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BlueMax
QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ May 23 2009, 08:26 AM) *
For a start, all the Megas accept Nuyen. It is probably in the contracts they sign when they become members of the CC (and you have to accept that they sign contracts when they become members). The Megas are people you can buy pretty much any product on the planet from. You can use Nuyen, therefore, to satisfy almost every need that exists. If that isn't enough to support the Nuyen in your opinion, then no mere Government is.

If the most powerful economic, political and social entities in the game world aren't enough to float a currency then I wonder if we're playing the same game at all. What fiat is stronger than massive transglobal corporations that manipulate entire continents? Am I to believe a body that is constrained to a powerbase with an area less than the size of the Chinese Empire at its height is more powerful?


The Corporate Court could amass great power. Could. The problem is that it operates like the UN, very little gets done. Also, said contracts are not that well enforced from my understanding, nor do these contracts cover any depth. What body enforces the will of the CC over my attempted expenditure of Nuyen? How do engage a corporation in related litagation? Nothing and I don't. Even if corp #1 were to bring the issue up, if corps 2,7,8,9 don't care nothing happens.

Acceptance is only a small portion of what I would need in a Fiat Currency. Value is what I would need most of all. Who signs (prints) nuyen? Is it a fixed currency?

This is all under the assumption the Corporate Court values the Nuyen and would like to see it flourish. As for playing the same game, I think it hinges on whether or not we see the CC wanting to empower currency. I don't think they would. From my POV, the CC isn't out to create a better world. I don't want CC as a World Government, a powerful cabal sure, but not a government.

If the Nuyen is backed by Japan, meh. Ill take cogerand first.


BlueMax

BlueMax
Ancient History
I'm just going to restate that many of these questions have answers in the upcoming Corp Guide.
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (Method @ May 22 2009, 11:41 PM) *
Cool thanks. I found the entire essay here if anyone else is interested.


Be aware that he has since gone back on all those positions and has stated that a gold standard would have no advantages 3 years ago as opposed to 40 years and a noble prize ago.

As for the topic: Yes, as governments are less stable than a house of fricking cards, a gold backed currency makes sense in shadowrun. However, there is a further problem - a backed currency as opposed to actual coins requires someone you can trust to hold the gold.

But there is no-one to trust in shadowrun as everyone is literally allergic to transparency.

So a gold backed currency is completely infesible for the same reason a fiat currency is. So either you have to go back to handing gold coins around - which won't work - or a fiat currency would make sense, and it has to be backed by the corporate court. Intrestingly, that means the court itself has to have sizeable reserves, and also regularly demand payment (for something) in nuyens. Probably by taxing its members or something.
BlueMax
QUOTE (Ancient History @ May 23 2009, 08:41 AM) *
I'm just going to restate that many of these questions have answers in the upcoming Corp Guide.


Kool. This is actually a topic of discussion at our table, and its why I may be a bit too active here.
We don't spend game time on it but as we eat and chat, some of us love to debate Fantasy monetary policy. BTW one of the most brilliant at the table agrees with Heath, in that the Corps(through their banks) would support a fiat currency. He and I go at it all the time.

Sorry.

BlueMax
/doesn't want to hear about glorious future books
// wants to hold them.
/// especially a critters book. really really want.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ May 23 2009, 06:59 PM) *
So a gold backed currency is completely infesible for the same reason a fiat currency is. So either you have to go back to handing gold coins around - which won't work - or a fiat currency would make sense, and it has to be backed by the corporate court. Intrestingly, that means the court itself has to have sizeable reserves, and also regularly demand payment (for something) in nuyens. Probably by taxing its members or something.

maybe they have a share in the big corps, and take it out as dividends?
Nath
Friedrich Hayek and Murray Rothbard would be the guys to read at this point, rather than Greenspan (well, if you take a look at Rothbard's work, the so-called anarcho-capitalism, the Corporate Court should enforce his birthday as a holiday all over the world). Free banking theory precisely claims states monopoly over currency issue is a Bad Thing.
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (BlueMax @ May 23 2009, 05:39 PM) *
Acceptance is only a small portion of what I would need in a Fiat Currency. Value is what I would need most of all. Who signs (prints) nuyen? Is it a fixed currency?

This is all under the assumption the Corporate Court values the Nuyen and would like to see it flourish. As for playing the same game, I think it hinges on whether or not we see the CC wanting to empower currency. I don't think they would. From my POV, the CC isn't out to create a better world. I don't want CC as a World Government, a powerful cabal sure, but not a government.

Acceptance is value. You can use Nuyen to purchase some fraction of the wealth of every megacorp and that wealth is growing. More importantly (because Megas have an incentive to offer goods in your local currency if it nets them more profit) you can use your Nuyen anywhere in the world without needing to care about what the exchange rates are. If you go to sleep in Seattle and wake up in Brussels you can still use your Nuyen without exchange.

Even if the Megas take your cash in the local currency they're going to exchange some of it for Nuyen at some point because they want to use it to buy goods and services from a foreign corporation, or another division (if the Mega requires internal trade to be in Nuyen). If it's public that the Megas operate in Nuyen then people will buy into Nuyen expecting the value of the Nuyen to increase relative to local currencies over time. That increases the value of holding Nuyen because people want to hold it for future exchange back into local currencies at a higher value.

As for who prosecutes breaches of contract? That's like the Religious Right's inability to understand how you can derive laws and standards from the expectation of reciprocity. There are only ten Megas and if none of the other Megas are willing to give you the time of day then something like 75% or more of your trade is gone. You live and die on the good will of your peers. You do not breach the contract unless more than half the others do it.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Nath @ May 23 2009, 08:45 PM) *
Friedrich Hayek and Murray Rothbard would be the guys to read at this point, rather than Greenspan (well, if you take a look at Rothbard's work, the so-called anarcho-capitalism, the Corporate Court should enforce his birthday as a holiday all over the world). Free banking theory precisely claims states monopoly over currency issue is a Bad Thing.

sounds a bit like what i understood USA had until the federal reserve got created to deal with some issues with the individual private banks...
BlueMax
QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ May 23 2009, 11:10 AM) *
Acceptance is value. You can use Nuyen to purchase some fraction of the wealth of every megacorp and that wealth is growing. More importantly (because Megas have an incentive to offer goods in your local currency if it nets them more profit) you can use your Nuyen anywhere in the world without needing to care about what the exchange rates are. If you go to sleep in Seattle and wake up in Brussels you can still use your Nuyen without exchange.

