the islands, but there were plenty of Shermans around. And I'm not sure why you think a "lot" of heavy equipment wasn't involved. Considering that all the airbases were built with materials brought in and errected with heavy machinery, I would think that qualified as moving a lot of heavy equipment.


Wait, I'm lost suddenly. I think we HAVE to be misunderstanding something both ways, because your statement here makes ZERO sense to me given what I THINK I said. Let me hit this in order.
Absolutely, "sniper" is a description of a role, not a direct comparison to our own forces. But if you actually separate out the Al'Quaeda or allegedly Iranian-trained forces from the general insurgency, you will find that they do have a very high degree of training in what they are doing: sniping while concealed amongst the general populace and using Improvised Explosive Devices, frequently detonated by command. I was in no way referring to the primary resistance of the initial stages of the invasion.
The second paragraph is exactly the opposite of what I THINK I said (mind you, not text, but the point I was trying to get across). What is HAMPERING these people is that they have dramatically sub-par equipment given the opponent they face, but even so have been causing grievous causualties on their opponents, and are willing to PAY for that damage unhesitatingly with their own blood. Their basic skills are a lot higher than most Americans would be willing to give them credit for. Again: this is the hard-core, highly trained terrorist we're discussing, not the local gang member and his posse with their AKs taking out their frustrations in a self-defeating gesture.


On Alphaware, there was a LOT of discussion of that in SR2, Shadowtech IIRC, in the back where they introduced the higher grades. Just because they haven't reprinted the fluff doesn't mean they are now disregarding it, in-universe. And there were rumblings about a new book covering details of cyber maintenance, SOTA upkeep and things of that nature. The "feel" of SR4x is a return to the roots of the system, and I expect to see a lot more on things like this (call it "day to day drek of being a chromed 'runner") soon. There has been plenty of it in the last two editions, and it's very important to the ongoing feel of a campaign, plus it helps keep cyber-bunnies under a little tighter reign, and 'deckers have to put up for the latest gear.
I haven't seen 4a yet, so I was unaware about price changes. If that's the case, the Army MIGHT try to keep it in-house, but then they would have to find a way to lure the highly talented and educated programmers away from the Corps who would pay better so THEY could sell the software at a premium to the Army. If they are "consultants", not actual members of the Army, they will belong to a corp. It's that simple. If not, the moment the little shop opens to do the work for the Army, a mega would swoop in and either buy them or smash them so fast the Army would ask for a Bomb Damage Assesment with a look of awe and respect. Seriously: if you have the skill to program Rating 4 Activesofts, why in the world would you go into the Army when Ares is offering you a better job, and there is NO chance of them making you foot infantry in a pinch, wear a uniform, do PT or work sober?
And maybe it IS per "seat" as you say - like how many users can log on to the network. I have been reading the software rules in Unwired, and I understand what you're driving at. But that would require you to be able to log in to validate your license prior to use. That's workable in peacetime, but in war, that EW problem will be a pain. And you specifically wanted to put "pulling the trigger" on the chip, so now you've got a problem: if I need to validate to activate, and the enemy has enough jamming to take down my comlink, I'm without the 'ware when I need it most. THAT is why I suggested it had to be a 1:1 licensing. For the rear-area stuff, that might make sense. But there is one other consideration: you could pick up a LOT of intel on where people were doing what by looking for where the license requests were coming from. Suddenly you have a surge of license requests for demolitions experts or logistics and support staff along a contested border... see where I'm going? The front line militaries of the world don't think like that. They want it secure, portable and local.
When I mentioned a lawsuit, it was to be descriptive. But last I checked even nations could be taken to international court under international law. That's where the Corp Court comes in. I am sure somebody can come up with the details for me of the mechanics that would hold, but the idea would remain the same.

I can live with that, but nowhere in the literature available have they said they were common enough to be general issue, even in a small number of doses, or to be maintained in any sustained conflict, which your idea would require. Logistics, friend. "An army moves on its stomach", but these day's it's voratious appetite is for bullets, beans, gas, medicines (including your drugs), spares and the 1001 minor things that keep an army going that have to be carted to wherever the fighting is going on. If you're doing raids, out and back, it's less an issue. If you're contemplating an offensive (and an army that can't THREATEN an oponent with invasion can be ignored) you need to worry about logistical concerns... a LOT. I wasn't so much suggestion ADDICTION to the drugs (though I guess I should have) but I meant these people would instantly see the proffit potential for untracable and powerful drugs being issued to them that they OF COURSE! would never expect to need, and would probably already know the people back home to talk to in order to channel them onto the market. There's a reason a convicted drug-addict is going to play merry hell getting a job in a pharmacy. THAT is what I was talking about there. Does it make more sense now what the other part of my reservations are actually about?


Exactly. "Short" endurance measured in hours would be perfectly acceptable if they have a quick "turn-around" to borrow the Air Force's jargon so they could easily get back on station.