Even if the Megas take your cash in the local currency they're going to exchange some of it for Nuyen at some point because they want to use it to buy goods and services from a foreign corporation, or another division (if the Mega requires internal trade to be in Nuyen). If it's public that the Megas operate in Nuyen then people will buy into Nuyen expecting the value of the Nuyen to increase relative to local currencies over time. That increases the value of holding Nuyen because people want to hold it for future exchange back into local currencies at a higher value.

As for who prosecutes breaches of contract? That's like the Religious Right's inability to understand how you can derive laws and standards from the expectation of reciprocity. There are only ten Megas and if none of the other Megas are willing to give you the time of day then something like 75% or more of your trade is gone. You live and die on the good will of your peers. You do not breach the contract unless more than half the others do it.



This is fairly close to the argument given in my garage by my opposition. The argument holds valid if the assumptions are accurate. While not listed, and dear god this isnt a challenge to list them, odds are our assumptions differ.

<declaration of how I view the world, not commandment on how anyone else should. These are my assumptions>
I always imagine Megacorps as feudal kingdoms. Internal trade uses corp scrip and this is required for management purposes. Between fiefdoms, errr corporations, its a hell of a lot easier to trade with monetary unit. I get monetary units, they make things easy. However, divisions, subsidiaries and so on , would be guided to make real gains: materials, real estate, and slalves^H^H^H^H^H^H populace, and not to garner nuyen. Fiat currency does not have any inherent value.
</dedclaration>

<grey area>
Your statement regarding the goodwill of peers is something with which I disagree. If it were toned down to prosper or suffer, maybe. If this is a world where you can take land and resources by force without the rest of the world doing anything about it, a corporation can expand by ill will. As long as they don't piss off too many at once, or as long as they play the political game well, there is nothing to stop them. I assume with all the takeovers, Shadowrun is a dynamic world and not a regulated world. Even socio-economic pressure. Or at least I hope it still open to radical change and adventure
</grey area>

I know my assumptions are already wrong for Fourth Edition. Four Edition presents a market with liquidity, which would not exist in the above. But the current state does not present a combination of Megacorps and fiscal governance that would create such a market. While not eagerly, I do await the explanations in the upcoming book Ancient History mentioned.

BlueMax
Ancient History
Don't await it too eagerly, it was written by the same freelancer that though Wuxbux were a great idea once upon a time.
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ May 23 2009, 12:29 PM) *
maybe they have a share in the big corps, and take it out as dividends?



That would definitely work. It would also introduce a huge 'share price bump' when a megacorp becomes a CC member as the corp or the CC tries to buy enough shares in it to be compliant. Conversely, that may not be enough money, so maybe it levies it on ecveryone. beats me.
hobgoblin
or the shares could be a payment/gift so to get a seat, or something...
Cthulhudreams
Yeah, but as the CC doesn't own its own shares, that it would need to buy them from other people as I said.

I guess as you point out they could also issue shares, resulting in a massive share price collapse, but either works. Maybe all mega corps are legally bound to issue all dividends in nuyen. Or something. God knows.
Heath Robinson
You're forgetting that corps can just issue new shares and hand them out to people.

The share price would increase when rumours of a corp becoming a member of the CC went around, primarily because it's a good thing for the long term profitability of that corp. Since expectations of future dividends have increased so too will the share price as people bid up the price on shares.
Nath
When a megacorporation becomes a Corporate Court member, it gets one single share in the Zurich-Orbital Gemeinshaft Bank (so, each of those share currently represents 10%). It all depends on the Zurich-Orbital Gemeinshaft Bank shareholders' liability.
FrankTrollman
The books are frankly incredibly vague as to what digital currency is and how it works. Many of the books talk blithely about hacking indiidual credsticks to have more money in them as if the little display on the stick was the actual amount of money on it. And that makes no damn sense at all.

My own matrix house rules has a reasonably consistent and workable theory of digital currency. It's Here, and that's what I use.

-Frank
Zormal
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ May 24 2009, 11:35 PM) *
My own matrix house rules has a reasonably consistent and workable theory of digital currency. It's Here, and that's what I use.

-Frank

Cool. I'll have to read that through.

Good to see you back.
Marshwiggle
I like the touch of low capacity data lines for nuyen verification there.

My thoughts here mostly aren't completely original - they come from various SR 2 and 3 player musings on the issue, mostly my own. This isn't the only way nuyen could work, but I do think it is important that there be an explanation, at least for games with multiple layers, subterfuge, and so on. It might not be fully appropriate for SR4, and it might have holes in it.

Anyway, here goes.

There are two basic ways to spend nuyen (so not counting corp scrip, gold, bullets, whatever)

First - the kind which is nearly perfectly verifiable and reliable. It is linked to a particular ID, and one or more central banks know that that particular nuyen is linked to that particular ID. Thus, for it to be spent, the ID has to pass a reader appropriate to the size of the transaction (and multiple smaller transactions with lower verification level would easily be flagged by the bank). The receiver of the money, before accepting the transfer, sends a Matrix message to the bank which issued the nuyen, saying "This ID, verified by place of business X at this level, wishes to transfer the following nuyen to us." The receiver would also have to verify its own identity with the bank. Then the bank would send back a message saying "yes, the sender of those nuyen does have the rights to them, so we are now transferring them to you". For truly substantial transactions, there would also be Matrix dialogue between the bank and the sender of the nuyen, more or less so that if someone is somehow impersonating the sender, the sender is informed before the transaction is finished and can stop the process.

This process can be subverted, but unless you can crack the systems of the bank (which can afford to have arbitrarily good security, and probably has set things up so that you would have to crack multiple banks at once), to subvert the system you would have to know which nuyen someone had, then impersonate them at a level appropriate to the level of nuyen you wanted to steal from them. Or, you would have to impersonate the receiver, which is always going to require a very high level of verification - and you would still need to know which nuyen the sender had.

The twelve year old hacker can still get free pizza - all that takes is changing the delivery address on a perfectly valid pizza order, paid for perfectly legitimately. But that wasn't a failure of the nuyen system, that was a failure of the pizza company, for which the guy who didn't get his pizza is going to hold them accountable, not the banks.


Then, there is the second type of nuyen exchange, which is intentionally less secure. Anyone owning the first, secure, kind of nuyen can (through a bank) transfer their nuyen not to some business or other legitimate nuyen receiver, but to an anonymous credstick. The bank now records these nuyen as belonging to this anonymous credstick, which pretty much just contains a list of the nuyen. The first person who knows the numbers of those nuyen to attempt to transfer those nuyen back to a secure account can do so. Alternatively, anyone can quickly verify with a simple Matrix query requiring no ID that the numbers of the unsecure nuyen he holds are in fact real unsecure nuyen (and thus that he could, if he acted right them, become their rightful sole owners). Lastly, anyone who holds unsecure nuyen can (without ID) exchange them by Matrix transaction with their originating bank, destroying them in exchange for new, different nuyen. Thus, someone paid in unsecure nuyen can easily become their new sole owner, at least until someone gets access to the numbers of those nuyen by stealing/hacking his unsecured credstick, or listening to the verification or exchange transaction, or however else you can think of. Thus, the transactions aren't really secure. It would be up to the GM how anonymous they were too - the question is whether the banks keep their swaps of unsecured nuyen numbers confidential. I am inclined to believe that they have a policy of 100% confidentiality.

In practice, the Johnson pays you by handing you a credstick with the numbers of some unsecured nuyen. You can check on the nuyen whenever you want (assuming you have secure enough matrix access) and make them your own (insofar as you now have numbers for the nuyen that no-one else does). If you want to pay someone, you give them the numbers of some of those nuyen, and they convert them as they please.

This isn't a perfect system, but it seems to work well enough to make most forms of subversion easier than messing with the nuyen system directly.


kzt
The idea that you can "check on the owner" is just a bad idea. I'll just have 6000 toasters continually looking for "unclaimed nuyen" 24x7x365. And it also allows random people to track cashflow of megacorps.

And it isn't untraceable, not even close. The bank knows the who put the money in the stick, they know who took the money out of the stick as they have to verify that the money is still "unclaimed". It's about as anonymous as the Johnson who requires you to fill out an IRS form 8300 in order to pick up your suitcase of cash after a hit.
Marshwiggle
You just need a trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion more possible nuyen numbers than actual nuyen, so that it doesn't matter how many toasters there are out there doing it, you've got more chance of a gold meteorite landing on your car than you do of finding free nuyen. Given how little storage space a single number takes, that isn't really hard.

And yes, the bank would have records of where the nuyen went. Strictly, it wouldn't directly know who was paid, just where that nuyen was later spent, but it isn't totally anonymous. The question is whether the bank gives those records out. If you're worried about the bank giving out the records, well, it's time to invest in some old fashioned money laundering. That is the age old solution to being paid in potentially trackable ways for engaging in criminal activities. The good thing though is that the Johnson might not want the bank to know either - the bank can trace the money backwards as well as forwards, and that information could be used against the Johnson, unless the Johnson keeps the whole transaction strictly off the books - at which point it is pretty much anonymous.
kzt
The issues essentially boil down to 6 issues

1) How can you have anonymous transfers of money that doesn’t allow you to create money?
2) How can a merchant verify that someone has money in the account they are using?
3) How can a merchant verify that someone is authorized to spend money from a given account? Are they who they say they are?
4) Can the person paying ensure that the money they transfer goes to who they want it to go to?
5) How can we prevent the person receiving the payment from endlessly cycling the transaction to drain all the money from the account?
6) How can a 3rd party (like a bank) fairly handle complaints from either party and verify what really happened?

SR pretty much doesn't seem to have any decent explanation of anything but number 3. Mostly because whoever put the "system" together didn't seem to consider the idea that people who are playing criminals might want to engage in fraud in addition to robbery and murder. And that whoever put together the cryptography rules didn't have the foggiest idea what cryptography is really used for.

I don't see how to handle this other than rewrite several chapters in the book or to assume it just works using your powers of doublethink.
Ancient History
QUOTE (kzt @ May 25 2009, 03:36 AM) *
1) How can you have anonymous transfers of money that doesn’t allow you to create money?

You deal in something other than electronic currencies. For example, if you bought three pounds of gold and paid for something with that (or a stock certificate, bond, etc.)

QUOTE
2) How can a merchant verify that someone has money in the account they are using?

Like accounts today, if they don't, an "insufficient funds" flag will go up.

QUOTE
3) How can a merchant verify that someone is authorized to spend money from a given account? Are they who they say they are?

Not the merchant's problem, that's between the individual and the bank - and is done using passcodes and biometrics.

QUOTE
4) Can the person paying ensure that the money they transfer goes to who they want it to go to?

Transactions are reasonably secure.

QUOTE
5) How can we prevent the person receiving the payment from endlessly cycling the transaction to drain all the money from the account?

Double handshake. That is, each new transaction would require a new authorization.

QUOTE
6) How can a 3rd party (like a bank) fairly handle complaints from either party and verify what really happened?

They both check their records and solicit any additional records as necessary.

Y'know, all of these questions could be asked (and answered) of modern banking.

QUOTE
SR pretty much doesn't seem to have any decent explanation of anything but number 3. Mostly because whoever put the "system" together didn't seem to consider the idea that people who are playing criminals might want to engage in fraud in addition to robbery and murder.

Not true. We addressed elements of forgery in Unwired, and elements of fraud will be addressed in Vice.

QUOTE
And that whoever put together the cryptography rules didn't have the foggiest idea what cryptography is really used for.

Command clusterfuck when you get down to it. Realistic cryptography would make certain elements of the game extremely unplayable with the Decrypt program as written.

"Sorry Bill, but it would take you longer than the lifetime of the universe to crack that code. Too bad."

Not gonna lie to you. The idea of a new mathematical technique that made decryption suddenly easy was an attempt to cover. Stranger things have happened in the history of the world (and yes, I'm well aware that there are encryption techniques that are mathematically proven to be unbreakable; if you want to use one-time pads in your game, don't let me stop you).

QUOTE
I don't see how to handle this other than rewrite several chapters in the book or to assume it just works using your powers of doublethink.

Thoughtcrime. Stop.
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE
You deal in something other than electronic currencies. For example, if you bought three pounds of gold and paid for something with that (or a stock certificate, bond, etc.)


But your answer to question 1 is flawed: People in SR do deal in electronic currencies anonymously.

QUOTE
Like accounts today, if they don't, an "insufficient funds" flag will go up.


But if I've engineered my credstick to just say it has enough money and give it to you (when, of course I don't) this protection won't reallllyyy work.
Ancient History
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ May 25 2009, 04:14 AM) *
But your answer to question 1 is flawed: People in SR do deal in electronic currencies anonymously.

Only by breaking the datatrail by transferring them into a format that is inherently untraceable as long as you don't spend them (i.e. credsticks). In this case, credsticks are as useful as a lump of gold.

QUOTE
But if I've engineered my credstick to just say it has enough money and give it to you (when, of course I don't) this protection won't reallllyyy work.