OK, maybe to YOU I am nitpicking, but there is a huge real-world difference, and we ARE talking about the same company that originally (and still) produces BattleTechTM, the game of wonderous ablative armor. Some people DON'T realize there's a diference. Most IRL ablatives are designed to absorb heat in huge quantities (see: Apollo heat shield, X-15A-2 white coating), and for lower energy energy weapons could be effective. Reactive armor is almost exclusively effective (unless you use it in an active fashion under precise computer control) against Monroe-effect warheads (High Explosive Anti Tank). They provide little effect against pure high explosives since you're already detonating high explosives against the hull to make them work in the first place; there are stories of the charges saving the vehicle but blowing off antennas, gear, sights, weapons and all kinds of other things on the outside of the vehicle you'd rather NOT lose mid-battle.

SR4 v1.3 P.312:

*nods*
I think that's more or less what a few people indicated. But remember what ... I think it was originally RustedScrapMetal - I am NOT going to wade through this whole thread to be certain *wink* - said about National Guard style forces: with PCA, they can be doing all the dirty humanitarian work MUCH more effectively than their numbers might suggest, and as I suggested, their endurance would be much better in such a role with offensive equipment removed. They would be prime units in SAR disaster relief with their suite of on-board sensors and the protection inherent in their armor. I agree that it would probably wind up two-tiered as you describe generally, though. The modern US Army is already moving in that direction, and might be further along the path if not for the neet to keep so many general infantry boots filled with whomever they can put into them with two simultaneous wars.


Which is another argument for the kind of networked and enhanced light troops for strikes and PCA over conventional armor. Face it: even at 45 mph / 72 kph an Abrams target isn't that hard a target in the open, can't dodge and has a heck of a time ducking for cover. A suit of PCA can protect against all known small arms while allowing it to avoid heavier return fire generally. In fact they're tough enough to MOUNT a lot of that wicked firepower, and it's very easy to fully network them. But then it will come back to education and training.

Why the hell would you have snipers in the future? Your infantry squad can have dozens of autonomous mobile flying small platforms for free - if you need snipers, you just send in the hunter killer drones.

We have drones in 2009 that can loiter undetected for days then bring down death without warning. And Osama Bin Laden is still alive. So are a lot of other hard targets. A sniper and her spotter can get in and watch through human eyes and wait for a target to emerge, then take their shot, or call in the strike. Future badguys will have the ability to determine if there is a "threatening" drone around, and by that, I mean one big enough to carry the firepower and have the range to wait for them. But a sniper in their element... well, that's something else entirely. Those little flying killer drones are extremely succeptible to anything resembling point defense. So now we're back to the aimed cold bore long range shot.

I notice a sniper didn't get them either. Just saying.



Wait what? Future drones are really small and can be painted in super effective camo. Why do snipers have some sort of ninja ability to evade detection and stealth drones don't?

Also, what point defense actually in the books are you going to shoot at drones with?

Karenshara:
Thanks for the cite, I missed that bit on Ex ammo (though you need to double check your errata as Ex has been +1DV, and +1DV/-1AP for ExEx errataed for a long time.
I wasn't talking about SLAP vs. APDS (SLAP is also bloody inaccurate so it's only really usefull in MG's). Just that we're talking shadowrun, not reality here.

I really don't know what else there is to say... I've tried to make my case, I don't think I've convinced you. And I'm not wholly convinced that the military is nothing except runner grade professionals as some seem to think.


Everyone:
I also don't see combat drugs getting used that much except under duress. Check the grunts out once under it under training to see how they react to it (familiarize them with it like they do CS gas)... then only dose them when they're in a pitched battle. (I see a grunt getting maybe some cram(+1rea, +1IP), or maybe some long haul (stay awake for 4 days). The reason being... how many combats do you expect your basic level grunt to survive. If they can survive the first say 5... they're a good candidate for a cyber upgrade as a blooded veteran combatant. An extra IP in a combat situation is a HUGE advantage and well worth the 20Y or so a dose, especially if carefully administered by a biomonitor. If you don't expect them to survive their first say 10 battles.. is it really worth the 10k for cyber as opposed to the 200Y for drugs?


Cthulthudreams:
Look at the price for that coating of paint... it ain't cheap.
Any drone that's actually up and flying has a big bullseye painted on it unless it's flying NOE... and if it's flying NOE it's not going to do you much good for wide area survellance.

Now suddenly you go from no grunts whatsoever... to grunts each w/ a ton of flying drones...

Here's primary roles I see for drones.
Pack Mule: Somethings got to hump the extra ammo and supplies
Supply Mule: Great way to distribute airdrop supplies to units in the field. (Kull aerial supply drone)
Heavy Weapons platform: Why use a team to pack the crew served weapon when you can stuff it on a single drone.
Indirect Support: extention of heavy weapons... instead of a crew served mortar, a self-propelled mortar which can fire and scoot to a new position to avoid counterbattery.
Secure Comms: It's prohibitive to put it everywhere, but it's usefull to have something w/ a sat link, and act as a local comms relay
Medical: Valkyrie Module to stuff your wounded into, if you care that much about them.

In a heavy EW environment, a lot of those drones are probably going to be on laser link, or even have fiber run to them.

A lot of those drones can't stand up to the firepower or armor presented by a heavy weapons mount or the much more extended range capability of an actual vehicle mount (just a simple autocannon or cannon like on p124 of arsenal). That's even if you upgrade their armor mind you.