Caveat emptor. Or "always check the money." Might be little green pieces of paper, might be forged nuyen. Ya never can tell.
Cthulhudreams
What I don't get is how A and B can be true at the same time

either 1) Transactions with cred-stick-ified nuyen are logged and checked with some sort of third party. In which case you cannot deal ananoymously, but you can check the money

2) Transactions with cred-stick-ified nuyen are not checked with a third party, in which case you can spew out the money ago go.

If I can make nuyen into gold by cred-stick-ifying it, I can make unlimited lumps of gold by just duplicating credsticks onto each other. It's just not obvious what mechanism there is for both to be true.

I'm receptive to being wrong, but I'm not sure what it is. (The: Each nuyen is a unique and special snowflake doesn't work either. Because the world turns on digital signatures, and those are the product of encryption, which doesn't work, I can just issue legit nuyen with new numbers.)

You could of course have the bank check each certified credstick nuyten deposited with it whenever money gets taken off a credstick, but this makes the forgery rules bogus - because the bank would immediately notice every time. It would also give you a crystal clear record of who got the money (Okay, so Ares removed money onto a credstick, and then those same dollars turned up in the hands of Mr Green, who we know is also a shadowrunner, and in the mean time Mr Green was spotted near an Horizon installation that.. you get the picture.
kzt
Yup. And the answer to how banks securely work today it is partially/largely encryption.
Cthulhudreams
Perversely, I think actual cash would be more secure - anti forgery features would be pretty advanced in 2080, and you could probably make things that would stand up to being nanotech manufactured.
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (kzt @ May 25 2009, 04:36 AM) *
1) How can you have anonymous transfers of money that doesn’t allow you to create money?
2) How can a merchant verify that someone has money in the account they are using?
3) How can a merchant verify that someone is authorized to spend money from a given account? Are they who they say they are?
4) Can the person paying ensure that the money they transfer goes to who they want it to go to?
5) How can we prevent the person receiving the payment from endlessly cycling the transaction to drain all the money from the account?
6) How can a 3rd party (like a bank) fairly handle complaints from either party and verify what really happened?


For a proposed database-only system where Cert Credsticks contain asymmetric keys attached to a Zero-Disclosure account you get the following answers:

  1. Accounts unattached to any ID, assumption of Cert Credsticks being bought by lackeys, laundering systems assumed, encrypted transaction records. Balance unencrypted.
  2. Query the nearest bank database (there are multiple synchronised copies to reduce risks of catastrophic failure) to check if it has enough money.
  3. They have access to the private key attached to the account, which is protected using defensive hardware design.
  4. Can you do that today? I ask the bank I'm giving money to whether the account holder is my friend and they tell me that I'm not allowed to do this. Corps will have payment systems built into whatever AR system they're using and will use alternative channels to communicate verification information if necessary. You're already seeing this kind of thing today.
  5. Payer authentes the transaction, must be done over secured link using the asymmetric encryption - access to the private key is the best possible guarantee of ownership of the account.
  6. Since everything is done on their servers, they can just perform a reverse transaction. Slightly more complex if the transaction is done between banks, but ultimately they'll have business agreements to enable it all. You'll have to give a reason and they'll try to verify it. Is it really all that different from today?


Cert Credstick providers will encrypt your transaction records with the accounts Public Key so that only the credstick possessor can read them, ever (for a given value of "ever"). You can't easily prove anything about the transactions into and out of this account. In fact, with at least one intermediary transfer between accounts on these services you cannot connect money heading into and out of these banks. However, 0 disclosure accounts cannot support transaction reversal in any secure way. It's something that people dealing with you will know and be alerted to. People in the Shadows know this and just deal with it.

Why do Corps let this situation go? Because Damien Knight works this way. Because Shadowrunners need payments. Because Inazo Aneki was a paranoid bastard. Because higher-ups need to pay for hookers without their wives knowing from their financial records. Why do countries? Because the Megas are above disclosure laws.


For non-cert accounts they can do things like using Biometric cryptohashes for the Private Key. Where the Biometric sensors are secure kinds (i.e. none of the stupid fingeprint lifting off the actual detector). You can also include PINs or passwords as an extra layer of security.


Edit: I should point out that reversing a transaction requires reading the transaction records to verify the transaction actually occured. That's why I used it as an example. For encrypted transaction records this is impossible because they don't have the key to decrypt the records. However, they can totally disclose the record ciphertext without much worry. They won't, because infinite monkeys, but it's safe to do it.
Cthulhudreams
The biggest problem with 1) is that you have to actually pay the money in with an ID - and if Joe from Ares accounts department pays in 2 million nuyen from his private account, thats pretty much the same as if Ares just did it.

So its not particularly anomyous - particularly because they have to fess this up to another organisation - whhich holds the database.

If Ares holds the database, it isn't anonymous because Ares knows exactly who did what with whom then. So as the recipient, yeah, you may as well have just been paid in Ares corp script.
Heath Robinson
Assumption of laundering. When both ends of a transaction involve Zero Disclosure policy providers that encrypt the transaction records using the Private Key of the Asymmetric Key Pair then no-one outside the owners of the Private Keys for the accounts involved can prove the transaction ever took place. The providers can easily provide systems that only provide balance information that updates on certain time schedules to ensure that no-one can perform a traffic analysis attack assuming sufficient movement. This is probably a 5 minute boundary system and they synch multiple databases before the update to ensure that sufficient "noise" traffic is included in the information provided by any update.

With a laundering situation you pay a legitimate front business some money for an inconspicuous purchase, and they then transfer it through a few of these and then onto a stick of your choosing ("paying" people that don't exist except in the SIN database for doing work that they never did). They take their cut along the way. You now have Nuyen that no-one can connect to your stick. They use multiple (random number) rounds of distributed transactions to ensure that nobody can ever definitively link your account as the end recipient if they possess one of the sticks involved in the ring. They cycle sticks into and out of the laundering system to ensure that you can't use past data to ID a unique account entry.

They do this honestly because the Shadows works on reputation, like any business. If they stiffed anyone then their name is mud.


I may also have updated details whilst you're writing your post. Encrypted transaction records form a major part of the guarantee of anonymity. I only really put that in the answer to 1 when I felt secure in the system I drafted. The actual weakness is that the anonymous parts of the system have no answer to 6. That's just accepted as part of doing business in the Shadows - you can't get help from a third party.

I mean, it's impossible to let a third party check transactions whilst also making it impossible to disclose the identity of transactors. If they can look at records then they can trace nuyen trails backwards arbitrary distances. Anonymity requires transactions be safe from the people who hold the records as well as everyone else.
Cthulhudreams
Sure, but the only problem is that the only people big enough to run the secure database you posit are also run highly illegal secret wars against each other all the time.

If Ares owns the database, they know who pays in. While they can provide a system that cannot be attacked externally, they are literally the man in the middle and have every reason to want to know what is going on.

QUOTE
Encrypted transaction records form a major part of the guarantee of anonymity.


There is no encryption in shadowrun that can resist sustained attack. And by sustained I mean 5, 10 minutes. Given that, there is no anonymity, even ignoring the MitM attack, so we have just lost the primary condition.
kzt
QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ May 24 2009, 11:11 PM) *
I mean, it's impossible to let a third party check transactions whilst also making it impossible to disclose the identity of transactors. If they can look at records then they can trace nuyen trails backwards arbitrary distances. Anonymity requires transactions be safe from the people who hold the records as well as everyone else.

True. But it's essential for routine transactions. If I can't complain effectively that I didn't buy the car that someone ordered delivered to a city I've never been using my money there is a show-stopping issue being ignored.

The reliance on cryptography that doesn't work is the major issue with your idea. Plus the minor detail that being in the chain of people who paid for blowing up a 24 billion system belonging to SK means you are going to get tortured to death as part of the un-onioing process. Rubber hose cryptographic analysis is NOT something that you want to encourage as a payment processor.
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (kzt @ May 25 2009, 07:27 AM) *
True. But it's essential for routine transactions. If I can't complain effectively that I didn't buy the car that someone ordered delivered to a city I've never been using my money there is a show-stopping issue being ignored.

The reliance on cryptography that doesn't work is the major issue with your idea. Plus the minor detail that being in the chain of people who paid for blowing up a 24 billion system belonging to SK means you are going to get tortured to death as part of the un-onioing process. Rubber hose cryptographic analysis is NOT something that you want to encourage as a payment processor.


The failure of criteria 6 only applies for the Zero Disclosure segment of the system. Normally the banks can read your transaction history and perform reverse transactions. If it's a 0D account then you've waived that option in exchange for guarantees that nobody except yourself will ever be able to verify your transactions.

I don't think this is a major flaw of the system. It's not for everyone because, well, not everyone lives in a world where Corps are hunting you to pay you back for the last time you did wetwork on their operatives. Normal people let the corps see their account history and are happy when it lets them cancel fraudulent charges. Joe Shadowrunner doesn't and can't expect for any cheery service representative to help him when George Mafia has taken his money and not given him his fucking car. But George Mafia needs to eat, and to eat he needs other people to trust him.


Dramatic Encryption. Because the game demands it.

QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ May 25 2009, 07:24 AM) *
Sure, but the only problem is that the only people big enough to run the secure database you posit are also run highly illegal secret wars against each other all the time.

If Ares owns the database, they know who pays in. While they can provide a system that cannot be attacked externally, they are literally the man in the middle and have every reason to want to know what is going on.



There is no encryption in shadowrun that can resist sustained attack. And by sustained I mean 5, 10 minutes. Given that, there is no anonymity, even ignoring the MitM attack, so we have just lost the primary condition.


If Ares runs a MitM attack on your accounts then you stop using Ares. They lose a stream of revenue and Damien Knight is very annoyed because there are copies of his hookers'n'blow accounts that can be hacked. Like, annoyed enough to fire the entire department involved and trash their reputations forever.


Like I just said. Dramatic Encryption. Because, seriously, it's necessary. Handwaving is good when the rules are crap in a way that precludes the game working at all.
Cthulhudreams
I think we are all arguing the same thing then - my point of view is that the rules make the background impossible.

You are proposing an alternative set of rules (with some people arbitrarily having strong encryption for no reason) which sacrifices university consistency to make something else functional. Which is fine, but that is an arbitrary rule you are making up to solve a problem, which needs to be clearly acknowledged.


QUOTE
If Ares runs a MitM attack on your accounts then you stop using Ares. They lose a stream of revenue and Damien Knight is very annoyed because there are copies of his hookers'n'blow accounts that can be hacked. Like, annoyed enough to fire the entire department involved and trash their reputations forever.


You misunderestimate me. In this world, the megacorps ARE the financial institutions. The very guys you are trying to hide from are the only ones that also broker transactions. They man in the middle everything you do, because they are you banker. They are your broker. They are in the man in the middle. They own the database. They own the infrastructure. They process the money. They have the 'coins'

Where are you going to take your data away from ares? To some other corp - they'll be the ones doing it instead. You have to give it all to someone.
kzt
And each mega is in a stronger position to demand things from non-megas than the US justice department is to demand things from UBS. The senior executives of UBS can be pretty confident that Obama won't have them methodically murdered if they don't give up tax records, but would the head of a 6th world bank feel so confident about Juan Atzcapotzalco when Aztechnology wants account histories and transaction logs?
Chrysalis
Reading through this thread all I could think of was how unbelievably nitpicky this is.

When I swipe my card at the store, on the bus, or in the cash machine I do not know how it works. Only that it does.

Nonetheless I wish that there are real assurances that if I leave my card on the counter, or is cloned by the clerk, that I can get my money back.

I do not see cred sticks having any money on them. They are simply verification tools for a letter of credit from a bank. The best analogy is an account with say 10,000 nuyen that can be accessed when you hold the credit stick. You can clone a credit stick, but you can't clone the money in the account since it does not reside on credit stick, only the verification tool resides on the credit stick. Worse situation? Because of cloned credit sticks, the credit stick and all its copies, are cancelled and the left-over money is returned to the account holder.

Once the credstick account is empty or is inactive for a set period of time (say three months), the bank closes the account. Any left over money is recycled back to the bank.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Chrysalis)
Reading through this thread all I could think of was how unbelievably nitpicky this is.

When I swipe my card at the store, on the bus, or in the cash machine I do not know how it works. Only that it does.


Yeah. But you're not a career computer criminal. Some of the characters in a Shadowrunner team are. They are getting new identities on a weekly basis, breaking computer systems and encryption for a living, and lying to the system just to stay alive. So the question of "Why don't they fake credit card payments and live like kings?" is a damn good question. And the stuff spewed in Unwired has no answer for that.

Shadowrunners need to be able to get an answer to how the credit system works because committing fraud on that system is their life's work. And the answers given by the book, heck the answers given personally by Ancient History on this thread, are wholly unsatisfactory. As long as I'm allowed to carry around a digital imprint that is "like gold" and transferable in an untraceable way, I can just copy it and double my money. And once that happens, Shadowrunners don't need to run the shadows. And while they are relaxing on the beaches of Ibiza having crazy sex parties, the world financial system will collapse under the crushing weight of an absence of confidence.

-Frank
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ May 25 2009, 07:51 AM) *
I think we are all arguing the same thing then - my point of view is that the rules make the background impossible.

You are proposing an alternative set of rules (with some people arbitrarily having strong encryption for no reason) which sacrifices university consistency to make something else functional. Which is fine, but that is an arbitrary rule you are making up to solve a problem, which needs to be clearly acknowledged.




You misunderestimate me. In this world, the megacorps ARE the financial institutions. The very guys you are trying to hide from are the only ones that also broker transactions. They man in the middle everything you do, because they are you banker. They are your broker. They are in the man in the middle. They own the database. They own the infrastructure. They process the money. They have the 'coins'

Where are you going to take your data away from ares? To some other corp - they'll be the ones doing it instead. You have to give it all to someone.

Arbitrary madeup rules? It's in Unwired under the Encryption section (albeit Optional instead of fully included). You could also make it 24hr Encryption at Rating 6 if you want to highlight the absurdity of the rules. However, seriously, you want the Hacker to actually play the game instead of just sitting around trying to crack someone's accounts to get their moneys, so you tell the Hacker that the encryption is arbitrarily hard and he just says "Okay, I understand that we play this game to do what the game says on the tin." Or he's an egomaniac asshole and you dump him from the group for that.


I've given two good reasons why Megas would not MitM their anonymous segment, and they don't need to MitM the non-anonymous segment. The non-anonymous segment lets them look at their transaction history. It's easier to remove the segment where I explain why and just ask you a simple question. Are the Megas organisations with motivations that involve profit somewhere, or are they Ocelot in this comic?


QUOTE (kzt @ May 25 2009, 08:04 AM) *
And each mega is in a stronger position to demand things from non-megas than the US justice department is to demand things from UBS. The senior executives of UBS can be pretty confident that Obama won't have them methodically murdered if they don't give up tax records, but would the head of a 6th world bank feel so confident about Juan Atzcapotzalco when Aztechnology wants account histories and transaction logs?

The Megas run the system. That's why it's permitted when most governments hate the idea of untracable accounts. The Megas obey no laws they don't actually consent to. They only consent to laws when they see a profit from the consent. They get more money by running this system, because it taps a market that isn't tapped when you've got Ocelot in this comic running the banking system.

And the UCAS government can't touch them for it. That makes the UCAS government so very angry. But they can't do a thing. They've no legal jurisdiction.
Cthulhudreams
Why wouldn't the megas MitM their segement? It makes perfect sense. If someone blew you up real good you want to know about that. If someone just paid someone else to blow up Horizon, you want to know about that too. Even if all that is done with the data is that its dumped into a big datamining application which you don't tell anyone about, you'd still do exactly that.

Heck, I'd set fire to my profit margin just so that I knew most or all of the data about covert payments to terrorists was being funnelled through my banking arms - then I know who is getting blowed up by who and that is worth a stack of cash - if the production facility for Horizon widgets is going to get shot up, having my own widget factor staffed up to run overtime is looking good - even if it was a pack of ecomentalists that blew up Horizon, I can still benefit, a lot.

Also if I can work out why the ecomentalists are pissed off with Horizon, hey, now I know who they are using to illegally channel money and firearms to terrorists. If they'll keep shooting at Horizon, maybe I'll give them some guns. And if someone is funnelling money to people shooting at me, I can have it quitely arranged for them to have a traffic accident.
Heath Robinson
To begin with, you've got around 10% of the necessary info to do all this data mining, and the other people ain't selling theirs because that implies things that you can sell to the shadows to increase your profit margin by stealing their customers. So you've got insufficient info for most useful things.

Except, wait, some professional backstabber in your backstabbing organisation - let's call them Revolver Ocelot - has sold the info that you're backstabbing your 0D customers to the shadows and you no longer have even 10% of the information. You have 0%. You can't run a data mining system without people knowing about it somehow, and good info is worth money. Lots of money. Enough to cover their extraction.

So, screwing your customers leads to them abandonning you. So you lost all your profit margin for only a temporary advantage (based entirely in possibly dodgy past data) and you can't even revolving door this system since it needs extraterritoriality to work (meaning that you have to file paperwork which fingers the institution as yours). You've burnt revenue streams for no benefit. Shot yourself in the foot, but Blighty isn't near - Blighty doesn't even exist. There's nothing you can do to persuade the shadows that you're legit the next time. That ship has sailed for good.

The others in the big 10, though, commend you. They certainly like their new customers, and they've learnt an important lesson from your suicide.


Even worse - they could leave behind people whose job is to lie to your data mining system. Making your data mining worse than useless - it's an actual liability.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Ancient History @ May 25 2009, 12:01 AM) *
You deal in something other than electronic currencies. For example, if you bought three pounds of gold and paid for something with that (or a stock certificate, bond, etc.)


That doesn't really solve the counterfeiting issue, as the man with a lead bar and a can of spraypaint can tell you.

The ease of counterfeiting is inversely proportional to the ease of verification. For this reason, the counterfeiting on certified nuyen and other certified electronic currencies is limited to transactions between private individuals. Merchants, even the smallest ones, will have online verification equipment that can instantly identify copied nuyen as being such, in a fashion.

Paper is easier to counterfeit, and half-decent counterfeit paper can be used at small merchants, or busy large ones, as the use of verification systems would be too time-consuming and costly to bother with.

Verifying precious minerals can be even more time consuming, and requires a knowledge of their physical properties and sufficient scientific background to test these properties. Shaving coins and representing alloys as being pure are both very old counterfeiting tricks. Even banks would have trouble dealing with these without dedicated professionals to examine all the precious metals they intake.


In the end, all private currency transfers are a matter of trust.

Certified nuyen requires the least amount of trust, however, because it is the most easily verifiable. In SR4, anyone with a comlink would be able to verify the currency almost instantly.

In the case of electronic currency, such as certified nuyen, it is also possible to provide total anonymity using blind signatures. Assuming that ZOG is the only valid signer, a blind-signature e-coin scheme designed for unlinkability could be made totally anonymous and untracable.

It would be necessary to design the system this way intentionally, which cypherpunks are substantially more likely to do than any major banking group is, but it is possible. Assuming that untracability is the point, ZOG can do it. The technological and mathematical foundations for it to be done exist now. All that is needed is ubiquitous wireless internet access devices and amoral bankers who are willing to use privacy concerns as an excuse to set up a system that allows them to obfuscate their criminals dealings to render the whole thing perfect.

QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ May 25 2009, 03:38 AM) *
As long as I'm allowed to carry around a digital imprint that is "like gold" and transferable in an untraceable way, I can just copy it and double my money.


You can carry around a digital imprint that is "like gold" (and backed with gold) now. It is transferable in untraceable ways now. But you can't copy it and double your money.

The reason is simple. E-coin issuing banks will only accept one copy of a given e-coin. In other words, if more than one copy of any give e-coin gets put into the system, all except for the first are invalidated. Given the ease on online electronic depositing of e-coins, this makes it substantially less effective than using photocopied 20s, which don't go to the bank until the end of the day at the earliest.

As a result, the only transactions that are vulnerable to counterfeiting are those without immediate deposit of the e-coins, generally between private individuals without immediate internet access. Since these sorts of transactions are also vulnerable to photocopying and other forms of counterfeiting, the problem isn't too great.
Chrysalis
I just realized there is a RL comparison: a prepayed credit card. Mastercard, Visa, and AMEX versions are available.

You can also make a numbered account, have a credit card registered, and you are sorted.

Forensic accounting is possible, but then there is the question of amounts. A numbered account can be set up so someone can buy a boat or pay a bomber for bombing an orphanage or even slush fund for the mistress. Money does not describe intent unless the receipts say something like, 16ft. yacht, detonators for explosives, or sex with little Natalie.

Besides once the money jumps to extraterritorial banks, the trail is now only behind a mountain of paperwork.
hobgoblin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bearer_bond
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ May 25 2009, 04:41 AM) *
To begin with, you've got around 10% of the necessary info to do all this data mining, and the other people ain't selling theirs because that implies things that you can sell to the shadows to increase your profit margin by stealing their customers. So you've got insufficient info for most useful things.

Except, wait, some professional backstabber in your backstabbing organisation - let's call them Revolver Ocelot - has sold the info that you're backstabbing your 0D customers to the shadows and you no longer have even 10% of the information. You have 0%. You can't run a data mining system without people knowing about it somehow, and good info is worth money. Lots of money. Enough to cover their extraction.

So, screwing your customers leads to them abandonning you. So you lost all your profit margin for only a temporary advantage (based entirely in possibly dodgy past data) and you can't even revolving door this system since it needs extraterritoriality to work (meaning that you have to file paperwork which fingers the institution as yours). You've burnt revenue streams for no benefit. Shot yourself in the foot, but Blighty isn't near - Blighty doesn't even exist. There's nothing you can do to persuade the shadows that you're legit the next time. That ship has sailed for good.

The others in the big 10, though, commend you. They certainly like their new customers, and they've learnt an important lesson from your suicide.



hhaha. Remember, corporations in this world are seriously summoning spirits from other dimensions that seek to eliminate all human life and illegally enslaving and possessing human hosts with them, while others are illegally selling biological and nuclear weapons to other people. Or buying them. Or both. Man, if that is under that hat, I'm totally sure I can keep the fact that I read my own banking transaction database secret. And operation that needs to be known about by three people - the head of my black ops division, the 2iC and the agent hearder who runs it. Way less than the insect possession farm Ares is running.

There is no transparency in shadowrun. No-one ever defects, presumably because people with actually sensative infomation are banned from communicating with the outside and murdered if they do. Remember, these guys are actually out illegally murdering people every day, and that fact never leaks. Sure they may have extraterrorality, but commissioning a crime on UCAS territory is still a UCAS crime.

But of course all this is predicated on adding rules to the game that don't exist and contradict the setting. If I can strong encrypt my banking infomation, I'll strong encrypt everything and the game breaks. biggrin.gif
Chrysalis
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ May 25 2009, 10:38 AM) *
Yeah. But you're not a career computer criminal. Some of the characters in a Shadowrunner team are. They are getting new identities on a weekly basis, breaking computer systems and encryption for a living, and lying to the system just to stay alive. So the question of "Why don't they fake credit card payments and live like kings?" is a damn good question. And the stuff spewed in Unwired has no answer for that.

Shadowrunners need to be able to get an answer to how the credit system works because committing fraud on that system is their life's work. And the answers given by the book, heck the answers given personally by Ancient History on this thread, are wholly unsatisfactory. As long as I'm allowed to carry around a digital imprint that is "like gold" and transferable in an untraceable way, I can just copy it and double my money. And once that happens, Shadowrunners don't need to run the shadows. And while they are relaxing on the beaches of Ibiza having crazy sex parties, the world financial system will collapse under the crushing weight of an absence of confidence.

-Frank


Hi Frank,

It is one of the pitfalls. Nothing to stop people from going around and mugging people who roughly fit their roughly equivalent biometric data and steal their commlinks and accounts.

Going into banks and taking out large loans are also possible and then transfer the money into a numbered account in Zürich and then disappear. The only trouble is that walking into any branch of those banks will have the bank teller make you wait while they call security. Using SINless with fake SINs is a workaround for the biometric data, just an updated version of a certain type of bank fraud.

Anyways, I would have to study accounting to be able to answer this thread with any further authority. besides the only problem with moving large sums of cash into my account is only with government institutions. The bank does not give a damn where the money comes from as long as it comes.
Cthulhudreams
In the future, the private institutions are the government.

Edit: Heck in the past too, in 1856 a private corporation controlled India and was the government.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Chrysalis @ May 25 2009, 04:23 AM) *
I just realized there is a RL comparison: a prepayed credit card. Mastercard, Visa, and AMEX versions are available.


We need a headbanging against wall emoticon. We really do.

It's different. Prepaid credit cards are tied to accounts, and they are usually in a person's name. The money is in a bank somewhere. It's really a debit card. You add money to your account and it is withdrawn when you use the card. The difference is that it's easier to get a prepaid card than it is to get a normal bank account, and the card generally has higher fees.

Certified credsticks are stored value devices. The money exists on the device in electronic form. There is no attached account.

These things exist today in various forms. Mondex , Visa Cash, Octopus Card*, Dexit, Oyster Card**

If a prepaid card is lost, the bank can issue you a new one and you won't lose anything. If a stored value card is lost, your money is gone, just as if you had lost hard cash. More importantly for Shadowrun, the stored value card is not in anyone's name and not tied to any account. It can be used by anyone at any time, and it can be transferred freely in whole.

Does no one here ride the Hong Kong subway often enough to understand this?


*More Octopus Card links
http://www.octopuscards.com/consumer/en/index.jsp
http://www.hong-kong-travel.org/Octopus.asp

** Sort of. Oyster Card and Onepulse are substantially less anonymous than is usual for stored value cards, having the ability to be registered to a person, and requiring a PIN for some transactions.
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ May 25 2009, 10:45 AM) *
hhaha. Remember, corporations in this world are seriously summoning spirits from other dimensions that seek to eliminate all human life and illegally enslaving and possessing human hosts with them, while others are illegally selling biological and nuclear weapons to other people. Or buying them. Or both. Man, if that is under that hat, I'm totally sure I can keep the fact that I read my own banking transaction database secret. And operation that needs to be known about by three people - the head of my black ops division, the 2iC and the agent hearder who runs it. Way less than the insect possession farm Ares is running.

There is no transparency in shadowrun. No-one ever defects, presumably because people with actually sensative infomation are banned from communicating with the outside and murdered if they do. Remember, these guys are actually out illegally murdering people every day, and that fact never leaks. Sure they may have extraterrorality, but commissioning a crime on UCAS territory is still a UCAS crime.

But of course all this is predicated on adding rules to the game that don't exist and contradict the setting. If I can strong encrypt my banking infomation, I'll strong encrypt everything and the game breaks. biggrin.gif


The thing is that you're assuming that the organisation in general is more competant than the individual. Real life proves the opposite - the organisation is as incompetant as the least experienced person in the team. Meanwhile, a team of 1 can stay utterly silent because he doesn't need to communicate with anyone.

Look at it this way - the people trying to find the information out only have to be lucky enough once. Security has to be lucky all the time. And when you've got 3 people who might mess up, you've got something approaching 3 times the risk of a single person. The info that the Ares 0D system isn't actually 0D is worth a lot of money to Horizon, who also run a 0D system and also all those pretty news outlets. Tarring the name of Ares might be worth a few political points in blackmail, or maybe it might be just worth it to push Ares out of the banking game altogether and take their old customers.

The people who actually find out about the chemical weapons probably aren't the targets, and those who they sell the info to are not, exactly, paragons of civil service, now. Meanwhile, give them good evidence that Ares is stiffing them, personally, and they'll suddenly care. A lot. Like, dropping their Ares accounts and fucking with Ares for kicks and giggles forever. Because you just made it personal.


That whole "no defectors" noise is retarded when one of the default types of mission is the Extraction.


Let me remind you that you can, actually, just rule it's 24hr Strong encryption, which is a non-optional rule from Unwired. It will take someone 24 hours to take the first test. In 24 hours it's extremely possible that it's gone out of accessible range behind other secured systems. Rendering it impossible to crack.

I just said use Dramatic Encryption because it's nicer as a GM to just up and tell your player "no, you can't crack this whole shebang" instead of doing the whole passive-aggressive "sure, you can crack it" bullshit and then tell them that they're down for the next 24 hours waiting for the first interval to pass. That's just being an asshole.
Cthulhudreams
All these versions are different from the cred stick in 1 respect - they close the loop by using the issuing company as a sort of broker.

When you buy visa cash, you get some token, which you can give to visa and then they pay someone else on your behalf. This closes the loop, because it makes it impossible to create money out of thin air - visa has to hand over real cash to the company. So if you haxor the card, and buy a billion ferraris.

However, this makes all the transactions traceable, because one party (Visa/Ares) owns both ends of the transaction. So they can see they issued the card to Joe Blogs onto cred stick C, and then cred stick C was used by someone to buy a ferrari. They can even make sure your transaction to buy a second ferrari is denied.

QUOTE
The value is not physically stored on the card instead, the card number uniquely identifies a record in a central database, where the balance is recorded. These cards are similar to closed system prepaid cards, but are endorsed by a credit card company such as Visa or MasterCard and can, unlike gift cards, be used anywhere a Visa or Mastercard debit cards may be used. They are very similar to a debit card except that they don't require a checking account. However, they do not have many of the benefits of a debit card, such as product or service return/refund assistance. They have been heavily marketed in the United States as a safe and responsible means for parents to give their children some spending power which is why they sometimes are referred to as teen cards. These cards are also sometimes referred to as "open loop" cards.


A cred stick explictly isn't linked back to a database with a recorded balance, which is why the system is stupid. If Visa Cash was like a credstick, I could just by everything with my Visa Cash card, never run out of money and no-one would have any way of knowing that I was defrauding anyone.

QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ May 25 2009, 06:22 AM) *
The thing is that you're assuming that the organisation in general is more competant than the individual. Real life proves the opposite - the organisation is as incompetant as the least experienced person in the team. Meanwhile, a team of 1 can stay utterly silent because he doesn't need to communicate with anyone.

Look at it this way - the people trying to find the information out only have to be lucky enough once. Security has to be lucky all the time. And when you've got 3 people who might mess up, you've got something approaching 3 times the risk of a single person. The info that the Ares 0D system isn't actually 0D is worth a lot of money to Horizon, who also run a 0D system and also all those pretty news outlets. Tarring the name of Ares might be worth a few political points in blackmail, or maybe it might be just worth it to push Ares out of the banking game altogether and take their old customers.


Sure, but the fact that Ares is actually murdering dozens of people with alien spirits who then want to kill everyone else is A) Known by many more people and B) somewhat worse for Ares PR that the abolition of one product line that is already noted as going the way of the dodo.

QUOTE
That whole "no defectors" noise is retarded when one of the default types of mission is the Extraction.
I didn't say no defectors, I just said no defectors who knew anything really important. Like someone knows the full details of Ares wetwork and illegal operations. Is that person going to defect? The information is worth way more than 1 product line - you could destory the entire corporation.

QUOTE
Let me remind you that you can, actually, just rule it's 24hr Strong encryption, which is a non-optional rule from Unwired. It will take someone 24 hours to take the first test. In 24 hours it's extremely possible that it's gone out of accessible range behind other secured systems. Rendering it impossible to crack.a

I just said use Dramatic Encryption because it's nicer as a GM to just up and tell your player "no, you can't crack this whole shebang" instead of doing the whole passive-aggressive "sure, you can crack it" bullshit and then tell them that they're down for the next 24 hours waiting for the first interval to pass. That's just being an asshole.


Why? Agents can crack the system in their spare time. Its not like they get bored. They won;t need a second check.

Anyway the system explictly doesn't work like that, otherwise I couldn't make forgeries of nuyen. Which I can. If they are checking at a central database every time I do anything, I couldn't, because it would be instantly detected.
Cthulhudreams
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